Goblin Squad Member
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If I am unable to pick and choose "healthy" targets. And am unable to be successful in SADs. Then it would create a problem. Because if I am able to successfully do these things then I can promise it would happen far less in the first place, and the community would be better for it: Content, Taking materials off the market, driving up prices, fewer PvP deaths, etc.
On the other hand. If I cant make it work the way GWs intends as a Bandit. Then just to make some gold ill end up killing more people and not even offering SAD for fear of giving the victim time to destroy the haul. I guess it makes Content as well. But its definitely a ot more unsafe and worse off on the victims, and doesn't help regulate the economy nearly as well.
In that instance we hunt you down not as a bandit but as a murderer. Whereas you individually may become more of a loose cannon, the idea is that fewer people will become bandits, themselves looking for more promising paths of reward. The idea is to make banditry less rewarding as a whole to diminish the overall population of bandits.
Good-aligned forces should not reasonably tolerate either method, SAD nor murder. SAD is more tolerable in the way that I would rather amputate my foot instead of my whole leg, but really I'd like to keep my foot too.
I want the community to find ways to control and diminish banditry, though. Not a game mechanic. Loot denial is merely one lever to experiment with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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By denying the bandits my gear as loot, I am not gaining anything at all short-term, except to annoy the people who have chosen to rob me anyway. Personally I would chalk that one up as a small win, but still....
If I am a regular traveller, however, the bandits will soon start to recognise me as a spoilsport who destroys gear before it can be looted. They may attack anyway, just for S&G or out of spite, but it will be in the knowledge that they are unlikely to come away ahead of the game.
Eventually, I will be known as a poor target, not worth targeting.
As an individual that is great, as a large-scale haulier it is a fabulous result. As the boss of a transport firm, I would positively encourage my hauliers to destroy everything if they could. For a small short-term loss (which would probably have been stolen anyhow), I am able to transport future goods in relative safety.
Yes, bandits may still attack to try to make a point, but how is that different from being attacked anyway? Any bandit group targeting unprofitable caravans is likely to go out of business anyhow, so I doubt that the vengeance attacks will be as regular as 'standard' bandit activity. I could even run Q-ship caravans, where the aim is to draw the bandits into attacking me.
As an anti-bandit tactic, destroying your goods before they are looted is okay by me.
There is much to respond to here, but I will try.
First, your assumption that you would be viewed as the poor little traveler that destroys your own goods, would be a deterrent, won't be to the extent that you believe. First, it would just convince me to not try to SAD you.
I would use the full ambush abilities granted by my class skills, my outlaw flag and my hideout to engage you in combat before you had the chance to dump your gear.
Now forgive me if I'm wrong, and I can't confirm it from IPad, but I recall something being said that you can not alter inventory once combat has begun. I am certain it was directed on the topic of attempting to thread unthreaded items after an attack had begun. But, it may also cover the removal of inventory items as well (ie. Dumping).
But for the sake if argument let us say you can dump your inventory, thus destroying it. Let us also say that you will do this at he mere sight of a group of bandits. I can see a means to make coin from your actions.
If all I have to do is show my face for you to destroy your goods, that will reduce the supply if those goods from the market place. What I had SAD'd or looted from others, not so willing to sacrifice all, I would be able to make more from my sales on the same local market.
Furthermore, I could see approaching your rival settlement or merchant company and sell my services, to spook you into destroying your cargo and therefore increasing the value of their wares.
Then there is this next point. You seem to be under the impression that loot is the only gain of concern from PvP. There is also the experience of combat that is to be gained. There is the fun of combat to be had. There is the reputation of being a successful bandit company to be earned as well.
Now, if you say, "I will not fight back, and deny you those gains from combat as well." We can still gain combat information even from a target that does not fight back. We can test out various alpha strike combos and see how many attackers and what attacks does it take to one-shot a PC? If you at least move, then we can practice roots or other tackling skills and methods.
I can assure you, we will be having much more fun at it than you will. We will probably still work out some angle to make coin from it as well.
You can spend all kinds of mental energy as a merchant trying to deny us from looting even a potion if what you carry. Doing as you suggest, will deny us your loot, but it will also deny you what you are supposed to be... a merchant. If we do not take your loot, and perhaps wasted our time with you, in the end we still attacked you..... We are still bandits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Item destruction needs to be a feature unless you can drop items on the ground. Something we aren't likely to see because of server load issues.
