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So I was gluing together some maps today, just to get a feel for some things. What I used were the Iobaria, Brevoy, and River Kingdoms maps. With a little creative painting I manged to get a decent end-result (a couple of rivers were a bit off, etc). What I noticed is that Iobaria stretches the map waaaay east.
So I decided to take all of that and paste it onto the Golarion (Inner Sea) Campaign Map, and then take that and paste it over the (icky) world map (which I realize isn't accurate - its merely representational).
So after a bit more painting - large color-swaths where the terrain was missing, over the underlying world map - I notice there is a LOT of land to the East of Taldor - why have they never expanded in that direction? Whats over there, between them and the Castrovin Sea? There is approximately 700+ miles until you reach water, which is nearly double the width of Taldor itself.
I assume that there is much desert to the East of Qadira, but it looks like rolling plains east of Taldor. You would think Qadira would have tried to expand into that area as well, if not for the territory, then just for its strategic value when they are fighting Taldor.
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I believe those are the Windswept Wastes, but I may be mistaken (Kelesh/Casmaron's geography isn't very defined).
If so, the cult of Namzaruum (and the local steppe nomads) may discourage expansion into the region.
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Note that Qadira is just the westernmost province of the much larger Padishah Empire of Kelesh, so the reason Qadira, at least, hasn't expanded eastward is that that territory is already part of the empire that Qadira belongs to as well.
I understand that the Padisha Empire is east of Qadira, and therefor all of that desert(?) to the east of them is probably spoken-for (if not actually occupied).
I was talking about the land NE of Qadira, which looks more hospitable (from what little we can see). That would be the land directly east of Taldor, up until it reaches the Castrovin Sea.
'Barbarian Tribes' doesn't really cut it for me - not with Taldor's expansionist policies in the past (where they easily 'put down' other barbarian groups and took their land, a'la Rome). There has to be something there that scares the heck out of everybody, me thinks.
A confederacy of centaur warlords? (who are happy to fight each other, unless some bigger threat enters the area). A 'collective' of Thri-Kreen? Some sort of aberration-ruled imperium? Warring Genies and Rakshasa? Or is it just a 'feeding grounds' for a few hundred dragons?
Will we ever know?
That part of the world has a long history of inconvenient & magic resistant plagues popping up at random & all but wiping civilizations out.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to send folks out there. Well, not if I was interested in trading with them afterwards...
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That part of the world has a long history of inconvenient & magic resistant plagues popping up at random & all but wiping civilizations out.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to send folks out there. Well, not if I was interested in trading with them afterwards...
I'm assuming you're referring to Iobaria. According to the gazetteer of that country in The Varnhold Vanishing, Iobaria doesn't extend much further south than the latitude of Mivon or Riddleport. It's eastern boundary follows the crest of the Icerime Peaks, the crest of the Hills of Nomen, and the channel of the Pharrus River until that river drains into the Castrovin Sea at Vladmirr. Its southern border is then defined by the northern shore of the Castrovin Sea.
Meanwhile Qadira's northern border according to the Inner Sea World Guide basically follows the parallel east from the mouth of the River Ladan, and if it deviates in any direction, it hews south.
I believe Markus' problem is that there looks to be an expanse of undetailed land in between Iobaria and Qadira, east of most of the River Kingdoms, Galt, and especially Taldor. His problem is further compounded by its being geographically implausible to extend Iobara south over the Nomen Hills, and it is also implausible that Kelesh has Satrapies north of Qadira (which is itself described as if it is a frontier). There are various ways around this, including situating the Castrovin Sea just off the edge of the Inner Sea Region map, postulating the existence of another state that could defend itself from the not-all-that-outward-looking River Kingdoms, Galt, and Taldor*, or extending Iobaria south and Qadira north despite what earlier products have said/hinted.
*"Inward" in Taldor would refer to the boundaries of their old empire. So they would look with interest at Cheliax, Isger, or Andoran, but not really care much about Nidal, Korvosa, or Molthune.
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My impression, after looking further, is that this is the region where Ninshabur was, or at least its hinterlands. It's a part of the Windswept Wastes, but this is more specific.
It's heavy haunted, inhabited by savage nomads, and dotted with monster-infested ruins.
Not a simple conquest.
By this fan-made map (so YMMV) I found, the area in question is the Windswept Wastes surrounding the Pit of Gormuz.
http://crunkrogers.deviantart.com/art/Fan-made-Golarion-map-337812221
Looks like a good place to drop Hollowfaust to me. :)
Thats WAY too much desert, methinks, and that enormous mountain range doesn't exist on canon maps (not saying it couldn't exist, but its not shown anywhere so why assume there is one?)
Zimmerwald1915 has the right of it - there appears to be a large, fairly fertile region directly east of the main campaign area, south of Iobaria but north of Padisha.
