I haven't really been playing very much yet, but I am a fast learner and my GM (brother-in-law) is a very experienced and seasoned player and DM/GM so I've actually learned quite a lot for as much experience as I have.
Anyways...I am playing an Archer for the most part, there are few unique "story-line" attributes, and I've been doing some research lately to try and improve my knowledge of Archery feats, items, enchantments, etc. One thing that I have noticed is that Archers are very underpowered, in fact IMO, the most underpowered in the game (excluding maybe bards, never played one nor have had experience with an npc bard). They don't get AoO without a feat, their weapon damage is a measly 1d8+ they provoke AoO if they shoot while engaged, have to always worry about what arrows they'll need for battles.
Does anybody know how to build/use an archer so that he can actually be balanced into the game?
Archers are better than meleers. Check out the builds sticky at the top of this board.
Realization No 1 - Archers are not underpowered.
If you search the boards for an archer build I'm sure one will come up.
Just take standard archery feats. Done. Not underpowered.
archer ranger
This is a guide on how to build and OMG powerful archer ranger. Of all the non spellcasting ways to to do things archery is probably the most powerful.
Grimmy wrote: Just take standard archery feats. Done. Not underpowered. The problem with that is that I have to take so many to compensate for what an archer can't do, an archer is screwed if he gets surrounded, or if anything gets into melee with it, So snap shot is pretty much a necessity for any archer, there is just not enough room to get the necessary feats, at least not early on, which means you get to have a hell of a time.
Its my understanding that archers tend to rely on teammates to cover them and keep melee combat at bay...that said it brings me to the conclusion that melee users overpower archers, then there are wizards/sorcerers especially evokers, they deal buckets of damage at the same range as archers, yet they also have access to touch attacks, which means they hit more often than archers...I don't like how archers have to rely so heavily on a team that's just my opinion
Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Archers can full attack all the time. Archers can cheat for a bonus attack for a lower cost than meleers can.
Attacks of Opportunity are better for the Archer since he can get so much reach with the Snap Shot line, while creatures will rarely provoke in melee because they can do the 5ft step dance.
BigP4nda wrote: Grimmy wrote: Just take standard archery feats. Done. Not underpowered. The problem with that is that I have to take so many to compensate for what an archer can't do, an archer is screwed if he gets surrounded, or if anything gets into melee with it, So snap shot is pretty much a necessity for any archer, there is just not enough room to get the necessary feats, at least not early on, which means you get to have a hell of a time.
it is ar easonable feat tax whe you take into account that the melee guy do not have a feat that allow him to kill that goblin that is 80 ft afar.
BTW, Unless a bunch of enemies just flank you then 5ft away let you avoid Provoking an AoO.
For a clearer and more distinct answer - please provide details of your character build.
Archer in melee - take a 5ft step, continue to unload hurt.
Melee charging into combat = 1 attack
Archer standing still and unloading = full set of attacks with iteratives plus rapid / multi shot.
Petty Alchemy wrote: Archers can full attack all the time. Archers can cheat for a bonus attack for a lower cost than meleers can. Actually I have disagree here, from experience I've found you cannot make full-round attacks all the time, in fact you rarely can unless your GM is kind enough to place you high up where nobody can reach you. The majority of the time I have to use acrobatics to run away from a melee engagement and then attack once, only to be encountered again the next round...
Archers do really well- for themselves. The problems with archers is that they don't bring much to the Team other than DPR.
The tank has DPR but also blocks foes from getting to the squishies.
The Arcanist does battlefield control and buffs the party.
etc.
You can 5 foot step and full attack with no problem. If you are on mount you can move your speed and full attack with no penalty. If you go the fighter path it is not that hard to get stupidly high AC against AoO. Believe me when I say that a wizard cries when he is surrounded, you can draw sword and and not suck.
Yeah, maybe once in a while you get surrounded or backed into a corner... But most of the time when enemies close to melee you just take a 5 -foot step and fire multiple arrows at them.
Mark Sweetman wrote: For a clearer and more distinct answer - please provide details of your character build. I can provide some, most important thing is I'm a Ninja Archer. 8th level, 80something HP, +3 str, +6 dex, +3 con, +4 int, +2 wis, +1 cha. 20 AC BaB +8/+3
Fort +7; Dex +12; Will +3
+4 bow with infinite arrows
+2 Scimitar of Speed
Feats: (that i can think of)
Snap Shot, Rapid Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Great Fortitude, Focus Longbow, Combat reflexes, vanishing trick, ki pool, light steps, ranged dodge+2 (GM came up with it), accuracy
cant think of much else don't have my sheet on me atm
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I think you need a bow and arrows.