That being said. Instant item destruction that can be used to deprive attackers of loot is a bad idea. Even if you loathe bandits it's a bad idea because they can do it right back to us when we go to recover your gear for you.
I know in Darkfall any gear deleted in the last 5 minutes stays on your corpse when you die. Something similar to this, or making gear deletion require you to stand still and finish an interruptable action timer would both make sense.
Personally I view deleting gear to be just as bad of sportsmanship as teabagging someone.
I understand the fruits of your labor thing, and I understand pride, but the bandits can't take all of your stuff anyway. It is far preferable to them killing you and then looting your corpse which destroys 100% of non-threaded gear they didn't loot if I remember right.
You failed to sneak by, and you failed to defeat them. They won. Next time be sneakier or hire a stronger escort. But for now tip your hat and be in your way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I am unable to pick and choose "healthy" targets. And am unable to be successful in SADs. Then it would create a problem. Because if I am able to successfully do these things then I can promise it would happen far less in the first place, and the community would be better for it: Content, Taking materials off the market, driving up prices, fewer PvP deaths, etc.
It sounds like you're saying "if I can successfully play a bandit using SAD, then I'll do less banditry. If I can't get goods with SAD, I'll do more banditry."
You're a bandit. Why would you rob fewer people if SAD works? What would you do with your time instead?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In that instance we hunt you down not as a bandit but as a murderer. Whereas you individually may become more of a loose cannon, the idea is that fewer people will become bandits, themselves looking for more promising paths of reward. The idea is to make banditry less rewarding as a whole to diminish the overall population of bandits..
First, the penalty for theft, banditry, murder or trespass are all the same... Death, which we all know is meaningless for any that are not a settlement leader in a time of war.
Again, you seem to not understand the allure of a bandits life. It is not the promise of an easy life or of vast riches. The only thing a band it's life is promised is the freedom to do as we please, outside of the constraints of the tyranny of government.
Your oppressive view will drive those that seek freedom into our ranks. Your amassed wealth, that you expect to gain, will make other settlements envy and covet your wealth. They will support us to continue to raid your gathering camps and merchant caravans.
If you are successful in your quest to stamp out bandits, you will accomplish nothing more than making us privateers and mercenaries. These privateers and mercenaries will fly the Outlaw Flags and SAD, just as the bandits did.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Item destruction needs to be a feature unless you can drop items on the ground. Something we aren't likely to see because of server load issues.
Andius, your post made me consider the problem in a new light. My anti-bandit bias was speaking as opposed to my concept of realism.
In a perfect game-world - I would say that item destruction would require time and possibly tools. I can't imagine breaking a suit of plate mail over my knee.
Also - I so very dearly miss games where you could throw items on the ground.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Destroying your cargo so that it can't fall into the wrong hands should definitely be supported, but it should be costly. If the bandits are wise, they'll allow enough merchants to make it through so that they feel safe enough to forego that cost.
I can see the logic in allowing it for certain items that's it's highly important the enemy not find. How would you feel if you could use gear threads to make a small portion of items in your inventory hard to detect, and instantly destroyed upon death? (Such as assassin contracts and stuff)
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, the penalty for theft, banditry, murder or trespass are all the same... Death, which we all know is meaningless for any that are not a settlement leader in a time of war.
If the penalty for theft is the same for murder or even trespass, then we have not appropriately addressed the issues. Death can happen multiple times. And your reputation as a thief versus a murderer can change who is willing to do business and/or associate with you.
The duration and priority of man-hunts should differ based on the act. If we have resources for one man-hunt. The man who issues SAD's to 10 players is probably safer than the guy who has been assaulting novice players without warning all day.
The only reason theft and murder are almost the same is that you are threatening murder if you do not get your goods from SAD. (The less evil option of Pickpocketing has been sadly lacking from this discussion by the way!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the penalty for theft is the same for murder or even trespass, then we have not appropriately addressed the issues. Death can happen multiple times. And your reputation as a thief versus a murderer can change who is willing to do business and/or associate with you.
