About the RAW & RAI of simulacrum, there's a prime example in Sins of the Saviors. Simulacrums of Delvahine keep their outsider HD and all the aludemon abilities . So that's not only RAW. It is also RAI, because that is how paizo use the spell in their own published books
So stop pretending the spell is fine and it's not broken. It is a nuclear weapon, the only thing that keep things fair is a mutual agreement of never using them. That doesn't make nuclear superpowers balanced with nations with conventional armies.
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YOU are reading ehat you want from the spell. The sculpture can be horribly built (ie you have -3 in disguise and roll a one) and that only mean any...So the spells aren't broken as long as nobody uses them. Kinda like the rogue who gain invisibility when nobody is looking.
Simulacrum is broken with or without free sim factory. Buying 15hd copies of the tarrasque as mounts for your party paladin for 7500gp isn't balanced, period.
You need a sculpture of the target. Not a sculpture of what you think the target looks like. Not a sculpture based off drawings of the target which are likely missing details. A sculpture of the target. This means you need to have seen it or find someone who has seen it who can then sculpt a good likeness of it.
Same as the genie etc. your not sculpting a random genie. You need to sculpt a specific genie. That's what the line means "a sculpture of the target".
If you've seen the Tarrasque close enough to study it long enough to make sculptures of it then you're probably high enough level not to worry about riding mounts of it.
Of course,then there's the line about powers for a creature of its hit dice. I point you to dragons as examples of creatures whose powers don't scale the way the genie machine people would have you believe. Even better, as DM I'd be tempted to make ffyour Tarrasque simulacrum rampage through the group killing everyone, since the Tarrasque is immune to controlling effects from spells. The control of your simulacrum comes from your spell. Boom, instant carnage, Bwahahahahaha. If I was less interested in killing you all, I'd just have the spell fail when the specific rule of your spell meets the specific rules of the Tarrasque. All that money for an ice sculpture that doesn't work.
These spells aren't broken. People who use their own interpretations to try and break them only get away with it through poor DMing. There are many in game ways to control them, none of which require rewrite.
No. The bluff is for when your sculpture takes on the illusionary appearance of the target and now becomes a simulacrum rather than a sculpture of ice. The wording of the spell specifically says a sculpture of the target. You can't just take a snowman, stick a few horns on it and call it the Tarrasque and get the spell to work. This is you trying to abuse the spell.
As DM, I can make your attempt to abuse the spell fail in any number of ways based on that word alone. Eg, you creates sculpture of a great gold wyrm. DM asks which one specifically. If you say it's just a representative of all general gold worms, then the spell fails. The spell description doesn't ask for a sculpture of the creature type being copied. It asks for a copy of THE target. Very specific. A DM can make that as specific as they want and you can't do a thing about by raw.
Now, imagine you actually succeed, and the sculpture is the likeness of a unique gold wyrm. The spell now says it has half HD, and the effective abilities of a creature of those hit dice. So we go to dragons, gold. We find a 15 HD dragon, gold. We see what powers it has and apply. By the words of the spell. It may look like a great gold wyrm, but it isn't one.
I've seen the Runelords simulacrum. It's not game breaking at all.
The wording of the spell is perfect for allowing players to use it creatively. It's also cleverly written enough that a DM can apply as severe application of those words as he wants. It isn't broken, unless your DM allows it to be. This is not fiat, this is rules application.
No. The bluff is for when your sculpture takes on the illusionary appearance of the target and now becomes a simulacrum rather than a sculpture of ice. The wording of the spell specifically says a sculpture of the target. You can't just take a snowman, stick a few horns on it and call it the Tarrasque and get the spell to work. This is you trying to abuse the spell.
I can make an sculpture of Obama. Right now. And I've never meet him. How much it will look like Obama will depend on my ability sculpting, but it IS a sculpture of obama even if it is horrible. I've seen wax sculptures in a wax museum that do not look like it's intended target at all, and it is a sculpture of the target regardless.
I can make an sculpture of Obama, the king of efreets too. Or the tarrasque, which is unique by definition.
