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Doh! Thanks for clearing that up..... again. Imma dummy.


I believe this thread here will settle this argument.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pt9j&page=2?Stealth-Errata#64

This is a thread in which a dev says the intent of stealth and also gives a nice explanation of how it should work in regards to sneak attacks.

In a nutshell, the smoke pellet would give your rogue a chance to make a stealth check. Once he makes his stealth check, he has until the end of the round to make it to more cover, or make a sneak attack. Once he moves out from the smoke, the fighter get 1 opposed perception check. If he fails it, then the rogue maintains his stealth until the end of his current turn unless he finds cover or makes a sneak attack.


This sounds like a stretch to me. The smoke gives you concealment to begin with anyway. Water works for invisible creatures because there are ripples that make the light dance and are concentric rings around the feet/legs of whomever steps in it. There is no rings made by smoke pinpointing the invisible person, the smoke is all the same color and light doesn't play off of it any differently.

Sure, if you have a cigarette and blow a puff of smoke and wave you hand through it, you will see the smoke follow your hand. This is not a good comparison though because the scale is entirely off. The smoke pellet is supposed to fill, FILL the 5' square with smoke. If you want to use the cigarette as a comparison, wave a hair through the smoke puff and see if you can track the smoke, within the puff, not outside of the puff, and before it dissipates. The smoke pellet is only for that 5' square, and dissipates in 1 round.

I believe the idea behind the smoke pellet is "Ninja Vanish!" You through the pellet at your feet and gain concealment from the smoke, this allows you to make a stealth check where ever you happen to be, even in daylight. After you through your pellet and make your stealth check, you have until the end of your turn to get into cover to remain hidden.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Pinky's Brain wrote:
Except of course if you rolled high and you're higher level and/or optimized for stealth a 20 won't be enough, no amount of BS will cover it ... it's temporary invisibility.

If you're THAT good that's the sort of thing you're SUPPOSED to be able to pull off because its a game of heroic fantasy, not a heist simulator.

Couldn't have said it better myself.


Why not? You've taken measures to ensure the target hasn't seen the dagger, he doesn't know it's in your hand. It's still concealed from him. Can you find anywhere that says a concealed weapon has to be "sheathed"? What if I have a dagger in my hand that's just covered with a fold of my robe? Or with a long sleeve? It's concealed from view, yet still ready to use.


Posted this in another thread already, just want to get maximum exposure.

All you sneaky backstabbers go get a rag. You're about to drool all over this post.

Sleight of Hand wrote:
Your training allows you to pick pockets, draw hidden weapons, and take a variety of actions without being noticed.

Also,

Sleight of Hand wrote:
Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

However,

Sleight of Hand wrote:
When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer's Perception check. The observer's success doesn't prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

So from this we get that you can have a weapon concealed on your person before you approach a target, say in your boot for example.

Then approach the target, say casually walking up to the towns lone gate guard.

Then make a slight of hand check and assuming you beat the targets (in this case, the guard) perception check, draw the weapon out and in your hand completely undetected and avoid a surprise round initiation at this point. To continue the the example, once you get near the guard you check your boot to see if that smell is something you stepped in (slip out the dagger or what ever here). Ok, so the guard didn't see the dagger come out and now you are standing there with a dagger in hand while he watches others come and go, or nods back off to sleep or what ever he was doing.

Then you can Initiate the surprise round by slamming the dagger into his temple which I can tell you, would surprise me. At this point, your Underhanded talent kicks off and your guards head becomes perforated and depending if you're high enough level or in a James Bond film perhaps he will tumble down the cliff and explode.

Tadah! Skills, who'd of thunk it?


All you sneaky backstabbers go get a rag. You're about to drool all over this post.

Sleight of Hand wrote:
Your training allows you to pick pockets, draw hidden weapons, and take a variety of actions without being noticed.

Also,

Sleight of Hand wrote:
Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

However,

Sleight of Hand wrote:
When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer's Perception check. The observer's success doesn't prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

So from this we get that you can have a weapon concealed on your person before you approach a target, say in your boot for example.

Then approach the target, say casually walking up to the towns lone gate guard.