Full BAB and feats are probably good too.
Ninja Archer is your problem until you hit level 10 and get the Greater Invisibility trick. Until then you're missing out on a lot of sneak attack and have no perks to make up for it as an archer.
BigP4nda wrote: Grimmy wrote: Just take standard archery feats. Done. Not underpowered. The problem with that is that I have to take so many to compensate for what an archer can't do, an archer is screwed if he gets surrounded, or if anything gets into melee with it, So snap shot is pretty much a necessity for any archer, there is just not enough room to get the necessary feats, at least not early on, which means you get to have a hell of a time.
Its my understanding that archers tend to rely on teammates to cover them and keep melee combat at bay...that said it brings me to the conclusion that melee users overpower archers, then there are wizards/sorcerers especially evokers, they deal buckets of damage at the same range as archers, yet they also have access to touch attacks, which means they hit more often than archers...I don't like how archers have to rely so heavily on a team that's just my opinion
Correct me if I'm wrong please. Everybody has to rely on a team. At least that's my vision of table-top rpg's. I like to see the co-operation part.
Beyond that all I can say is we need more specifics to see where you are running into trouble. The standard archery feats are usually good enough to keep archers slightly ahead of the curve without even trying in the games I've played.
Maybe there is something unusual about your stats or feat selections? Or maybe the rest of your group are super optimized or munchkins or power-gamers? Or it could be your GM is tailoring the opposition to counter your character in every encounter for some reason?
Edit: You must have posted your details while I was typing my reply. I see them now.
How do you have BAB +8/+3 at level 8?
Archery is probably one of the better martial forms of doing damage.
1) Lots of Full Attacks
2) Range
3) Able to deal with flying enemies
4) DR is easier to overcome
Sure,maybe it's only a 1d8, but that 1d8 is easily a 4d8+8 when you full attack at level 6 (provided all three attacks hit. Rapid/manyshot).
With clustered shots, DR is laughable easy. Even then, it's cheap to carry around a few different types of arrows. Blunt, regular, holy, flaming, admantium, cold iron, mithril, etc.
Snap shot chain gets you AoO's with your bow. That's pretty damn nice. There's some really nice spells to buff up with (gravity bow, reduce person)and some pretty neat ranged-weapon only weapon enhancements.
Items? Well there's the Bracers of Falcon's Aim.
You still have 5 ft steps in case enemies do come close, but even then, there's feats so that you can still fire you bow and not provoke AoO's.
Maybe I should include another piece of Information, my GM doesn't have me going against petty goblins and other minor enemys, usually Im going up against other NPCs, Hill Giants, Ogres, Zombie Horde, Creepy alien Creatures that he made up, Iv gone up against a giant machine that was practically invulnerable...basically taking 5 foot step and shooting 3 arrows, which is all I can do, just doesn't cut it and I don't want my GM dumbing things down for me, I wanna meet the challenges
EDIT: Also this is a solo game, my team if there is one consists of NPCs
Aside from Wind-Wall, you should be fine.
Nicos wrote: How do you have BAB +8/+3 at level 8? Sorry +6/+1 I was a fighter before my GM let me change my class
Marthkus wrote: I think you need a bow and arrows.
Full BAB and feats are probably good too.
Honestly this.
BigP4nda wrote: Maybe I should include another piece of Information, my GM doesn't have me going against petty goblins and other minor enemys, usually Im going up against other NPCs, Hill Giants, Ogres, Zombie Horde, Creepy alien Creatures that he made up, Iv gone up against a giant machine that was practically invulnerable...basically taking 5 foot step and shooting 3 arrows, which is all I can do, just doesn't cut it and I don't want my GM dumbing things down for me, I wanna meet the challenges it is weird, as a ninja you should have a great perception and stealth. Your job as a ninja is to make sure the party do not get ambushed, Try to use stealth all the time, try to locate the monsters before they locate you then tell the monster ubication to the party and secure a good position were you can shoot the monsters from afar.
Yeah, I noticed earlier you said it was up to the GM to be a nice guy and place you up someplace high. I thought that sounded a little strange. Why is the GM placing you? If you have good perception and stealth you should have some control over your positioning when you engage the enemy.
The whole point of ranged weapons is to use them from range. Does your GM just plop down mobs of melee monsters surrounding your mini before he tells you to roll initiative or something?
