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While that wouldn't be out of bounds for a wish that didn't use the spell contingency, unfortunately, since he specifically used the spell contingency, he can't do that because he has to target himself with the spellPerhaps we should read that as "targeted for a dispel magic counterspell" rather. I've not had the contingency fire yet in my runnings....Between giving Krune quicken on the rod of runes and having the Wishtingency work as a wish instead of a 3rd-level dispel magicGreater Dispel Magic, actually.
I'm not aware of anyone using AMF against him, due to lack of access. Generally speaking, clerics and wizards prefer not to shut themselves down to potentially shut down the enemy.
Looks like regular to me. He is one level too low for his contingency to contain greater.Krune used a wish to cast contingency
before entering stasis. If Krune is ever affected by a spell
effect that would impede his ability to teleport, that spell
effect is targeted by dispel magic (CL 17th).
The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person
So you have to use a targeted dispel that targets the creature of yourself.
Also, in our case we had the AMF up on an angel (yeah that same one) before Krune was even there, so even if the counterspell was possible, it wouldn't have helped.
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Are players able to make Knowledge Planes checks to identify Kurshu and ask questions about her stat block, since of course she is a unique outsider and hasn't likely been seen for 10 millenia, what knowledge could they possibly have of her?
It really isn't even that hard of a DC either to identify her, 25 for 7-8 and 28 10-11, not really outside the realm of possibility for a wizard, alchemist or magus.
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Are players able to make Knowledge Planes checks to identify Kurshu and ask questions about her stat block, since of course she is a unique outsider and hasn't likely been seen for 10 millenia, what knowledge could they possibly have of her?
The knowledge that the Society has been gathering about Lissala and her worshippers for the entire season?
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her being a herald of lissala and the work in season 4... i would definitely give the party a planes or knowledge religion check to figure her out.
Are players able to make Knowledge Planes checks to identify Kurshu and ask questions about her stat block, since of course she is a unique outsider and hasn't likely been seen for 10 millenia, what knowledge could they possibly have of her?The knowledge that the Society has been gathering about Lissala and her worshippers for the entire season?
Ah okay fair enough, I forgot about the earlier scenarios that lead up to this, by all rights they should have been considered parts.
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If there are any Silver Crusade members I give them the bit from their faction mission but generally skip the rest here.
However I also have her talk while she slaughters the PCs. (The scenario even suggests some things for her to say, to give clues about the rune plates)
I generally do something like "Supplicate yourselves before Kurshu the Undying, Herald of Lissala and know that the time of Krune's awakening is at hand. Should you surrender now. know that scrolls of his victory shall be written upon your discarded flesh."
When the PCs inevitably don't surrender... "You are not even worthy of having your blood spilled in this holy place. Begone!"
Generally one of the PCs then disappears in a puff of brimstone as Kurshu activates her power surge planeshifts a PC to hell. (Assuming she manages to touch them with her +16/+18 and they fail a DC 26 Will Save.)
Considering I've TPKed a group in the first combat, and severely crippled another (planeshifted 2 PCs, int drained a barbarian to 0 leaving a single PC to explore further) I probably run this fight harder than is reasonable.
As a note I have not yet run into any tieflings or aasimar to nom on while running this scenario.
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As a note I have not yet run into any tieflings or aasimar to nom on while running this scenario.
I had a sleeping tiefling via Cloak of Dreams, but she died before her next turn. :(
For identifying her, I went with 10 + CR + 15 as suggested by Knowledge rules and inferred from her rarity as described in the scenario. As a herald, I allow both Planes and Religion. Someone might know who she is but very unlikely to know what she can do. My table panicked when they realized she had regeneration. They figured out it was regeneration at which point I read them the mechanics. They panicked when fire and cold didn't do it. Lucky for them the alchemist had Acid Bombs.
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For identifying her, I went with 10 + CR + 15 as suggested by Knowledge rules and inferred from her rarity as described in the scenario.
You added 10 due to rarity from the 'or more' addendum? I suppose that would jack the DC up to a respectable number for knowledge focused PCs, but less focused PCs are going to have a hard time of it.
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For identifying her, I went with 10 + CR + 15 as suggested by Knowledge rules and inferred from her rarity as described in the scenario.You added 10 due to rarity from the 'or more' addendum? I suppose that would jack the DC up to a respectable number for knowledge focused PCs, but less focused PCs are going to have a hard time of it.
Sorry, it was a mistake in my rush to post. CR + 15 is what I did. In my hurry to post, I was thinking it start at DC 10. It starts at DC 0 plus CR plus rarity adjustments.
