PVP and Settlement Politics Pre EE and Early EE (0-3 months)

I still want to give it a try I really do. I love the whole Pathfinder world...

I just wish that some of these people would be more able to see it from my point of view.

I can not hold a pencil in my left hand for more the 90 seconds with out being in enough pain to let go of it.

To give a more in depth description of my injury...I pretty much disintegrated the bones in my left wrist, they were vacuumed out and replaced with a single metal block 2 rods go up my left forearm as both bones were broken in no less than 4 places the left upper arm broken in 2 places, left shoulder blade split in three (now held together with metal plates)I have no feeling in my fingers with the exception of the thumb and index finger, the loss of sensory ability goes all the way to the elbow which was dislocated (which keeps me from being able to straighten my arm, the block in my wrist keeps me from bending my hand at the wrist.

I had to teach myself how to use my right hand as I was left handed, which sucks as I am an artist and had to start over literally.

I never once gave up, but I have learned I have limitations to what I can do.

Xeen wrote:

Im not angry at all.

WoW... lol, not a PVP game.

Sure there is some competition, but the biggest difference is... Players will be crafting everything, which makes it PVP in PFO. You are required to flag for combat in WoW. PFO will not require a flag. etc etc

Nihimon, people like Realmwalker cannot handle it when they lose in combat. This is exactly what Ryan has said will not be a game for them. Trust me, I have a friend that whines and cries while playing a warzone in SWTOR... You lose nothing in a warzone... But people cannot handle losing.

This is exactly why they want to limit the numbers at launch and build up slowly from there. People in general will not be able to handle an Open World Sandbox PVP game.

It is people like you that make the whole PVP aspect of the game unappealing. You like PVP and anyone that does not can go to hell in your point of view.

I don't mind getting my ass handed to to me, it happens a lot. I have less than 15% mobility in my left hand it makes competitive PVP non workable for me. Not an excuse just a plain simple fact for me.

I have not whined at all, I have just voiced some concerns that were important to me...I wanted to give this game the benefit of the doubt and at least try but seeing posts like this from Xeen and others seem to point me in the direction of not investing money in this game.

Wow, you have posted several times since I made that.

If I remember right, you said you wanted a PVE server or it was a deal breaker.

Anyway, do as you will.

If you do not like PVP, I dont care. But when you say things like... PVE server or no way... Then you have made up your mind.

Now go and read the way Diella brought things up.

You made it a "this or else" type of thing... He said he has concerns and wishes to learn...

Now, how would you respond in a PVP thread that had already turned into a war?

@Realmwalker
If the game lives up to its potential there will be many ways to contribute without fighting.

You could make deal with the dominant outlaw force thus gaining allies and protection from the both side of the law.( and probably nice profit)

Or you could forego combat and max your exploration/tracking skills in order to lead your armed friends to the bandit hideouts.

Those are just two examples ,they are many more.
The hope is that the game will require you to use your head to advance , not your manual dexterity.

@Realmwalker

If the game lives up to its potential there will be many ways to contribute without fighting.

You could make deal with the dominant outlaw force thus gaining allies and protection from the both side of the law.( and probably nice profit)

Or you could forego combat and max your exploration/tracking skills in order to lead your armed friends to the bandit hideouts.

Those are just two examples ,they are many more.
The hope is that the game will require you to use your head to advance , not your manual dexterity.

Thats a fact. You dont need to pvp at all, but you do need to be prepared for it.

I can make you the same offer. I will happily teach you the ropes of PVP (once I learn them lol), and maybe you will find its not as difficult as you think.

What offended me was the implication of whining, it was an unneeded assumption to pin on someone voicing a concern. I gave valid reasons for being wary, and was kinda treated like crap for it.

As far as getting upset about dying that is not an issue to me, I die a lot even in pve content.

I did say it was a deal breaker, but again I also stated I would be willing to give it a try and not give up entirely.

Quotes like this "Nihimon, people like Realmwalker cannot handle it when they lose in combat." only prove my case on how unpleasant the whole PvP community tends to be in most games I have played in.

Not every one concerned about PvP are people that can't take being killed a few times. Many of them have had bad experiences with the abusive PvPers in other game systems.

It is an opinion of mine that the more you reward PvP killing for no reason other than to loot bodies of other players, the more problems you will have with abusive players. I'll note another thread here where the discussion of taking body parts as trophies is being discussed...this is what I mean about not being excited about where this is all going.