I suppose there could be REALLY tough barbarians that way, a'la RW Mongols or the Aeil from WoT, but that just makes them all the more interesting and something I want to know about. It seems kinda strange that that one strip of land west of the Castrovin Sea is part of Casmaron and not part of Avistan.
Here is a greatly reduced mock-up I did. Granted, the 'world map' doesn't really lineup with anything that well, but this is about the best I could come up with (and I have LOTS of experience with maps). Even if the desert areas extended much further north (and I don't see why they would, given the existing geography and taking into account for normal weather patterns), that still leaves quite a bit of room east of Galt. And speaking of Galt, there seems to be a major influx of Galtans into the Iobaria region, so I would have to assume that they are in that area we have no details about (unless they are going via the River Kingdoms and Brevoy, but that seems to be a round-about way, and the Iobaria Gazeteer makes it appear that Galtans in Iobaria are no big deal these days.
So either Galt has a 'frontier' to the east (and why wouldn't they want a port on the Castrovin Sea?), or Iobaria does extend south of the Nomen Hills (southern Iobaria? Which hasn't been annexed by Galt yet because Galt can't get its $@%# together?) And even if Galt isn't in aposition to expand ATM, why wouldn't Taldor? How is it they never made it to the Castrovin sea?
Inquiring minds want to know. :)
My impression, after looking further, is that this is the region where Ninshabur was, or at least its hinterlands. It's a part of the Windswept Wastes, but this is more specific.
It's heavy haunted, inhabited by savage nomads, and dotted with monster-infested ruins.
Not a simple conquest.
and all of that makes it a region ripe for exploration.
Perhaps its being left blank for 'DM development'?
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My impression, after looking further, is that this is the region where Ninshabur was, or at least its hinterlands. It's a part of the Windswept Wastes, but this is more specific.
It's heavy haunted, inhabited by savage nomads, and dotted with monster-infested ruins.
Not a simple conquest.
and all of that makes it a region ripe for exploration.
Perhaps its being left blank for 'DM development'?
We will probably find out the details in some sort of Casmaron book in the Ninshabur/Windswept Wastes chapter.
There is a very briefly mentioned "Casmar" culture mentioned in the Iobaria chapter in Kingmaker that might logically be located there, if only because the name of the Continent (like Asia was by the Greeks) might be named from one of the peoples closest to Avistan.
There has to be a good reason, but methinks that the reasons are not yet fully formed. At one point a bunch of posters posited it as a good place for Slumbering Tsar from FGG.
Taldor simply seems a bit overstretched these days. Perhaps at one point an army did attempt a conquest of the region and failed to keep it? (Akin to Roman Mesopotamia). The analogous regions in our world seem to be Armenia, Kurdistan, the Caucausus, and the Ukrainian steppes, all of which resisted conquest for cultural and geographic reasons. There is probably a mountain range in there somewhere.
That area south of Iobaria and east of the River Kingdoms seems to be most non-human, btw.
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Well I don't know if there is any thing official published there but here is a Fan made world map that I am using until Paizo publishes materiel. I kinda like this map.
I hope this helps. It appears the authors of this map put the pit of gormuz between taldor and the Castroval Sea.
Well Enjoy I hope this helps.
Well I don't know if there is any thing official published there but here is a Fan made world map that I am using until Paizo publishes materiel. I kinda like this map.
I hope this helps. It appears the authors of this map put the pit of gormuz between taldor and the Castroval Sea.
Well Enjoy I hope this helps.
That looks familiar.... :P
Still not loving that desert there. I also think the Castrovin Sea needs to be much bigger.
'Windswept Wastes' sounds more like steppes then a true desert to me (I liken it to the 'Endless Wastes' of FR). The Taldor map shows it as "The Whistling Plains".
After reading up on the Pit of Gormuz, I can see it as a region with 'bestial' leanings - perhaps some form of primitive (cave?) centaur, or even a mongol-like centaur group (combining the barbarian descriptor with the monstrous one), Minotaur tribes, Giant Owlbears and Perytons, etc... kind of a 'Beastlands' on earth thing ("chaos and nature run amok"). I'd even make the humans like the Shifters from Eberron, or the Lionmen from Monte Cook's setting (everything there gets touched by a form of primitiveness). If you borrow from the RW Persia region, You have Gilgamesh's friend Enkidu - a Beastman; I'd personally run with that (a highly Golarionized version, of course). You could have the Nishabur king allying with followers of Rovagug (the Enkidu-like character) leading to their eventual downfall. Getting inspired by Sumerian lore is one thing, but avoid direct derivations (like they did in FR).