The duration and priority of man-hunts should differ based on the act. If we have resources for one man-hunt. The man who issues SAD's to 10 players is probably safer than the guy who has been assaulting novice players without warning all day.
Within the context of a game like PFO... Why is murder vs theft a notable distinction.
Theft = taking items from a person
Murder = taking items from a person + sending him back to his bind point.
Now there is certainly a subjective viewpoint based on the victim himself, the frequency of the act, etc... But within the context of PFO there is no real distinction from a players point of view. Now in the in game reputation mechanic, sure I'll grant the SAD's value and logical conclusion. It also makes sense as far as whether a business would trust you, because as far as when I'm going to do business, I would certainly chose someone who states his intents when he is going to do something bad to me, vs someone who historically smiles and acts friendly then stabs you in the back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can't imagine breaking a suit of plate mail over my knee.
I was thinking along the lines of boobytrapping a cargo wagon to burn with magical fire, hot enough to melt armor and destroy anything in it.
The point is to give players something they can do if the bandits are getting overzealous, but that they won't want to do if a significant number of their cargoes get through anyway.
How would you feel if you could use gear threads to make a small portion of items in your inventory hard to detect, and instantly destroyed upon death? (Such as assassin contracts and stuff)
I really don't know.
Part of the problem is that I have trouble putting myself into the proper mindset to brainstorm solutions because the problem just isn't very important to me. In general, I intend to travel in groups large enough to deter all but the most determined and well-geared attackers.
I very much intend to be decked out in full T3 gear as soon as possible, and to be rich and successful enough to not worry too much if I lose it all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Darkfall we had our list of respectable rivals. We might kill them when we saw them. If we desired their assets we might lay siege to them. We would support groups we liked in sieges against them. Sometimes we might even send 1 person out to duel them if we came across a lone one while we were grouped, as a show of respect. And if they won we left them be.
Then there was our list of scum bags. We would hunt them down in order to kill them. We would destroy their assets simply so they had to rebuild them, then destroy them again. We would offer our support to any group that fought against them. Even people we usually fought against. We wouldn't show any mercy until their behavior changed or they disbanded.
So death isn't just death. There is fighting for fun, and fighting because you want to see someone fall.
SAD using bandits are vital to a healthy PFO community. We need companies and settlements like UNC, Bloody Hand, and Acheron. We don't need griefers, and RPKers are only slightly better.
Our evil companies shouldn't be teabagging people, and our merchants shouldn't be deleting their loot. SAD needs to be a viable mechanic, and people who get SADed need to be good sports about it. As a champion I'll likely decline all SADs and fight to the death. But they have earned the right to loot my corpse if I die.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Within the context of a game like PFO... Why is murder vs theft a notable distinction."
Because I do not necessarily relate my moral system to the notion of players only but to the larger 'truth of the world'. As a Good-aligned character, my character's worldview is going to take into account the perspective of nonplayer characters that do not benefit from the same Mark of Pharasma that players get. The moral outlook is based on the majority of people, not the privileged few (players).
In short, I look to play as a character in part of a living world. Not as a player that looks at cold mechanical rules.
In that light I imagine that death for characters, even if only a "minor setback" in the grand scheme of ambitions, is still going to be a physically painful experience! Even if I as a player do not experience said pain.
Perhaps I am odd for empathizing with digital characters, but I feel that in itself is the very heart for roleplaying a solid character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It sounds like you're saying "if I can successfully play a bandit using SAD, then I'll do less banditry. If I can't get goods with SAD, I'll do more banditry."
You're a bandit. Why would you rob fewer people if SAD works? What would you do with your time instead?
The Unnamed Company will be one of the better bandit groups you'll find. I intend to be more of a bandit then a murderer. This requires though that SAD actually work and not having people destroying their loads right and left.
Saying that, if I am able to successfully use SAD then that will result in a lot less killing. I will also only be taking a small portion of your cargo/worth. And I will honor the SAD and wont just out and out kill you for the hell of it. Ill also not go out of my way to make you feel like Im picking on you or repeatedly attack you. Lastly, if the SADs even at a small percentage are low, Ill still gain more by not driving the merchants into the ground. Its bad business for me to drive them away or drive them out of business. Only a fool would do that.