I do want to thank Lhan and Nihimon for making me feel at home discussing this and going out of there way to make me want to at least give it a try and reserve my opinions until after I have played the game, then if it is still not fun drop it and go on.

I will give it a try with the opinion that I want it to be an awesome experience, a good community to play with, and over all a fun game to play. If it lives up to those then I will continue to play.

@Realm: There's combat, crafting, building, gathering, politics, trading etc - I imagine ensuring these are all inter-connected, it makes each a social experience which makes any enjoyable.

@Realm: There's combat, crafting, building, gathering, politics, trading etc - I imagine ensuring these are all inter-connected, it makes each a social experience which makes any enjoyable.

That is where I hope it goes.

What offended me was the implication of whining, it was an unneeded assumption to pin on someone voicing a concern. I gave valid reasons for being wary, and was kinda treated like crap for it.

As far as getting upset about dying that is not an issue to me, I die a lot even in pve content.

I did say it was a deal breaker, but again I also stated I would be willing to give it a try and not give up entirely.

Quotes like this "Nihimon, people like Realmwalker cannot handle it when they lose in combat." only prove my case on how unpleasant the whole PvP community tends to be in most games I have played in.

Not every one concerned about PvP are people that can't take being killed a few times. Many of them have had bad experiences with the abusive PvPers in other game systems.

It is an opinion of mine that the more you reward PvP killing for no reason other than to loot bodies of other players, the more problems you will have with abusive players. I'll note another thread here where the discussion of taking body parts as trophies is being discussed...this is what I mean about not being excited about where this is all going.

PVEers also have their own form of control and abuse.

For instance: Coming into a heated PVP thread for a game that is a single persistent server Sandbox MMO, then demanding a PVE server or its a deal breaker because PVPers are abusive.

That is a form of control and abuse wrapped in a "cloak of Innocent Victimization."

From what I have seen in other games... Usually the person who was killed runs their mouth at the other player. Whether its a PVEer or a PVPer. Then they jump on the forums and type on how someone attacked them and PVPers need to be nerfed.

Trophies are kinda lame, but that falls back to Diablo where people who died in PVP dropped an Ear to pick up.

Xeen, at this point you are putting words into his mouth.

Realmwalker: Just for clarifications sake: The best cause of action would be to try it out yourself and set up the best possible scenario by finding a role that is fun to play for you and accommodates your condition. As well as finding a player organisation that will allow you to do yo

My posts regarding your fun or lack of it where purely a personal estimate in context of what you have posted and what PFO is on paper. and I want you to have fun.

Wow, I thought this topic was over. If we consider Ryan Dancey's most recent fire starter, I think a lot of our settlement views might need to change.

If he is just being a messenger of doom or not, we may have to think about the BigTown and the OtherBigTown, very early on.

@ Reakwalker, try not to let the views of one person to make your decision for you. Give it a try and maybe there will be a balance between PvE and PvP that you will find you're comfortable with.

PFO will work if people find it their worthwhile to contribute and collaborate. Excited to fashion the early culture of the game in EE in whatever form that temporarily takes.

@realmwalker

If you wish to lower your exposure to PVP then my advice would be to try and join one of the bigger guilds in game. They will have enough seasoned pvp'ers that they won't need everyone necessarily to turn out for a call to arms. They will also have strong pve,crafting and trading divisions which will help.

Currently the biggest three according to the Landrush Poll are The Empyrean Order Empyrean Order , The Seventh Veil Seventh veil and the one I belong to Pax Gaming I would suggest checking out those three websites and thinking of joining one. A guild is fairly necessary in a sandbox game

...Ryan Dancey's most recent fire starter...

For those of you who missed it:

"Let us imagine BigTown. BigTown is run by a huge group of people from some other MMO who have been playing together cohesively for years, and know how to maintain that cohesion in the face of lots of attempts to disrupt.

They come to Pathfinder Online, and via brute force, pitch someone out on their ear and take a Settlement. Let's ignore how that happens for the time being and just say that it does.

BigTown has a guy who has proven to be ridiculously competent at security. This guy has seen pretty much every iteration of various exploration / discovery mechanics and has a "book" on how to min/max them. Call him Guardsman.

