Yes, 1 round/level is plenty for most combats anyway. Getting rid of half damage for trip is also reasonable.
It's basically flame blade with a whip, which makes it slightly better. Second-level is perfectly fine, because it requires the sorc in question to get into melee range, which is not good for casters. Plus you shorten the duration to 1 round/level, whereas flame blade is 1 minute/level.
I'd rate it as a moderate-to-strong 2nd level or a weak 3rd level.
Flame Blade is a second level Druid spell and very similar.
Flame Blade is level 2. This appears to be about on par with that. Note it is also 1 min/level in duration.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/flameBlade.html#_flame-blade
He probably just wants something like that but that acts like a whip. However, since he wants to add an ability mod to damage and do maneuvers with it, level 3 is quite likely justified.
There is no ability mod to damage. The ability mod is to attack rolls and CMB checks.
It's still an ability mod in addition to what you normally get.
Using the casting stat mod for attack instead of str/dex seems like enough of a change from flame blade to warrant bumping the spell from 2nd to third level. I'd either let it stay at 1 min/lvl and drop the 1/2 damage on trip, or keep the trip damage, but reduce the duration to 1 round/lvl. As a spell and a touch attack, it should be able to damage creatures regardless of armor.
Using the casting stat mod for attack instead of str/dex seems like enough of a change from flame blade to warrant bumping the spell from 2nd to third level. I'd either let it stay at 1 min/lvl and drop the 1/2 damage on trip, or keep the trip damage, but reduce the duration to 1 round/lvl. As a spell and a touch attack, it should be able to damage creatures regardless of armor.
This plus the whip will give reach. Those things plus the fact that nothing similar exists on the sorcerers list would make me think 3rd level is appropriate. Beware of spamming this in conjunction with spectral hand.
I'd say level 3 since it has reach and clean up the language and give it a small buff.
Fire Whip (Sor/Wiz 3, Magus 3)
School: Evocation
Components: V,S
Range: Self
Duration: 1 min/ lvl
Save: No
Spell Resistance: Yes
Effect: Summons a ribbon of fire in the casters hand, that functions exactly as a whip unless otherwise noted. The caster is considered proficient in all attacks with a Fire Whip, and they are resolved as melee touch attacks dealing 1d8 + 1/2 Caster Level damage. His ability score that determines his spell DCs may be substituted for strength when determining bonus damage and to-hit with this whip. If used to disarm the whip does half damage on the disarm attempt.Since the whip is made of fire it can ignite combustible materials.
Part of me wonders if it shouldn't improve BAB for these attacks, but that's probably worth another spell level.
Kind of feel that Hair Whip would be cooler though.
I would give this spells to Druids and bards (whip proficiency after all) as well. Range should be "personal" and I would cap the 1/2 caster damage at max10.
Looks good to me. I agree that the bard/magus question is worth exploring. However bards who follow sarenrae can take flame blade as a level 2 spell and this spell is definitely superior.
I would say it is very fair as is, without a level bump.
It is worse than the best spells at that level, so seems fine
I'm with Wheezy here. That's a mediocre 2nd level spell, as is.
It would probably be the worst third level spell ever created.
-Cross
It is clearly superior to a already existing 2nd level spell, flame blade. Despite being based on the same damage model, this version also gives the user the ability to disarm and trip with the weapon, and to do damage with those maneuvers. This spell also lets you use your casting mod for attack where flame blade uses STR (yucky for casters) for attack bonus. This spell provides reach. There is also nothing like it on any arcane list (with the exception of Bards who follow Sarenrae). All of these things point me toward 3rd level for this spell.
Third Level spells worse that this one:
Explosive Runes
Sepia Snake Sigil
Arcane Sight
Tongues
Rage
Daylight
Fireball
Lighting Bolt
Illusory Script
Gentle Repose
Vampiric Touch
Beast Shape 1
Secret Page
Thats just the CRB.
As for determining the level, I'd compare it to the Tiefling spell Hellmouth Lash.
