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So I've never played an archer type character in a d20 game, and my primary way to play is PFS at my LGS. I've heard varying opinions about monks, although there seems to be a consensus that Zen Archers are strong, and they aren't as obvious a class as ranger to pick up for my first go around with ranged combat. I've got a decent idea of what I want to do with the character, but as it is my first time building one, I was wondering what you guys though and if you could give me any advice. I've got it planned out to 3 right now. (I have taken some ideas from a particular source if any of this looks familiar. Got to start somewhere.)
LN Garuda-Blooded Aasimar Monk(Zen Archer)
STR-14
DEX-14(+2)=16
CON-12
INT-10
WIS-16(+2)=18
CHA-8
Racial Traits-
Celestial Resistance
Skilled(Acrobatics/Fly)
Spell-Like Ability(See Invisibility)
Traits-
Lessons of Chaldira
Defensive Strategist
Feats-
Bonus-Precise Shot
1-Point Blank Shot
Bonus 2-Dodge
Weapon Focus-Composite Longbow
Point Blank Master
What do you guys think? It doesn't seem that tough to build so far, but I think I might be missing something. I'm planning to play it past 3 if possible, but didn't want to get ahead of myself. Any suggestions or criticism?
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I think I'd get a 14 str over the 14 con. The effects of con can be replicated through feats / favored class bonuses, the extra point of damage with your composite long bow can't be.
I was definitely wondering about that. In PFS I tend to like to be as bulky as I can on the cheap, and the 14 point buy wasn't strenuous on the build, but I suppose once I hit 3-4-5 range the difference in damage might start to show up. Definitely something to be considered, particularly with all good saves to reduce AoE damage and generally be less hindered. Also has a much healthier range than my wizard did starting out.
EDIT: @David: While I see the benefits, this character is not going to be GM'd up at all, and I also would like to keep the Dex at an absolute minimum of 14. I think how it is after the CON/STR swap is looking fairly ideal to me, but if anyone else thinks that the additional +1 is really worth it, I'll consider it. I really would like to keep the DEX in a healthy place though, particularly because I envision this character as more about consistency in fights and dealing damage than about power. While STR does add consistency to damage, not hitting in the first place, or dodging an attack is obviously a lot bigger of a deal than 1 point of damage.
This would probably be better in the PFS forum
Nah, it would most likely get flagged and moved here. This seems to be the go to build PEACH place, even for PFS builds.
one thing ive noticed is all you really need are the 3 levels of zen then going cleric, fighter,rogue,ranger....ect is a pretty good option. we have someone who is 3 zen rest cleric and uses buffs like divine favor to throw down and its good his dex sucks as well but your using your wis instead
How are you taking two religion traits? They are both great traits, but I think you'll have to give one of them up.
Build looks pretty solid. I would consider Deadly Aim at 3rd level. You're taking Dodge...consider going for Crane Wing. You could actually have it at 5th level if you took Crane Style at 3rd, though that feat won't be worth using until you get Wing and means vastly delaying Deadly Aim. The only other big feat to pick up is Clustered Shots; sadly you probably have to wait until level 9 to have the BAB for it (even though it's literally impossible for you to use it and not have full BAB the round you do so, short of intentionally sabotaging yourself and choosing not to flurry), but it is an essential archer feat.
As for when to stay/leave... 3 levels is a decent point to drop out if you want to do something else. I like going 6 levels straight-out for Improved Precise Shot. You probably want to go to 8th level for another flurry attack eventually, but it need not be right away (the attack would have a poor chance of hitting at 8th level anyway). Fighter is a good class to combine with. Just go Weapon Master so you can have Weapon Training (ie, "gloves of dueling requirement") by Monk 6 / Fighter 3. Then go back to monk for 2 more levels, then... whatever you want with the last level, really. Perhaps dip some other front-loaded class you like.
Or just go Monk 12. After 8th level, the class is kind of garbage for class features until 17th level (way past where PFS ends), but Qingong Monk can help with that a little. In PFS, you won't be able to make the full use out of Qingong Monk since that would involve being evil, but still some decent options.
The fighter (archer) archetype is a trap... giving up Weapon Training is the same as giving up your reason for taking the fighter class.
This man speaks the truth!
I think the DPR loss from going Fighter 3 after zen archer 6 is pretty mild; the extra attack isn't going to hit much until your BAB goes up more anyway. The jump of +3 attack and damage (assuming you can get gloves of dueling around the time you hit Monk 6 / Fighter 3, which seems reasonable) easily makes up for it. Keep in mnd at 7th HD, neither build has the extra flurry attack and at 9th is when the +3 kicks in, so it's only actually 8th HD where there's even a negative difference.