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I'm running this on the weekend and I have a quick question.
I like the idea of bringing back Kurshu with Krune's wish, but I'm not sure it can. Wish says it simulates Resurrection and Resurrection can't bring back outsiders, which Kurshu is. Does Wish bypass this limitation?
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be resurrected.
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Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life.
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Yes Wish can bring her back but it requires you to use the greater effect version rather than the default "these things always work as they say" version. Ask yourself this, if a player wanted to do something like this how might you consider perverting their desires?
I wouldn't. It would either rez the target or fail.
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Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life.
If limited wish is sufficient to bring an outsider back to life, why would wish be restricted as to being able to do it?
According the the quote Mark posted, it isn't that the raise and resurrect spells are too weak, but rather they are the wrong kind of magic for the task. There is no separate soul to restore to the body of an outsider.
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Just a quick cross-post from a blog discussion talking about Krune's mind-set:
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Krune entered his particular form of hibernation expecting to be out of the picture for about a century (maybe a millennium) and that he would still essentially be a god-king when he awoke to reclaim his kingdom. In his time, his mastery of runes made other runelords weak in the knees despite his being among the less magically proficient such rulers. Anyone who met him treated him with respect, deference, and/or obeisance. Anyone who failed to do so tended to die at his hand in a gruesome, "let's set an example" sort of way.
When he awakens to find adventurers in his sanctum, his conditioned response is to demand obedience then use magic to squash the trespassers and get back to the business of reclaiming his throne. Once it's clear he cannot just brush aside these strangers (such as from their dealing lots of damage to him or otherwise thwarting his opening play), then he realizes that this is a real threat and pulls out the big guns.
Think of it as though Krune is a tank, and everyone else is an unexceptional sheep. His typical response to an unruly sheep would be to run it down or lazily fire a cannon to put the flock in its place. Even on a good day, an angry sheep might headbutt the tank and cause no damage before the runelord would obliterate it. Krune has no reason to believe these new sheep (the PCs) are actually a threat.
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I think that is a great explanation of the psyche of Krune. Why would he bother wasting his most powerful spells on peons. What he sees when he wakes are not Runelords... not people that he would have cause to fear. No, they are mere peons... Members of lesser races, ones who should be his thralls. In fact, many are marked by his patron, by her evil. He merely needs to put them in their place, for they may have forgotten their fear of the Runelord of Sloth, beloved of Lisalla. They will remember.
It is not until the peons show they have bite would he need to pull the "big guns." Before that, he can merely toy with them. He may not yet realize that he is more vulnerable than he expected if the pcs have destroyed his runes.
But, when he realizes their threat... And their insolence... They must be made to pay. Not a quick death, but one that will linger... they will learn the price of their defiance.
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I just ran this in Hard Mode at Megacon 2014
The party came prepared with many magic circles vs evil which drained Krune's dispells. He frustrated the party by using walls of stone all over the place. When he ran out of dispells he cast wish, by this time the players had comprehend languages and tongues going so they heard the wording of the wish which was. "I really wish that entire adventuring party would go to hell" They failed the saving throws and popped into the first circle, the next person in the initiative was the witch who cast banish and banished the party back to the prime material plane. Effectively they succeeded and failed at the same time, they succeeded by living to fight another day but failed in stopping Krune. All in all my table had fun, and that's the point right?
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I just ran this in Hard Mode at Megacon 2014
The party came prepared with many magic circles vs evil which drained Krune's dispells. He frustrated the party by using walls of stone all over the place. When he ran out of dispells he cast wish, by this time the players had comprehend languages and tongues going so they heard the wording of the wish which was. "I really wish that entire adventuring party would go to hell" They failed the saving throws and popped into the first circle, the next person in the initiative was the witch who cast banish and banished the party back to the prime material plane. Effectively they succeeded and failed at the same time, they succeeded by living to fight another day but failed in stopping Krune. All in all my table had fun, and that's the point right?
I'm glad everyone had fun!
Some quick notes, mostly for others reading along at home to keep in mind--banishment doesn't work if the caster isn't on his or her own home plane, isn't a witch spell except as a patron spell for boundaries (at level 12) and dimensions (at level 14), and would only work on 2 HD of creatures per caster level (so not the whole party), so there's a few reasons the player of the witch was pulling a fast one. If it was a dismissal, that would have required the obscure Peace patron (level 8) so is possible, and it works when you aren't on your home plane, but it is single target only. Either way, there is a 20% chance per creature that the creature is sent to a random plane instead of their home plane, which could be even more deadly than being together as a group in Hell.