The simulacra in ROTR imply that a 10th level fighter efreet that gets simulacreed keep 10hd of outsider and full outsider abilities, just like Delvahine. Which means wish, and chain-simulacring.
The spell IS broken. You won't need to gmfiat it against me, because I never use broken spells. I treat it as a nuclear weapon: if nobody uses it, it ia not a problem. That, however, doesnt mean the spell isn't broken
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About the RAW & RAI of simulacrum, there's a prime example in Sins of the Saviors. Simulacrums of Delvahine keep their outsider HD and all the aludemon abilities . So that's not only RAW. It is also RAI, because that is how paizo use the spell in their own published books
So stop pretending the spell is fine and it's not broken. It is a nuclear weapon, the only thing that keep things fair is a mutual agreement of never using them. That doesn't make nuclear superpowers balanced with nations with conventional armies.
Yes, and the wizard who created them was only able to do so through intricate knowledge of the original persona. That's where every plan I've seen so far for game breaking fails.
The wizard was also able to keep it secret or the subject would have gone berserk. Imagine a dragon finding out you copied it for a mount.
How do you get intricate knowledge of the Tarrasque so you can make a sculpture of it?
I am not sure why the application of half HD wasn't applied to all parts of the original persona? However, given the level the game is being played at by this stage of the AP I don't find it game breaking at all.
Here are the spells I have trouble with:
1. Prediction of Failure: Essentially a no save -4 on saves and attack rolls for the duration of a combat. Used to set up other more dangerous spells that turn what might be a fairly fair save into a very hard save.
2. Enervate and Energy Drain: No save negative levels. Attacks touch AC. Often turns BBEG encounters into trivial encounters, especially if a sorcerer is enervating. At high level when the sorcerer is casting energy drain with a greater maximize rod with a quickened enervate the fight is pretty much over. If he has Thanatopic Spell, it means every fight is over.
3. Wall of Force: Makes dividing up enemies into easy piecemeal encounters. The way around it is very rare and you can only pull out the counter in a few encounters.
From a player's perspective:
1. Fickle Winds is cruel to use against an archer PC.
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No. The bluff is for when your sculpture takes on the illusionary appearance of the target and now becomes a simulacrum rather than a sculpture of ice. The wording of the spell specifically says a sculpture of the target. You can't just take a snowman, stick a few horns on it and call it the Tarrasque and get the spell to work. This is you trying to abuse the spell.I can make an sculpture of Obama. Right now. And I've never meet him. How much it will look like Obama will depend on my ability sculpting, but it IS a sculpture of obama even if it is horrible. I've seen wax sculptures in a wax museum that do not look like it's intended target at all, and it is a sculpture of the target regardless.
I can make an sculpture of Obama, the king of efreets too. Or the tarrasque, which is unique by definition.
The simulacra in ROTR imply that a 10th level fighter efreet that gets simulacreed keep 10hd of outsider and full outsider abilities, just like Delvahine. Which means wish, and chain-simulacring.
The spell IS broken. You won't need to gmfiat it against me, because I never use broken spells. I treat it as a nuclear weapon: if nobody uses it, it ia not a problem. That, however, doesnt mean the spell isn't broken
Yes, that's you taking a very relaxed view of the wording of the spell. If the DM allows that much of a relaxed view then he's welcome to his problems. Of course, Obama is one of the most publicised men on television, so I'd argue your knowledge of him is quite high for sculpting purposes. Über powerful creatures of the rarity you bandy about aren't that commonly seen
As for the wish thing with the genie, I'd happily allow it to work I have no problem at all with it. First time you used it, fine. Next time though, you might garner the attention of the genies and other creatures that keep an eye on the wish economy. Paizo published stuff about it too, in legacy of fire part 6. That's how paizo intends that to be handled.
It allows for creative spells and creative responses. It allows for GMs to apply in game consequences for in game actions.
Any how, my weekend is up. My brief foray back into these threads has merely reaffirmed my thoughts on what too much of the community has become sadly.
