SLA FAQ Clarification Request: Arcane / Divine

[Joe M.]

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ revised 7/15/13:

(New wording in "out-of-character commentary" style.)

Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?

The universal monster rules for spell-like abilities states: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."

The same rule should apply for all creatures with spell-like abilities, including PC races: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order. Use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine.

Edit 7/15/13: Wording changed match the precedent in the universal monster rules for spell-like abilities.

Thanks PDT!

As always, very much appreciated.

And I like the new "out of character commentary"!

[blackbloodtroll]

Dang.

These guys are on the ball.

Remember when it was a pain to get these things answered?

[Jiggy]

So, what still remains? Or was that the last of it?

[Joe M.]

The only other SLA question that I can think of off the top of my head is whether a 3rd-level spell-like ability satisfies "able to cast 2nd-level spells" requirements.

I assume that you'd need a 2nd-level SLA, but it might be worth asking.

[Jiggy]

Meh. That one seems fairly clear to me.

[Xaratherus]

I think there was a post on it somewhere already. Let me check my history, I think I commented on it.

[DrDeth]

How aboout Inqsutitor, Witch, Anti-paladin, and so forth?

[Sean K Reynolds]

DrDeth wrote:

How aboout Inqsutitor, Witch, Anti-paladin, and so forth?

That's not specified (the UMR rule hasn't been updated), but obviously if a spell is only an inquisitor spell, then it counts as a divine spell, but if it's an inquisitor spell and a sorcerer/wizard spell, then the UMR rule says it counts as an arcane spell (because sor/wiz takes precedent).

[Dekalinder]

Great! Thank you guys!

[DrDeth]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

DrDeth wrote:

How aboout Inqsutitor, Witch, Anti-paladin, and so forth?

That's not specified (the UMR rule hasn't been updated), but obviously if a spell is only an inquisitor spell, then it counts as a divine spell, but if it's an inquisitor spell and a sorcerer/wizard spell, then the UMR rule says it counts as an arcane spell (because sor/wiz takes precedent).

Makes perfect sense to me, but hey, I thought that if only Divine spellcasters could cast it, it counted as Divine, only to have that debated.

Well, the new ordering system should solve most of these but Common sense would work too, methinks.

Thanks guys, for all your hard work!

[Bigdaddyjug]

Sean, care to comment about the over-levelled SLA counting for lower level spell requirements?

[Bobson]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

DrDeth wrote:

How aboout Inqsutitor, Witch, Anti-paladin, and so forth?

That's not specified (the UMR rule hasn't been updated), but obviously if a spell is only an inquisitor spell, then it counts as a divine spell, but if it's an inquisitor spell and a sorcerer/wizard spell, then the UMR rule says it counts as an arcane spell (because sor/wiz takes precedent).

<Phonepost>

i don't know if there are any such, but what if there were inquisitor/witch only spells?
< /Phonepost >

[HangarFlying]

Thanks for the input, PDT!

[Cheapy]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

DrDeth wrote:

How aboout Inqsutitor, Witch, Anti-paladin, and so forth?

That's not specified (the UMR rule hasn't been updated), but obviously if a spell is only an inquisitor spell, then it counts as a divine spell, but if it's an inquisitor spell and a sorcerer/wizard spell, then the UMR rule says it counts as an arcane spell (because sor/wiz takes precedent).

What about an alchemist only, which is neither arcane nor divine?

It'd be kind of weird to have an alchemist only SLA. But stranger things have happened.

[Quandary]

If there is ever an SLA of an Alchemist-only 'spell', I don't think it would be either arcane or divine.
Alchemist extracts are all just (Su) abilities without arcane/divine typing, after all.
I just don't see how it makes sense to have an SLA of an Alchemist-only extract, when SLAs have Concentration while Extracts don't.

So after denigrating everybody who productively participated in the thread, now that Paizo answered the issue, acknowledging the thread's validity,
Dr. Deth even added his own follow up question about non-Core Classes. Which was promptly answered, in fact.
Hilarious.

[Quandary]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

DrDeth wrote:

How aboout Inqsutitor, Witch, Anti-paladin, and so forth?

That's not specified (the UMR rule hasn't been updated)

So is that going into Errata for Bestiary 1, or to the books containing those Classes, or what?

[Sean K Reynolds]

I'm not sure it's necessary (for the "obvious" reason I stated), and we certainly don't like to errata books to refer to things (such as specific classes or spells) that didn't exist when the book was first printed.

[Quandary]

Sure, it's obvious when it is only on the single spell list of a new class, and when it is also on the 'always #1 priority' Sorc/Wiz list, but that doesn't cover alot of cases, and we don't know how Witch or Summoner/Inquisitor/Magus/Anti-Paladin fit in. We could ASSUME they fit in the same 'tier' of full/partial casters but that doesn't speak to the order within that group. That goes both for deriving arcane/divine typing and spell levels. I understand the reason why you wouldn't want to Errata Core Books which don't assume players have those classes, which is why I thought you might just put it in the FAQ.

Thanks for ruling on it, the old arcane/divine ruling just had some crazy ramifications.

[Quandary]

So the "Core Class" priority list has priority over ALL non-Core classes, then?
Cure Light Wounds is a Witch and Cleric spell. Divine SLA?
Honeyed Tongue is Bard and Inquisitor and Paladin (2 out of 3 divine). Arcane SLA?
Perceive Cues is a Witch, Inquisitor, and Ranger spell (and Alchemist Extract)? Divine SLA based on Ranger level?
Hunter's Eye is an Inquisitor (3) and Ranger spell (2). 2nd level SLA?

Those all include a Core Class spell level, but what of spells only shared amongst 'new' classes:
Defile Armor is an Anti-Paladin spell (3) and Inquisitor spell (4). What's the spell level?

[Sean K Reynolds]

If you don't have a Core Rulebook class listed for the spell, and you really, really, really need to figure this out, look at which class gets the spell earliest (in terms of class level), and go with the nature of that class.

Or... make a judgment call.

[ShadowcatX]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

If you don't have a Core Rulebook class listed for the spell, and you really, really, really need to figure this out, look at which class gets the spell earliest (in terms of class level), and go with the nature of that class.

Or... make a judgment call.

SKR, you seriously can't expect us to trust our DMs to make judgement calls! What if he doesn't make the right one and it throws out our super duper uber powerful build? Come on man, give us a ruling, we need it!

;)

[Bigdaddyjug]

ShadowcatX wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

If you don't have a Core Rulebook class listed for the spell, and you really, really, really need to figure this out, look at which class gets the spell earliest (in terms of class level), and go with the nature of that class.

Or... make a judgment call.

SKR, you seriously can't expect us to trust our DMs to make judgement calls! What if he doesn't make the right one and it throws out our super duper uber powerful build? Come on man, give us a ruling, we need it!

;)

Better be careful or you're gonna poke that tongue right through your cheek.

[Dekalinder]

I guess the iron has been mauled enaugh, it's time to let it cold and have a look at the final shape.