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Wishing people into the sun is probably the most brutally effective tactic.
Speaking strictly for myself, if I were to run this adventure I would not use wish to create any GM discretion "greater effects". For one, used intelligently, the standard effects are devastating enough to an 11th level party. Second, discretion varies greatly, and what one individual might find reasonable another may think absurd.
Lastly, I can't help but have a strong feeling that if the shoe was on the other foot, and the PCs wished Krune into the sun, the GM would pervert the effects accordingly.
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That unfortunately is not a GM discretion effect. Wish says straight up that you can teleport anyone from anywhere on any plane to anywhere on any plane. When I played, I contemplated hitting myself with a dimensional anchor because I feared being plane shifted (didn't have the spell to get back). That teleport effect of wish can be negated.
This scenario is full of save or die/suck (limited wish -> disintegrate, baleful polymorph). One more is not to big a deal but I honestly think that alternative spells would be better use. If Krune wanted to kill everyone he would just repeat effect that nasty maximized empowered horrid wilting. Our GM came close to doubling down on that effect....it would have sucked because we where all visible for the second try.
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That unfortunately is not a GM discretion effect. Wish says straight up that you can teleport anyone from anywhere on any plane to anywhere on any plane.
What I get hung up on about this logic is this:
Is the sun a plane of existence? Or just a giant ball of energy? And if the later, how does that get classified for this purpose?
I am not a scientist, nor a specialist on Golarion's cosmology, so I claim no matter-of-fact ruling. It simply doesn't seem cut and dry to me.
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"A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."
So you can wish someone from Krune sanctum on the material plane to the sun on the material plane. Make a will save or....are there rules for being immersed in a sun? Maybe that fancy planet book paizo published? I am totally fine with a GM using this option as long as they have the rules for where ever they send PCs.
I still think it's a waste of a wish, but whatever floats your boat.
Developer
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Normally one could say that sun immersion is death.
But are there rules for it?
What if the character had fire immunity?
I think we should be careful before doing gm fiat things like this.
Oh!
The lovely Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Distant Worlds lays out the effects of being thrown into the Sun on page 5.
In the face of the star's nuclear fires, spells such as resist energy, protection from energy, and planetary adaptation are useless—only complete immunity to fire allows a creature to survive the immense heat. Any creatures or items not immune to fire are instantly and utterly consumed down to the molecular level—only spells such as wish or miracle can bring back such victims.
I imagine there are plenty of other horrifically cruel things that one could do with Krune's wish. That's not to say sun-exile is out of the picture, but do consider just how excessive such a death would be (even for hard mode). Personally, I would save sun-exile for only the most pompous of tables who not only decided to play hard mode but also made a point of publicly gloating about how easy it would be—perhaps in a thread dedicated to taunting the GM about how he would never be able to slay a particular PC, hmmm? Even then it would be more satisfying to squash them using only "normal" tactics.
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Personally, I would save sun-exile for only the most pompous of tables who not only decided to play hard mode but also made a point of publicly gloating about how easy it would be—perhaps in a thread dedicated to taunting the GM about how he would never be able to slay a particular PC, hmmm? Even then it would be more satisfying to squash them using only "normal" tactics.
>.<
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Normally one could say that sun immersion is death.
But are there rules for it?
What if the character had fire immunity?
I think we should be careful before doing gm fiat things like this.
Oh!
The lovely Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Distant Worlds lays out the effects of being thrown into the Sun on page 5.
In the face of the star's nuclear fires, spells such as resist energy, protection from energy, and planetary adaptation are useless—only complete immunity to fire allows a creature to survive the immense heat. Any creatures or items not immune to fire are instantly and utterly consumed down to the molecular level—only spells such as wish or miracle can bring back such victims.I imagine there are plenty of other horrifically cruel things that one could do with Krune's wish. That's not to say sun-exile is out of the picture, but do consider just how excessive such a death would be (even for hard mode). Personally, I would save sun-exile for only the most pompous of tables who not only decided to play hard mode but also made a point of publicly gloating about how easy it would be—perhaps in a thread dedicated to taunting the GM about how he would never be able to slay a particular PC, hmmm? Even then it would be more satisfying to squash them using only "normal" tactics.
John. You sir deserve a beer.
Everytime I read something from you these day's, it's like a tiny nugget of gooey deliciousness wrapped up in a pretty developer bowtie. I *LOVE* bowties.