I've never dealt with making new spells, but maybe his whip should just be a sort of variant of Hellmouth Lash that conjures up a whip rather than using your own tongue? Maybe limit it to fire damage only, to balance it out with the sudden ability to speak while the spell is in effect?
No, they're not comparable. Hellmouth Lash maxes out at 5d8 at 10th level, for an average of 22.5 damage. This maxes out at 1d8+10 at 20th for an average of 14.5 damage and is already limited to fire damage. At 10th, it's an average of 9.5 damage, 13 points lower than Hellmouth Lash.
Plus, Hellmouth Lash can hurt creatures with armor and natural armor.
Sorry, it seems I didn't read the part about the amount of damage it deals properly. What the player wanted to do just reminded me an awful lot about Hellmouth Lash.
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I'd keep it 2nd level, but not allow the player to make maneuvers with it. The reason flame blade attacks don't add STR to damage is because it's immaterial. If you can trip someone with it, it's not immaterial.
With no maneuvers, the only difference between the whip and scimitar is reach vs a 18-20 threat range. I'd say that's a fair trade, especially if you don't allow the spell to give you whip proficiency.
Doing maneuvers with your casting stat is the whole point of the spell, if i get it right, not the damage.
Drop casting stat to damage is necessary imho or the damage will be too high. Keep it for to hit (and thus also for CMB)
Only think I would do is lower it to second level for magus and remove it from bard list. Bard shouln't get damaging spells or weapon like spells like that save very special cases.
No, they're not comparable. Hellmouth Lash maxes out at 5d8 at 10th level, for an average of 22.5 damage. This maxes out at 1d8+10 at 20th for an average of 14.5 damage and is already limited to fire damage. At 10th, it's an average of 9.5 damage, 13 points lower than Hellmouth Lash.
Plus, Hellmouth Lash can hurt creatures with armor and natural armor.
I would say that since the attack is resolved as a touch attack it is pretty clear that the weapon can harm creatures in armor, however the suggested spell text should clear that up. I am certain it is the intent of the OP. Also, this spell is not instantaneous. At 10th level like you suggest it does 9.5 damage per round as a class with poor bab. At 11th level in the worst bab will allow an iterative attack for an average of 19 damage per round. Average combat being 5 rounds give or take means with one 3rd level spell you could put out 95 damage. Now imagine this in the hands of a Magus. Using spell strike and spell combat to get 3 attacks a round at 8th level for 25.5 damage per round (not including power attack) plus he gets to dump an 8d6 intensified shocking grasp into the first attack.
Yea, third level will be fine.
Third Level spells worse that this one:Explosive Runes
Sepia Snake Sigil
Arcane Sight
Tongues
Rage
Daylight
Fireball
Lighting Bolt
Illusory Script
Gentle Repose
Vampiric Touch
Beast Shape 1
Secret Page1000% of the spells you listed are more useful than this spell. But let's focus on one or two: Why do you think that Fireball or Vampiric Touch, two legitimately okay third level spells, are worse than this spell?
-Cross
Those are clearly among the best on the list. But being able to trip (eating up their action economy) someone at reach with your casting stat and deal damage. Plus they will provoke when then stand because you threaten their square with your fire whip. So Trip + 15 damage (not including power attack) resolved against touch armor. Every round for the entire combat. Just using one spell?
Vampiric touch at level 5 you either provoke to cast or you end your turn next to the person you did it to. This spell neither of those happen. Vampiric touch does 3d6 damage (or 10.5) and you heal the same, yay! This spell lets you trip your opponent, which shuts down his action economy next round and deal 3 damage to him. When he stands back up you get to deal 6 more damage to him for a total of 9. Also, he didn't full round attack your face like the guy who we used vampiric touch on. I would say even at level 5 the trade off between one hit and full round is more than the 10.5 hp you healed (especially if you went first and didn't need to be healed yet)
Then the next round comes. We use vampiric touch again (we prepared it twice right?) or we just keep on using the same spell in our hand as the last round which did slightly less damage, but shut down an enemy and prevented a crapton of damage.
So, the optimization mistake people are making here is to discount action economy.
Let's assume for a moment that this spell is either going to be level 2 or level 3. So a sorceror gets it at level 4, or level 6.