It would be interesting to have Nishabur/that area get its own treatment, similar to how Iobaria did. Looking at the existing mountains, it does make some sense, but the Porthmos Gap either has a string of fortifications (or even a wall... which would be sorta cool), or there is something else there making it fairly impassable (a swamp, or some such?) How else would Taldor keep out that which even it is afraid of? Stavian's Hold is a good start - build off of that (the wall - once tall and strong - could have fallen in disrepair in recent years, maybe even be a ruin is some places. That could make for an interesting series of adventures right there - the 'monstrous hordes' may be rising again, and have noted Taldor's decline.
Don't forget that the ruins of ancient Kaskkari are also said to reside in that region near/around Ninshabur and the Windswept Wastes.
I'm not sure there has been anything said about Kaskkari other than its (all too brief) throwaway mention in the Inner Sea World Guide.
EDIT: And Iblydos, too, IIRC. Isn't Iblydos and its cyclopean backstory located in that region? (I have to go dig out my copy of Varnhold Vanishing now...)
Perhaps one or more of those former kingdoms isn't quite as vanished as we have been led to believe. Maybe there are "New" kingdoms in their places, or even just a series of city-states (the City-States of Iblydos sounds like it could have a familiar RW analogous ring to it) that are resistant to Taldor and Qadiran encroachment.
EDIT: And Iblydos, too, IIRC. Isn't Iblydos and its cyclopean backstory located in that region? (I have to go dig out my copy of Varnhold Vanishing now...)
Perhaps one or more of those former kingdoms isn't quite as vanished as we have been led to believe. Maybe there are "New" kingdoms in their places, or even just a series of city-states (the City-States of Iblydos sounds like it could have a familiar RW analogous ring to it) that are resistant to Taldor and Qadiran encroachment.
Iblydos is an island "nation" to the south of Casmaron (or there abouts), last time I heard.
Also , Ninshabur supposedly doesn't exist anymore -- at least not since the Tarrasque woke up all grumpy at all the noise being made 'round Daddy RovaG's digs...
However, your Sumerian tidbits would certainly be a nice addition to the somewhat scant information we have on Ninshabur's history... :)
Carry on!
-- C.
Iblydos is an island "nation" to the south of Casmaron (or there abouts), last time I heard.
(Googles Iblydos and checks more than the Golariopedia/Pathfinderwikia entry)
Ah! So it is!
(Which would actually make a bit of sense, given that it's the Greek-analogue. I think I misread Casmaron as Castrovin. :p)
No worries! ^^
-- C.
I wonder how the developers will handle Casmaron when they one day get around to statting it up. As the Padisha Empire holds most of the terrain, one would think that Casmaron might lack the variety of nations that Avistan/Garund/Tian Xia have.
Also (at MarkusTay), Ninshabur supposedly doesn't exist anymore -- at least not since the Tarrasque woke up all grumpy at all the noise being made 'round Daddy RovaG's digs...
However, your Sumerian tidbits would certainly be a nice addition to the somewhat scant information we have on Ninshabur's history... :)Carry on!
Thats what I was going for - I realize Nishabur isn't around anymore, I was just trying to back-fill in a little (non-)canon history.
I picture a powerful Kingdom/empire that had at some point had trouble against the Iobarians to the north (or even the declining cyclopses, but that could be a bit too far back). The conflict could have even been with Taldor and/or Qadira, depending upon how far back Nishabur goes (I'm not that familiar with the Golarion Timeline). Also within that kingdom (in the frontier regions around it) I could see a Rovagug cult blossoming - a cult that embraces the bestial aspects of nature and even embodies them (becoming hybrids either magically or through breeding). Their leader - our 'Enkidu' wannabe - is approached by the King of Nishabur (or the other way around) and a deal is struck - he will use his 'beastmen' to fight the enemy, if the cult is allowed to operate openly within the kingdom. Its one of those deals where the 'cure' proves worse then the illness. In time, the Nishabur civilization collapses in on itself.
Like I said, just an interesting way to imagine how things 'went down' is all. Outsiders (Galt, Brevoy, Taldor, even Qadira) may view the entire region as 'cursed' - just being there makes folks 'devolve'(which may or may not be true).
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I wonder how the developers will handle Casmaron when they one day get around to statting it up. As the Padisha Empire holds most of the terrain, one would think that Casmaron might lack the variety of nations that Avistan/Garund/Tian Xia have.
Qadira already gets its own entry in the Inner Sea World Guide separate from Kelesh. I wouldn't be at all surprised if each Satrapy gets the same sort of treatment. Come to think of it, this might speak to how centralized Kelesh really is. Could it be more like the Abbasid Caliphate, where the nominal ruler of the whole Empire really only ruled a small area around the capital, than the much more centralized and somewhat contemporaneous Song Empire?
Thats how I am picturing Kelesh - more like a single, small kingdom with lots of other 'kingdoms' (satrapies) just paying tribute (and lip-service).
In fact, a reworked Al-Qadim (FR's Zakhara) would work for Kelesh - it was one of the better done derivations. It had that sort of setup as well - everyone answered to the Grand Caliph... but not really.