He's partnered up with BotGuy. BotGuy has learned how to break into the communication between the game client and the servers, and he's an expert at creating unlicensed, unauthorized programs that masquerade as legit clients. He does it so well that his stuff is almost never detected outright. His prime output is a "headless client" - essentially a program that interacts with the server but that doesn't have to display any 3D graphics. He can run hundreds of these things on a PC. With Amazon's AWS, he can run thousands with scripts and little effort.

Guardsman tells BotGuy: I need 24x7 coverage here, here, here, and here. I need a notification sent to the following hundred people every time a Not Blue character is detected. We need to know exactly where the detection was.

BotGuy creates as many alts as necessary, sets them up to exist wherever necessary, runs them with headless scripts. When a Not Blue is detected, Guardsman and his team log on (there are enough of them that they have 24x7 coverage), and they move by the fastest possible route to the location the detection occurred.

Guardsman has trained his team to seek and destroy. They find the trespasser quickly, and remove the threat. After a reasonable pause to ensure it wasn't a feint or a distraction, they log out and go back to whatever they're doing in their Real Lives.

In this way, BigTown has enforced security across a huge territory. To displace them, you have to break Guardsman's defenses. You can't do that solo. You need AnotherBigTown.

This is the problem everyone will face. These groups are ALREADY OUT THERE, and they'll come to our game as soon as we prove we're not another doomed to fail tiny MMO. They're good. They're well trained. They're cohesive. And they want your land."

And a bit later:

"The way you defeat BigTown is by making AnotherBigTown. It's the reason there won't be a bunch of small boutique Settlements with NRDS security policies. They'll be rolled up by the first wave of organized external Guilds when they show up. By Open Enrollment, it's going to be Europe circa 1900, not Europe circa 0. Everyone who is SERIOUS about running a Settlement is going to be focused on size, cohesion, discipline and security.

We'll keep working on expanding the territory so there's always a place to go and plant a flag and start building, but I can tell you based on what I saw happen in Wormhole Space in EVE that the frontier is going to be claimed by the people who were 2nd best in the last territorial war, and if they learned a thing or two, they'll be even tougher than when they were last beat.

Settlement creation and administration is not a game for casual players."

"Not Blue" and "NRDS" refer to common security rules for territory-protection: "If it doesn't show on the radar as a friendly, kill it", or "Not Blue Shoot It" (NBSI), and "If it doesn't show on radar as an enemy, don't kill it", or "Not Red Don't Shoot" (NRDS).

I do want to thank Lhan and Nihimon for making me feel at home discussing this and going out of there way to make me want to at least give it a try and reserve my opinions until after I have played the game, then if it is still not fun drop it and go on.

You are very welcome, and thank you for letting me know my little crusade wasn't entirely in vain :)

Wow, I thought this topic was over. If we consider Ryan Dancey's most recent fire starter, I think a lot of our settlement views might need to change.

If he is just being a messenger of doom or not, we may have to think about the BigTown and the OtherBigTown, very early on.

@ Reakwalker, try not to let the views of one person to make your decision for you. Give it a try and maybe there will be a balance between PvE and PvP that you will find you're comfortable with.

I never said I would not give it a chance, I have said multiple times that I'm willing to give it a play before I decide if it is for me or not. I merely voiced legitimate concerns that I have. Some of you attacked me for them but many of you have also shown me that there are things to view before I say yes or no. I really and truly want this to work for me and I want it to be successful I love the Golarion setting and would love to be able to explore it.

Realmwalker, we look forward to your input, so please stick around and talk as much as you want.

Realmwalker, we look forward to your input, so please stick around and talk as much as you want.

Ditto. :)

Necrothread arise!!!

The issue had just come up again, and with some of our new forum members, particular
those coming from EvE Online, this thread had sparked many of the same questions....

Slight modification of thread title: Settlement Politics of EE transition into OE:

There is no PVP, there is only the consequences of it.

I am a little at a loss about the thing "botguy" is doing in that very interesting post from Ryan.

Am I correct in thinking it uses some altered, barebone client of the game that is used with many(hundreds) legitimate PFO accounts of the FTP kind (so no sub, no skill accumulation)and then places hundreds of idling characters in the gameworld at strategic locations to sniff out blues?

Can all this be done without it being detected? I mean, these characters have to at least be doing something to sniff out the area for blues, then report to "botguy" in some way. That requires some automation I think, or would that all be client-based and not detectable?