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I'm planning to GM this scenario this Sunday. I've already played through said scenario, and read it extensively. I'm not running hard mode, and currently looking at a high tier party, but with a couple 8's in the mix I'm getting a bit nervous. I don't have any particular issue with killing players in this scenario, but I want them to have a chance. I've told them ahead of time how difficult the scenario is, even without hard mode. I've told them to come prepared. Now reading through again I'm beginning to think that one bad die roll at any point will result in an unavoidable TPK. It happens, this is Krune. But my one question is, the tactics are open ended to a certain extent. Is it the general belief that when not in hard mode, I should still play Krune to the best of my abilities? I tend to look at GMing as the GM facilitating a story for everyone to enjoy, which means sometimes playing tactics less optimally when I have the lenience in scenario to and it warrants the situation. But Krune has 31 Intelligence, and is a mighty caster, a paragon of magical power. Am I wrong in thinking that I shouldn't hold back at all, and really give the group a scare? I know two people attending who are rather attached to their characters, but want a challenge. Is there such a thing as too far?
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I would say that if you warned them then it is on them.
As far as taking it easy, I would go over their characters ahead of time if possible to get an idea on how they are built,etc..
how they handle the 1rst encounter will help you gauge the final encounter.
Krune will appear, order them to lie down face 1rst to pay homage (if anyone can understand him.
He goes off and summons stuff. You could choose which creatures he summons to suit party strengths and weaknesses. Keep it challenging but mot too hard.
Remember, he loses things depending on how many ruins party destroys. Although at high tier it is not as much as low tier.
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Remember: Krune doesn't see them as a threat the first round. He tosses off some stuff that is painful, but not a straight kill. After that, he realizes that they are *not* here to worship him, and they *are* a threat. At that point, he would start to work with all the might of a high level 31 intelligence wizard.
Run away. Use summons. If he isn't in the room, he can't command the summons to block the exit portal, so the party still has a chance to run.
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Remember: Krune doesn't see them as a threat the first round.
My one counterexample to this would be if the PCs drop a silence or anti-magic field (or something similar) on his coffin. In those circumstances, it should be immediately apparent to him (with his, what, 31 int) that they mean business.
The PCs have lots of rounds to do that kind of stuff, so if they choose to try and gimp him before he even gets to act he should be a little more hostile initially. Though, that's not to say that he should break out the really killer stuff immediately; he should probably just not start out softballing too much.
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I've run it twice now, and both times the players felt challenged and that they barely survived. That's what I think is an ideal running of the scenario.
The last time I ran it, Krune got cut out of his sarcophagus by an adamantine axe-wielding barbarian. He was unable to act before he was almost dead (managed to disable all runes). He used dimensional steps to get away and then Phase Door to hide in a wall. He summoned bralanis to heal him, but the party had True Seeing going which allows seeing into ethereal. He was mostly healed when a successful Dispel Magic popped him out. The party had a couple wands of Dispel Magic at high level thanks to a particular scenario, and they rolled well. His Black Tentacles suffered the same fate. He readied an empowered maximized horrid wilting for when the last party member ran into the room. It went off and made them all pray that the barbarian's attack would finish him off. It did.
Die rolls can make a big difference.
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Here's a quick "after action" report on our group's defeat at the hands of Krune on hard mode. I figure our experience might give future GM's some ideas...
Our group: barbarian/fighter, fighter (archer), hellknight signifer, oracle, rogue and wizard (me). Buffed sky-high, including freedom of movement, see invisible, heroism, hero's feast, hightened continual flames, etc, etc.
Since Kurshu knew we were coming, the GM had her use a limited wish to cast a permanent image just west of the altar, so we couldn't see Krune's chamber. No surprise round for her, and I got a 45 to ID her, so I got one question (as usual for my wizard, "resistances and immunities please.") Kurshu dropped a fireball on us and then went down to a hail of arrows and backstabs. The signifer animates Kurshu's remains as a skeleton.
All of the runes are taken out fairly easily, and the Lashmistress and company go down in a few rounds, then the fun starts. :-)
We spend a while playing with the refuge tokens, giving Krune (still behind the permanent image) at least ten rounds to prep. He starts by wishing for a prismatic wall just behind the permanent image, in case we see through the illusion. He then summons lots of stuff (bebilith, nalfeshnee, shadow demons and a chaos demon at the very least) and starts buffing.
