What spells do you consider to be "breakers"???


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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As a long-time DM relatively new to D&D/Pathfinder, I've recently become aware of spells that many consider to be "breakers" (my term) :

Battle breaker - significantly turns the tide in battle, with little that can be done about it
Mystery breaker - short-circuits looking for clues, figuring things out, using skill rolls, etc.
Death breaker - allows PC's to not worry about death or negative levels
Story breaker - most of the time, short-circuits the need for traveling from point A to point B (which takes time, provides opportunities for encounters and side-adventures, etc.)
Counterspell breaker - there's only maybe 1-3 spells that can effectively counter or get around the spell

I'm most interested in spells of 4th level and higher. Below is a partial list I've cobbled together from various forums.

Please feel free to add your own pet peeves, or argue against any of the spells in this list. It's not "my" list, I don't care. :)

Please do not feel obligated to fit your spell into one of my categories, just say what you don't like about it.
But please do be kind enough to indicate the spell level of any spell you name. Thanks!

Black Tentacles (4) – battle breaker
Dimension Door (4) – story breaker
Discern Lies (4) – mystery breaker
Divination (4) – mystery breaker
Freedom of Movement (4) – battle breaker
Geas, Lesser (4) – can “dominate” for a week
Globe of Invulnerability (4,6) – battle breaker
Invisibility, Greater (4) – counterspell breaker
Restoration (2, 4=remove permanent negative level, 7) – death breaker
Scrying (4|5) – mystery breaker
Solid Fog (4) – counterspell breaker
Stoneskin (4) – battle breaker

Commune (5) – mystery breaker
Dominate Person (5) – total control
Feeblemind (5) – spellcaster breaker
Flame Strike (5) – battle breaker
Planar Travel (5) – story breaker
Polymorph (5,7) – only if you get the special abilities of the creature
Raise Dead (5) – death breaker
Teleport (5,7) – story breaker
Wall of Force (5) – battle breaker, counterspell breaker

Wall of Iron (6) – battle breaker
Disintegrate (6) – save or “die”
Dispel Magic, Greater (6) – battle breaker

Forcecage (7) – counterspell breaker
Resurrection (7,9) – death breaker
Gate (9) – story breaker


i think your battle breaker term is a bit to vague, assuming a failed save, a ton of spells are battle breakers. I am also not sure why restoration is a 'death breaker' but cure spells, lesser restoration, remove disease, remove blindness/deafness, and neutralize poison are not. All of them remove negative conditions and injury. Whats the difference? Why are negative levels so important that their removal is the sole qualifyer for 'death breaker' beside reversing death.

Honestly I think the whole magic system is built on a legacy that no longer applies rationally to the game as it exists today. The wizards job (though this applies to other casters) was originally to be a 'breaker' a couple times a day, and the rest of the time plink uselessly with a crossbow. But we have moved on from that sort of dynamic where everyone gets to participate for longer in the adventuring day. But no one told the legacy spells that. There are breakers all over the casters spell lists.

color spray (1) - battle breaker
sleep (1) - battle breaker
murderous command (1) story breaker (having trouble with that haughty noble you know is evil but cant prove it, cast this on him when he's standing next to the king, and watch your troubles disappear)
interogation (1) mystery breaker
glitterdust(2) - battle breaker
invisibility (2) - story breaker (potentially allows entire encounters and challenges to be bypassed)
zone of truth (2) mystery breaker
locate object (2) mystery breaker
animal messenger (2) story breaker
invisibility sphere (3) story breaker
locate creature (4) mystery breaker
reincarnate (4) death breaker
enervation (4) battle breaker
sending (4) story breaker
true seeing (5) mystery breaker
circle of death (6) battle breaker
contact other plane (5) mystery breaker
overland flight (5) story breaker

invisibility mass (7) story breaker
limited wish (7) everything breaker
wish (9) everything breaker
miracle (9) everything breaker
energy drain (9) battle breaker
teleportation circle (9) story breaker
tsunami (9) battle breaker
ride the lightning (9) story breaker, battle breaker, counterspell breaker

there are more but those are the ones that I could think of off hand.


Simulacrum, planar binding, gate are the main offenders


ZenFox42 wrote:

As a long-time DM relatively new to D&D/Pathfinder, I've recently become aware of spells that many consider to be "breakers" (my term) :

Battle breaker - significantly turns the tide in battle, with little that can be done about it
Mystery breaker - short-circuits looking for clues, figuring things out, using skill rolls, etc.
Death breaker - allows PC's to not worry about death or negative levels
Story breaker - most of the time, short-circuits the need for traveling from point A to point B (which takes time, provides opportunities for encounters and side-adventures, etc.)
Counterspell breaker - there's only maybe 1-3 spells that can effectively counter or get around the spell

I'm most interested in spells of 4th level and higher. Below is a partial list I've cobbled together from various forums.

Please feel free to add your own pet peeves, or argue against any of the spells in this list. It's not "my" list, I don't care. :)

Please do not feel obligated to fit your spell into one of my categories, just say what you don't like about it.
But please do be kind enough to indicate the spell level of any spell you name. Thanks!