Am I right in thinking that if we see a naked, lowbie, idling character standing somewhere for 24/7, that this is a minion from "botguy"?

@Tyncale, in general you can only have a secure connection when both ends of it are trusted. In the case of MMOs, the client isn't really trusted because the player may well want an unsecure connection precisely so that he can use altered software. This is what Ryan means when he talks about the client being "in the hands of the enemy".

Bot software generally doesn't really change the client, it just runs the client and stands between the client and the server analyzing all the data that passes between them. It can then expose that data to programmers who can then manipulate it to make the server think the client is doing all sorts of things. It's relatively common to see this kind of software used to automate lucrative but tedious in-game activities like harvesting.

The problem you reference with no-subscription headless clients is what makes me think each character ought to have a minimum subscription (or paid-thru) level to even log in to the game. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have a truly free trial that allowed new players to check out the safe areas around the NPC Settlements, but I actually hope that these kinds of "throw away" lowbie characters are free kills if they're significantly outside of the NPC Settlements with no real training.

If folks want to create an army of headless clients, make them pay for the privilege.

Yes, good point, that would certainly make it less attractive. I guess automatically logging out characters that have been idling for a while will not work for the really smart programmers that will have these characters auto-log in again.

Would it really be so hard to detect these idling characters and their specific behavior? Just having them stand there does not seem enough, they must show some automated behavior when they are to act as a detection network in the hundreds. I guess individually it would be hard to discern them from an afk player though.

I must say it would kind off irk me if I had the feeling that I was constantly monitored by such detection networks, where ever I am in the gameworld. Though I guess these networks would mostly operate in the vicinity of Large settlements, and in that case it makes more sense.

Any automated test can have an automated solution to pass it. Remember, it's extremely important that Goblinworks not take any action against false positives - that is, real players who just look like bots. Complicating that is players who use bot software while they're actually at keys, so they can respond to any /tells from GMs. It becomes exceedingly difficult to detect in an actionable way.

This is why I think it's so important to make players pay for each character that's either training or logging in.

One thing they can do to complicate bot software is to obfuscate their data stream and/or significantly change it so frequently that the bot authors can't keep up. The theory behind that kind of thing is a little beyond me, though, and I suspect that the bot authors would figure out a way to automate the process of analyzing the data stream if there was enough demand.

Ryan's statements seem to indicate he's in the camp that believes that people outside Goblinworks will always be able to hack anything client- or datastream-oriented, given time; they've enough curiosity (or perhaps ill-will), resources, skill, and determination to accomplish the task.

The second law of thermodynamics makes the jobs of good-guys in security fields harder than their counterparts, after all :-).

There are three ideas, one by Nihimon, that would take care if many issues involving naked noobs, starter areas and afk logging.

1. Nihimon mentions auto PvP flagging an untrained noob character far outside of the starter area. While I'm not sure PvP flagging is the only way to deal with it, I could see flagging or identifying them as untrained noobs with some kind of icon.

Knowing who they are will make it easier for bot behaviors to be reported. It may also warn you to be wary of their actions (blue blocking, griefing, etc).

2. AFK timer should put someone off server. Yes I know this can be circumvented with a bot program, but that can be detected and reported.

3. After a certain level of training, a character should be barred from entering NPC starter zones.

2. AFK timer should put someone off server. Yes I know this can be circumvented with a bot program, but that can be detected and reported.

If they could detect that bot program, then they'd ban the bot program. They can't reliably detect it without getting false positives. If they start detecting them, the botters will figure out the parameters of the test that's detecting them and change the bots to avoid operating within those parameters.

Personally, I would prefer to see Goblinworks officially sanction automated behavior and expose a library for us to use directly. I don't expect that's a popular opinion though, and I expect the resistance against it by other players is probably one of the main reasons they won't even consider it.

3. After a certain level of training, a character should be barred from entering NPC starter zones.

So much for the Guide Program or any veteran looking to help/assist a new player or low level character (meeting their friend who just joined, trying to escort a low level out to a settlement, etc.)...or any settlement sending their recruiters to find new recruits...