A few lower level summons attack us while we're still in area A4, which we dispatch pretty easily. Then an unholy nimbus covers us and we immediately have to make Will saves. The oracle fails and gets dazed for seven rounds, preventing any future healing. The first horrid wilting hits, and we start deciding we'd be better off outside the room. The archer heads out, sees Krune at the entrance of the A4 hallway (with the bebilith right behind him) and calls for help. The bebilith hits him pretty hard.
I go ahead and pop an antimagic field and head over to Krune, but he disappears as soon as I get within 15 feet of him (contingency? immediate action?). I continue on and suppress the bebilith. Then the nalfeshnee (the GM's favorite level 9 summons) teleports into the room. The signifer tries to dismiss the nalfeshnee and fails. Archer heads back and gets hit down to 4 hit points. Black tentacles appear in the room but we all have freedom of movement going. I zip back and suppress the nalfeshnee. Another horrid wilting comes out for 108 damage and kills the barbarian/fighter. The archer stays in my antimagic field.
Only a few round of oracle dazing left, so we figure we can try to hold out in area A4. Unfortunately, Krune sends in his spear. First round it comes around the corner and double strikes the archer (one hit for about 25 and a crit for 56) to very dead. Next round it does the same to me - comes around the corner and hits once for 26 and then crits for 78.
The oracle comes out of daze, goes invisible and when Krune enters the room tries an empowered slay living, only to have spell turned back on him (he made his save). At this point everyone retreats through the portal, getting all the bodies except mine (I'm still in my own antimagic field). Half gold, no prestige (5pp for body recovery for me), and Shiela Hiedmarch lambasting us for doing such a pitiful job.
In the end, we never got a single attack on him. Getting all that prep time and dazing the oracle were definitely the deciding factors. Still, it was fun getting smashed. Looking forward to running this for other folks later.
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Here's a quick "after action" report on our group's defeat at the hands of Krune on hard mode. I figure our experience might give future GM's some ideas...
Our group: barbarian/fighter, fighter (archer), hellknight signifer, oracle, rogue and wizard (me). Buffed sky-high, including freedom of movement, see invisible, heroism, hero's feast, hightened continual flames, etc, etc.
Since Kurshu knew we were coming, the GM had her use a limited wish to cast a permanent image just west of the altar, so we couldn't see Krune's chamber. No surprise round for her, and I got a 45 to ID her, so I got one question (as usual for my wizard, "resistances and immunities please.") Kurshu dropped a fireball on us and then went down to a hail of arrows and backstabs. The signifer animates Kurshu's remains as a skeleton.
All of the runes are taken out fairly easily, and the Lashmistress and company go down in a few rounds, then the fun starts. :-)
We spend a while playing with the refuge tokens, giving Krune (still behind the permanent image) at least ten rounds to prep. He starts by wishing for a prismatic wall just behind the permanent image, in case we see through the illusion. He then summons lots of stuff (bebilith, nalfeshnee, shadow demons and a chaos demon at the very least) and starts buffing.
A few lower level summons attack us while we're still in area A4, which we dispatch pretty easily. Then an unholy nimbus covers us and we immediately have to make Will saves. The oracle fails and gets dazed for seven rounds, preventing any future healing. The first horrid wilting hits, and we start deciding we'd be better off outside the room. The archer heads out, sees Krune at the entrance of the A4 hallway (with the bebilith right behind him) and calls for help. The bebilith hits him pretty hard.
I go ahead and pop an antimagic field and head over to Krune, but he disappears as soon as I get within 15 feet of him (contingency?...
I definitely agree on Krune's prep time. I played on normal, but wanted Hard. My group was prepared and we'll built to where by the time Krune rose, we not only were waiting for him, we had a full 2 round to buff, it was either 1 or 2 full rounds. With all the runes being destroyed, Krune was left with trying to teleport out and summon while we looked for him. My fighter being hasted and having freedom of movement, he found Krune hiding and trying to summon stuff. The Summoner's dimension door allowed the eidolon to finish the job before my fighter got a swing off on Krune.
I am definitely saving a gm star to replay this on Hard mode. Even if wiped, I want the experience.
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I'm going to run this one soon, most likely for a 10-11 group (non-hard mode). I've read over this thread and there's a couple things I want to make sure I understand (and that I haven't seen in the thread). So please correct me if I'm wrong:
1) The spear has the dancing property. Dancing needs a standard action to activate, lasting 4 rounds. Since it's an intelligent item it can activate itself, but it still has to use its standard once every four rounds to do so (instead of using its other powers). On the other hand it could just use its actions on its other powers while Krune holds it.