Thanks for the debate Gustavo. Good gaming.
Yes, that's you taking a very relaxed view of the wording of the spell. If the DM allows that much of a relaxed view then he's welcome to his problems. Of course, Obama is one of the most publicised men on television, so I'd argue your knowledge of him is quite high for sculpting purposes. Über powerful creatures of the rarity you bandy about aren't that commonly seenNo. The bluff is for when your sculpture takes on the illusionary appearance of the target and now becomes a simulacrum rather than a sculpture of ice. The wording of the spell specifically says a sculpture of the target. You can't just take a snowman, stick a few horns on it and call it the Tarrasque and get the spell to work. This is you trying to abuse the spell.I can make an sculpture of Obama. Right now. And I've never meet him. How much it will look like Obama will depend on my ability sculpting, but it IS a sculpture of obama even if it is horrible. I've seen wax sculptures in a wax museum that do not look like it's intended target at all, and it is a sculpture of the target regardless.
I can make an sculpture of Obama, the king of efreets too. Or the tarrasque, which is unique by definition.
The simulacra in ROTR imply that a 10th level fighter efreet that gets simulacreed keep 10hd of outsider and full outsider abilities, just like Delvahine. Which means wish, and chain-simulacring.
The spell IS broken. You won't need to gmfiat it against me, because I never use broken spells. I treat it as a nuclear weapon: if nobody uses it, it ia not a problem. That, however, doesnt mean the spell isn't broken
i can make an sculpture of the tarrasque too. I'm doing one right now with wax. And I have only read descriptions of it and seen a drawing or two. Actually, I have just told my 9 years old son how it is, and he is doing one right now. With mashed potatoes. Does it seem accurate enough to look like the real one? Of course not. It's like rolling a 1 in the disguise roll. BUT IT DOESNT MATTER. Because IT IS an sculpture of a tarrasque. Try to convince my child it is not, good luck with that. T
If this were a spell, in 12 hours that horribly built sculpture would be destroyed by the spell (with 7500gp in ruby powder) and a 15hd tarrasque would appear. The fact we failed the sculpture check only mean every body will notice it is pink, unlike the real tarrasque. BUT THAT DOESNT AFFECT THE ABILITIES OF THE CREATURE. Just the possibility to pass for the real one.
Thanks for all the ideas/feedback. I'm not dead-set on doing this, so I don't want to sound the least bit defensive in any of the following, just trying to explain things and ask for clarification.
First I would like to point out a couple of things to anyone joining mid-stream and who hasn't read all of my posts carefully :
1. This is not at all about what spells are "broken". I regret now picking the word "breakers" - I'm asking about those spells you think might be able to "short-circuit" the DM's game in some way. Bypass what the DM is hoping/intending will happen. Not that an occasional bypass can't be interesting or fun for everyone, nor am I saying that all bypasses should be avoided at all costs.
2. Any ritualized spell can be cast into a scroll for later in-melee use.
Please (re-)read my post at the very bottom of page 2 of this thread for more info.
Blueluck : I get exactly what you're saying. And your example for any "return to life" spell is great (and another suggestion I saw somewhere was you must be a member in good standing of that church). All I'm trying to do is avoid a *separate* "restriction/condition" for each spell that's a breaker. I've narrowed the list of ritualized 4th-level spells down to 12 spells out of ALL 4th-level spells. They function exactly as normal, and can be cast in-melee if desired (with some preparation/foresight). And as "rituals", there's one well-defined restriction for them all. Does that really show a "predjudice" against all spellcasting classes? Again, not defensive, just asking....
And while I would reserve the right to ritualize a spell not currently on the list if a player should start abusing it, I would only do so if the spell as written was obviously un-balanced, not just because I couldn't handle it or didn't want to deal with it. (Believe me, I've been on the other side of that, when my 3rd level Psion ripped thru the DM's 6 skeletons with one use of Energy Missile. The DM decided EM was just too powerful, and wanted to nerf it badly. It took me weeks to talk him down from that, having to compare the damage-dealing of Psions to Clerics and even quoting one of the authors of EM!). So I wouldn't do it lightly, and would talk with the player(s) about it first.