Black Tentacles (4) – battle breaker
Dimension Door (4) – story breaker
Discern Lies (4) – mystery breaker
Divination (4) – mystery breaker
Freedom of Movement (4) – battle breaker
Geas, Lesser (4) – can “dominate” for a week
Globe of Invulnerability (4,6) – battle breaker
Invisibility, Greater (4) – counterspell breaker
Restoration (2, 4=remove permanent negative level, 7) – death breaker
Scrying (4|5) – mystery breaker
Solid Fog (4) – counterspell breaker
Stoneskin (4) – battle breaker

Commune (5) – mystery breaker
Dominate Person (5) – total control
Feeblemind (5) – spellcaster breaker
Flame Strike (5) – battle breaker
Planar Travel (5) – story breaker
Polymorph (5,7) – only if you get the special abilities of the creature
Raise Dead (5) – death breaker
Teleport (5,7) – story breaker
Wall of Force (5) – battle breaker,...

If you are looking for a "ban list" I would try them in your game first. Most of these spells listed don't "break" anything, and some of them are not even that good.

If you are looking for good spells to give PC's/NPC's then some of them once again, are not that good.

Flame Strike as an example does damage, but it is far from the "every day" spells.

"Every day" spells are ones that a caster would have ready unless he had a reason not to because the combination of such spells can cover a a wide range of issues.

Black Tentacles is nice against mooks and classes with low CMD's, but if the creature, such as a giant, has a high CMD that is not the spell to be using.

PS:Almost any spell can be a breaker under the right circumstance.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
Simulacrum, planar binding, gate are the main offenders

I bet they'll remove Simulacrum from the game next edition.

Or rewrite it so radically that it's effectively a different spell, with the same name. Just so people can't put Simulacrum back in the game.

I love simulacrums, but the cheese factor pings at 11.

I'll miss them when they're gone.


Mage's Disjunction.

Granted its a 9th level spell, and it really isn't all that useful to the PCs, but its immensely useful to a mean GM.


To everyone who's replied so far, thanks!

Please keep in mind that the opinions that the spells in my list are "breakers" was that of others. So I may not have any good counter-arguments to many of your questions and comments.

But just for example : many many people seem to bemoan that Teleport (etc.) and Divination/Scrying (etc.) take a lot of the DM's "fun" out of the game. The players don't have to think, or apply their PC's skills, just ho-hum, haul the right spell out and cast it.

And another : if any 9th level or higher Cleric can Raise Dead and then do two Restorations, where's the thrill/anxiety for the players when they know that their PC can't "really die", just be merely inconvenienced for a couple of weeks (and a lot of gold)?

I know, there's ways for a DM to arrange things in their world to minimize these effects, but that's not what I'm looking for. I want people's opinions as to which spells "break" the fun/thrill/whatever, or can "short-circuit" key plot elements of the game.

FWIW, I'm not thinking of banning these spells, but turning them into "rituals", using a home-brew variant of Unearthed Arcana's Incantations. Each spell would still have to be "known" by the caster (if applicable), and occupy a spell slot (at least on the day of the ritual), then the ritual process would be quick and simple (in terms of game mechanics), based on just the spell level. No modifying each spell's description in terms of Backlash, number of Knowledge rolls, etc.

My hope is that by making them time- and GP-consuming (with chances of death if things go very wrong), the PC's will think twice and only use those spells in emergencies.

[As a by-the-way, I'm also using rituals to justify the low quantity of high-powered and "permanent" magic items (armor, swords, rings, staves, etc.) in my world : in addition to the feat, making each item requires a ritual, which can incur things like long-term Ability penalties and possibly death. So high-level spellcasters are only going to make items when they *really* need to.]

Thanks again!


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Porphyrogenitus wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Simulacrum, planar binding, gate are the main offenders

I bet they'll remove Simulacrum from the game next edition.

Or rewrite it so radically that it's effectively a different spell, with the same name. Just so people can't put Simulacrum back in the game.

I love simulacrums, but the cheese factor pings at 11.

I'll miss them when they're gone.

it's one of those "this spell is so cool that I would love to use it, but it's so dang broken that I can't use it without throwing the campaign out of the window

Edit: even without chain-simulacrum chease, simulacra of tarrasque, and other cheese, it's just too powerful.

5000-6000g to get a copy of every enemy? Lol.
In my current campaign, the PC know that the princess is not really human. They do not know what she is, but they know sje is horribly powerful. She is protected vs divination. So they have just made a simulacra of her, to know what she is (!)

Liberty's Edge

Teleport, Raise Dead, and Overland flight are the main spells I dislike. To me they are the most representative of spell casters becoming significantly more unstoppable.


gustavo iglesias wrote:

it's one of those "this spell is so cool that I would love to use it, but it's so dang broken that I can't use it without throwing the campaign out of the window

Edit: even without chain-simulacrum chease, simulacra of tarrasque, and other cheese, it's just too powerful.

Oh, yeah; when I mentioned the cheese factor, I didn't just mean with blood money.