Thank you sir, just thank you for restoring a tiny fractional amount of my faith in humanity.
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Oh!
The lovely Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Distant Worlds lays out the effects of being thrown into the Sun on page 5.
In the face of the star's nuclear fires, spells such as resist energy, protection from energy, and planetary adaptation are useless—only complete immunity to fire allows a creature to survive the immense heat. Any creatures or items not immune to fire are instantly and utterly consumed down to the molecular level—only spells such as wish or miracle can bring back such victims.I imagine there are plenty of other horrifically cruel things that one could do with Krune's wish. That's not to say sun-exile is out of the picture, but do consider just how excessive such a death would be (even for hard mode). Personally, I would save sun-exile for only the most pompous of tables who not only decided to play hard mode but also made a point of publicly gloating about how easy it would be—perhaps in a thread dedicated to taunting the GM about how he would never be able to slay a particular PC, hmmm? Even then it would be more satisfying to squash them using only "normal" tactics.
Hah, nice John!
Having a write up for that effect removes all reservation for me. As a rule, I try to stride away from anything as a GM or player that relies on too much GM discretion for exact effects. I like everyone to be on the same page.
I doubt fire immunity would save a PC from that. The Sun's gravity alone would turn a person into paste.
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On the note of porting people to another plane of existence (not the sun, since that would be instant death), couldn't the PCs use the refuge tokens to get back to Krune's Lair?
It's my understanding that the refuge tokens are a one-shot, one-way ticket into Krune's sanctum; they're destroyed when activated. The return trip from the sanctum is via the crystal shards attuned to each refuge token.
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I doubt fire immunity would save a PC from that. The Sun's gravity alone would turn a person into paste.
Only if the Distant Worlds book gives rules for gravity.
I think we need to be very careful about introducing real world physics into a PFS scenario, by GM fiat. Especially when the scenario is already ridiculously deadly as it is.
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I am about to run this scenario this coming week, and I had warned about how brutal this thing is for about a month now. I understand the tactics of the Runelord, but the questions I have are for the first encounter.
Now with that, she can cast Circle of Death, since it is a 6-th level spell. If all of this is correct, unless they make the save of DC 26 Fort, it just wipes out the whole party if they don't see her from the start?
And as her contingency plan, she still have her 3/day Plane Shift?
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I am about to run this scenario this coming week, and I had warned about how brutal this thing is for about a month now. I understand the tactics of the Runelord, but the questions I have are for the first encounter.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
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I am about to run this scenario this coming week, and I had warned about how brutal this thing is for about a month now. I understand the tactics of the Runelord, but the questions I have are for the first encounter.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Our GM did greater forbid action at high tier... twice. Honestly, all it did was waste 45 minutes of game time and piss us off.
I wouldn't recommend it. Go with something flashier and leave your table more time for Krune. I do like summon VI or fickle winds to deal with ranged attackers.
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Greater Forbid Action seems like a nice idea. It gives them at least a fighting chance, rather than a "oh, you are less than 10 hd, you die" kind of thing.
I got an opinion from a person who does NOT play PFS, and he, from an outside perspective, says that killing the whole party would simply have the people playing just stop playing PFS. So should I pull my punches to have them at least have a fighting chance? I had given them warnings that this would be brutal. So right now I am at an personal dilemma.
Edit:
I also have another question regarding said possible death(s):
If there is a TPK, with the storyline attached to the scenario, is it still even a possibility that they can get a rescue team to retrieve the bodies? Or is it that they have to at least reach the gem to get transported back with the medals?
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If it's a bunch of low will save PCs, greater forbid followed by flying around to deliver plane shifts is a pretty strong tactic. I agree that if you're not going to be able to deliver punch-outs during the 24 rounds of you-can't-attack... its pretty lame. That said, it's still tactically sound if you she thinks she can realistically punch some folks out with int drain... especially if any of them are tasty outsider (native)sI am about to run this scenario this coming week, and I had warned about how brutal this thing is for about a month now. I understand the tactics of the Runelord, but the questions I have are for the first encounter.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Our GM did greater forbid action at high tier... twice. Honestly, all it did was waste 45 minutes of game time and piss us off.
I wouldn't recommend it. Go with something flashier and leave your table more time for Krune. I do like summon VI or fickle winds to deal with ranged attackers.
