What I think is silly is that Druids have easy and/or exclusive access to a bunch of things that would be neat toys for martials. Things like Pounce, Trip, Grab...Maybe that which Beast Shape can access should be on the menu for martials too.
What I think is silly is that Druids have easy and/or exclusive access to a bunch of things that would be neat toys for martials. Things like Pounce, Trip, Grab...Maybe that which Beast Shape can access should be on the menu for martials too.
Barbarians and Beastmorph Vivisectionists can get pounce
as can quadruped eidolons
and feline animal companions
It's hard for druids to keep there to-hit up.
Their massive strength bonus is off set by the size penalties 3/4 BAB, probably worse base strength, and the lack of feats and weapon training.
EDIT: at high-mid and high levels
Weapon training, Weapon focus, greater weapon focus, and full BAB.Needing 2-3 buff spells to get close is sad.
That's actually 1 buff spell and 2 swift action class features
Your still behind after taking 2 rounds to get up to speed.
Considering outsider and advance undead tend to rock spell casters,
When our level 10 party had to fight a lich it was the witch who kept it from killing half our party. Sure, the martials did most of the hp damage but without the witch the lich would have used his nasty spells to kill them.
How did the witch do that? With fly + call the void. As the "can't speak or cast spells with verbal components" has no save it works on undead. So wow, what we had left was a lich who tried to outmaneuver the flying witch to be able to cast something.
Incoporeal undead just have a miss chance.Not really, just half damage
Unless you meet them before you get your first magic weapon. Then they are immune.
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Weapon training, Weapon focus, greater weapon focus, and full BAB.Needing 2-3 buff spells to get close is sad.
Inquisitor bas weapon focus too.
So it's really GWF and weapon training, plus Full BAB. That's 6 ponts at level 12, which is what the inquisitor gets with judgement (+3) solo tactics (+2) and Bane Weapon (+2). I'm already above the fighter and I haven't cast a spell yet. With a spell like divine power, I'm 3-4 points above the fighter. With a single spell.Not to mention that I can intimidate much better, can track, have better skills, can heal, buff party members, I'm the highst perception char in the party, and have a huge initiative bonus.
It's hard for druids to keep there to-hit up.
Their massive strength bonus is off set by the size penalties 3/4 BAB, probably worse base strength, and the lack of feats and weapon training.
EDIT: at high-mid and high levels
but itterative attacks from fighter get diminishing returns. The 5 attacks of the allosaurios are all of them at max bonus.
And there's no reason a melee druid has starting less STR than a fighter. You keep seeing it wrong. You are building a caster who tries fo do something else. It doesn't work that way. You build a melee character (or skill monkey) which happen to cast spells.
Once you have your cleric, wizard, and bard, you need a tanky melee char. So you build one. Which could be a fighter.... or a druid. If you build the druid, you'll get a companion and spells for free.
Your still behind after taking 2 rounds to get up to speed.
that's actually no round of delay to be equal to the fighter. With 1 round of casting you are above the fighter. And if you can pre-buff, you are heads and shouldr above the figther. Not to mention that you can dispel magic, buff, debuff, heal, restorate, use wands, have skills...
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Weapon training, Weapon focus, greater weapon focus, and full BAB.Needing 2-3 buff spells to get close is sad.
Inquisitor bas weapon focus too.
So it's really GWF and weapon training, plus Full BAB. That's 6 ponts at level 12, which is what the inquisitor gets with judgement (+3) solo tactics (+2) and Bane Weapon (+2). I'm already above the fighter and I haven't cast a spell yet. With a spell like divine power, I'm 3-4 points above the fighter. With a single spell.Not to mention that I can intimidate much better, can track, have better skills, can heal, buff party members, I'm the highst perception char in the party, and have a huge initiative bonus.
I'm pretty sure the fighter has a magic weapon too.
Your still behind after taking 2 rounds to get up to speed.
1 round of buffing, max. Then after you only need your swift actions to boost yourself.
The Bane Weapon is not a magic weapon, its an Inquisitor Class feature starting at 5th level. It is significantly better than the Bane Magic Weapon Property, because the Inquisitor's Bane ability is Bane "The thing you are fighting right now".