It's *either* too good, *or* it's so vaguely written that it causes bickering. Basically RAW does mean it is too good, but with just enough vagueness in the writing that people can say "it's not really broken, if your DM, like mine, interprets it in X way."

(Which, btw, is fine - I have no opposition to anyone interpreting or houseruleing anything and everything they need to in order to keep a campaign fun).

Anyhow I don't mean to make this a thread about Simulacrums. Just wanted to chime in again on Gustavo's point.


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I've heavily nerfed simulacrum in my games, but people STILL queue up to learn it and to use it. Under my rules, you can make simulacrums of things up to your own level (no caster level shennanigans), not twice your level. You also generally lose most of the exotic special abilities on a monster simulacrum, and I have a meta rule that there exists no way to repeatably get a wish for less than 25k gold. Even so there is tremendous demand for 'mini-mes' and 'mini yous'. One mystic theurgist uses a large number of simulacrums of herself to greatly extend her transnational reach.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Porphyrogenitus wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Simulacrum, planar binding, gate are the main offenders

I bet they'll remove Simulacrum from the game next edition.

Or rewrite it so radically that it's effectively a different spell, with the same name. Just so people can't put Simulacrum back in the game.

I love simulacrums, but the cheese factor pings at 11.

I'll miss them when they're gone.

it's one of those "this spell is so cool that I would love to use it, but it's so dang broken that I can't use it without throwing the campaign out of the window

Edit: even without chain-simulacrum chease, simulacra of tarrasque, and other cheese, it's just too powerful.

5000-6000g to get a copy of every enemy? Lol.
In my current campaign, the PC know that the princess is not really human. They do not know what she is, but they know sje is horribly powerful. She is protected vs divination. So they have just made a simulacra of her, to know what she is (!)

Or, you know, you could use it in a non-game-breaking way. For instance, in my weekly game both the wizard and the sorcerer are looking into using simulacrum to create doubles of themselves to help keep track of their affairs in major cities while they are off adventuring, and to potentially help spring traps set for them in a meta-sense.

I suspect if we started using it to create doubles of 'every enemy' and such the GM would object - but it's unlikely to be an issue because the goal of the game is to play a character, not to try and 'win' or 'break' anything. Too many people forget that when they start listing off 'broken' spells.


Peter Stewart wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Porphyrogenitus wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Simulacrum, planar binding, gate are the main offenders

I bet they'll remove Simulacrum from the game next edition.

Or rewrite it so radically that it's effectively a different spell, with the same name. Just so people can't put Simulacrum back in the game.

I love simulacrums, but the cheese factor pings at 11.

I'll miss them when they're gone.

it's one of those "this spell is so cool that I would love to use it, but it's so dang broken that I can't use it without throwing the campaign out of the window

Edit: even without chain-simulacrum chease, simulacra of tarrasque, and other cheese, it's just too powerful.

5000-6000g to get a copy of every enemy? Lol.
In my current campaign, the PC know that the princess is not really human. They do not know what she is, but they know sje is horribly powerful. She is protected vs divination. So they have just made a simulacra of her, to know what she is (!)

Or, you know, you could use it in a non-game-breaking way. For instance, in my weekly game both the wizard and the sorcerer are looking into using simulacrum to create doubles of themselves to help keep track of their affairs in major cities while they are off adventuring, and to potentially help spring traps set for them in a meta-sense.

I suspect if we started using it to create doubles of 'every enemy' and such the GM would object - but it's unlikely to be an issue because the goal of the game is to play a character, not to try and 'win' or 'break' anything. Too many people forget that when they start listing off 'broken' spells.

sure, you could use it to have a colection of 21 simulacrum sitting in a room so you can play soccer when you want. But any other use of it is broken.

Even making just simulacrums of yourself (and not copying every monster with powerful SLA n the game) is too powerful. For the cost of a quickening rod, you can have SIX simulacrums of yourself with you in combat, so you can cast SEVEN spells per turn (although several of them with less duration).

THe only way this spell isn't broken is if you don't use it. Or if you use it to play soccer with yourself or any other thing without game consequences. But that way, nothing is broken, in any game, ever


I don't think as a GM you actually have to arrange anything. Most of these things have their own inherent limitations that some players and GMs overlook in the interest of mad power gaming. Put an end to that, and it isn't a problem.

ZenFox42 wrote:
But just for example : many many people seem to bemoan that Teleport (etc.) and Divination/Scrying (etc.) take a lot of the DM's "fun" out of the game. The players don't have to think, or apply their PC's skills, just ho-hum, haul the right spell out and cast it.

I think most people would find that if they ran these spells as written they are less of a problem. High chance of inaccuracy, requiring good descriptions, and so forth all make teleports to places you haven't been a bad idea. Further, as a GM, you don't have to actually set out detailed rules on why certain areas are a bad idea to teleport to - simply having various NPCs tip them off to that is usually enough to dissuade them. If they insist on pressing the issue methods like teleport trap and others are enough to rapidly convince a party that randomly teleporting is a bad idea.

What teleport really does is allow a party to escape a bad combat and / or expand the reach of the campaign.

