I realize that, while awesome and versatile, a slightly increased evo pool and a greater ability to divide it between summoner and eidolon don't exactly equal the power lost from summon monster and gate. I do however think it will still be an awesome method of playing a summoner.
Also instead of granting behavioral study, I think I will just grant the witch's familiar mechanic to the eidolon and make them and int caster. I feel playing it that way would be more thematic.
+5 Toaster, do you want to post the full version of your current draft, I'd like to look it over.
ok here goes draft #1
Bloodborn
Unlike most summoners, the Bloodborn do not gain their abilities through pacts and deals with extraplanar beings. Instead, through rigorous study, they learn to harness the potential found in their heritage instead. Every Bloodborn is bound to a physical manifestation of their true nature, known as an Aberrant Eidolon.
Student of the Form: A Bloodborn must prepare his spells on the beginning of every day. He prepares these spells by consulting his eidolon every morning. This functions in all ways the same as a witches spellcasting mechanic, with the eidolon functioning as the witches familiar. In addition all spellcasting use Intelligence instead of Charisma to determine DC's, bonus spells, etc. This modifies spells.
Aberrant Eidolon: Change the eidolon's hit dice to d8s. In addition the eidolon now has a base attack bonus progression equal to a Rogue of a level equal to the eidolon's hit dice. The eidolon receives a -2 penalty to it's Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma Scores. In exchange the eidolon increases it's natural armor by 2 and receives a bonus to Constitution equal to half the current Str/Dex bonus granted by levels of eidolon. In addition the eidolon receives an additional Evolution Point at 1st level and every odd summoner level. This modifies the Eidolon Class Feature.
Evolving State: This functions as the Aspect Class feature except all evolutions granted follow the restrictions of the Evolved Blood Racial Trait. At 3rd level and every odd numbered level after, you may increase the number of evolutions transferred by this class feature by 1. This replaces the Summon Monster (any) and Gate spell-like abilities.
Unlocked Access: The Bloodborn Summoner removes some limitations from his own abilities. At 10th level, the Bloodborn Summoner no longer has restrictions on which 1 to 2 point evolutions they can take for themselves. In addition they now receive the full benefits for having skilled evolution. This replaces Aspect.
Greater Unlocked Access: At 18th level, the Bloodborn Summoner may choose 3 and 4 point evolutions when choosing evolutions to apply to themselves. This replaces Greater Aspect.
That's interesting.
I'm tempted to suggest make it Wis-based casting (but that's mostly because there isn't a Wis-based Arcane caster :P)
I'm don't think Aberrant Eidolon is that fair;
You're dropping the HD (average HP drops from 5.5 per HD to 4.5 per HD) but increasing Con (up to a max of +4, which will give +2 HP/HD) - that gives a net increase in HP and Fort saves.
You're gaining an extra 10 evolution points, that's enough to buy Ability Increase three times (for each mental stat) and still have enough points to buy pounce and another pair of limbs with claws. Granted it'll have 3/4 BAB, so you could alway divert it into a skill monkey or scout, still it seems powerful.
Aspect: I'd change to "you may increase the number of evolution points transferred"
Good point, mostly i just wanted to make it feel a bit more unique. I think dropping the nat armor bonus is a good start, i do want to keep the con bonus and evo points for thematic reasons. Maybe make the con match the str/dex value, which are now half normal. In addition they have less maximum natural attacks, 1 at 1, 2 at 6, 3 at 12, and 4 at 18.
round 2
Bloodborn (Summoner Archetype)
Student of the Form: A Bloodborn must prepare his spells on the beginning of every day. He prepares these spells by consulting his eidolon every morning. This functions in all ways the same as a witches spellcasting mechanic, with the eidolon functioning as the witches familiar. In addition all spellcasting use Intelligence instead of Charisma to determine DC's, bonus spells, etc. This modifies spells.
Aberrant Eidolon: Change the eidolon's hit dice to d8s. In addition the eidolon now has a base attack bonus progression equal to a Rogue of a level equal to the eidolon's hit dice. The eidolon receives a -2 penalty to it's Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma Scores and only gains half the str/dex bonus from leveling. The eidolon starts off with only 1 maximum natural attack, with one additional natural attack for every 6 levels. In exchange receives a bonus to Constitution Str/Dex bonus granted by levels of eidolon. In addition the eidolon receives an additional Evolution Point at 1st level and every odd summoner level. This modifies the Eidolon Class Feature.
Evolving State: This functions as the Aspect Class feature except all evolutions granted follow the restrictions of the Evolved Blood Racial Trait. At 3rd level and every odd numbered level after, you may increase the number of evolutions transferred by this class feature by 1. This replaces the Summon Monster (any) and Gate spell-like abilities.
