Hi all,
A few friends and I are trying to get into P&P and I've decided to GM (we tried a year or so with 4e and it fell apart pretty quickly for a few reasons). I'm trying to make the game fun for everyone, but things tend to go off course when everyone's not in combat.
For example, we're playing through the included adventure in the B.Box and after the first encounter everyone moves to the room with the chest. PC1 tries to open it and fails his DC, so PC2 decides to try unlocking it and fails, then on to PC3 and so on until someone rolls a 15. Same deal with identifying the potion. Anyone have advice on how I can deal with this before it gets out of hand? Perhaps even more of a general question too; how can I make the non-combat game flow better?
Thanks!
I'm not really sure what you mean by it getting out of hand. There's no real reason multiple PCs can't try to do the same thing, in the rules or in the simulation. I mean, think about it - you try to pick a lock, but you can't, so you get your friend to give it a try. Why not? They do spend some extra time doing this, so if there's an urgency to their mission, then you could urge them to hurry it along, but if there's no particular time limit, why not let them give it a shot?
Also, on a nitpicky note, I should point out that you a single character can always just try again to pick a lock. Nothing's stopping the same character from sitting there all day trying, although they should usually take 20 after a couple of tries, or they actually might be there all day.
As for making the non-combat flow better - that's a little vague. Are you running into any specific problems? Is it just that your skill checks are taking a long time because everyone isn't too sure of what all their bonuses add up to? If that is the case, I've found that taking a little time to make sure everyone understands what everything on their character sheet means can speed things up considerably. Sure, you'll use up an hour of potential gaming time, but in the long run, you'll save yourself a lot of headache if everyone knows the basics of what their numbers mean.
Hmm, I see your point. Someone could just sit all day and try to pick a lock. In that same vain someone could also irreparably damage a lock while attempting to pick it, no? Breaking it so they'd have no choice but to beat the chest open, right?
As for the flow, the problem is partially with me I guess too. I try steering them in the right direction, but I guess I could work on it. I mean I think it gets to the point that no one really knows what to do next. I just don't think everyone's in the mind set that they can try to do ANYTHING really. I tried to pint out that there were the two bedding piles in the room with the chest too without beating them over the head and saying "Someone might want to search the bedding". Is it just on them and 'oh well' or should I be a little more blunt in the beginning until everyone gets the idea you think?
There are a couple of schools of thought about whether it's worth "beating your players over the head" with things. My personal take is that if the gains the players will make are not important to the plot, they lose out on any treasure they don't search the right place for. If it is plot-related, I'll mention it more than once (usually three times), but will try to not draw any special attention to it.
One thing I think every new group should consider is how they want to treat the Take 10/Take 20.
Many groups benefit from making them the standard.
Take 10 can be used any time you can focus enough to do something systematically. It takes no extra time and can be done when there is consequence for failure. It can usually not be used in combat or when someone is actively trying to hurt you. You treat it as if the d20 roll came up on a 10.
Take 20 can be used any time you can retry something until you succeed. It takes 20 times as long (so often it takes 2 minutes since there's 10 rounds in a minute) and cannot be done if there's consequence for failure. You treat it like the d20 roll came up on 20.
For example, when trying to open an untrapped chest such as the example above you can take 20 or 10 depending on how much time you want to spend. When jumping over a chasm you can take 10 (since you can focus and no-one's trying to kill you) but not 20 (since failure can mean you fall into the chasm). If some goblins are firing upon you when you jump you cannot take 10 and must roll.
Personally I've added as a houserule to this "take 1", this is what I use for skills when they're not actively used, for example perception when noone's trying to hear something.
On getting them to go in the right direction, you can increase the amount of clues around, especially in the first few adventures. Tell them right out "I'll be using more clues than is written in the adventure for now, but later on I'll stop doing that so you'll have to learn how to figure things out".
Also, you might want to consider giving hints through knowledge or profession checks.
Hmm, I see your point. Someone could just sit all day and try to pick a lock. In that same vain someone could also irreparably damage a lock while attempting to pick it, no? Breaking it so they'd have no choice but to beat the chest open, right?
Not sure about the begginer box rules but for the normal rules, disable device has a penalty for failing by more then 5. If you fail by more then 5 something is supposed to go wrong, so letting the lock jam and making it unpickable is fine if they fail by that much.
Potions or items being identified there is no downside, except each person can only attempt it once per day so its not like it will go on forever.
As for the flow, the problem is partially with me I guess too. I try steering them in the right direction, but I guess I could work on it. I mean I think it gets to the point that no one really knows what to do next. I just don't think everyone's in the mind set that they can try to do ANYTHING really. I tried to pint out that there were the two bedding piles in the room with the chest too without beating them over the head and saying "Someone might want to search the bedding". Is it just on them and 'oh well' or should I be a little more blunt in the beginning until everyone gets the idea you think?
Modules in general dont follow this, but it really is true. As a dm, anything the players need to know or need to find should follow the three clue rule. Basically there should be 3 seperate chances for the pcs to get that information.
Many groups benefit from making [Take 10/Take 20] the standard.