ZenFox42 wrote:
And another : if any 9th level or higher Cleric can Raise Dead and then do two Restorations, where's the thrill/anxiety for the players when they know that their PC can't "really die", just be merely inconvenienced for a couple of weeks (and a lot of gold)?

I think at least two players in my current game have made clear (at 15th level mind you) that their characters would not willingly return from the afterlife were they to die. Beyond personal choices along that vein, I don't think any player at the table would view death as non-trivial for their characters - especially since under the best of circumstances death requires a day to undo. I'll also point out that the restorations take (iirc) two weeks to apply. Negative levels aren't fun.


Snowball? Conjuration-school elemental damage dealing spells in general?


"ZenFox42 wrote:

"I'm most interested in spells of 4th level and higher. Below is a partial list I've cobbled together from various forums.

Ignoring lower level spells does them a disservice. Some of the most effective control spells are below level 4. In particular Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust and Slow demolish encounters. They are also low enough level that they are easy to add Persistent Spell to.

A Sorcerer knowing all three is a terrifying prospect to face although that doesn't mean they should be banned.

You also need to account for other feats. Dazing spell in particular trivialises encounters when tagged on to spells like Fireball, Fire Snake and Chain Lightning. When Spell Perfection becomes available at level 15 this becomes incredibly difficult to deal with.

One other spell I have seen used to great effect recently is Ash Storm, again level 3. It covers a huge area, effectively blinds everyone in it and creates difficult terrain in the area. That's half movement from being blind (or risk falling over) together with half movement from difficult terrain. Your average heavy armour user is going to be reduced to moving 5' per move action. That's not much off what old style Solid Fog used to do and that was damn powerful.


gustavo iglesias wrote:

sure, you could use it to have a colection of 21 simulacrum sitting in a room so you can play soccer when you want. But any other use of it is broken.

Even making just simulacrums of yourself (and not copying every monster with powerful SLA n the game) is too powerful. For the cost of a quickening rod, you can have SIX simulacrums of yourself with you in combat, so you can cast SEVEN spells per turn (although several of them with less duration).

THe only way this spell isn't broken is if you don't use it. Or if you use it to play soccer with yourself or any other thing without game consequences. But that way, nothing is broken, in any game, ever

Six simulacrums that each require you to have a tremendous amount of money on hand to create them in the first place (I know every game I've played has included large piles of coins), which cast spells of half my level and caster level, which have no gear, and which are likely to be wiped out by the first area of effect spell or effect? Six doubles of myself that are likely to bog down the game tremendously and make the game a headache for everyone?

I've never understood the interest in seeing something that can be broken if your GM is incompetent and your goal is power gaming, then arguing that it is broken for everyone and should be changed or banned. You can keep your bloody hands off the simulacrum spell if you can't find a legitimate use. In the mean time my group will continue to make use of it (and every other 'broken' spell) in ways that add to the game instead of trying to 'win' it.

Josh M wrote:
Snowball? Conjuration-school elemental damage dealing spells in general?

For the most part as they exist in pathfinder they are not a problem, being both of higher level, inferior areas, and lower overall efficiency than evocations that do the same thing. I don't mind stepping on the toes of other schools a bit, as long as you can't do it as well as they can.


EWHM wrote:
I've heavily nerfed simulacrum in my games, but people STILL queue up to learn it and to use it. Under my rules, you can make simulacrums of things up to your own level (no caster level shennanigans), not twice your level. You also generally lose most of the exotic special abilities on a monster simulacrum, and I have a meta rule that there exists no way to repeatably get a wish for less than 25k gold. Even so there is tremendous demand for 'mini-mes' and 'mini yous'. One mystic theurgist uses a large number of simulacrums of herself to greatly extend her transnational reach.

Neat.

Liberty's Edge

Wall of... can be an all encompassing breaker


Well, I don’t agree with “story breaker” or “mystery breaker” categories. A good DM needs to account for such. Much of the popularity of stuff like E6 is from DM’s who like to keep their players on the railroad tracks and aren’t imaginative enough to think fast when the players come up with an end run.

Battle Breaker- some of these spells, like Black Tentacles, just slow the action down to a stop. I’d like to outright ban Black Tentacles & Web.

Mages Disjunction is a game breaker.

As far as Raise dead :Sean said it best”http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kkid&page=2?Raise-Dead-and-the-Diamon d-Thing#82

"For people who can teleport across the world, literally travel to Hell and back, and conjure deadly fire and stone out of thin air, death is a trivial obstacle.
In terms of game math, the 5000gp cost for the spell also encourages metagaming, which is bad. See, if you have a party of 3 live PCs and one dead PC, they have two options:
1) Scrounge up 5000gp (either from the dead PC's stuff or from a group donation) and have the dead PC raised. Net result: party has 5000gp less than before and two more negative levels than before.
2) Leave the PC dead, divide his stuff among the PCs or sell it, have the dead PC's player bring in a new character (who has full gear for his level, and no negative levels). Net result: party has X more gp than before (where at worst X is half the expected wealth for a character of their level) and no extra negative levels.
In other words, it's better for the party to bring in a new PC than to resurrect the old one. Which is lame. In a "roleplaying" game that barely encourages roleplaying at all, costly PC death actively DIScourages roleplaying someone who's compassionate about a fallen ally, and ENcourages you to be a mercenary metagaming player who's only interested in the wealth and damage output of the group.
I don't like the expensive material component for a spell that is critical and necessary to the typical game experience, and I don't use it

My thoughts on it are: don't have the gp cost, don't have the negative level be permanent. It sucks to die, it sucks that one of the PCs has to use a high-level spell to fix the problem. We grew up playing video games where you die, hit Continue, and keep playing. These costs are among the last "DM vs. players" mentality of the old style of gaming, and I don't play that way."