For the 'barbarians' in the Windswept Wastes, I'd love to see something really original (rather then repainted Mongols a'la FR's Tuigan).
Considering the rest of the geography and derivations, Nishabur should have been something along the lines of an indo-European culture. Using the Aryans, maybe give the human inhabitants a bit of a 'Rohan' vibe (saying they were the earliest human users of cavalry).
Hmmmmm... combine that with what I said about 'devolved beastmen' (Hybrids), and maybe we have our answer to "where do (Goalrion) Centaurs come from?" Maybe the feral centaur tribes ARE the Nishaburi.
I wonder how the developers will handle Casmaron when they one day get around to statting it up. As the Padisha Empire holds most of the terrain, one would think that Casmaron might lack the variety of nations that Avistan/Garund/Tian Xia have.
Not necessarily. A) It's RW "analogue" isn't exactly uniform- there are and were a wide variety of regions and nationalities to be found, B) this is fantasy, after all, and there's no reason to expect that the developers wouldn't/couldn't throw in some different sorts of nations just for fun and to try new things out.
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I wonder how the developers will handle Casmaron when they one day get around to statting it up. As the Padisha Empire holds most of the terrain, one would think that Casmaron might lack the variety of nations that Avistan/Garund/Tian Xia have.Not necessarily. A) It's RW "analogue" isn't exactly uniform- there are and were a wide variety of regions and nationalities to be found, B) this is fantasy, after all, and there's no reason to expect that the developers wouldn't/couldn't throw in some different sorts of nations just for fun and to try new things out.
The RW Persian Empire - it's closest analogue - had Armenians, Persians, Kurds, Indians, Tocharians, Greeks, Scythians, Egyptians, Arabs, Medians, Babylonians, etc, united under a single emperor. But each of these peoples had their own culture, religion, and separate tribal identity. I think the same could be true of Casmaron, even if a quarter of it is a single empire.
PS. The Centaurs and the Amazons are probably both linked to the Greek conception of the Scythians = archetypical nomads, yet still unfamiliar to modern readers. I like how the Noman tribe of Centaurs combined the two concepts.
Precisely, Jeff- not to mention that there are several different eras one could pull from for any and all of those nationalities to use as a basis for beginning to create a Golarion version of them (which isn't to suggest that it would be a cut and paste of any; one thing Golarion has done very well is to keep rather unique pastiches of RW nations without copying them precisely).
So, I think it's pretty safe to say that Casmaron could have just as broad and eclectic a mix of locales as the Inner Sea region and northern Garund currently have. (Or Tian-Xia, for that matter.)
Yes, and non-human nations are great. We see that in all three continents already detailed (Orc nation, Hobgoblin nation, and Gorilla-people). I'd like to see more then one in that area, because it exemplifies 'diversity'. Even if we just use some of the core races, give them some sort of regional twist.
Derivations are fine, so long as they are more like 'homages' then just cheesy name-swaps for RW cultures and nations (one of the very few things I absolutely hated about FR).
The other continents are also ripe for the core group that does not have a 'homeland' - halflings. Based on RW species, 'small' versions of creatures tend to dwell in areas with limited resources (deserts, steppes, etc) while larger ones tend to dwell in areas of abundance (plains, temperate woodlands, etc). That means Halflings should have evolved in a region having the same kinds of conditions as much of Casmaron has. I am picturing a Bedouin-like Halfling culture, with maybe just a dollop of Egyptian-like flavor (so Middle-eastern, but with a fantasy/Golarion twist). Picture tiny dervish that can 'disappear' into the sand and come up behind you (like desert ninjas... who doesn't love ninjas?)
I like how the Noman tribe of Centaurs combined the two concepts.
I also love where they are going with that (as you can tell by my above posts), but I am really disliking the 'Noman' monicker... I hope thats just a human affectation (in other words, they would MOST CERTAINLY call themselves something else).
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For a more urban twist, this article is on the Banu Sasan.
The Banu Sasan, literally, the 'the Sassanids' or descendants of the last pre-Islamic Persian dynasty, were a huge thieves guild, pretty much the medieval Islamic mafia. They - like Elizabethan criminals - had a lengthly argot, secret techniques, and a thriving demi-monde.
In Golarion - perhaps the Kelesh version of the Sczarni.
Well, we'll see what the devs come up with when the time for detailing Casmaron comes up. :)
I like the Banu Sasan lore - maybe apply that to some native Sandhin (desert halflings) that have 'gone urban'. The organization would shoe-horn well with my picturing them as ninja-like dervishes. Throw in a little 'Ḥashshāshīn' flavor as well, but maybe have them be 'Peshshāshīns'. :D
The wild, desert tribes I have worked out in my head, right down to local flora and fauna. I should really try my hand at an article.