Improved Snap Shot just isn't worth it for a Zen Archer. It requires taking a couple literally WORTHLESS feats. And your medium BAB delays when you can get it.
On a less analytical and more emotional note, the fact that the feat line stole zen archer's formerly unique class feature and made full BAB archers better at it *and* was written such that zen archer's reflexive shot doesn't even count for squat towards qualifying is a massive slap in the face and I would never take it as a zen archer out of protest alone, even if it was worth all the wasted feats.
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How are you taking two religion traits? They are both great traits, but I think you'll have to give one of them up.
That was explained to me today as I went to my LGS to talk the build over with my local event coordinator.
It will probably be awhile until the 6th level thing becomes an issue. I was thinking of dipping fighter already, but thanks for the suggestions. I hadn't really found an archetype to go for yet, so this is very helpful.
Does taking Crane 5th/7th make sense? Deadly Aim seems optimal. Thanks for the posts guys, I'll check back later.
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I'll throw in a vouchsafe that remaining single class is 100% viable. I have an 11th level PFS Zen Archer/Qinggong, and I tend to outclass almost every other character at my LGS, to the point that I sometimes intentionally hold back so that I don't entirely steal the spotlight. When fully buffed (barkskin, wand of mage armor, boots of speed, ki point for extra attack) and using PBS and DA (which I literally have never turned off since I got it), I'm at 113 hp, AC 35, CMD 41, Saves +12/12/16, and attacks +19/19/19/19/14/14/9 for 1d8+15 each. If I have to move and only get a single attack I spend ki to use my unarmed damage (enhanced by monk's robe) and vital strike to go +18 for 4d8+15. If things go really bad I can go into gaseous form to escape, or spend a ki point to leap away at +59 to the check. A few levels of fighter may add a bit to offense, but a single class Zen Archer is more than good enough in that arena and phenomenal defensively. Essentially, PFS is built to a certain power level, and once you've exceeded that you're golden; an extra couple +1's isn't going to make that much of a difference.
Just my 2 coppers, another perspective, hope it helps.
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I'm thinking of picking up Honored Fist of the Society as my second trait, along with going to LG and picking up Lessons of Chaldira. Honored Fist was just my backup trait though in case I couldn't take both religion traits, which I now know I cannot. Any other suggestions?
I also want to hear some suggestions for early pickups in terms of gear. I've never built a monk or an archer-type character before, and could use a lot of advice. :P It's PFS so of course the starting wealth is standardized, but past that, into 3-4 when I pick up around 5-6k~, what should I be looking at as immediate pickups?
Efficient quiver, some specialty arrows (smoke, whistling, dye, blunt, durable), and good bow to start with. Use cold iron arrows as your everyday type, it's only an extra 1 gp per bunch (double normal arrows price).
For traits... Dangerously Curious won't help for a long time but around level 10 or so when you can easily make the DC 20 check, you'll love your wand of Gravity Bow. There's a new Faith trait (which is...different from religion traits...somehow) called Fate's Favored that increases any luck bonuses you have by +1. You could get this to get a luck bonus to AC and maybe some other items for other luck bonuses (stone of good luck and luckblade [0 wishes] are probably too expensive for PFS, though). It really comes into its own if you have a racial +1 luck to saves, like Halfling or Half-Orc w/ Sacred tattoo, though.
For items... you want a +1 bow, obviously. The adjustable bow property is cheap (doesn't even cost +1, just a flat ~ 1000 gp, I think) and IMO an occupational necessity even if you don't plan to get temp. str buffs often, just to protect yourself from the attack penalty should you take a tiny amount of str damage/drain and suddenly have a bow w/ higher str rating than you. +2 wisdom headband should also be high priority, and cloak of resistance is so cheap, it's downright irresponsible not to get one early on. :) And of course, the AC boosters...
But yeah, beyond the basics? The bracers of falcon's aim are basically Keen property for super cheap. The boots of feather stepping are also 2000 gp or less, and let you ignore difficult terrain. Since you don't get the speed bonus from boots of striding and springing (same type of bonus as monk's fast movement), those are probably your best footwear option. You can wait a while for a belt of physical stat +2, when you do get it, I would probably go for Str +2.
Efficient quiver, some specialty arrows (smoke, whistling, dye, blunt, durable), and good bow to start with. Use cold iron arrows as your everyday type, it's only an extra 1 gp per bunch (double normal arrows price).
Weapon blanches of the various sorts also. Ghost Salt and Alch. Silver will help to bypass those DR/ early on.
Ok, wow... where to start?
First off, you realize movement only provokes from someone ONCE, no matter how many threatened spaces of theirs you happen to move through, right? Those "6 arrows trying to get there"? Aren't going to be happening. Meanwhile, if you had done Monk 8 / Fighter 4 instead, flurry alone would be 4 arrows, 5 if you burn a ki point, 6 if you were hasted. You're giving up real attacks for fictitious ones.