So yeah, the fact that you can raise your companion is not game-breaking, in fact the other way around “Meh, so our boon companion who has saved our lives so many times is dead. Great! Lets loot his body, and Bob will bring in Knuckles the 87th with better, cooler Min/Maxed loot- YAY!”

Shadow Lodge

I've found spells like wall of stone to potentially break games, but the players that cast it ususally have it as a last resort. Nothing below 3rd level can be significantly game-breaking because they run out of usefulness when everything can make dcs with a one. Glitterdust is an exception because whether you make your save or not, if you are invisible, you become visible. But, you should keep some gamebreakers in as last resorts for if your PCs are about to TPK because they weren't ready for the encounters. Don't be banning spells unless it significantly ruins your fun.


DrDeth wrote:

Well, I don’t agree with “story breaker” or “mystery breaker” categories. A good DM needs to account for such. Much of the popularity of stuff like E6 is from DM’s who like to keep their players on the railroad tracks and aren’t imaginative enough to think fast when the players come up with an end run.

Battle Breaker- some of these spells, like Black Tentacles, just slow the action down to a stop. I’d like to outright ban Black Tentacles & Web.

Mages Disjunction is a game breaker.

As far as Raise dead :Sean said it best”http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kkid&page=2?Raise-Dead-and-the-Diamon d-Thing#82

"For people who can teleport across the world, literally travel to Hell and back, and conjure deadly fire and stone out of thin air, death is a trivial obstacle.
In terms of game math, the 5000gp cost for the spell also encourages metagaming, which is bad. See, if you have a party of 3 live PCs and one dead PC, they have two options:
1) Scrounge up 5000gp (either from the dead PC's stuff or from a group donation) and have the dead PC raised. Net result: party has 5000gp less than before and two more negative levels than before.
2) Leave the PC dead, divide his stuff among the PCs or sell it, have the dead PC's player bring in a new character (who has full gear for his level, and no negative levels). Net result: party has X more gp than before (where at worst X is half the expected wealth for a character of their level) and no extra negative levels.
In other words, it's better for the party to bring in a new PC than to resurrect the old one. Which is lame. In a "roleplaying" game that barely encourages roleplaying at all, costly PC death actively DIScourages roleplaying someone who's compassionate about a fallen ally, and ENcourages you to be a mercenary metagaming player who's only interested in the wealth and damage output of the group.
I don't like the expensive material component for a spell that is critical and necessary to the typical game experience, and I don't use it

The problem with Raise dead is not that the PC are immune to death (I don't have a problem with that). The problem is everybody is.

You have to either ignore the possibilty of ressurrection, or make some weird DM fiats.

For example: in my currect campaign, Way of the Wicked, the PC are a bunch of evil Asmodean worshippers trying to tear down a LG realm. Through the adventure path, they start infiltrating the LG church and killing and assasinating knights, clerics and officials. Finally, they kill the king. Very interesting plot, with lot of interaction.

You know what? It shouldn't matter. The only reason it does, is because the AP says so. Any of the clerics could resurrect any of the other clerics. The king could be raised too.

Spoiler:
The BBEG in the last module (the king's daughter) can cast Wish and raise his father in a blink

If 5000g could buy you a new life, any one with 5000g or more will pay for it. That will render a LOT of plots useless, unless the DM simply say that, for same reason, nobody cares to ressurrect the king.

The Exchange

(Quick side note: in my campaigns, death brings about succession, inheritance and the conditions of any wills that have been legally submitted. A king who returns from the grave can advise his son, the new King, but cannot legally return to kingship as long as there is any heir. Adventurers, who usually die intestate and often childless as well, don't need to worry about these consequences; they're just for background plausibility.)


gustavo iglesias wrote:
nobody cares to ressurrect the king

Or the king prefers it in the afterlife, or Pharasma has decreed that he shall not live again.


Assuming they are high enough level. And have access to diamonds.

You know, diamonds, that rare stone that is valuable because it's so rare? You need a single diamond worth 5k to raise dead. Did you decapitate your victims and pulp the skull (or some other means of ruining the body)? That diamond required doubles in value, and the cleric required just jumped four levels.

A slaughter through a church might be mitigated by resurrection spells, but even assuming this brings them back to full strength (highly unlikely, as even twenty deaths is horrifically expensive to undo, and would probably take a week or longer just to cast the spells), the assassins can just come back and slaughter them again, in their weakened negative level condition. How many times will your foes be able to pony up 200k gp to restore their organization to full strength? And that's a small organization, of twenty folks.