It's hard for druids to keep there to-hit up.
Their massive strength bonus is off set by the size penalties 3/4 BAB, probably worse base strength, and the lack of feats and weapon training.
EDIT: at high-mid and high levels
but itterative attacks from fighter get diminishing returns. The 5 attacks of the allosaurios are all of them at max bonus.
And there's no reason a melee druid has starting less STR than a fighter. You keep seeing it wrong. You are building a caster who tries fo do something else. It doesn't work that way. You build a melee character (or skill monkey) which happen to cast spells.
Once you have your cleric, wizard, and bard, you need a tanky melee char. So you build one. Which could be a fighter.... or a druid. If you build the druid, you'll get a companion and spells for free.
If you build a fighter, you do more damage and don't cry at DR. Oh I admit a druid is a great add to the party. He off tanks and keeps the DM from making AC on everything ridiculous, and cast and does all sorts of things. But main martial is not the best role or even better than a fighter.
I'm pretty sure the fighter has a magic weapon too..
Weapon training, Weapon focus, greater weapon focus, and full BAB.Needing 2-3 buff spells to get close is sad.
Inquisitor bas weapon focus too.
So it's really GWF and weapon training, plus Full BAB. That's 6 ponts at level 12, which is what the inquisitor gets with judgement (+3) solo tactics (+2) and Bane Weapon (+2). I'm already above the fighter and I haven't cast a spell yet. With a spell like divine power, I'm 3-4 points above the fighter. With a single spell.Not to mention that I can intimidate much better, can track, have better skills, can heal, buff party members, I'm the highst perception char in the party, and have a huge initiative bonus.
sure. As big as the inquisitor. The fighter gets a +4 flaming burst greatsword? So does the inquisitor, who is the same level and have the same WBL. And THEN the insitor gives his sword the Bane quality, for an EXTRA +2 The only differences are class features. Like judgement, bane, Greater bane, solo tactics, etc.
And spells, of course.
The Bane Weapon is not a magic weapon, its an Inquisitor Class feature starting at 5th level. It is significantly better than the Bane Magic Weapon Property, because the Inquisitor's Bane ability is Bane "The thing you are fighting right now".
And I'm sure there is a limit on it then like on all the other stuff he mentioned. Which defeats the purpose of a martial.
Never seen a Hippo do 300 damage with one attack have you? That DR must be a real problem...
It's hard for druids to keep there to-hit up.
Their massive strength bonus is off set by the size penalties 3/4 BAB, probably worse base strength, and the lack of feats and weapon training.
EDIT: at high-mid and high levels
but itterative attacks from fighter get diminishing returns. The 5 attacks of the allosaurios are all of them at max bonus.
And there's no reason a melee druid has starting less STR than a fighter. You keep seeing it wrong. You are building a caster who tries fo do something else. It doesn't work that way. You build a melee character (or skill monkey) which happen to cast spells.
Once you have your cleric, wizard, and bard, you need a tanky melee char. So you build one. Which could be a fighter.... or a druid. If you build the druid, you'll get a companion and spells for free.
If you build a fighter, you do more damage and don't cry at DR. Oh I admit a druid is a great add to the party. He off tanks and keeps the DM from making AC on everything ridiculous, and cast and does all sorts of things. But main martial is not the best role or even better than a fighter.
why do you cry at DR with a druid? Not only AMF work perfectly for that, but you get a ton of maneuvers like trip, grab, trample, etc for free which keep you relevant even if you can't pierce the DR for some reason. And you can summon, cast flamestrike, etc. All of that while your companion does the job of being a body in front of the wizard for free.
Druid plus martial is great! Druids can easily fill the divine caster roll. Not having a martial will hurt though. Starting with 14 wis and putting no level point into it will hurt.
A Druid buffing himself and i his animal camp is a force to be reckoned with, but still ends up doing the slightly less than real martials.
The Bane Weapon is not a magic weapon, its an Inquisitor Class feature starting at 5th level. It is significantly better than the Bane Magic Weapon Property, because the Inquisitor's Bane ability is Bane "The thing you are fighting right now".And I'm sure there is a limit on it then like on all the other stuff he mentioned. Which defeats the purpose of a martial.