Now on the other hand if I have to worry about people destroying their haul right and left, then that will mean little or no SADs and more stealth attacks with full force so you don't even get the chance. And if because of item destruction were having a hard time actually getting loot after the attack, then that will just drive me harder to kill more people in the hopes that eventually we get the drop on them and can get some shinies.
Also even though we are a bandit company. We will also take other kinds of contracts, even legitimate ones. Because while we might be bandits we honor a contract whatever it is, and wont do anything that would be against our clients interest as long as they are in fact our clients.
Lastly, even though we are bandits primarily. I also love PvE content such as dungeon runs, beating up boss mobs, and exploring the map. I predict Ill be doing these PvE activities (likely with my PvP flag up, just in case someone sees me and wants to kill me. Bring it on^^) about 35-40% of the time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SAD using bandits are vital to a healthy PFO community. We need companies and settlements like UNC, Bloody Hand, and Acheron. We don't need griefers, and RPKers are only slightly better.
"We" is a subjective term when discussing need. I would have plenty of fun playing this exact same game as a purely PvE experience with zero PvP. I accept that they will provide a value add for the larger community with more competitive urges. I accept that they too should have a game they enjoy playing. But I certainly do not 'need' them in order to enjoy what is being offered up.
I think my stance is closer to: "There is a place for them here and I accept that."
I feel that factions warring over territory and resources are a bigger value add than bandits hitting harvesters and merchants. Perhaps I am a carebear sympathizer. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Saying that, if I am able to successfully use SAD then that will result in a lot less killing. I will also only be taking a small portion of your cargo/worth. And I will honor the SAD and wont just out and out kill you for the hell of it. Ill also not go out of my way to make you feel like Im picking on you or repeatedly attack you. Lastly, if the SADs even at a small percentage are low, Ill still gain more by not driving the merchants into the ground. Its bad business for me to drive them away or drive them out of business. Only a fool would do that.
This poses another question in my mind. We may have "responsible banditry" where an individual takes only a small bit and lets you on your way. What happens when you run into 10 of these guys along your way? Do you get a temporary protection mechanically for giving into a SAD, or can a group systematically SAD you to maximize returns with you hoping each will be the last before you finally have enough and forfeit your life (at the end only being able to flag a bounty on one of them)?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If loot deletion is possible and UNC aren't RPKing, I would urge you to make a public list of those who delete their loot.
I'll leave it to each TEO member whether they want to protect those individuals or not, but they won't have my protection.
On the other hand, if you are RPKing, I'll urge TEO traders to delete their loot myself.
I think I'll bring this issue up and have a vote on our policies concerning loot deletion and protection of those who do it at our next meeting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As for a lowering rep per faction, Im not sure that is needed. However Im also not really understanding you either. Are you talking about something like a separate CC or Settlement rep? Or do you mean then NPC factions?
No worries. I do not want to turn this into another discussion of reputation, but I want to make my position clear.
To me, the draw of this game is primarily interest in social engineering and nation building. PvP, if I feel like doing it, is just a bonus. What I am really looking forward to is harvesting, crafting, and politics.
So, when I and my crew spend 8 hours defending our mining camp to get a few rare mats needed for some improvement to our settlement, we then look forward to getting back and putting it in place; enjoying the spoils of our time. Yes, I am also looking forward to the whole escalation and defending of the camp, so it is not really "labour".
Being robbed on our way to our settlement and being forced to give up those materials we have just acquired gives me nothing...provides zero content...and in fact only takes away from our efforts and goals. I cannot think of any non-PvP rationale for encouraging banditry. It is nothing more than a frustration, forcing us to reschedule a time and place to go mine again for a repeat purpose.
To be clear, I do understand that the game also includes PvP aspects. As Bluddwolf continues to tell me, there is no expectation of safety, especially in the wilds. I agree and have never argued differently (in fact, I was one of the loudest, original forum proponents of open PvP).
But, social engineering is also part of the game. GW is giving us social engineering tools as a way to allow players to discourage unfavourable behaviours. The way the tools currently work is through an automated reputation system; certain actions cause reputation loss, others rep gain...then we who run settlements can restrict access to facilities based upon that reputation.