To me, the bigger issue with raise spells is that the PCs will employ them casually to undo deaths of NPCs they like, or feel guilty about getting killed. Anytime I hear "just" applied to the cost of or the res-spell itself, my teeth grind.


News flash: spells allow you to do things that are not otherwise possible.

Deal.

The Exchange

Well, yeah, but there's no harm in ranking them in overall order of campaign impact. I don't recall ever seeing a thread titled, "Animate rope is destroying my campaign!"

...yet.


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Shatter: Breaks things.


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Matthew Downie wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
nobody cares to ressurrect the king
Or the king prefers it in the afterlife, or Pharasma has decreed that he shall not live again.

Or my personal preference, remove resurrection from the game as a 'spell'. If you want to bring someone back from the dead, it's a quest-worthy event, not 'plunk down some money and start chanting'.

The Exchange

Not a bad thought. If players had to deal directly with the Grim Reaper (or Pharasma/Wee Jas/Kelemvor/the Black Rabbit of Inle/whoever) every time they wanted a buddy back - and we're talking bargains here, a favor for a favor, not some trivial Diplomacy check - it would have a little more story weight than "I carry a bunch of diamonds around because they can be used to cure the Dead condition."


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Zhayne wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
nobody cares to ressurrect the king
Or the king prefers it in the afterlife, or Pharasma has decreed that he shall not live again.
Or my personal preference, remove resurrection from the game as a 'spell'. If you want to bring someone back from the dead, it's a quest-worthy event, not 'plunk down some money and start chanting'.

Oh yeah.

Players: “Hey Bob, we have to go on a quest for about 4 nites of gaming in order to raise you, so I guess you can just stay home or you can play my Mount.”

Bob: “yeah, sounds like real fun. Look, instead- here’s Knuckles the 87th , go ahead and loot Knuckles the 86th body. He's got some cool stuff."

The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.

The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?

The Exchange

Some very solid points, DrDeth, but perhaps we should adjourn this to a different thread on resurrection (or, haha, resurrect one of the old ones) so we don't entirely sidetrack the discussion on which spells cause the most problems from a GM's perspective. For this thread's purposes let's just stick a pin in "Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection" and move on, eh?

(I deliberately don't include reincarnate, because - well, players fear it, and so its ability to not only raise the dead but restore their youth remains strictly a tool of GMs.)


OKeydokeley.


Matthew Downie wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
nobody cares to ressurrect the king
Or the king prefers it in the afterlife, or Pharasma has decreed that he shall not live again.

Why would the LG king of LG kingdom who is a knight let his kingdom burn under the grip of evil asmodeans? Why Pharasma would decree that the PC can live again, but NPC can't?

That's just the same I said. The king will not resurrect, because of plot.


Kain Darkwind wrote:

Assuming they are high enough level. And have access to diamonds.

You know, diamonds, that rare stone that is valuable because it's so rare? You need a single diamond worth 5k to raise dead. Did you decapitate your victims and pulp the skull (or some other means of ruining the body)? That diamond required doubles in value, and the cleric required just jumped four levels.

A slaughter through a church might be mitigated by resurrection spells, but even assuming this brings them back to full strength (highly unlikely, as even twenty deaths is horrifically expensive to undo, and would probably take a week or longer just to cast the spells), the assassins can just come back and slaughter them again, in their weakened negative level condition. How many times will your foes be able to pony up 200k gp to restore their organization to full strength? And that's a small organization, of twenty folks.

To me, the bigger issue with raise spells is that the PCs will employ them casually to undo deaths of NPCs they like, or feel guilty about getting killed. Anytime I hear "just" applied to the cost of or the res-spell itself, my teeth grind.

The king's daughter can cast wish. Has the material components to cast wish. Actually, DO cast wish in the final battle.

She just never figured she could cast wish to bring her father back. Because plot.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Simulacrum, planar binding, gate are the main offenders

Don't forget Polymorph Any Object.


pad300 wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Simulacrum, planar binding, gate are the main offenders
Don't forget Polymorph Any Object.

That one is pretty bad too. And obviously Wish (couse can clone several of the others), and the Greater Create Demiplane, for time sheaningangs, and some others that can also be used to completely break the campaign world for infinite money and other stuff.

It's just that the three mentioned above are the easier to break. Actually, I can't think of a way to use simulacrum which ISN'T broken.


Thanks to all for the input so far! Great discussions on Simalacrum and Resurrect-type spells.

I should have mentioned it in the first post, but anyone have any thoughts on psionic powers?

I would like to point out that I'm not necessarily asking for what spells are "broken", but which ones in your opinion can "short-circuit" a battle or the DM's storyline, etc.

And just a reminder : I'm not thinking of banning these spells, just extending their casting times and making them a little dangerous for the caster to use.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
It's just that the three mentioned above are the easier to break. Actually, I can't think of a way to use simulacrum which ISN'T broken.

Well, a Simulacrum of yourself or other party members isn't all that broken, though still dang useful.

gustavo iglesias wrote:
It's just that the three mentioned above are the easier to break. Actually, I can't think of a way to use simulacrum which ISN'T broken.