Yes there's a limit. If your party is fighting more than 10 encounters per day, 4 of them against bosses, it might matter.
Seriously, read the class. You are dishing it without even knowing how it works.
You are right that the party needs a "melee focused" char that does tge mop up once the casters have trivialized everything through spells. But you are utterly wrong in your believe that this melee char has to be a martial char. Summoners, druids, battle oracles, fighting clerics, magus, alchemists and inquisitors can be built to do the job. Actually, the eidolon and animal companion can do the job if properly geared.
What I think is silly is that Druids have easy and/or exclusive access to a bunch of things that would be neat toys for martials. Things like Pounce, Trip, Grab...Maybe that which Beast Shape can access should be on the menu for martials too.Barbarians (Martial)and Beastmorph Vivisectionists (Caster) can get pounce
as can quadruped eidolons i](Caster)[/i]
and feline animal companions (Caster)
I categorized it. I guess the inferior Ranger companion can also be a cat and they can take Boon Companion to catch up. But I don't feel like animals (be they companions or summoned) are really the same as the heroes. I'd want to have Pounce (and trip, and grab, etc) on my primary guy to feel like he's the badass. I don't want to be upstaged by my pet if I'm going into melee as well.
Druid plus martial is great! Druids can easily fill the divine caster roll. Not having a martial will hurt though. Starting with 14 wis and putting no level point into it will hurt.
A Druid buffing himself and i his animal camp is a force to be reckoned with, but still ends up doing the slightly less than real martials.
You can start with wis 14 and never put a point on it. Headband of wisdom cover your needs.
And a dire tiger druid+dire tiger companion+awakened dire tiger+summoned dire tiger do more damage than a fighter. And cover a LOT more of front line to keep rangeds and casters safe.
Even better the Inquisitor never bothers buying an item with more than a +3. Bane will bump it up to +5 so it goes through DR. Greater Magic Weapon will eventually give you the remaining +2 hit/damage saving you a chunk of gold the fighter cant avoid spending.sure. As big as the inquisitor. The fighter gets a +4 flaming burst greatsword? So does the inquisitor, who is the same level and have the same WBL. And THEN the insitor gives his sword the Bane quality, for an EXTRA +2 The only differences are class features. Like judgement, bane, Greater bane, solo tactics, etc.
And spells, of course.
Or even better... never put more than a +1 Bonus on your weapon and dump the remaining 9 points of enhancement into Special abilities for an effectively +14 weapon. An Inquisitor gets Caster Level = CL so the 12th Level Inquisitor will have a +3 Magic weapon without spending a gold. Best of all Inquisitor's Magic Weapon, Greater is a 3rd level spell and extendable with a Metamagic Rod, Extend Lesser, making it last 24 hours at level 12. If you are willing to have a Bead of Karma crafted, you'll get an additional +1 bonus to your magic weapon as well as tacking 8 hours onto the duration.
The Bane Weapon is not a magic weapon, its an Inquisitor Class feature starting at 5th level. It is significantly better than the Bane Magic Weapon Property, because the Inquisitor's Bane ability is Bane "The thing you are fighting right now".
and adds +4d6 damage at the proper level.
So a Inquisitor will be adding +7 to hit and +4d6+7 damage from class features (no spell cast) while the fighter adds +4 to hit and +7 to damage from class features.
We're talking about level 10 right?
Fighter has a +20 to hit with power attack and averages 32 damage not including criticals.
Inquisitor are screwed, we all know that. Theya re second line in my to-nerf list after summoners. Why don't you try that with like the magus or the bard?
Summoners are not OP* Or any of their archetypes.
We're talking about level 10 right?