FWIW, my players are also very experienced with RPG's but not with Pathfinder, and while I've announced my intentions in advance, they're not to 7th level yet. Even with 3 spellcasters in the party, they may not even pick ANY of the 4th-level ritualized spells, in which case nothing at all changes!
Tels : ok, I can see Plane Shift as a "get me out of here" response to being sent to another plane by the bad guy. And the target would be in trouble if he didn't have Plane Shift ready as a scroll (if it was a ritual spell). But even as written, if the poor guy didn't have Plane Shift selected for the day in a spell slot, he'd be just as dead, wouldn't he? So with rituals you create a scroll of each of your ritual spells for emergencies, which actually frees up spell slots for daily/melee use.
You did bring up something new though : spells on the ritual list that are a creature's spell-like or supernatural ability. Off the top of my head I'd have to say that since the spell is an innate ability, they can "cast" it with the RAW casting time. Anyone see any potential problems with that?
Speaking of Create Pit : holy c**p! A 2nd level spell that could potentially take 1-3 (or more, over its duration) creatures out of melee for several rounds (and do a little damage besides)? I'm glad none of my players have discovered that spell! :) And it seems to scale nicely (DC, duration) with higher level opponents (until they can fly, D-door, etc., but even then not all high-level opponents will be able to do those). How do DM's deal with that? (Yes I know there's saving throws, but still...)
Thanks for all the ideas/feedback. I'm not dead-set on doing this, so I don't want to sound the least bit defensive in any of the following, just trying to explain things and ask for clarification.
First I would like to point out a couple of things to anyone joining mid-stream and who hasn't read all of my posts carefully :
1. This is not at all about what spells are "broken". I regret now picking the word "breakers" - I'm asking about those spells you think might be able to "short-circuit" the DM's game in some way. Bypass what the DM is hoping/intending will happen. Not that an occasional bypass can't be interesting or fun for everyone, nor am I saying that all bypasses should be avoided at all costs.
2. Any ritualized spell can be cast into a scroll for later in-melee use.
Please (re-)read my post at the very bottom of page 2 of this thread for more info.
Blueluck : I get exactly what you're saying. And your example for any "return to life" spell is great (and another suggestion I saw somewhere was you must be a member in good standing of that church). All I'm trying to do is avoid a *separate* "restriction/condition" for each spell that's a breaker. I've narrowed the list of ritualized 4th-level spells down to 12 spells out of ALL 4th-level spells. They function exactly as normal, and can be cast in-melee if desired (with some preparation/foresight). And as "rituals", there's one well-defined restriction for them all. Does that really show a "predjudice" against all spellcasting classes? Again, not defensive, just asking....
And while I would reserve the right to ritualize a spell not currently on the list if a player should start abusing it, I would only do so if the spell as written was obviously un-balanced, not just because I couldn't handle it or didn't want to deal with it. (Believe me, I've been on the other side of that, when my 3rd level Psion ripped thru the DM's 6 skeletons with one use of Energy Missile. The DM decided EM was just too...
The Climb skill is your best bet for Create Pit. If you can brace against the opposite wall, it lowers the climb DC by 10, if you can brace against the corner, it lowers it by 5; if you can do both, it lowers the DC by 15.
No. The bluff is for when your sculpture takes on the illusionary appearance of the target and now becomes a simulacrum rather than a sculpture of ice. The wording of the spell specifically says a sculpture of the target. You can't just take a snowman, stick a few horns on it and call it the Tarrasque and get the spell to work. This is you trying to abuse the spell.I can make an sculpture of Obama. Right now. And I've never meet him. How much it will look like Obama will depend on my ability sculpting, but it IS a sculpture of obama even if it is horrible. I've seen wax sculptures in a wax museum that do not look like it's intended target at all, and it is a sculpture of the target regardless.
I can make an sculpture of Obama, the king of efreets too. Or the tarrasque, which is unique by definition.