Assume clumsy enemies + 20 casting stat: This is going to hit 80%ish of the time.
So at level 4, your DPR with this is: d8+2 * .8 = 5.2 DPR.
This is an atrocious waste of a 2nd level spell, DPR-wise.
Let's (lolz) see what it does at level 6: d8+3*.8 = 6 DPR.
6 DPR is not a useful thing to do at level 6. You would be vastly better off casting fireball (With your 20 int, about 17 DPR to an area) and then using Ray of Frost for the rest of the combat. Did we mention that frontloaded damage > damage over time?
Hell, as a general rule you're better off casting burning hands then Ray of frost repeatedly.
Remember: The OP is not putting this on the magus spell list. He's not putting it on the druid's spell list. He's putting it on the sorc/wiz spell list, which has the best spells in the game for a reason.
I'd be perfectly comfortable with this as a level 2 spell, and possibly as a level 1 spell if it were de-powered in some way (not a touch attack, or lose the casting stat to attack).
-Cross
Few things:
This spell only has to be cast 1 time, it lasts the entire combat unlike every spell you compared it to.
This spell lets you make trip maneuvers with whip proficiency AND do some small damage AND threaten an AoO when they stand back up.
Magus (while this may or may not be important to the OP) can add sorc/wiz spells to their lists with standard class abilities.
L.3 with the Int/Cha to attack/CMB, L.2 without that and 1 round/level.
School evocation [fire]; Level WHATEVER 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range 0 ft.
Effect whip like flame
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A 12-foot-long, blazing wire of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this whip-like beam as if it were a whip. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage + 1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.
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That's flame blade reworded. You now have a whip which comes with reach and the relevant abilities (tripping) but doesn't have the drawback of being unable to damage armor. And the duration was reduced to make sure it wasn't "strictly better" than flame blade.
The last two posts are both good options for what the op is looking for. I would place the former at 3rd and the latter at 2nd level.
Particular nod to Drachasor for getting all the wording in there so it is clear what can and cannot be done with the spell.
It is not necessary to ensure it isn't strictly better than Flame Blade. In fact, it should be at least a bit better, as it is an arcane damaging spell, rather than a divine damaging spell. Divine damaging spells are usually worse, by design, than arcane spells of the same level, except when they give some special advantage that is appropriate to their divine nature, such as increased damage to undead or unresistible "holy" damage or targeting selectivity vs certain alignments. Were that not the case, there would be no reason someone who wanted to play a blaster would not always play a divine blaster, aside from the RP challenge of playing a weaker alternative.
It is not necessary to ensure it isn't strictly better than Flame Blade. In fact, it should be at least a bit better, as it is an arcane damaging spell, rather than a divine damaging spell. Divine damaging spells are usually worse, by design, than arcane spells of the same level, except when they give some special advantage that is appropriate to their divine nature, such as increased damage to undead or unresistible "holy" damage or targeting selectivity vs certain alignments. Were that not the case, there would be no reason someone who wanted to play a blaster would not always play a divine blaster, aside from the RP challenge of playing a weaker alternative.
It's not "just" a divine spell. It is Druid only and deals elemental damage. Are a number of arcane builds that would love to find a way to get flame blade on their spell lists as written.
It's not "just" a divine spell. It is Druid only and deals elemental damage. Are a number of arcane builds that would love to find a way to get flame blade on their spell lists as written.
Well, aside from Sarenrae worshipping bards and Samsarans with Mystic Past Life, there's always a 1-level dip into Magaambyan Arcanist, which would work for lots of different builds.
That works for the bard. Samsaran would still have to be a divine caster. What is magaambian arcanist? I can't find it. The only class I am aware of that works like that is arcane savant, which would require a two level dip and would increase the spell level by 1.
That works for the bard. Samsaran would still have to be a divine caster. What is magaambian arcanist? I can't find it. The only class I am aware of that works like that is arcane savant, which would require a two level dip and would increase the spell level by 1.
You are quite right about the Samsaran thing. I have never played one, and forgot that detail.
