Invisibility and Smoke (Pellets)

[Rerednaw]

I noticed a tidbit in another thread regarding smoke pellets.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Smoke pellets, from the dungeoneers guide. Exposes invisible critters.

...

So I looked it up in the Ultimate Equipment Guide and the PRD.

PRD wrote:

Smoke Pellet: This small clay sphere contains two alchemical substances separated by a thin barrier. When you break the sphere, the substances mingle and fill a 5-foot square with a cloud of foul but harmless yellow smoke. The smoke pellet acts as a smokestick, except the smoke only lasts for 1 round before dispersing. You may throw a smoke pellet as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.

Core rules on Invisibility.

PRD wrote:

Invisibility

The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.

Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.

Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger's favored enemy and from sneak attacks.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.

...table deleted to save space...

weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature's current location. If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow invisible creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy's not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there and tell him that the character has missed, regardless of the result. That way the player doesn't know whether the attack missed because the enemy's not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature's location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light or similar spell cast upon it.

Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Perception checks, scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don't help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don't help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Perception checks can help.

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Invisibility does not thwart divination spells.

Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.

I give up how by RAW does this expose an invisible creature? Trying to figure out how to use this in PFS...thanks!

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Theres a couple statements that can be intrepeted to be the case:

First:

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

That can be taken into account for smoke as well, as the invisible creature would displace the smoke.

Second:

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature's location.

If the invisable character moves, people can see the smoke moving as well, kinda like a ship has a 'wake' or track, though it wouldn't last long and it would be harder to see if the character moves slowly (no RAW on that, just common sense).

Just some thoughts on that.

[MurphysParadox]

Throw the pellet into a square with an invisible creature. The swirling smoke will reveal the form of the invisible creature, allowing you to attack it without the 50% miss chance. If the creature leaves the square, you will no longer be able to see it. You will have to determine the square to target using normal means (very difficult perception check or good old fashioned luck).

[Claxon]

I thought bags of flour were the poor mans method of finding invisible creatures.

Smokesticks are nice because it will deny a rogue the abilty to sneak attack unless they can negate concealment and make it just as difficult for an invisible creature as it is for a non-ivisible creature.

[The black raven]

They mean the smog pellet that negates invisibility for 1d4 rounds

[njharman]

Would think smoke adds concealment rather than take it away.

[VRMH]

Claxon wrote:

I thought bags of flour were the poor mans method of finding invisible creatures.

Flour clings to people, making it a great invisibility-detector. Smoke... well, it gives you a clue, but that's about it.

[MrPineapples]

This sounds like a stretch to me. The smoke gives you concealment to begin with anyway. Water works for invisible creatures because there are ripples that make the light dance and are concentric rings around the feet/legs of whomever steps in it. There is no rings made by smoke pinpointing the invisible person, the smoke is all the same color and light doesn't play off of it any differently.

Sure, if you have a cigarette and blow a puff of smoke and wave you hand through it, you will see the smoke follow your hand. This is not a good comparison though because the scale is entirely off. The smoke pellet is supposed to fill, FILL the 5' square with smoke. If you want to use the cigarette as a comparison, wave a hair through the smoke puff and see if you can track the smoke, within the puff, not outside of the puff, and before it dissipates. The smoke pellet is only for that 5' square, and dissipates in 1 round.

I believe the idea behind the smoke pellet is "Ninja Vanish!" You through the pellet at your feet and gain concealment from the smoke, this allows you to make a stealth check where ever you happen to be, even in daylight. After you through your pellet and make your stealth check, you have until the end of your turn to get into cover to remain hidden.

[Drakkiel]

This has come up before...read black raven's response above

[Lamontius]

The black raven wrote:

They mean the smog pellet that negates invisibility for 1d4 rounds

THIS.

This is what they are talking about.

Smoke Pellet, Smog: From the Dungeoneer's Handbook.

[Jiggy]

Lamontius wrote:

The black raven wrote:

They mean the smog pellet that negates invisibility for 1d4 rounds

THIS.

This is what they are talking about.

Smoke Pellet, Smog: From the Dungeoneer's Handbook.

+1, because I know most of you forumites require repetition. ;)

[MrPineapples]

Doh! Thanks for clearing that up..... again. Imma dummy.