The is where my problem comes in. I will end up playing with people who are like me, who want to build as opposed to destroy. I know this because it has been the case with every MMO I have ever played. Our collective goals will not necessarily be PvP related, they will be about working together to achieve common goals such as the development of our settlement/nation, access to goods, defense of our operations, and yes, defense of our holdings in PvP and PvE as needed. As already described, being robbed offers no content and removes the meaningfulness/reward of other content. So, we will want to use social engineering tools to discourage the behaviour. However, being a successful bandit raises the automatic rep, raising the bandit above our lower bar barrier to facility access. In other words, currently we have no recourse, we have no way to discourage behaviour that only subtracts content from our game focus.
We are not asking everyone to discourage banditry, we just want the right to be able to discourage it in our holdings. Others, if they think parasites and banditry adds to their regions flavour, by all means promote it. We do not...and will not. This lack of social engineering tools is my concern.
As a solution, I think each social group should be able to set how much they like other persons and/or groups. So, those in my social group should be able to vote up or down other groups. This creates a player driven rep system that is private to each person and group but can be used to determine access to groups holdings.
I never intend to transport goods without heavy guard. My issue is not the fear of losing things, my issue is my lack of logical social engineering tools...related to our social group and access to our held facilities and goods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This whole 'destroy my loot' game sounds tedious, meta and un-fun (that's a word, right?) to me. If it can be done, both the bandit- and the transportation rackets will have to adapt to accomodate for it.
It makes no sense to me. Rather than adding loot auto-destruction as a frustrating 'feature' (frustrating to deal with both for the target and the attacker I'd imagine), I'd simply prefer if it was not really possible. That way, both banditry and anti-banditry could be proper in-game activities that make sense in Golarion and not reduced to 'tag 'em before they autodestruct' or 'omygodimgonnadie, better click delete as fast as i can' type meta-minigames.
That's just my humble personal opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... couldn't find a quote quickly...
I think this is what you're thinking of:
To combat the concern about bandits abusing S.A.D. by asking for too much lootWe're debating internally some more details for this, as formalizing Stand and Deliver as an actual mechanic is brand new this week. You're staring at something prototyped straight out of the design workshop here :) .
But do note that even if we didn't put any limits on it, a guy hitting you up for "One MEEEEELION Gold Pieces!" still might leave you in a better off state than if he'd blindsided you from total surprise. Sure, if it's that imbalanced that he can just kill you in either case, it sucks that he loses no Rep for exploiting the intent of the system, but if he does so he's at least giving you a chance to play for time and call in friends or plan your escape route.
We'll almost certainly have some limits on it, though.
Also regarding S.A.D., to combat the "conga line", perhaps, like the "killed" flag, there could be a "protected" or "fleeced" flag for traders that pay their toll.Almost certainly the case. If you've paid already, within that window other bandits won't get to hit you up again. If the first guy asked for too little, they can go take it up with the guy undercutting them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However, being a successful bandit raises the automatic rep, raising the bandit above our lower bar barrier to facility access.
I wasn't really understanding your position until I read that. You're absolutely right.
If Reputation is meant to be a measure of how well you get along with others, it seems perverse to allow bullies to gain Reputation by successfully bullying others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I agree the automated system plays a role...I prefer bandits do offer the SAD and this is the only way to promote that behaviour. I also think it can be used to promote other desired behaviours.
The addition of what I outlined allows real customization for access to each groups holdings. Without which however, I think the system is seriously flawed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to me it might make sense to categorize Reputation, so that Reputation gained from extorting money from merchants via the Stand-and-Deliver mechanic can be distinguished from Reputation gained as a Champion.
Another possibility would be to simply bar the Alignments which are capable of flying the Outlaw flag.
I'm going back now to try to re-read your proposal in this new light.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon I think at its core, the reputation system is more about how you play within the rules, not how well you get along with others. If you drive your reputation down by attacking without cause/flags then you open yourself up for attacks by others - simply because they'll suffer small rep losses for knocking you back to your spawn point.
But yes, it seems perverse if the bandit gains a lot of rep for attacks. But some rep encourages them to play nice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I and my party can elect to vote their rep down...and it impacts the reputation of UNnamed as it relates only to our Company, Settlement, and Nation.