Second, you realize an optimal archer is full attacking every round because it's simple and he just plain CAN, right? Improved Snap Shot's pre-req, the "range" of Combat Patrol, and the attack bonus on AoOs themselves are all based on BAB. Not flurry BAB. Your regressed by 2 actual BAB. That means you'll threaten less area and you won't even qualify for ISS until 11th level. PFS *ends* at 12th, so that's a pretty long wait for payoff.
And now you're spending even *more* on useless feats. All for a build that won't even come together until 11th level. Hell, you won't even have Combat Patrol until what? 7th level? And when you do, you'll threaten a whopping... 10 or 15 ft? Then with ISS you threaten a whole 25 ft, at most. That sounds super impressive until I realize a level 1 dude with a longspear and enlarge person with zero feat investment who is not throwing away his turn every round just to make some AoOs is threatening 20 ft.
Yeah, that sounds like a good trade. By spending almost half a dozen feats, half of them literally doing nothing for you at all, waiting until near the end of the campaign for it to all even come together, and then sacrificing your turns where you could be full attacking anyway... you get to slightly best the control area of a 1st level character who IS still taking his turns and spent 0 feats.
Sorry to be so sarcastic, but that build is just HORRIBLE.
While Point Blank Master is a great feat and plugs a weakness for archers, it does not mean you should be up on the front lines shooting at people right in the face.
You're an archer. If you can shoot them from 30 ft away, that's better. If you can shoot them from 100 ft away, that's even better. If you can shoot them from 200 ft away, that's better still. The whole point is, you can full attack most of the time, and you can attack from farther away than they can. Don't give up those advantages, ever. Each arrow you put in them before they close to melee is potentially shorting them a round of attacks on you later. Unanswered damage is the best kind of damage.
Crane Wing/Style will not be worth using until you get caught in melee, of course (and w/o Wing, it might never be worth it). But once you do, it will probably prevent more damage to you than the higher DPR (not taking -2 to hit) of not using it could prevent by killing them faster. Probably. I could well be wrong, but +4 AC and 1 ignored hit per round is a lot of added defense.
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First off, you realize movement only provokes from someone ONCE, no matter how many threatened spaces of theirs you happen to move through, right?Do you have a quote for that? Maybe I'm just not thinking but that doesn't sound right to me, leaving a threatened square provokes, and if they do it multiple times each time should provoke.
Perhaps you could try reading the entire Attack of Opportunity section in the CRB, when you next get a chance.
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So I've never played an archer type character in a d20 game, and my primary way to play is PFS at my LGS.
What do you guys think? It doesn't seem that tough to build so far, but I think I might be missing something. I'm planning to play it past 3 if possible, but didn't want to get ahead of myself. Any suggestions or criticism?
What, in the build that you've listed, is something that you feel is a 'must'? Anything?
Consider the following build as an example:
Dwarf
STR 14
INT 07
WIS 19 (17+2racial)
DEX 14
CON 16 (14+2 racial)
CHA 05 (7-2racial)traits: wisdom of the flesh(disable device), kobold's neighbor (+2 perception v traps, +1 disable)
Feats: Deadly aim
The rest are to taste, but I would suggest including skill focus: stealth and hellcat stealth.
Likewise I like the idea of a scout, so I would increase your darkvision to 120feet via a feat.
This takes you to 7th level, at 9th pick up look out, and at 11th improved criticalBonus feat choices: 1st Precise Shot, 2nd Point Blank Shot, 6th Improved Precise Shot, 10th Parting shot.
If you don't plan on being near melee, then you could switch point blank shot for deflect arrows. Likewise you could go with dodge instead of either.
Level as a zen archer/q monk til 6th, then dip into ranger(trapper) for a level, then back to zen archer the rest of the way.
Only dip into ranger if you want to handle disabling traps. By 7th level you will be able to disable 9th level spell traps, which if they come up make for a nice scout ability.
Skills: Perception, Disable Device, and Stealth.
If you don't want to handle traps, then have wisdom in the flesh go towards stealth instead and eschew the ranger level entirely. Use the skill ranks in disable device for hps and skill dips (i.e. sense motive, heal, etc).
-James
I'm not married to my current concept, but while I recognize the utility in this build, is it truly worth it for what appear to be diminished combat abilities? In PFS I've found you mostly get pidgeonholed into combat, although there are stealth opportunities, it doesn't seem that great. Could you explain to me why you think stealth is so worth it in PFS? Without sneak attack damage, I'm not sure if it's worth it to feat into stealth.