2) The spear is Krune's Arcane Bond item. If it's off dancing, he thus needs to make a concentration check, DC 20 + spell level, to cast anything at all. His normal concentration check is +27, so automatic on anything below 9th level. However, the caster level reduction for destroyed runes reduces this, and along with any other conditional penalties might give him a significant chance of failing to cast many of his spells.
3) Krune has 2 hands, so if he wants to use that fancy metamagic rod he's likely to have to put up with 2) above so he has a free hand for somatic components, or spend the extra charge from the rod to add Still Spell.
Now to dig up stats for all the critters he's going to summon. There's a summon-focused sorcerer in the party, gonna be fun. (Last fight of Refuge of Time was crazy...)
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I've got a quick question... In non-hard mode, does he have SMIX or SMVIII in his spell book? I mean, it would seem to be a safe bet, so that he could use his arcane bond on one of those (assuming something more important isn't needed).
I don't want to push too hard, but I do want to challenge the party (which might be tough, given at least three of the characters), but I don't want to "cheat"
Spear casting Slow
Empowered Cloud Kill OR if there are 4 or more with runes he'll just shred their runes. I see this as the best time to pull it of, especially if some of them are affected by slow. I am guessing that for a standard action, I can shred about 5-7 runes. Taking out a couple ochre rhomboids and a couple sigal wafers would be a great start.
Then: if the party has already hurt him badly, he will quickened d-door to the entry way. Otherwise, it is likely that a quickened black tentacles will follow.
Round two will be slow again, most likely, since they have a summoner, and the empowered cloudkill. Again, more than that will depend on what he has left in the tank (does he need to get out of there?). A non-quickened wall of stone might be a good idea here, as well.
From thins point on, it depends on what happens. I don't see any reason to plan any further than this, as I won't have a clue as to what the pcs do
There was something else, but I cannot recall what it was.
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He doesn't have a spell book (I think his spells are on his body) and doesn't have those spells.
If he finds himself with time spam summons. Hostile Juxtaposition can be used on a summon which the hides itself for a safe place for Krune to be sent if he ever gets attacked.
He needs an action to activate his spell turning ring when he can.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies. This means if you have time keep getting as many spell turnings up as you have time for. The one with the most levels it can turn will be the one applied at any given time.
Combo: Empowered Maximized Cloudkill into Quickened Wall of Stone
One-shot: Empowered Maximized Horrid Wilting
Setting up a phase door which allows his summons can work well for moving safely between rooms and keep the party running in circles.
Empowered Summon Monster 6: Shadow Demons. Magic Jar can work or use Shadow Evocation for Detonate.
Quickened Summon Monster 5: The Ankylosaurus has a DC 23 save daze on hit.
Planar Binding?: If he ever has a long period of time get a Glabrezu. If he finds himself in his Phase Door feel free to chill and cast this as well as any other prep spells if the PCs have no way of forcing him out of the Phase Door (say sorry to your table later, they gonna get Wished on in non-hard mode).
I think that is pretty much all that is needed to be an effective Runelord.
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I went for tactics that would, well, piss off the players less. I don't have the scenario downloaded right now for some reason, so I'm going off memory for what he has.
Roll initiative.
On first turn, cast quickened black tentacles, cast phase door on back wall, walk through back wall.
On second turn, cast a quickened summon monster to create some large-sized creatures (I went for woolly rhinos) in both hallways to block charge and run actions, then start casting the highest-level summon monster you have. If the party had some heavily-armored characters, go for the bebilith. It's hilarious.
After that, just improv hardcore. Run as much as you can, using the phase door to slip back and forth between the inner and outer parts of the area. Try to split up the party as much as you can and block their movement. Buff if you don't appear to be in immediate danger.
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So, here is basically how it went down (at 10-11). The party was wailing on the sarcophagus, trying to break it, and they had gotten about 2/3 of the way through, when Krune pooped out (they had already broken all four chains). Because the sarcophagus had fallen, I had ough about having him shift to the entry way, but decided that would be a little cruel (and would let them know he was out).
The archer inquisitor beat him on initiative, and opened up in him. Seeing that, hKrune detected runic items on four of them, and decided to take control of them. Two ochre rhomboids, a sigil wafer, and a few brands were corrupted. At this time he used his quicken d-door to get out.
The fight went on with him popping between rooms, and the party running back and forth. They eventually got him because he really never got the chance to set up his more powerful summons, nor did I take the time to do a wall of stone...
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Krune's biggest weakness is that his spell selection is downright awful.
I mean what conjurer wouldn't have maze memorized? He should know way better than that, being a friggin' runelord with a super high int.
On the other hand, if he had a tricked out spell list, how would a party actually ever beat him?