3. After a certain level of training, a character should be barred from entering NPC starter zones.

I do not necessarily disagree that strongly here, but I must ask if you imagine the starter zones to be largely solo-focused areas? The nature of the Single Character per Paid Account (aside from EE Twins) will lend to a much more sparsely populated Novice Zone than the games where having 6 or more alternate characters is common. When you add in that the nature of these games usually have less new players at any given time (made up for through higher retention rates of older players) then I can imagine that we might see a lack of population in this area. Whereas that could be by design, it feels out of place for an area of learning for a highly group-centric game to have a mostly solo starter area.

I remember my experience with Final Fantasy 11 a long time ago. The first 10 to 15 levels were largely solo content and then it was like hitting a wall where you couldn't do very much at all without a group. The beginning of the game had trained me to play in one way, which all had to be thrown away once I got out of the kid gloves area.

On a less important note, I am interested in the NPC areas as a place of refuge for those who lose settlements and need to lick their wounds as well as roots for where lore-oriented game events could be introduced and centered around by devs. Not sure that this will be a feature, but I would like it to be.

Personally, I would prefer to see Goblinworks officially sanction automated behavior and expose a library for us to use directly.

For what it's worth, in some ways I see this as analogous to the Necromancer with his Undead Army. I doubt I'll be able to convince anyone that, even though this would seem to minimize meaningful human interaction by allowing a single player to avoid interacting with others, it would also create a significant amount of content for others.

I don't pretend to have a clue what the economic impacts would be if Goblinworks sanctioned botting, but I'm extremely doubtful they'll ever be able to actually stop it. A large part of my desire to see it sanctioned is so that we don't end up in a situation where the only players who benefit from it are the dishonest ones.

Bluddwolf wrote:

3. After a certain level of training, a character should be barred from entering NPC starter zones.

So much for the Guide Program or any veteran looking to help/assist a new player or low level character (meeting their friend who just joined, trying to escort a low level out to a settlement, etc.)...or any settlement sending their recruiters to find new recruits...

The Guide Program and Recruiting could still take place, just outside of the stater zone or a guide/ recruiter could be a designated role that each company receives as part of its tool kit. Of course violations of this status would be detrimental to the player and their company.

@lifedragon,

Yes I see a starter zone to be a solo experience tutorial, but still within a multiplayer area.

I differentiate between starter zone and NPC starter town.

I guess I missed the threat, but why ban characters from starter zones?

I guess I missed the threat, but why ban characters from starter zones?

It is one way to prevent griefing new characters or players with more experienced, powerful player characters.

But why do you need to ban them? If they attack a newbie inside a starter zone, the Marshalls will deal with them very effectively. It seems like banning them entirely cuts down on a lot of potentially positive human interaction.

But why do you need to ban them? If they attack a newbie inside a starter zone, the Marshalls will deal with them very effectively. It seems like banning them entirely cuts down on a lot of potentially positive human interaction.

That is true, but I also believe that part of the design goals of GW would be get players out of the starter zone and into the big wide open world beyond.

I honestly don't see much of a downside to it, but if the NPC starter zones remain open to all, it is not that big of a deal. It was merely a suggestion.

I do think that my other idea, build somewhat off of yours has more practical use. Having untrained noob characters clearly labeled as such has a number of benefits.

Having untrained noob characters clearly labeled as such has a number of benefits.

You could quite literally show how metaphorically GREEN they are.

Bluddwolf wrote:

Having untrained noob characters clearly labeled as such has a number of benefits.

You could quite literally show how metaphorically GREEN they are.

Bad pun,

Personally, I would prefer to see Goblinworks officially sanction automated behavior and expose a library for us to use directly. I don't expect that's a popular opinion though, and I expect the resistance against it by other players is probably one of the main reasons they won't even consider it.

i have suggested something like this before

I think its important to note that you do not really need to use bots to get the same results as "bot-man" in ryans example. Assuming that the kindoms/alliances get a global chat or ability to make other chat rooms all you need is a large alliance with standing orders to report the location of any non-blues you find via global chat.

This is pretty much how intel channels work in EVE. Limiting chat channels wont work either because the alliances will just use out of game resources (IRC).

The concern isn't so much that people will have too much intel; the concern was that one single person could gather all that intel via bots. I don't think anyone has an issue with people of a settlement/nation reporting suspicious people's movements to their leadership.

Nihimon wrote:

But why do you need to ban them? If they attack a newbie inside a starter zone, the Marshalls will deal with them very effectively. It seems like banning them entirely cuts down on a lot of potentially positive human interaction.