Unlocked Access: The Bloodborn Summoner removes some limitations from his own abilities. At 10th level, the Bloodborn Summoner no longer has restrictions on which 1 to 2 point evolutions they can take for themselves. In addition they now receive the full benefits for having skilled evolution. This replaces Aspect.
Greater Unlocked Access: At 18th level, the Bloodborn Summoner may choose 3 and 4 point evolutions when choosing evolutions to apply to themselves. This replaces Greater Aspect.
comparing to the wild caller archetype, I think this is a bit better.
round 3 (forgot to remove redundant part, nice catch Alfray)
Bloodborn (Summoner Archetype)
Student of the Form: A Bloodborn must prepare his spells on the beginning of every day. He prepares these spells by consulting his eidolon every morning, functioning the same way as the witche's familiar class ability. The Bloodborn uses the same spells per day and spells known mechanic of the Magus (see table 1.1 of ultimate Magic). In addition all spellcasting use Intelligence instead of Charisma to determine DC's, bonus spells, etc. This modifies spells.
Aberrant Eidolon: Change the eidolon's hit dice to d8s. In addition the eidolon now has a base attack bonus progression equal to a Rogue of a level equal to the eidolon's hit dice. The eidolon receives a -2 penalty to it's Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma Scores and only gains half the str/dex bonus from leveling. The eidolon starts off with only 1 maximum natural attack, with one additional natural attack for every 6 levels. In exchange receives a bonus to Constitution Str/Dex bonus granted by levels of eidolon. In addition the eidolon receives an additional Evolution Point at 1st level and every odd summoner level. This modifies the Eidolon Class Feature.
Evolving State: This functions as the Aspect Class feature except all evolutions granted follow the restrictions of the Evolved Blood Racial Trait. At 3rd level and every odd numbered level after, you may increase the number of evolutions transferred by 1. This replaces the Summon Monster (any) and Gate spell-like abilities.
Unlocked Access: The Bloodborn Summoner removes some limitations from his own abilities. At 10th level, the Bloodborn Summoner no longer has restrictions on which 1 to 2 point evolutions they can take for themselves. In addition they now receive the full benefits for having skilled evolution. This replaces Aspect.
Greater Unlocked Access: At 18th level, the Bloodborn Summoner may choose 3 and 4 point evolutions when choosing evolutions to apply to themselves. This replaces Greater Aspect.
I do believe that removing the slas was a giant blow to this class, but I think the improved versatility and the lack of spellcasting stat dependance helps since many of their spells are buffs. I reduced the spellcasting to the magus progression, and I still prefer Intelligence over wisdom due to that strongly shoehorning them into this archetype. also wisdom casters automatically know all those spells(the exception being empyreal sorcerer), so in some ways I think it's a little stronger in an arcane class.
I do plan on a witch archetype as well, and at most one other (some kind of martial class).
I do plan on a witch archetype as well, and at most one other (some kind of martial class).
screw it, it's gonna be a monk. As much as I am against the whole "an archetype for this race must focus on this races ability modifiers" thing, I really love the idea of these guys reaching physical perfection and evolutions. I'll probably call it Monk of the Flowing Form. Give it a few extra evolution points, let it reduce the effort involved in changing evolutions, and whammo adaptable fighter.
All looking pretty good +5!!!
All looking pretty good +5!!!
thanks QSW, If the bloodborn is looking alright, I am probably gonna move on to the Twisted Bond witch archetype.
so...no problems spotted from the audience?
so on to witch considerations then, lets see I think I want something extremely minor and straightforward (like the bonded witch).
Would a combination of evolved familiar and evolved arcane bond at level 1 be worth a hex? Add in the option of either gaining a hex or increasing your evolutions by 1.
I'd say at least a hex. Not sure what you mean by options, I'll have more comments when you post it up...
Twisted Binder (Witch Archetype)
There are witches among the Warped who believe that their very nature is a contamination from the planes beyond. Twisting this concept for good or ill, they spread their natures to the very being most bonded to them.
Twisted Binder
Infected Familiar: At 1st level Twisted Binder gains both the evolved familiar and Evolved Arcane Bond. This replaces her 1st level hex.
Aggressive mutation: Whenever a witch would choose to gain a hex, they may instead increase the number of evolution points their familiar has by 1.
Really wanted to keep this one simple and straightforward. Then again most Witch Archetypes are anyways.
hmm what to trade for the monk archetype? I kinda wanna take from the eidolon directly and give them nat armor instead of a wis bonus.