There are many strong tactics. There are a massive number of options available to a caster of limited wish. So please, don't pick the one that wastes nearly an hour of table time with the runner up fight.
Make it difficult. Don't make everyone hate the game they're playing.
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Greater Forbid Action seems like a nice idea. It gives them at least a fighting chance, rather than a "oh, you are less than 10 hd, you die" kind of thing.
I got an opinion from a person who does NOT play PFS, and he, from an outside perspective, says that killing the whole party would simply have the people playing just stop playing PFS. So should I pull my punches to have them at least have a fighting chance? I had given them warnings that this would be brutal. So right now I am at an personal dilemma.
Edit:
I also have another question regarding said possible death(s):If there is a TPK, with the storyline attached to the scenario, is it still even a possibility that they can get a rescue team to retrieve the bodies? Or is it that they have to at least reach the gem to get transported back with the medals?
I DONT think you should pull punches. this is a 7-11, so there not beginners. this is supposed to be a tough fight. I see it this way, if they all quit because they all died than this was not the GAME for them. Or high level play isnt.
If they have the PP's than they can be recovered, and raised.|
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Greater Forbid Action seems like a nice idea. It gives them at least a fighting chance, rather than a "oh, you are less than 10 hd, you die" kind of thing.
I got an opinion from a person who does NOT play PFS, and he, from an outside perspective, says that killing the whole party would simply have the people playing just stop playing PFS. So should I pull my punches to have them at least have a fighting chance? I had given them warnings that this would be brutal. So right now I am at an personal dilemma.
Edit:
I also have another question regarding said possible death(s):If there is a TPK, with the storyline attached to the scenario, is it still even a possibility that they can get a rescue team to retrieve the bodies? Or is it that they have to at least reach the gem to get transported back with the medals?
If you've been playing PFS long enough to have a level 10 guy, and you choose to play hard mode, you know what you are getting into.
I don't think anyone will stop playing PFS if you TPK them in this scenario.
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I agree that Greater Forbid action is a strong spell to use. However, please note that it is completely negated by any of the protection spells. My whole party had magic circle vs evil up while fighting Krune.
If the party buffs and gets to Krune before the 90 min time they can have buffs up that completely negate whole swaths of the tactics section. No evil summons, BT, cloud kill, acid cloud, slow, etc.
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When I GMed this the party was ready for Krune. They had life bubble up, they were all flying or air walking via some means. They were all protected from evil, they were mostly hiding in a tiny hut. They had Freedom of Movements going on as well as a few see invisibilities just in case.
They had even paid the 500gp each for +2 alchemical bonus to saves from Orchid's Drops and activated their Emerald Elixirs. Along with half a dozen other buffs each I don't remember.
I think the monk was complaining of being weighed down by magic.
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LOL! Sounds like my party.
We went in heavily buffed. We spent a good chunk on consumables and buffs. To save some cash we even called in a Cuoatl and had it use all of it's buffs just before we TP'd in.
I, the wizard of the party, had:
See invis, tongues, nondetection, invisibility, overland flight, mage armor, delay poison, freedom of movement, Magic circle vs evil, life bubble, telepathic bond, Bear's endurance, heroism, blessing of fervor, resist energy (acid), and maybe a couple others.
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Ok, thank you for your opinions. I still have two questions:
- The first one was what I asked a bit before: If there is a TPK, with the storyline attached to the scenario, is it still even a possibility that they can get a rescue team to retrieve the bodies? Or is it that they have to at least reach the gem to get transported back with the medals?
- The compromise of the party is not optimal. 4/5 of the people playing are playing thier first characters: Fighter, Fighter/Barbarian, Barbarian/Alchemist, and a Wizard. The only person who has options has a martial frontline combatant or a face bard. This is really bad in terms of of the outlook. Should I take into consideration of the party composition, or should I continue with the no-pulled-punch playstyle? They are not playing up, and not playing hard mode, I can guarentee that, but even then, to pull a DC 26 Circle of Death to them before turn 1, should I?
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Ok, thank you for your opinions. I still have two questions:
- The first one was what I asked a bit before: If there is a TPK, with the storyline attached to the scenario, is it still even a possibility that they can get a rescue team to retrieve the bodies? Or is it that they have to at least reach the gem to get transported back with the medals?
Body retrieval is still a go. Heck, the Pathfinder Society will go retrieve a body from another plane / planet. They will have ways of getting the PCs. If I remember correctly the society had other tokens, maybe they can use those to retrieve the bodies.