Fighter has a +20 to hit with power attack and averages 32 damage not including criticals.
we are talking about level 12. Make the calculations of the average character and then we do the same with a druid, summoner and inquisitor if you want. Using fairly standard builds (no six armed eidolons with gunslinger feats and six revolvers and such, just standard stuff)
You can but GMW doesn't count for bypassing DR. A +3 weapon which you apply Bane to gets through anything bar -/epic. Of course Inquisitors also have other spells to get through alignment DR such as Align Weapon so it isn't strictly necessary but it helps reduce the buff time you need.Or even better... never put more than a +1 Bonus on your weapon and dump the remaining 9 points of enhancement into Special abilities for an effectively +14 weapon. An Inquisitor gets Caster Level = CL so the 12th Level Inquisitor will have a +3 Magic weapon without spending a gold. Best of all Inquisitor's Magic Weapon, Greater is a 3rd level spell and extendable with a Metamagic Rod, Extend Lesser, making it last 24 hours at level 12. If you are willing to have a Bead of Karma crafted, you'll get an additional +1 bonus to your magic weapon as well as tacking 8 hours onto the duration.
GMW doesn't but a +1 Furious X should in the hands of an Anger Inquisition Inquisitor (say that 5 times fast eh?) should get through. A +1 Furious Courageous X is only a +3 magic weapon that you make into a +5/+6 weapon with a 12th level Inquisitor (and your STR is going to go up another 2...)
So how is this addressing the OP question?
Back to OP: one of the things that I see that causes the flip to happen in real games (as opposed to the theories of) is the open ended wealth and a lack of applying the restrictions to arcane casters that are already in the game. Divine casters have less financial restrictions, and more of a moral restriction built into the class.
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I always roll my eyes at the "caster superiority is just theorycrafting" arguments-- as if none of the dozens of people making this argument have ever played a game. I also feel like these discussions always move the goalposts. I think most "pro-caster" people are making the argument that, properly applied, magic can solve *most* problems in a game *more efficiently* than alternative methods (skills, pointy sticks).
The "anti-caster" arguments often come across as "well your caster can't solve EVERY problem ALL OF THE TIME, so the game's balanced". Well yeah, full casters can do anything, but not everything. I'm not sure how this makes them weaker, but to each their own, I suppose. This leaves the martial classes to solve problems that casters have not deigned to waste resources on, i.e. have relegated them to support classes.
And really, the "pro-martial" arguments rely on just as much theorycrafting. In this thread, the notion of a "flip" relies on ideas that casters run out of spells/finite resources. After playing a low-level wizard, I just don't see it. Cast Sleep, hit 3 guys, say 2 of them fail their saves. This outcome is hardly theorycrafting, it happens all the time. Now 2 guys are dropped with 1 spell (for all purposes). Much more efficient than a martial class in combat. This isn't even optimization, it's just the ability to recognize that Sleep is awesome at low levels and choosing to take the spell. How is this pie-in-the-sky theory?
"But spell slots are limited", you say. Alright, sure. This is a problem at low levels, but it assumes things like 4 encounters/day. Personally, a lot of my DMs have trouble with the 4 encounters/day paradigm. Combat just takes too long and detracts from the story too much to fit 4 encounters into a session. And a lot of stories just don't lend themselves to "4 fights before sleeping". Sometimes you have time pressures associated with them, but some plots just don't. You can't add these artificial fiats to prevent casters from resting to regain spells without these fiats eventually becoming contrived ("Oh look, another race against the clock story. For the sixth week on a row. Sigh"). In the game I play (a real game, no less!) we're usually good for 2, maybe 3 encounters before resting, and often it's just the one fight. Your experiences might be different, of course. But I feel that the caster/martial design choices were made in an era where many D&D adventures were dungeon crawls. In my experience, though, dungeon crawls and sessions with many combats/day are pretty rare. In games with political intrigue or mysteries to solve, it's a lot harder to fit enough fights into a session to make a caster rue the lack of spell slots.
And casters aren't the only classes that have limited resource issues. Paladins have the same problems, with limited Smite Evil and Lay on Hands. Barbarians only have so many rage rounds at lower levels. Monks and Ninjas spend ki to do a lot of class features. The idea that martials can operate at peak efficiency 24/7 is really only true for some classes-- fighter or a rogue, perhaps. Until his hp run out, I suppose.
So again, I maintain that there's no "flip" that takes place. There's not really any point in which a caster is significantly outclasses by a non-caster class. The opposite cannot be said-- martial classes can be inferior to martial classes at very low levels (rogue vs. bard, for example).