Bump.
kinda wanna wait till the witch gets looked at...
@Twisted Binder: Not sure 1 evolution point really covers the awesomeness of a hex. I'd like to see what anyone else might think, but I would suggest at least 2 evo points for a hex and maybe more for a major/grand hex.
Of course I'd also be interested in seeing what a spell-less Witch with Evolved Familiar might gain in evolution points...
True nuff, how about the choice of losing a patron bonus spell to instead gain a number of evolution points equal to half the level of the spell. That's 21 points for all of them.
Hmm. Seems like too much, especially on top of any they are all getting. Now completely spell-less might be another matter...
Maybe we could poke some others into having a look...
while I like the idea of a spell-less witch (in fact I plan to start a thread showcasing my ideas on how to make it work), I don't necessarily think it works as a racial archetype for these guys. I am not even sure having a full eidolon as a familiar is worth 9 levels of spells. That being said I have an idea for a thematic revamp, taking some inspiration from the winter witch archetype, while scaling back the evolutions somewhat. This be in exchange for reduced spellcasting. Will post as soon as I can.
Twisted Pact Witch
Witches of the the twisted pact choose to draw their power from an outsider instead of their normal patron source, in a ritual resembling the one a summoner uses to form his bond. Such bonds always shift and mutate the familiar however, so many cease being recognisable from the creature they once were.
Bound Familiar: A Twisted Pact Witch receives both Improved Familiar and Evolved Familiar at first level. She must choose an outsider as a familiar, but she ignores any alignment prerequisites for that outsider. Outsiders bound in this way change their alignment to match that of the witch and lose any alignment subtypes they may have. This replaces the witches first level hex.
Evolving Bond: As a Twisted Pact Witch grows in power, her bond to her familiar intensifies. Such corruption alters the being in question. at 2nd level and every other level after, the familiar gains an additional 2 evolutions points to be added to their total. This functions as the Eidolons evolution pool class feature and is treated as such. This replaces the patron class feature.
Twisted Pact Witch
Witches of the the twisted pact choose to draw their power from an outsider instead of their normal patron source, in a ritual resembling the one a summoner uses to form his bond. Such bonds always shift and mutate the familiar however, so many cease being recognisable from the creature they once were.
Big fan of this archetype. I love witches, anyway, and this one is pretty neat. Keep up the great work!
Bound Familiar: A Twisted Pact Witch receives both Improved Familiar and Evolved Familiar at first level. She must choose an outsider as a familiar, but she ignores any alignment prerequisites for that outsider. Outsiders bound in this way change their alignment to match that of the witch and lose any alignment subtypes they may have. This replaces the witches first level hex.
A lot of the hexes are scaled, i.e. get X feature now, at 5th-12th level gain Y feature. They can't even use the "improved familiar" until 3rd level minimum, so why not go with this:
Bound Familiar: A Twisted Pact Witch receives Evolved Familiar at first level as a bonus feat.
At 3rd level, she receives Improved Familiar as a bonus feat. She must choose an outsider as a familiar, but she ignores any alignment prerequisites for that outsider. Outsiders bound in this way change their alignment to match that of the witch and lose any alignment subtypes they may have.
This replaces the witches first level hex.
Evolving Bond: As a Twisted Pact Witch grows in power, her bond to her familiar intensifies. Such corruption alters the being in question. at 2nd level and every other level after, the familiar gains an additional 2 evolutions points to be added to their total. This functions as the Eidolons evolution pool class feature and is treated as such. This replaces the patron class feature.
Patron spells seem like too "little" to give up - I can't see anyone not wanting to get rid of patron spells for 2 evolution points (I'd take that trade any day of the week). I'd recommend 1 evolution point every other level instead of 2 and allow them to select the extra evolutions as a feat with which to apply to their familiar.
Thanks da-ath when i get the chance i will incorporate those ideas , phone only atm.
Ok, I've read the race entry. How about making the evolution tiers accessible with their levels, like level 1 to 5 is 1-point evolution only, 6 to 10 is 2-point evolution, 11 to 15 is 3-point evolution and 16 to 20 is 4-point evolution?
I don't why an eidolon-touched shouldn't be able to grow claws, wings become large, immune to fire or whatever.
Thanks da-ath when i get the chance i will incorporate those ideas , phone only atm.
It's annoying to try and post on phones, I know your pain - also, glad I could help.
Ok, I've read the race entry. How about making the evolution tiers accessible with their levels, like level 1 to 5 is 1-point evolution only, 6 to 10 is 2-point evolution, 11 to 15 is 3-point evolution and 16 to 20 is 4-point evolution?