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Developer
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Body retrieval is still a go. Heck, the Pathfinder Society will go retrieve a body from another plane / planet. They will have ways of getting the PCs. If I remember correctly the society had other tokens, maybe they can use those to retrieve the bodies.Ok, thank you for your opinions. I still have two questions:
- The first one was what I asked a bit before: If there is a TPK, with the storyline attached to the scenario, is it still even a possibility that they can get a rescue team to retrieve the bodies? Or is it that they have to at least reach the gem to get transported back with the medals?
One of these days there should be a scenario that involves body recovery and nothing else. Some other Pathfinders just payed the 5 PP to be recovered.
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That would be an interesting scenario:
"Ok Venture-Captain, what task do you have for us to do today?"
"Well, you see, there was a party of Pathfinders that had failed their mission that I had given them a few days back. Using their prestiege, they are requesting for us to retrieve their bodies. We have no idea if they have enough gold or prestiege with us for a revival, so just grab the bodies and their gear and you can get your prestiege."
"...So we are the body retrieval program..."
"Yup! Good Luck!"
Sounds sort of like a pyramid scheme....
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One of these days there should be a scenario that involves body recovery and nothing else. Some other Pathfinders just payed the 5 PP to be recovered.Body retrieval is still a go. Heck, the Pathfinder Society will go retrieve a body from another plane / planet. They will have ways of getting the PCs. If I remember correctly the society had other tokens, maybe they can use those to retrieve the bodies.Ok, thank you for your opinions. I still have two questions:
- The first one was what I asked a bit before: If there is a TPK, with the storyline attached to the scenario, is it still even a possibility that they can get a rescue team to retrieve the bodies? Or is it that they have to at least reach the gem to get transported back with the medals?
I keep telling myself I should write that and submit it as a quest. I just have never gotten around to it...
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Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Sheffield
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Ok, thank you for your opinions. I still have two questions:
- The first one was what I asked a bit before: If there is a TPK, with the storyline attached to the scenario, is it still even a possibility that they can get a rescue team to retrieve the bodies? Or is it that they have to at least reach the gem to get transported back with the medals?
- The compromise of the party is not optimal. 4/5 of the people playing are playing thier first characters: Fighter, Fighter/Barbarian, Barbarian/Alchemist, and a Wizard. The only person who has options has a martial frontline combatant or a face bard. This is really bad in terms of of the outlook. Should I take into consideration of the party composition, or should I continue with the no-pulled-punch playstyle? They are not playing up, and not playing hard mode, I can guarentee that, but even then, to pull a DC 26 Circle of Death to them before turn 1, should I?
I'd argue that by the time they've reached the appropriate level for Waking Rune, the fact that they're on their first characters is immaterial. Playing with 5 is hard, mind you (you suffer 6-player difficulty without 6 players) but I think you should run the scenario the way you think it should be run. I don't think you need an 'optimised' party, however. I played the adventure with a convention 'pick-up' group and we did absolutely fine (Cavalier, Oracle, Wizard, Sorcerer, Paladin and [pre-gen] Rogue). What tier and what APL?
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Barb/Alch 7
Barb 7 or Bard 8
Wizard 8
Fighter 10
Barb/Fight 10
A guarantee low-tier. However, from your "pick-up" group, you have a bit more options with the set of divine casters. Unfortunately for this group, at the most, it will be 2 people with wands of cure light wounds. Then again, players are supposed to prepare for anything and supply themselves with emergency potions and such.
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Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Sheffield
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Barb/Alch 7
Barb 7 or Bard 8
Wizard 8
Fighter 10
Barb/Fight 10A guarantee low-tier. However, from your "pick-up" group, you have a bit more options with the set of divine casters. Unfortunately for this group, at the most, it will be 2 people with wands of cure light wounds. Then again, players are supposed to prepare for anything and supply themselves with emergency potions and such.
I'd say one of your major issues is the party's potential inability to deal with the runes of power. I think the tier 7-8 route to success is de-buffing Krune until he's manageable. If the Bard is clued up, the party should know the trick to breaking each of the runes ... but they don't necessarily have the tools to do so (we knew how to break the life runes, but hadn't the means to do it, so Krune started the fight with 300+ hit points).