Take 10 can be used any time you can focus enough to do something systematically. It takes no extra time and can be done when there is consequence for failure. It can usually not be used in combat or when someone is actively trying to hurt you. You treat it as if the d20 roll came up on a 10.Take 20 can be used any time you can retry something until you succeed. It takes 20 times as long (so often it takes 2 minutes since there's 10 rounds in a minute) and cannot be done if there's consequence for failure. You treat it like the d20 roll came up on 20.
Taking 10 and taking 20 isn't included in the Beginner Box rules, but as Ilja says, it's very handy for keeping gameplay moving, if you want to add it to your game. Here's a link to the rule text, for reference.
And Kolokotroni, Disable Device still has that risk in the Beginner Box, so you're right, taking 20 wouldn't apply there.
Excellent, thanks for all the info. I missed the risk on Disable Device too, Thanks for pointing that out.
Our plan is to use the Beginner Box as a stepping stone to the full rule set, so implementing take 10/20 shouldn't be a problem either.
Again, thanks all!
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If it ever did get out of hand, you might lean on your players to do a bit of roleplaying, too. If, for example, the wizard couldn't identify it, would the fighter know he rolled too low? Or would he probably just think, "hmm that must be tough to identify"?
Try and think of your characters as people, if that helps.
Food for thought.
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I think the key here is that your group is new. With experience they will learn the "usual" way of doing things and how things work in most fantasy adventures. Don't worry about guiding them to look at stuff like the bedding or remind them of the existence of secret doors. Heck they might not even know they exist! If after a few adventures they are still relying on your hints then stop. By that point they should have run into enough hidden treasure, traps, secret doors, etc. to know what to look for.
i think there is a bit of logic to it, and you can add some fun as well. If they fail to open it by 5 or 10 it breaks. Otherwise I would say you can have 3 rolls after that you just arent able to open it.
Identifying something. Once you fail you cannot figure it out. try again the next day. If they fail by 10 they think it is something else.
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You: "As you enter the room a wounded goblin crawls across the floor and with his last breath reaches out towards a bedding pile and gasps 'My treas-argh!' There are 2 bedding piles in the room, one of them has a blanket on the top with a pattern that looks like 'hint, hint'. Someone has written on the wall in 6ft letters 'SEARCH ME' with a big arrow pointing to the bedding pile."
Party: "Ok, nothing to see here, let's move on quickly"
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Another school of thought on "what should we do" moments is to just assume they do the right thing in most circumstances. For example, if the party enters a room with some bedding, and any party members says anything to the effect of "What's here" or "I look around", just tell them what they find in the bedding!
For many people it is difficult to accurately picture their surroundings based on a brief description by the GM. Also, rather than being immersed in the game world, the players are in a room full of friends with books and character sheets stacked around them. Waiting for someone to say, "I look under the bed" is a losing battle.
Taking 10 and taking 20 isn't included in the Beginner Box rules, but as Ilja says, it's very handy for keeping gameplay moving, if you want to add it to your game. Here's a link to the rule text, for reference.
And Kolokotroni, Disable Device still has that risk in the Beginner Box, so you're right, taking 20 wouldn't apply there.
Actually, Disable Device to open a lock is one of the examples given in the book for using take 20 rules.
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps)
No, but here is the explanation of the aid another rule in the Core Rulebook.
As far as things like IDing the potions, instead of 'I'll try. I failed ...' 'Let me try!' and so on down the line, just tell everybody who's going to try it to make all their rolls at the same time.
One thing that helps is not having any ability scores that have negative modifiers or even less than 12-13 with +1 modifier. these are heroes, not average people so they should have above average scores in everything. if you roll ability scores like 9 or 6. just reroll 4d6 until you are satisfied with the number. I won't take less than a 12 on any ability score. period. that means a +1 modifier on all skills, regardless.
WOW...while I can see where that could be fun...especially if the group is all into superheroes...I think it also sort of defeats some of the purpose of team play.
In our current group, 4 of the 6 have at least one score that gives them a negative modifier...and all of them have a few of their stats that are under 12 (they also have stats that are over 12...they have modifiers that equal into the positives overall...but not all of their stats are high).
Part of being in the group is learning to play as a team. Each team member has their own strengths and weaknesses, but together, they are strong.
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As for the flow, the problem is partially with me I guess too. I try steering them in the right direction, but I guess I could work on it. I mean I think it gets to the point that no one really knows what to do next.
Much of what was said above addressing this concern is bang on, I think one of the things to keep in mind, since both you, and your group are new to this, is that an experienced group will often have a standard operating procedure, they know what kind of things to look for, and how to interpret common clues. Hand holding is not required, and usually you have the other problem, of knowing which way the plot is going, and going a completely different way just because.
My point, is that you should feel free, as you have access to more information then they do, to suggest, hint, or out right tell them what to do when they get stuck. Not as a hammer "Hey guys your doing it wrong," but in the spirit of enjoyment, and learning. As you improve with your GMing over time, they will come to understand their role in the collaborative story telling experience that is p&p, and things will flow more smoothly, but even experienced GMs bungle from time to time, and have to handwave a massive player killing error away.
Just focus on rule zero, "have fun," if your finding a part of the game is running poorly, or isn't, change it up, if you get stuck, point folks in the right direction.
Going a step further, if you have any organized play happening in your area (Pathfinder Society) give it a try, I've expanded by playing group through PFS, learned a lot to improve my GMing style, and had a lot of fun.