False.
Good argument!
Good argument!
Thanks. I spent hours on it.
When an Inquisitor or pure martial hits something, there is no counter other than not being hit.
Sincerely... you must be joking?
I would guess that, objectively speaking, there are likely more different ways to avoid getting hit than there are ways to avoid any other single thing in the game.
There's DR, but yeah martial "I hit it with my sword" is the most effective and efficient damage dealing tactic in the game.
Bow lacks good attribute synergy. They be MAD yo.
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Bow lacks good attribute synergy. They be MAD yo.
Discounting the ways to get Dex to damage, including the Agile weapon enhancement and taking five levels of Gunslinger, does it not say something that even though archer martials are somewhat multiple attribute dependent, they still manage to outdamage melee martials?
I am not really arguing the "theory crafting" as you put it. From every well run game that I have participated in, the availability of the wizard having access to any spell that they want is limited. I realize that many games give unlimited access to resources in game, but do not see that . . . well, almost never in local games. Heck, even most AP's do not give unlimited downtime for the casters to sit around and learn every spell that they will ever need. The world goes on when the characters stop to do things other than adventuring or being heroes or whatever.
I am also not arguing the "casters run out of spells", but more the casters cannot possibly have all the perfect spells memorized at the most appropriate time.
Also, most groups that I have seen expect the casters to conserve spells for real need, not wasting spells when the martials have things in hand. Therefore, resting happens in logical timing, not just because the casters have run out of spells. I would also point out that most (if not all) AP's have numerous dungeon crawls.
All in all, Magic Butterfly, I agree with you. I just think we have different experiences in the games we play in. In a well run campaign, there will be no flip, as it is a group game and all the classes will have an important role to play.
Perfect spell? Outside of Paragon Surgers probably not. A spell that is "good enough"? Almost always (assuming the player has a certain amount of system mastery). In particular, the Summon Monster line is a massive amount of versatility. Is it the best damage spell? No, but it works quite well for it. The best battlefield control? Probably not, but it does the job. Gives lots utility? The number of spell-likes and other Special abilities you can get is nothing to sneeze at; buffs, debuffs, dispels, healing, etc.
Will all campaigns experience the flip? Of course not. Not all people playing casters have the system mastery to cause a flip, some agree not to, others don't find it fun, etc. but its not going to be a guaranteed experience. That being said once a player does realize it I find they fill in the reasons why fairly quickly. I still remember when the guy playing a Monk in my one campaign realized how useless he was compared to the party Wizard.
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Perfect spell? Outside of Paragon Surgers probably not. A spell that is "good enough"? Almost always (assuming the player has a certain amount of system mastery). In particular, the Summon Monster line is a massive amount of versatility. Is it the best damage spell? No, but it works quite well for it. The best battlefield control? Probably not, but it does the job. Gives lots utility? The number of spell-likes and other Special abilities you can get is nothing to sneeze at; buffs, debuffs, dispels, healing, etc.
Will all campaigns experience the flip? Of course not. Not all people playing casters have the system mastery to cause a flip, some agree not to, others don't find it fun, etc. but its not going to be a guaranteed experience. That being said once a player does realize it I find they fill in the reasons why fairly quickly. I still remember when the guy playing a Monk in my one campaign realized how useless he was compared to the party Wizard.
It's kind of sad when a player looks at their character, compares it to another and feels that way. Hopefully he got over that feeling and learned to play to his character's strengths. Focusing on what others can or can't do instead of focusing on their own merits serves no good.
It was a monk though... Monks are not martials or skill monkeys
You can make them martials just like you can make caster a martial. It takes a lot of optimization.
Mainly dragon style.
Regardless they end up very subpar. They are one of the better classes for killing casters, but little else.
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Regardless they end up very subpar. They are one of the better classes for killing casters, but little else.
They're not. They're really not. They are, however, quite proficient at making casters throw up their hands, say "f*ck it, I have better things to do", and teleport away after half a dozen rounds or so of not being able to affect the Monk while at the same time avoiding all the Monk's attempts at trying to harm them.
Considering my experience with a 3.5 fighter was better than with a pathfinder monk...