Yeah, I get it. That is actually the way I thought Reputation was going to work all along. I'm quite disappointed that it's just going to be a simple score that's globally applicable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I wont say I agree or disagree. Im a little neutral on your position in this matter Kitnyx. If it gets added fine, if it never does, it wouldn't bother me either. I wiould say that this sounds like it would fit perfectly well in the realm of metagaming information warfare. The Unnamed Company fully expects to get contracts for spying and information gathering. This seems like it could fit for that. But I understand the concern of not being able to block access because of my high reputation as well.
Might I suggest you just block Chaotics then?
Also we don't know what blocking controls a settlement will fully have. It could be that you could also bar specific organizations or characters as well?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon I think at its core, the reputation system is more about how you play within the rules, not how well you get along with others.
I think you're right, and I see the wisdom of that way of looking at it.
Still, I understand KitNyx's concern and will probably obsess over it for a while.
What I had very much hoped for was a system where each Character had a Reputation with each other Character, Company, Settlement, and Nation. Bluddwolf might have a very high Reputation with the Unnamed Company and Acheron, but have extremely low Reputation with TEO. That seems good and right to me, and I'm sure it would solve KitNyx's concern, too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would seem to me that the simplest way to control that would be the system in place, as well as, just a "blacklist", as Greedygoblin suggested. Far easier than tracking reps per player according to each individual. Crikey, how many running rep scores is that? Growing larger and larger as new players come in...
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Darkfall we had our list of respectable rivals. We might kill them when we saw them. If we desired their assets we might lay siege to them. We would support groups we liked in sieges against them. Sometimes we might even send 1 person out to duel them if we came across a lone one while we were grouped, as a show of respect. And if they won we left them be.
Then there was our list of scum bags. We would hunt them down in order to kill them. We would destroy their assets simply so they had to rebuild them, then destroy them again. We would offer our support to any group that fought against them. Even people we usually fought against. We wouldn't show any mercy until their behavior changed or they disbanded.
So death isn't just death. There is fighting for fun, and fighting because you want to see someone fall.
SAD using bandits are vital to a healthy PFO community. We need companies and settlements like UNC, Bloody Hand, and Acheron. We don't need griefers, and RPKers are only slightly better.
Our evil companies shouldn't be teabagging people, and our merchants shouldn't be deleting their loot. SAD needs to be a viable mechanic, and people who get SADed need to be good sports about it. As a champion I'll likely decline all SADs and fight to the death. But they have earned the right to loot my corpse if I die.
At first I was looking to trim this quote down to something more manageable,but I agree with every point made.
@ Nihimon: "If Reputation is meant to be a measure of how well you get along with others, it seems perverse to allow bullies to gain Reputation by successfully bullying others."
Not how well you play with others,how well you play within the designed rules with others.
By your standard,anyone using the Enforcer Flag is not playing well with me. Should they have a negative reputation for hunting me down? Of course not!
What we need is some more details from GW about:
1. How will hideouts work?
2. What tools will companies have if in a settlement and if not sponsored by a settlement?
3. Will there be caravans? What options do the travelers have for guarding them? How do bandits identify them, and attack them?
4. Here is an economic question I'm not exactly getting.
GW is under the belief that bandits will loot some items and the the rest will be destroyed,and that will lead to less supply and the prices for these items will go up.
This I do understand, although it remains to be seen if it works that way.
The SAD however, is different. Here the bandits are given some of the cargo, and the merchant goes on with the remained. There is no item destruction in this exchange. If the merchant was using the traveler flag, between him and the bandit, more of the goods will actually get to the market, than if the SAD was not accepted.
Is it that SADs allow for more supply to hit the markets,by design?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would seem to me that the simplest way to control that would be the system in place, as well as, just a "blacklist", as Greedygoblin suggested. Far easier than tracking reps per player according to each individual. Crikey, how many running rep scores is that? Growing larger and larger as new players come in...
EVE manages it just fine. I would be sated by a blacklist, but it creates other issues I would need solved before I am pleased.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Nihimon: "If Reputation is meant to be a measure of how well you get along with others, it seems perverse to allow bullies to gain Reputation by successfully bullying others."
Not how well you play with others,how well you play within the designed rules with others.