Nicos wrote: it is weird, as a ninja you should have a great perception and stealth. Try to use stealth all the time, try to locate the monsters before they ocate you and then shoot them from afar. Sadly I don't get that luxury, usually when I get into combat, it either starts out in the open, starts WHEN I get there, or just doesn't provide good enough coverage for me to sneak without going invisible, which I am limited to 5 times a day because of my low charisma
Grimmy wrote: Yeah, I noticed earlier you said it was up to the GM to be a nice guy and place you up someplace high. If you have good perception and stealth you should have some control over your positioning when you engage the enemy. The fight that my PC is currently in is probably the first one since I retrained to a ninja that actually has high places or buildings
BigP4nda wrote: Nicos wrote: it is weird, as a ninja you should have a great perception and stealth. Try to use stealth all the time, try to locate the monsters before they ocate you and then shoot them from afar. Sadly I don't get that luxury, usually when I get into combat, it either starts out in the open, starts WHEN I get there, or just doesn't provide good enough coverage for me to sneak without going invisible, which I am limited to 5 times a day because of my low charisma How the mosnters aproch you if there is not cover? you should have located and shooted them long time before they get to melee range.
Ask for perception roll, monsters like giants, ca nnot just appear right next to you.
TBH - you should have stayed a Fighter if you were intent on being a damage dealing Archer.
An 8th Level Fighter with Deadly Aim and Weapon Specialization and Manyshot and still feats to burn would do a lot more damage than you likely do.
Mark Sweetman wrote: TBH - you should have stayed a Fighter if you were intent on being a damage dealing Archer.
An 8th Level Fighter with Deadly Aim and Weapon Specialization and Manyshot and still feats to burn would do a lot more damage than you likely do.
I have a fascination for ninjas, also every role-playing game I play I prefer sneaking around everywhere, the ninja class was just my calling i guess haha. I wanted sneak attack
Nicos wrote: How hte mosnters aproch you if they are not cover? you should have located and shooted long time before they get to melee range.
Ask for perception roll, monsters like giants, ca nnot just appear right next to you.
I just recently retrained to be a ninja, I was just stating the kinds of battles my GM puts me in, the giants and zombies were when I was a fighter, and luckily had a decent team to back me up
BigP4nda wrote: Mark Sweetman wrote: TBH - you should have stayed a Fighter if you were intent on being a damage dealing Archer.
An 8th Level Fighter with Deadly Aim and Weapon Specialization and Manyshot and still feats to burn would do a lot more damage than you likely do.
I have a fascination for ninjas, also every role-playing game I play I prefer sneaking around everywhere, the ninja class was just my calling i guess haha. I wanted sneak attack Sneak attack bows are not really that compatible in PF, that shoudl be the reason you are doing low damage.
Sneak attack with a ranged weapon is significantly harder to get than sneak attack with a melee weapon.... if you're set on being a sneak attacking Ninja - then I'd probably suggest to drop the Archer angle and retrain into a melee specialist.
Nicos wrote: Sneak attack bows are not really that compatible in PF, that shoudl be the reason you are doing low damage. ? I don't follow, how are they not that compatible?
Mark Sweetman wrote: Sneak attack with a ranged weapon is significantly harder to get than sneak attack with a melee weapon.... if you're set on being a sneak attacking Ninja - then I'd probably suggest to drop the Archer angle and retrain into a melee specialist. You can't tell me it wouldn't be awesome to circle your opponent, jumping from tree to tree shooting them with arrows, watching them crumble as they try to find where you are...though I haven't had the chance to do that yet, can't wait til I do
Even if it's harder to get sneak attack with bows... You shouldn't totally suck, and you are playing the concept you want.
I would be more concerned with finding out why combats are starting with melee brutes right on top of you. Like Nicos said, you are a frickin Ninja, you should see them first.
If you are playing solo as you say, then your it is your GM's responsibility to set challenges for you that are appropriate to your power level, regardless of whether you're underpowered, overpowered or reasonably powered. If you find a way to become more optimal (and there's not much more martially optimal than an archery build), your GM will tailor your encounters to that instead.
Essentially, follow the advise in this thread and keep on doing what you're doing.
Best wishes!
I would get Precise Shot too.
Pathfinder archers underpowered?
HA HA HA HA HA!
Heh.
Good one.
BigP4nda wrote: Nicos wrote: Sneak attack bows are not really that compatible in PF, that shoudl be the reason you are doing low damage. ? I don't follow, how are they not that compatible? With a melee weapon you can get your sneak attack damage whenever you have a buddy flanking with you. With a bow, it's tricky to get your sneak attack damage more then once per fight. Once they know you are there, no more sneak attacks.
Of course there are some other tricks but that's the basics of it.