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Ok, so it ended up an interesting setup:
It switched up from 5 players, down to three, and the current head DM of the shop filled in the last slot. This resulted in no limited wish, sickened condition for the first encounter. Kept rolling low and the Barb/Fight dropped it really quickly.
Second encounter with Lashmistress, Lashmistress had Fighter/Barb in a Hold Person, was heading to coup de grace. Bard walks in and says "Give me your stuff" A.K.A. Charitable Impulse. Failed the Will Save. Lashmistress started to give them her buffs for 5 rounds. 5th round, full attack from Barb/Fight.
I was able to sucessfully lock down the Wizard, Bard, and Barb/Fighter when they encountered Krune. I had the maximized summon VI to set up Bralanis just blasting lightning bolts everywhere and two sets of clouds creating a chokepoint. I nearly had a TPK until the Paladin, the head dm's character, walked in and healed the bard. He did not concern me with any other threat, so I disregarded him. Note that this was the first time I had encountered a Paladin as a DM.
"I five-foot step, Smite Evil, Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim."
Well crap.
Confirmed a critical from Manyshot, near max from the other shots. Total Damage: 215. Krune's Current HP: 178/179.
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Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Sheffield
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Ok, so it ended up an interesting setup:
It switched up from 5 players, down to three, and the current head DM of the shop filled in the last slot. This resulted in no limited wish, sickened condition for the first encounter. Kept rolling low and the Barb/Fight dropped it really quickly.
Second encounter with Lashmistress, Lashmistress had Fighter/Barb in a Hold Person, was heading to coup de grace. Bard walks in and says "Give me your stuff" A.K.A. Charitable Impulse. Failed the Will Save. Lashmistress started to give them her buffs for 5 rounds. 5th round, full attack from Barb/Fight.
I was able to sucessfully lock down the Wizard, Bard, and Barb/Fighter when they encountered Krune. I had the maximized summon VI to set up Bralanis just blasting lightning bolts everywhere and two sets of clouds creating a chokepoint. I nearly had a TPK until the Paladin, the head dm's character, walked in and healed the bard. He did not concern me with any other threat, so I disregarded him. Note that this was the first time I had encountered a Paladin as a DM.
"I five-foot step, Smite Evil, Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim."
Well crap.
Confirmed a critical from Manyshot, near max from the other shots. Total Damage: 215. Krune's Current HP: 178/179.
Every Waking Rune story I've heard ends with a Paladin striking the killing blow...
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Every Waking Rune story I've heard ends with a Paladin striking the killing blow...Ok, so it ended up an interesting setup:
It switched up from 5 players, down to three, and the current head DM of the shop filled in the last slot. This resulted in no limited wish, sickened condition for the first encounter. Kept rolling low and the Barb/Fight dropped it really quickly.
Second encounter with Lashmistress, Lashmistress had Fighter/Barb in a Hold Person, was heading to coup de grace. Bard walks in and says "Give me your stuff" A.K.A. Charitable Impulse. Failed the Will Save. Lashmistress started to give them her buffs for 5 rounds. 5th round, full attack from Barb/Fight.
I was able to sucessfully lock down the Wizard, Bard, and Barb/Fighter when they encountered Krune. I had the maximized summon VI to set up Bralanis just blasting lightning bolts everywhere and two sets of clouds creating a chokepoint. I nearly had a TPK until the Paladin, the head dm's character, walked in and healed the bard. He did not concern me with any other threat, so I disregarded him. Note that this was the first time I had encountered a Paladin as a DM.
"I five-foot step, Smite Evil, Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim."
Well crap.
Confirmed a critical from Manyshot, near max from the other shots. Total Damage: 215. Krune's Current HP: 178/179.
That's because not all tables report who did what to Krune. Our table ended with the two-weapon combatant, not a paladin, may have been a barbarian, getting multiple hits, along with both a Butterfly's Sting starting crit and a confirmed crit of her own, on Krune. I think she may have only missed the final iterative, but I could be remembering wrong.
Sub-tier 10-11, not hard mode, all 7 runes disabled, Krune prone and disarmed. Everyone able to melee attack him had flanking, too.
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A thought occured to me while at work daydreaming about pathfinder. What happens if the party decides to ally themselves with Krune? The scenario as written has the chance for them to talk to him, and some of them probably will be all runed up, and might come around to his way of thinking. Do you report them as dead or something? I know it's unlikley, but I do like to be prepared.