Agreed, which is why I argue we need both, each is measuring something different.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it that SADs allow for more supply to hit the markets,by design?
Not sure if it is by design but it does seem to. I believe that the key to it, is it allows you some operation in the positive rep range. It makes bandits workable. otherwise most would just go about non traveler flagged.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bludd
It could be that they hope it to effect it do to multiple markets?
Didn't they say they would not have a universal AH or some such?
If that's the case, then if we bandits SAD Kit in a wilderness hex.
Then that might mean Kit takes back the remaining goods to their settlement.
And we take back what we SAD'd (lol trying to make that a verb is fun)to a different hex of our choosing.
Maybe the loss in goods drive up the price a bit in Kit's hex.
Maybe the introduction of goods seldom seen to the hex of our choosing enrich us and bring exotic goods to the needy (or greedy ^.~)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bludd
It could be that they hope it to effect it do to multiple markets?
Didn't they say they would not have a universal AH or some such?
If that's the case, then if we bandits SAD Kit in a wilderness hex.
Then that might mean Kit takes back the remaining goods to their settlement.
And we take back what we SAD'd (lol trying to make that a verb is fun)to a different hex of our choosing.
Maybe the loss in goods drive up the price a bit in Kit's hex.
Maybe the introduction of goods seldom seen to the hex of our choosing enrich us and bring exotic goods to the needy (or greedy ^.~)
I will change my song and agree to every SAD if I can insure you do take the goods you steal elsewhere...and hopefully get robbed on your way. I would insure you take the goods elsewhere by being able to limit your access to local facilities (assuming they belong to me and mine).
Otherwise the only discouragement option I have access to is to take as many of you with me as I can...and of course if I die, you get less of my loot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You forgot the part where the alchemist destroys all of his inventory and just leaves.Once a SAD is initiated, there is no "Destroy all and just walk away". There is only pay or decline. Once declined, the bandits can attack without incurring the negative affects of the attacker flag, nor those for killing.
There is no "just leave"..... Even if you destroy all of your items, before the SAD is issued, and we inspect your inventory and see you are naked. We will assume you cheated us out of our SAD and accept the Attacker Flag; the CE alignment shift; and the Reputation hit when we kill you! Then take screen shots or Fraps of ourselves tea bagging your corpse and post them on our forums for the Lolz!!
If push comes to shove, we will be chaotic evil and low rep for that specific event and thank you for the meaningful interaction. You may not see the meaning through your tears, but we will.
Oh and before you say that is griefing or RPKing, it's not! It is well within the behaviors we want to see, that the Devs have laid out.
This
Oh and ThisLOLOL I laughed for 5 minutes
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kitnyx
I know that GW has said that you Can specify, by name, who could take a bounty contract. Perhaps that same system could be used by a settlement to bar specific individuals from entering their settlement.
It would be more cumbersome to we end-users, but it would be sufficient.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We are not looking to SAD the lone wanderer...I wish you spoke for all of you. Unfortunately, too many of your "colleagues" won't even bother with SAD; you might find it hard to avoid being tarred with their brush.
Dont misunderstand what I said before. I will be out to PVP, but if I can make a profit doing so I will. Anyone who accepts SAD will be left alone afterwards.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Item destruction needs to be a feature unless you can drop items on the ground. Something we aren't likely to see because of server load issues.
That being said. Instant item destruction that can be used to deprive attackers of loot is a bad idea. Even if you loathe bandits it's a bad idea because they can do it right back to us when we go to recover your gear for you.
I know in Darkfall any gear deleted in the last 5 minutes stays on your corpse when you die. Something similar to this, or making gear deletion require you to stand still and finish an interruptable action timer would both make sense.
Personally I view deleting gear to be just as bad of sportsmanship as teabagging someone.
I understand the fruits of your labor thing, and I understand pride, but the bandits can't take all of your stuff anyway. It is far preferable to them killing you and then looting your corpse which destroys 100% of non-threaded gear they didn't loot if I remember right.
You failed to sneak by, and you failed to defeat them. They won. Next time be sneakier or hire a stronger escort. But for now tip your hat and be in your way.