Mathius wrote: archer ranger
This is a guide on how to build and OMG powerful archer ranger. Of all the non spellcasting ways to to do things archery is probably the most powerful.
There is a problem with the validity of this guide, rangers can't get point-blank master...only fighters can get it
EDIT: this actually disappoints me deeply, the prerequisite for it should be point-blank shot, not weapon specialization...
Grimmy wrote: BigP4nda wrote: Nicos wrote: Sneak attack bows are not really that compatible in PF, that shoudl be the reason you are doing low damage. ? I don't follow, how are they not that compatible? With a melee weapon you can get your sneak attack damage whenever you have a buddy flanking with you. With a bow, it's tricky to get your sneak attack damage more then once per fight. Once they know you are there, no more sneak attacks.
Of course there are some other tricks but that's the basics of it. Yea that was an issue I noticed, but you can get ranged flank as a feat
So seems like the best way to be effective with an archer is to get as many of the base archer feats as possible...am i right?
BigP4nda wrote: Sadly I don't get that luxury, usually when I get into combat, it either starts out in the open, starts WHEN I get there, or just doesn't provide good enough coverage for me to sneak without going invisible, which I am limited to 5 times a day because of my low charisma The average encounter distance in plains is 210', so you should have plenty of time to unleash the hurt on any opponents in the open. If your GM is starting the encounter closer than that he's clearly not using these rules, which in that case is what's hamering you.
Stealth and Detection in Plains wrote: In plains terrain, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6 × 40 feet, although the specifics of your map might restrict line of sight. Cover and concealment are not uncommon, so a good place of refuge is often nearby, if not right at hand. Plains Terrain
Seriously, show your GM this thread. There are rules to determine how far apart you are when the fight starts, and who notices who first. It almost sounds like your fights start with a mob on top of you and then you spend the whole fight trying to get far away so you can start shooting at them :)
Sounds kind of backwards!
Sorry if I got the wrong impression, that was just the picture I got in my head reading your posts.
archers are so strong we banned some feats in our game....
clusered shot make it too much.
Grimmy wrote: Seriously, show your GM this thread. There are rules to determine how far apart you are when the fight starts, and who notices who first. The campaign my GM is running leans heavily toward to story-side, its not all adventuring and being it the wild, most of it is being ambushed in a forest, having a wave of nearly 200+ zombies coming your way, cities being sieged, traps being sprung, tournament matches. There were actually more chances for a sneak attack when I was a fighter, but now because of where I am in the story I don't get as many chances, but I think that'll change
BigP4nda wrote: Mathius wrote: archer ranger
This is a guide on how to build and OMG powerful archer ranger. Of all the non spellcasting ways to to do things archery is probably the most powerful.
There is a problem with the validity of this guide, rangers can't get point-blank master...only fighters can get it
EDIT: this actually disappoints me deeply, the prerequisite for it should be point-blank shot, not weapon specialization... Actually, they can, by taking Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Specialization"
PRD wrote: Point Blank Master (Combat)
You are adept at firing ranged weapons in close quarters.
Prerequisite: Weapon Specialization with selected ranged weapon.
Benefit: Choose one type of ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing the selected weapon while threatened.
Normal: Using a ranged weapon while you are threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the archery combat style may select Point Blank Master as a combat style feat, but he must have Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Specialization in the selected weapon.
666bender wrote: archers are so strong we banned some feats in our game....
clusered shot make it too much.
See that doesn't make any sense, clustered shot is overpowered, yet sorcerers are fine blasting away with 10d6+ damage from 100 feet away? THAT WILL ALWAYS HIT, yea cuz that's completely fair...
Graeme wrote: BigP4nda wrote: Mathius wrote: archer ranger
This is a guide on how to build and OMG powerful archer ranger. Of all the non spellcasting ways to to do things archery is probably the most powerful.
There is a problem with the validity of this guide, rangers can't get point-blank master...only fighters can get it
EDIT: this actually disappoints me deeply, the prerequisite for it should be point-blank shot, not weapon specialization... Actually, they can, by taking Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Specialization"
PRD wrote: Point Blank Master (Combat)
You are adept at firing ranged weapons in close quarters.
Prerequisite: Weapon Specialization with selected ranged weapon.
Benefit: Choose one type of ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing the selected weapon while threatened.
Normal: Using a ranged weapon while you are threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the archery combat style may select Point Blank Master as a combat style feat, but he must have Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Specialization in the selected weapon.
Yea I just recently saw that, personally I think its rather unfair to people who want to be different kinds of archers, a fighter and a ranger sharing an exclusive feat just doesn't seem right :\ I think it should be open to any archer
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