Well, a Simulacrum of yourself or other party members isn't all that broken, though still dang useful.

Extending the casting time won't fix some of these and will seem very much like a poor kludge. If you make it notable enough (2 rounds to cast or something), then all you'll be doing is encouraging people to just use direct damage attacks.

And some of these spells really aren't notably unbalanced. I feel half of the complaint is that some of the spells are merely GOOD and we don't want people having good things.

Heck, you don't even have all of the Monster Summoning spells there. They got a ridiculous buff in PF (compared to the nerf Nature's Ally got). They are some of the most useful and powerful spells in the game as well.


ZenFox42 wrote:

I would like to point out that I'm not necessarily asking for what spells are "broken", but which ones in your opinion can "short-circuit" a battle or the DM's storyline, etc.

Any of them can. That's not necessarily a bad thing though. Players with narrative power is a good thing to avoid railroading, and there are a ton of things that can short-circuit a battle in and out of magic, including pounce, bows, improved disarm and lances. Personally, I don't find it a problem.

The broken spells, however, ARE a problem. They need to be addressed, or the player need to nod to a gentleman's agreement to not abuse them, or the entire campaign is at risk, which is much more dangerous than fight #87 lasting 2 rounds instead of 3


Drachasor wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
It's just that the three mentioned above are the easier to break. Actually, I can't think of a way to use simulacrum which ISN'T broken.
Well, a Simulacrum of yourself or other party members isn't all that broken, though still dang useful.

It is.

For 30.000, you can have a Rod of lesser metamagic, which allow you to cast spells of level 1-3 quickened. For 5.000, you have a 10hd version of yoursef, which can cast spells of level 1-5 while you cast your own spells. For the 30.000 that the rod costs, you can have SIX copies of yourself, so you can cast SEVEN spells per round (six of them have to be level 1-5).
Seven empowered fireballs are pretty nice, and that's just the simplest and easiest way to use 6 lvl 1-5 spells. You could overload the encounter with 6 battlefield control spells instead, for example.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
It's just that the three mentioned above are the easier to break. Actually, I can't think of a way to use simulacrum which ISN'T broken.
Well, a Simulacrum of yourself or other party members isn't all that broken, though still dang useful.

It is.

For 30.000, you can have a Rod of lesser metamagic, which allow you to cast spells of level 1-3 quickened. For 5.000, you have a 10hd version of yoursef, which can cast spells of level 1-5 while you cast your own spells. For the 30.000 that the rod costs, you can have SIX copies of yourself, so you can cast SEVEN spells per round (six of them have to be level 1-5).
Seven empowered fireballs are pretty nice, and that's just the simplest and easiest way to use 6 lvl 1-5 spells. You could overload the encounter with 6 battlefield control spells instead, for example.

Assuming you're 20th level when you try this trick


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
It's just that the three mentioned above are the easier to break. Actually, I can't think of a way to use simulacrum which ISN'T broken.
Well, a Simulacrum of yourself or other party members isn't all that broken, though still dang useful.

It is.

For 30.000, you can have a Rod of lesser metamagic, which allow you to cast spells of level 1-3 quickened. For 5.000, you have a 10hd version of yoursef, which can cast spells of level 1-5 while you cast your own spells. For the 30.000 that the rod costs, you can have SIX copies of yourself, so you can cast SEVEN spells per round (six of them have to be level 1-5).
Seven empowered fireballs are pretty nice, and that's just the simplest and easiest way to use 6 lvl 1-5 spells. You could overload the encounter with 6 battlefield control spells instead, for example.
Assuming you're 20th level when you try this trick

A 14th level char can make 7th level copies of himself, allowing him to cast up to 4th level spells in the same round he casts is own 7th level spells. A 13th level char (the bare minimum for Simulacrum) can do the same with a 6th level simulacrum, casting up to 3rd level slots (which is the same than the rod can quicken, btw).

Also, you can copy the BBEG, which is much stronger. A 13th level wizard in Rise of Runelords could do 6 copies of Karzaug, for example, for the same cost he can buy a lesser quickening rod.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
It's just that the three mentioned above are the easier to break. Actually, I can't think of a way to use simulacrum which ISN'T broken.
Well, a Simulacrum of yourself or other party members isn't all that broken, though still dang useful.

It is.

For 30.000, you can have a Rod of lesser metamagic, which allow you to cast spells of level 1-3 quickened. For 5.000, you have a 10hd version of yoursef, which can cast spells of level 1-5 while you cast your own spells. For the 30.000 that the rod costs, you can have SIX copies of yourself, so you can cast SEVEN spells per round (six of them have to be level 1-5).
Seven empowered fireballs are pretty nice, and that's just the simplest and easiest way to use 6 lvl 1-5 spells. You could overload the encounter with 6 battlefield control spells instead, for example.

And with no protections, that's going to be 5k that is worthless pretty soon. Having a Simulacrum on the front line in a high level combat is going to get it killed really quick. Their spells will not be able to handle spell resistance, saves will be made against them, etc, etc. It's fair to say your Quickened Fireball will probably end up doing more damage against most high level opponents.