The Magaambyan Arcanist is a prestige class found in Paths of Prestige, a Pathfinder Campaign Setting Supplement put out by Paizo. They've got several very nice abilities and get full spellcasting. It's a good PrC (and is also restricted to good-aligned characters). At first level they get an ability called Halcyon Magic.
Halcyon Magic (Su):
At each class level, a Magaambyan arcanist chooses a spell from the druid spell list and treats it as if it were on the spell list of one of her arcane spellcasting classes. A Magaambyan arcanist must choose a druid spell at least two levels lower than the highest-level spell she can currently cast. The spell’s type becomes arcane and its save DC functions as normal for the arcane spellcasting class list she adds it to. The Magaambyan arcanist automatically learns this spell and adds it to her spellbook (or familiar if she is a witch).
Casting stat to damage is too much, especially with caster level to CMB. This one spell would make casters the best trippers in the game.
That works for the bard. Samsaran would still have to be a divine caster. What is magaambian arcanist? I can't find it. The only class I am aware of that works like that is arcane savant, which would require a two level dip and would increase the spell level by 1.You are quite right about the Samsaran thing. I have never played one, and forgot that detail.
The Magaambyan Arcanist is a prestige class found in Paths of Prestige, a Pathfinder Campaign Setting Supplement put out by Paizo. They've got several very nice abilities and get full spellcasting. It's a good PrC (and is also restricted to good-aligned characters). At first level they get an ability called Halcyon Magic.
Halcyon Magic (Su):
At each class level, a Magaambyan arcanist chooses a spell from the druid spell list and treats it as if it were on the spell list of one of her arcane spellcasting classes. A Magaambyan arcanist must choose a druid spell at least two levels lower than the highest-level spell she can currently cast. The spell’s type becomes arcane and its save DC functions as normal for the arcane spellcasting class list she adds it to. The Magaambyan arcanist automatically learns this spell and adds it to her spellbook (or familiar if she is a witch).
How does that interact with spontaneous casters spells known? Does it take a place or is it a bonus? That is a viable option but for the build that really gets oomph out of it, the dervish magus, it would be 13th level before he could get that on line. Though at 13th level he would be a badass.
How does that interact with spontaneous casters spells known? Does it take a place or is it a bonus? That is a viable option but for the build that really gets oomph out of it, the dervish magus, it would be 13th level before he could get that on line. Though at 13th level he would be a badass.That works for the bard. Samsaran would still have to be a divine caster. What is magaambian arcanist? I can't find it. The only class I am aware of that works like that is arcane savant, which would require a two level dip and would increase the spell level by 1.You are quite right about the Samsaran thing. I have never played one, and forgot that detail.
The Magaambyan Arcanist is a prestige class found in Paths of Prestige, a Pathfinder Campaign Setting Supplement put out by Paizo. They've got several very nice abilities and get full spellcasting. It's a good PrC (and is also restricted to good-aligned characters). At first level they get an ability called Halcyon Magic.
Halcyon Magic (Su):
At each class level, a Magaambyan arcanist chooses a spell from the druid spell list and treats it as if it were on the spell list of one of her arcane spellcasting classes. A Magaambyan arcanist must choose a druid spell at least two levels lower than the highest-level spell she can currently cast. The spell’s type becomes arcane and its save DC functions as normal for the arcane spellcasting class list she adds it to. The Magaambyan arcanist automatically learns this spell and adds it to her spellbook (or familiar if she is a witch).
Well, my face is sorta red right now. It would work for a magus, but wouldn't work for sorcerers. One of the prereqs is the ability to prepare 3rd level arcane spells.
No worries. The boards have been crazy all week. We are all bound to miss something, god knows I have.
Poor Op, it looks like this thread exploded into an argument that has nothing to do with your spell! I apologize on behalf of everyone ever. T_T
That said, I think modelling it after flame whip was a good suggestion. Compared to your final draft, I would add the following:
1) A line that states that the whip can deal lethal damage. An easy way to do this is to specify that the spell creates a +1 deadly flaming whip. It is worth noting that icicle dagger does not upgrade into a +1 weapon until 6th level (or when you get 3rd level spells) and it does not gain the returning property until 11th level, making it effectively a +2 weapon. You can argue both ways about keeping the spell as a result.
