Paladins Using Wand of CLW


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

So now paladins under level 4 can use wands of CLW? Where can I find this change to this on going "Yes they can." - "No they can't." info. I've looked and looked for it but can't seem to find it.

Thanks in advance


From the SRD:

Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

This is an unambiguous, definite, concrete 'yes'.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


Its in the description of Spell Trigger tiems.

Quote:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Both wands and staves are spell trigger items.

Liberty's Edge

Wow, 3 answers separated by 41 seconds, each with the relevant quote. Now that is what I call service. :)

Silver Crusade

PRD wrote:


Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Yep! :)

Silver Crusade

Yah, I've read that, but it was deemed that a paladin (or ranger) didn't actually have a spell list until fourth level and therefore could not use a wand of CLW as they had ZERO spell lists.

Was just wondering where the debate from the the powers on high was located.


AhRae wrote:

Yah, I've read that, but it was deemed that a paladin (or ranger) didn't actually have a spell list until fourth level and therefore could not use a wand of CLW as they had ZERO spell lists.

Was just wondering where the debate from the the powers on high was located.

Deemed by who? (or is it whom)

As far as I know, there has never been any debate about this. The rule is crystal clear.

Silver Crusade

Well just this last weekend I was informed that my paladin could once again use a wand of CLW after totally utilizing UMD to rebuild him.

The spell list debate is out there somewhere.....but my searching skills are lacking


AhRae wrote:

Well just this last weekend I was informed that my paladin could once again use a wand of CLW after totally utilizing UMD to rebuild him.

The spell list debate is out there somewhere.....but my searching skills are lacking

Well, it's a foolish debate, because the rule is, and has always been, clear. A 1st level Paladin might not have a caster level (which may be the source of the confusion, even though it's completely unrelated), but he has a spell list.

I suspect some of those making the counter-argument are arguing what they want to be true.

Silver Crusade

Yep, I'm ALL for and 100% in agreement with the ability of paladins being able to use wands.... but it was in PFS that this ability was disallowed, and now apparently re-instated.

Grand Lodge

If the Paladin (or Ranger) has taken an archetype that replaces the 'spells' class feature, she would need to use UMD.


AhRae wrote:
Yep, I'm ALL for and 100% in agreement with the ability of paladins being able to use wands.... but it was in PFS that this ability was disallowed, and now apparently re-instated.

I dunno much about PFS, but it sounds like whoever was organizing whatever you were doing screwed up.

Silver Crusade

I've been playing PFS since February and paladins have been able to use wands that entire time

Grand Lodge

It was a change in the rules from 3.5 to PF, I think, but it goes back to first printing of the CRB.

So you might have just run into someone who is still thinking 3.5, and either forgot or never noticed the change.

This is only one of the areas where the rule changes can trip up the old experts.


As far as I remember, if PF changed anything in that regard, it was just making it explicit.


The mechanics of a spell trigger item have remain unchanged since 3.0. Its been the same for 14 years now. There have been minor wording changes, but nothing that changed the mechanics. 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder all even use the same example - the 3rd level paladin. So if anyone has ever argued "No they can't.", its because they never bothered to read the rules.

The only thing that might change this is the following quote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
You don't have a class feature unless you actually have the class feature. So if you're not high enough level yet to have it, or your archetype swaps out that feature for something else, you do not have that feature and can't use it as a prerequisite.

By that, you wouldn't have a spell list until your class is capable of actually casting the spells. However, this is a case of Specific vs General. The general rule is you don't have a class ability until you are the appropriate level. The specific rule is that for Spell Trigger items, a spellcasting class has a spell list at all class levels, even if you can't cast spells from it yet. What a specific rule says always overrides what a general rule says.


This has always been the rule.


I'm not sure how it's even possible to argue against it, when the relevant rule uses that very situation as an example.

As Jeraa says, this rule was written almost exactly the same in both the 3.0 DMG and 3.5 DMG, with the same example. So it has worked the same way for the entirety of 3.X's existence.

3.0 DMG and 3.5 DMG wrote:
Specifically, anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.)

Silver Crusade

Jeraa wrote:

The mechanics of a spell trigger item have remain unchanged since 3.0. Its been the same for 14 years now. There have been minor wording changes, but nothing that changed the mechanics. 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder all even use the same example - the 3rd level paladin. So if anyone has ever argued "No they can't.", its because they never bothered to read the rules.

The only thing that might change this is the following quote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
You don't have a class feature unless you actually have the class feature. So if you're not high enough level yet to have it, or your archetype swaps out that feature for something else, you do not have that feature and can't use it as a prerequisite.
By that, you wouldn't have a spell list until your class is capable of actually casting the spells. However, this is a case of Specific vs General. The general rule is you don't have a class ability until you are the appropriate level. The specific rule is that for Spell Trigger items, a spellcasting class has a spell list at all class levels, even if you can't cast spells from it yet. What a specific rule says always overrides what a general rule says.

Paladins don't have spells until level 4, but they have a spell list even at level 1. Unless they are an archetype that gives up spells, of course.


AhRae wrote:
Yep, I'm ALL for and 100% in agreement with the ability of paladins being able to use wands.... but it was in PFS that this ability was disallowed, and now apparently re-instated.

Whoever was GMing that PFS session made a mistake. If you like, print out the Spell Trigger rule and bring it with you to the next game to clear it up.

Silver Crusade

It's all good now in any case... I am still developing my paladin to utilize the umd skill and look forward to using MM wands, enlarge person, and other such items to make him a SOLID all around member in any PF group. He can hit hard with his two-handed sword, heal, use wands as needed, and help resolve any situation!

And by the way, thanks for all the quick and supportive advice. I've really come to rely on these boards for just about every aspect of PF/PFS in being a better player and learning the in's and out's of the rules

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