Edit: Regarding copying the BBEG that's not what I was talking about. I was explicitly just talking about copying yourself or other party members.

Edit2: A simulacrum is a resource that needs more protecting. They are rather delicate if done of creatures with a CR equal to your own or less. The spell does need fixing, but not all uses of it are broken.


DrDeth wrote:


"For people who can teleport across the world, literally travel to Hell and back, and conjure deadly fire and stone out of thin air, death is a trivial obstacle.
In terms of game math, the 5000gp cost for the spell also encourages metagaming, which is bad. See, if you have a party of 3 live PCs and one dead PC, they have two options:
1) Scrounge up 5000gp (either from the dead PC's stuff or from a group donation) and have the dead PC raised. Net result: party has 5000gp less than before and two more negative levels than before.
2) Leave the PC dead, divide his stuff among the PCs or sell it, have the dead PC's player bring in a new character (who has full gear for his level, and no negative levels). Net result: party has X more gp than before (where at worst X is half the expected wealth for a character of their level) and no extra negative levels.
In other words, it's better for the party to bring in a new PC than to resurrect the old one. Which is lame. In a "roleplaying" game that barely encourages roleplaying at all, costly PC death actively DIScourages roleplaying someone who's compassionate about a fallen ally, and ENcourages you to be a mercenary metagaming player who's only interested in the wealth and damage output of the group.
I don't like the expensive material component for a spell that is critical and necessary to the typical game experience, and I don't use it

My thoughts on it...

This wouldn't work well in Pathfinder probably, but one of my favorite rules from Adventurer Conquorer King is that new characters begin level 1 with no magic items. However, every good coin you spend in reveling, drunken debauchery puts one point in an XP pot, which your new character starts with. So your new character will have to use your old character's gear, and unless you have been playing it up and putting gold into your new character fund, he will come in severely nerfed. Either plan accordingly, or pay for the resurrection.


ZenFox42 wrote:


Battle breaker - significantly turns the tide in battle, with little that can be done about it
Mystery breaker - short-circuits looking for clues, figuring things out, using skill rolls, etc.
Death breaker - allows PC's to not worry about death or negative levels
Story breaker - most of the time, short-circuits the need for traveling from point A to point B (which takes time, provides opportunities for encounters and side-adventures, etc.)
Counterspell breaker - there's only maybe 1-3 spells that can effectively counter or get around the spell

Black Tentacles (4) – battle breaker
Dimension Door (4) – story breaker
Discern Lies (4) – mystery breaker
Divination (4) – mystery breaker
Freedom of Movement (4) – battle breaker
Geas, Lesser (4) – can “dominate” for a week
Globe of Invulnerability (4,6) – battle breaker
Invisibility, Greater (4) – counterspell breaker
Restoration (2, 4=remove permanent negative level, 7) – death breaker
Scrying (4|5) – mystery breaker
Solid Fog (4) – counterspell breaker
Stoneskin (4) – battle breaker

Commune (5) – mystery breaker
Dominate Person (5) – total control
Feeblemind (5) – spellcaster breaker
Flame Strike (5) – battle breaker
Planar Travel (5) – story breaker
Polymorph (5,7) – only if you get the special abilities of the creature
Raise Dead (5) – death breaker
Teleport (5,7) – story breaker
Wall of Force (5) – battle breaker,...

Aqueous Orb- Battle Breaker until after tier 7-9, unless it's a very rare flying or incorporeal monster.

Emergency force Dome-prevents any serious attacks until the spell runs out.
Pit, any- battle breaker. Usually players will have difficulty attacking the monster in the pit, and vice versa, until you gain access to Fly.


Nelith wrote:
Emergency force Dome-prevents any serious attacks until the spell runs out.

Emergency Force Shield is great for saving your hide from something hideous but if you want to continue to contribute to the battle you are probably using your standard action next turn to drop it.

Once you are in the force dome you wont be able to cast spells out of it. It works like Wall of Force and so will block line of effect. You could use it as a way to protect you while casting a 1 round cast spell like summon monster but you couldn't make the summon appear beyond the boundaries of the sphere.


How many times can the dear princess wish her father back to life before it bankrupts the country? Three? Four? Ten? If you destroy the body, it requires two wishes, that's 50k gp.

And that's just one target. If you are an assassin PrC, you can actually prevent wish from working via angel of death, or interfere with it working smoothly via true death.

Resurrection being the focus of a particular plot isn't a sticking point for me. It costs enough to be prohibitive to be seriously abused in character. But when a nameless NPC gets waxed because the PCs lollygag or fling AoEs without concern, and then they respond with "I'll just raise him, it's only 5k gp....", that starts to kill it.


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Being a narcissist I prefer to use Simulacrum for orgies.

Or sell them, a seventh level wizard thing is worth quite a bit I'd assume.

Or franchises. There's a wizard in my game who's set up shop in every important city in Numeria. He specializes in low level crafting and transport/shipping.

Which reminds me: Summon Monster III.
Because you can use it to get creatures with greater teleport at will. Who can be given bags of holding with things inside. Or people holding their breath.

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