I don't why an eidolon-touched shouldn't be able to grow claws, wings become large, immune to fire or whatever.
I agree to a degree. I think the racial choices for evolutions should be limited to a pre-selected list by Toaster; however, I wouldn't bother with the external level limitations: evolutions already have a built in limitation in terms of the level it's available at, which has worked out just fine with my Sarkrith race (an evolution point-based race in my setting). I included a link so you can see what I mean about limiting the available evolutions.
I'll take those racial considerations into account, and will probably put a list together.
in the meantime, taking Da'ath's...(2 apostrophes make me uncomfortable for some reason)...suggestions, here is the new archetype
Twisted Pact Witch
Witches of the the twisted pact choose to draw their power from an outsider instead of their normal patron source, in a ritual resembling the one a summoner uses to form his bond. Such bonds always shift and mutate the familiar however, so many cease being recognisable from the creature they once were.
Bound Familiar: A Twisted Pact Witch receives Evolved Familiar at first level as a bonus feat.
At 3rd level, she receives Improved Familiar as a bonus feat. She must choose an outsider as a familiar, but she ignores any alignment prerequisites for that outsider. Outsiders bound in this way change their alignment to match that of the witch and lose any alignment subtypes they may have.
This replaces the witches first level hex.
Evolving Bond: As a Twisted Pact Witch grows in power, her bond to her familiar intensifies. Such corruption alters the being in question. at 2nd level and every other level after, the familiar gains an additional evolution point to be added to their total. This functions as the Eidolons evolution pool class feature and the is treated as having it for the purposes of feats. This replaces the patron class feature.
hmm I Know what I want to give to the monk of the flowing form, it's what to take away that's the issue...
What is it you plan to give them? We will be better equipped to offer suggestions with that information.
I do plan on a witch archetype as well, and at most one other (some kind of martial class).screw it, it's gonna be a monk. As much as I am against the whole "an archetype for this race must focus on this races ability modifiers" thing, I really love the idea of these guys reaching physical perfection and evolutions. I'll probably call it Monk of the Flowing Form. Give it a few extra evolution points, let it reduce the effort involved in changing evolutions, and whammo adaptable fighter.
as stated above, he gets additional evo points, the ability to change them on the fly (can be gradually improved over time), and maybe borrowing directly from the eidolons for nat armor. Also they will lose all evolution restrictions at first level.
I completely missed that. Thanks for reposting it.
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Something rough I just threw together:
Level .. Evolution Pool ... Level .. Evolution Pool
1st ... 3 ......................... 11th ... 9
2nd ... 4 ........................ 12th ... 10
3rd ... 4 ......................... 13th ... 10
4th ... 5 ......................... 14th ... 11
5th ... 5 ......................... 15th ... 11
6th ... 7 ......................... 16th ... 13
7th ... 7 ......................... 17th ... 13
8th ... 8 ......................... 18th ... 14
9th ... 8 ......................... 19th ... 14
10th ... 9 ........................ 20th ... 15
Spend X ki to alter what evolutions they use.
Probably have them able to take the extra evolution feat, as well.
They'd give up (like a Qinggong Monk): slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th).
Just brainstorming.
I like that as a start, although diamond body could be replace by immunity to involuntary polymorph effects.
I like that as a start, although diamond body could be replace by immunity to involuntary polymorph effects.
Definitely a good idea.
This archetype should push the monk into being a eidolon martial artist. I've been debating dropping the AC bonus for the eidolons scaling nat armor.
Would giving them a reflavored makers's jump from the synthesist at 7th level be ok? A synthesist gets it at 5th, and these guys are a bit more "cross-dimensional" than your typical monk.
hey, I'm not done with this yet.
so the warped have been officially published!!! they have been touched up, gained a monk archetype, been fleshed out culturally, and have been added to the Tome of twisted things. This doc also includes
Avenger (paladin alternate class): You are not good nor evil, all you care about is revenge. By making a deal with a god of vengeance, avengers are given the power they need to seek the revenge they so desire but must help others!
Ruiner (antipaladin archetype): Charged with bringing about the destruction of the world, ruiners are not interested in petty things like demons or selfishness. They seek to destroy—plain and simple. They revel in the pain they inflict and serve no lord...
Tyrant (prestige class): It is fair to say that all men desire power. Often the world descends into chaos as men squabble and bicker over who deserves power, as each tries to gain more power than the rest. Few are the men who seeks to wield this power with a sense of purpose. The tyrant stands among these privileged few, assured on his right to rule over lesser beings. Whether a despot or duke, benign or barbaric, all tyrants seek to rule over the land and impose their will to end chaos they see around them by whatever means necessary.