Server load should not be an issue. People eject their cargo all the time in Eve so It doesnt show up on their loss mail. The jetisoned cargo drops in a Cargo Container that stays in space for about an hour I think.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would seem to me that the simplest way to control that would be the system in place, as well as, just a "blacklist", as Greedygoblin suggested. Far easier than tracking reps per player according to each individual. Crikey, how many running rep scores is that? Growing larger and larger as new players come in...
I don't think that's simpler at all. It requires someone to make an all-or-nothing determination at a point in time. The system I had in mind would allow me to "crowdsource" my opinion of other player characters.
It would probably be "easier" both to track and to analyze, but you lose a lot of value. And frankly, "big data" shouldn't be that much of a problem these days.
Not to mention, the particular solution I had in mind for this problem would lend itself extremely well to tracking the relationships between various "identities" of a single character, allowing for anonymity and disguise at a much more elaborate level.
But yeah, I get that it's easier, and even though these are my pet ideas and something I think would be extremely cool, even I wouldn't prioritize them over any of the other things that are really necessary for EE and even the launch of OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Server load should not be an issue. People eject their cargo all the time in Eve so It doesnt show up on their loss mail. The jetisoned cargo drops in a Cargo Container that stays in space for about an hour I think.
Unfortunately I recall a conversation where Ryan said items would not be droppable due to server load. (Go go gadget Nihimon!)
If you consider the terrain assets (or lack thereof) in EVE, and the great-grandmother friendly pace of combat, I feel that makes a lot of sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The model I proposed actually altered the rep of a person and each of the social groups s/he belongs to for each of the social groups I belong to.
This would actually gives social groups an interest in the behaviour of its members...if they have an interest in maintaining positive relationships with any given social group; promoting social engineering if the type GW has already advocated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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nfortunately I recall a conversation where Ryan said items would not be droppable due to server load. (Go go gadget Nihimon!)
It's a sickness... I work with a guy who I'm convinced will just randomly think of something to ask me so he can make me look up a word's definition, or quickly read about the history of a particular event. I think he gets a kick out of it, somehow...
Anyway, there are a number of threads discussing dropping items on the ground, but I'm not seeing anything from any of the devs about it.
The model I proposed actually altered the rep of a person and each of the social groups s/he belongs to for each of the social groups I belong to.
I would like that very much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The model I proposed actually altered the rep of a person and each of the social groups s/he belongs to for each of the social groups I belong to.
This would actually gives social groups an interest in the behaviour of its members...if they have an interest in maintaining positive relationships with any given social group; promoting social engineering if the type GW has already advocated.
Quickly to the "bold" type... No it doesn't, or at least not to my knowledge. GW's only stance on "social engineering" is the Dev Blog that lists the interactions they want to see, and those that they don't. They have a generic Reputation system that is character based, not account based and is impacted (unfortunately) by both PVP and PVE actions and also unfortunately by some input of a rebuke / praise player rating that can potentially be abused.
If I understand your suggestion correctly, it would work as such.
If you rate Bluddwolf low with your company, then his rating will be low with all companies of your settlement and all of their unendorsed venture companies as well.
It would also provide you with a list of all of Bluddwolf's settlement associations, venture company associations, and so on....
This type of data mining is unacceptable to me. It would inappropriate allow you to rate all of my associates based on my actions alone.
If the Seventh Veil wishes to ban an individual or a company / settlement population from your settlement, that is your business. But knowing all of the venture companies and other associations are not.
I would imagine that is such an automated system were to be implemented that we could easily create chaos for you, by having each of my members to join different venture companies and generate such a huge web that you would likely end up barring the entire server with your data.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would imagine that is such an automated system were to be implemented that we could easily create chaos for you, by having each of my members to join different venture companies and generate such a huge web that you would likely end up barring the entire server with your data.
That is the first bit of content you have offered that I find interesting. Sold.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would also provide you with a list of all of Bluddwolf's settlement associations, venture company associations, and so on....
i woudn`t like that either, but, i haven`t seen it proposed so far, where does that come from?
...what i`d like is a way to see how members of my companie/s rate a character i come into contact with.
as, in: oh, i`ve hear your name before, let me try to remember(checking rep status)..ahhh! it`s YOU!! Keep away from me!!!/ or Die fiend! -whatever is apropriate to the character