I would say that the whip needs to be able to deal lethal damage and it needs to be able to deal fire damage in order for this spell to thematically and mechanically make sense. This would be my take:
School evocation [fire]; Level bard 2, druid 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F/DF (a masterwork whip worth 301 gp)
Range 0 ft.
Effect whip-like beam
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
You engulf the spell's focus in a dazzling coat of flames, creating a deadly weapon. Treat the spell's focus as a +1 deadly whip, allowing it to deal lethal damage. You are proficient with this weapon even if you do not possess Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip). The spiraling flames allow the whip to damage foes with an armor bonus of +1 or greater or a natural armor bonus of +3 or greater. In addition, your whip deals an additional 1 point of fire damage per two caster levels (maximum +10). A flame whip can ignite combustible material such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.
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Poor Op, it looks like this thread exploded into an argument that has nothing to do with your spell! I apologize on behalf of everyone ever. T_T
That said, I think modelling it after flame whip was a good suggestion. Compared to your final draft, I would add the following:
1) A line that states that the whip can deal lethal damage. An easy way to do this is to specify that the spell creates a +1 deadly flaming whip. It is worth noting that icicle dagger does not upgrade into a +1 weapon until 6th level (or when you get 3rd level spells) and it does not gain the returning property until 11th level, making it effectively a +2 weapon. You can argue both ways about keeping the spell as a result.
I would say that the whip needs to be able to deal lethal damage and it needs to be able to deal fire damage in order for this spell to thematically and mechanically make sense. This would be my take:
School evocation [fire]; Level bard 2, druid 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F/DF (a masterwork whip worth 301 gp)
Range 0 ft.
Effect whip-like beam
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
You engulf the spell's focus in a dazzling coat of flames, creating a deadly weapon. Treat the spell's focus as a +1 deadly whip, allowing it to deal lethal damage. You are proficient with this weapon even if you do not possess Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip). The spiraling flames allow the whip to damage foes with an armor bonus of +1 or greater or a natural armor bonus of +3 or greater. In addition, your whip deals an additional 1 point of fire damage per two caster levels (maximum +10). A flame whip can ignite combustible material such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.
I like this one.
I don't think it is very good. You might use it for a couple levels if you are a whip build, but pretty soon an actual magic whip is going to be flat-out better and available all the time. No touch attack either.
So overall that's a REALLY specialized spell.
You expect to use a second-level spell forever?
The way I see it, the spell conjures a free 8,000 gp item for you and gives you the proficiency to use it. On top of that, it adds bonus fire damage to your whip's attacks, making it surprisingly effective for a Weapon Finesse build, as those characters do not normally possess a astronomically high Strength score to begin with.
The spell is plenty good at what it was designed to do, create a flaming whip that a spellcaster can use without needing Exotic Weapon Proficiency. 2nd-Level isn't the gamechanger level for spells, that's usually 3rd level. I don't think that Sorcerers/Wizards are going to want this spell any more then they'd want icicle dagger, and that's okay. Not every spell needs to be an acid arrow or a scorching ray. If they all were, then that would be a textbook example of power creep, which is what 90% of the offerings in this thread are.
That said, I could see adding level enhancements in the same manner was icicle dagger, maybe by improving the whip to a flaming weapon at caster level 10 and a +2 weapon at caster level 15. Or something similar.
Besides, the idea of a "touch attack beam of fire" that can trip people is silly. You can hurt people well enough with a spell like flame blade, but it is a beam of fire. Ergo, it has no corporeal form, which is why it is a touch attack and not a melee attack. How the heck do you trip someone with an intangible material like fire? I could see using a concussive explosion to trip / disarm people, but that would be instantaneous and not a whip you can actually hold in your hand. If you want to be able to trip and disarm someone with your flame whip, it needs to be tangible, hence the fluff that you use a masterwork whip as a focus. And if you have be a touch attack instead of a whip, then you are left with a weaker, reach weapon version of a druid's flame blade.