The simulacra in ROTR imply that a 10th level fighter efreet that gets simulacreed keep 10hd of outsider and full outsider abilities, just like Delvahine. Which means wish, and chain-simulacring.
The spell IS broken. You won't need to gmfiat it against me, because I never use broken spells. I treat it as a nuclear weapon: if nobody uses it, it ia not a problem. That, however, doesnt mean the spell isn't broken
Yes, that's you taking a very relaxed view of the wording of the spell. If the DM allows that much of a relaxed view then he's welcome to his problems. Of course, Obama is one of the most publicised men on television, so I'd argue your knowledge of him is quite high for sculpting purposes. Über powerful creatures of the rarity you bandy about aren't that commonly seen
As for the wish thing with the genie, I'd happily allow it to work I have no problem at all with it. First time you used it, fine. Next time though, you might garner the attention of the genies and other creatures that keep an eye on the wish economy. Paizo published stuff about it too, in legacy of fire part 6. That's how paizo intends that to be handled.
It...
This only just occurred to me. Wrath, keep in mind that not everyone has access to every piece of published material by Paizo. I didn't know about the Wish article in Legacy of Fire until you mentioned it. Part of the reason is that I'm currently playing in Legacy of Fire and I didn't want to spoil anything; the other reason being that I don't want to spoil anything for any campaign, so I avoid reading any of the APs except for ones I am running/will run.
There are probably lots of people who can't afford to buy every supplemental piece of material, or choose not to for whatever reason. So keep that in mind before saying why something won't work. Not every one will have the same info you do.
Hmm, looking through this thread, a question about the Tarrasque and Simulacrum occurs to me.
The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).
Pretty much what makes the Tarrasque special is the fact that it can't be killed, it's huge list of resistances/immunities, it's reflective carapace, that kind of thing. So, would a simulacrum actually include ANY of those things? There's no such thing as a lesser or baby Tarrasque, so trying to create a Simulacrum of one means there's nothing to really go by as there would be for a young dragon, for example. So, it seems like it's GM's choice which, if any, of the Tarrasque's signature special abilities are actually available on the Simulacrum. If the GM decides "none", the spell suddenly seems less over-powered all of a sudden.
I don't recall ever seeing a thread titled, "Animate rope is destroying my campaign!"I'm amazed that you posted that on Friday, and there's still no thread with that title...
Hmm, looking through this thread, a question about the Tarrasque and Simulacrum occurs to me.
The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).Pretty much what makes the Tarrasque special is the fact that it can't be killed, it's huge list of resistances/immunities, it's reflective carapace, that kind of thing. So, would a simulacrum actually include ANY of those things? There's no such thing as a lesser or baby Tarrasque, so trying to create a Simulacrum of one means there's nothing to really go by as there would be for a young dragon, for example. So, it seems like it's GM's choice which, if any, of the Tarrasque's signature special abilities are actually available on the Simulacrum. If the GM decides "none", the spell suddenly seems less over-powered all of a sudden.
If the GM decides "none" it's exactly the same than if the GM decides "today there is an eclipse and illusion spells are counterspelled". It's pure GM fiat.The fact there is not a younger version of the Tarrasque does not imply it doesn't have any ability at all. There is not a younger version of any monster except the dragon. You couldn't copy a tarrasque, but then you couldn't copy an Ice Devil, a Trumpet archon, a Frost Giant or a Purple Worm, as non of those have a younger version either. Remember, you aren't building a "younger version of the creature". You are building a "weaker version of the creature". The younger version is just a loophole some people try to use with dragons to avoid giving the full SLA of a wyrm, but at half caster level.
And yes, a GM that tries to avoid the PC build an army of Tarrasques will be doing the right thing to protect his campaign. That includes any version of "today there is an eclipse", and, even better, talking to the player to a Weapon of Mass Destruction agreement that leave the broken stuff out of the game. But no, that doesn't make the spell any less broken by itself. The simulacrum spell IS broken. Anything that allow you to copy creatures which end having higher Challenge Rating than yourself IS broken. Specially if you can mass-copy them