That is true, but I also believe that part of the design goals of GW would be get players out of the starter zone and into the big wide open world beyond.

I honestly don't see much of a downside to it, but if the NPC starter zones remain open to all, it is not that big of a deal. It was merely a suggestion.

I do think that my other idea, build somewhat off of yours has more practical use. Having untrained noob characters clearly labeled as such has a number of benefits.

I think that making new characters do something for a time before they start playing the game is a bad idea. If there isn't anything of value in the starter zone, it's not really part of the game, but a tutorial.

A tutorial is probably a good idea.

@ Decious,

Yes I see a starter zone to be a solo experience tutorial, but still within a multiplayer area.

I see we are in agreement.

@ Decious,

Bluudwolf wrote:

Yes I see a starter zone to be a solo experience tutorial, but still within a multiplayer area.

I see we are in agreement.

That's good, because I'm internally conflicted about whether a tutorial should even be connected to the server.

A one-way gate out of the tutorial area would probably cover all of the edge cases.

Bluddwolf wrote:

@ Decious,

Bluudwolf wrote:

Yes I see a starter zone to be a solo experience tutorial, but still within a multiplayer area.

I see we are in agreement.

That's good, because I'm internally conflicted about whether a tutorial should even be connected to the server.

A one-way gate out of the tutorial area would probably cover all of the edge cases.

It really depends on how they partition the NPE (New Player Experience). I'm somewhat nostalgic of the EvE Online NPE of being thrown to the wolves, but I know that probably puts me into a small class of insanity.

The current Eve NPE is a lot better than when I first joined eve and is in now way segregated. I see no reason to do so in PfO either nor to ban players from NPC space.

Forcing people to leave NPC area's and into player settlements causes no end of problems and shouldn't be done because all it will mean is a good proportion of those people will just quit

Problems it will cause

1) What about players who are not deemed acceptable by any player settlements and there will be some groups like this of a certainty.

2) What happens to all the people of a settlement that falls, where do they go to regroup and lick their wounds?

3) How are items going to get into the NPC settlement market place

While it is plain to most that I have little time for Dancey one thing I will say I believe he has done right is making higher level training and crafting need player run settlements. It is much better to encourage people out than to force them. Every resents being driven, few resent being seduced.

@Steelwing - the Crash Course is instanced. But as soon as you finish the crash course you're in the shared server.

(The Crash Course is a short tutorial teaching people how to fly and read the overview and a few other things)

@Steelwing - the Crash Course is instanced. But as soon as you finish the crash course you're in the shared server.

(The Crash Course is a short tutorial teaching people how to fly and read the overview and a few other things)

It is well hidden then because on at least one alt I have not even bothered picking up the starter ship and just gone straight to the stargate and podded it to my destination

I would perfer being throw into the mix from basically the start. have players go to the New adventurer hall or some such. Allow them to pick up as much starter gear as they want (all different weapons and armor) so that they can try all of them without any issue. Just make it so that the stuff is very very basic and has no value.

Include some quests that show the basics of how to do things, combat, gathering, crafting...etc. so a player has at least tried it once. After that I would say let folks do what they want to do.

I do think that in the game documentation, tutorial, FAQs...etc. it needs to stress the sandbox elements and how you wont have quest chains to take you from noob to capped. That the PLAYER needs to make their own experience. The new player experience needs to show what KINDS of things a player can do, not what kinds of quests they do. This is also why i think something like WAR's Book of Lore would be a good idea for a sandbox game.

@Steelwing - the Crash Course is instanced. But as soon as you finish the crash course you're in the shared server.

(The Crash Course is a short tutorial teaching people how to fly and read the overview and a few other things)

It's not really instanced (tried it on an empty character slot slot, there were a bunch of space yurts with russian labels, and a couple other players in rookie ships).

You're thrown out into the world in EVE from the first moment you leave a station. Yes, there are some of the acceleration gates (which means you get your private bit of deadspace), but that's no different from any other mission. CCP is pretty adamant about no dicking around in the starter systems (and the rookie systems, where the career missions are located, though there's usually people there doing some stuff).

What the tutorial utterly fails in (and which is the hard part) is teaching anything about the social complexity of the game; it just tries to teach about the game mechanics and interaction. Getting people into the social bits of the game early on (and reducing the sometimes rather toxic community) would help EVE, and (hopefully) will help Pathfinder Online as well.