Then make a slight of hand check and assuming you beat the targets (in this case, the guard) perception check, draw the weapon out and in your hand completely undetected and avoid a surprise round initiation at this point. To continue the the example, once you get near the guard you check your boot to see if that smell is something you stepped in (slip out the dagger or what ever here). Ok, so the guard didn't see the dagger come out and now you are standing there with a dagger in hand while he watches others come and go, or nods back off to sleep or what ever he was doing.

Then you can Initiate the surprise round by slamming the dagger into his temple which I can tell you, would surprise me. At this point, your Underhanded talent kicks off and your guards head becomes perforated and depending if you're high enough level or in a James Bond film perhaps he will tumble down the cliff and explode.

Tadah! Skills, who'd of thunk it?


It was mentioned earlier, but I don't think anyone noticed or replied. A Falcata in the hands of a Kensai is a devastating weapon. I think it deserves a little more love than it has had so far in this thread.


None of that will work because in order to use the ring, you have to have the appropriate mystery for the revelation in the ring. In order to get "cloak of darkness" you have to have to "Dark Tapestry" mystery. If you have the "Dark Tapestry" mystery then you can only use the "ring of revelations" with Dark Tapestry revelations.

"Sidestep Secret" comes from the "Lore" mystery. Lore doesn't offer any armor type revelations.


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Ok, so I have a fighter sword and board build in mind that I am going to play at my next session.

I am asking for any ideas to improve the concept, and also for validation that it ultimately works as I envision.

If you think it's cool and your GM gives it the go ahead you will need to be human, and have the following minimum stats.
STR:13, DEX:15, INT:13

So, Feat progression first.

1. power attack, shield focus, weapon focus (I used scimitar)
2. combat reflexes
3. combat expertise
4. 2 weapon fighting
5. improved shield bash
6. Improved Trip
7. Imp Bull rush
8. Improved critical
9. Tripping strike
10. Greater trip
11. Shield slam
12. Shield master
13. Bashing finish
14. Greater bull rush
15. Critical focus
16. Bleeding critical
17. Weapon specialization (Scimitar)
18. Greater shield focus
19. Greater weapon focus
20. Greater Weapon specialization

The build really comes together at level 13.

So here's how I envision the main idea of this build working at level 13.

On a Crit (improved crit, tripping strike, bashing finish) you get the trip from tripping strike, if the trip works, the target provokes an attack of opportunity which you take (that's the part that I think some people may have trouble with) and then you get the shield bash which if successful gives you a bullrush from shield slam.

So you crit, trip, AoO, Shield bash, bullrush all at once. If you rolled well, then at the end of this attack the target is laying on the ground several feet away in a lot of pain.

I understand that the bullrush uses the attack roll and bonuses from the shield bash because that is how shield slam is written. I don't see verbage that says that any of these attacks contradict one another.

Ok Internet land, what's wrong / right with this build?


So have you ever heard anything else about this?


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Hey Agent, Can't believe I found this post! Ha ha! Hello everyone else, I was the one he was talking about when he mentioned the player doing it differently than everyone else. I had made a Kensai that used a falcata and he really cleaned house with it. 1 in 5 hits was a crit and I could spend 2 points of my arcane pool to increase the multiplier from X3 to X4. Falcatas do 1D8 19-20 X3 (I had improved crit). Just slap on bulls str and have yourself a good time!


Forgive me if this has been brought up earlier, but it seems to me that in the guide you are suggesting that adding a metamagic feat to a spell increases the spells level in regards to the DC to save against it?

Whether or not this is what you intended to come across, this is the impression that I got from reading things like-

"Bouncing Spell (***): A +1 boost to the spell level is a good way to ensure that your spell is going to hit
somebody."

I would just like to point out that metamagic spells do not affect the save DCs and in no way raise the level of the spells to which they are applied. They simply force you to use a higher level spell slot in order to cast the spell.-

"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even
though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.
Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated
otherwise in the feat description." -from the CRB

Just wanted to end by saying that I think your work on this guide is awesome. I would love to see a guide for every class from you but I understand that these things take loads of time play testing and research.


Forgive me if someone has already mentioned this, but I didn't see it.
The Alchemist has the potential to be the most powerful buffer in the whole game. If you take the infuse extract discovery, you can hand out any of your extracts to party members. Any of them, even the ones that target only you. You can hand out the buffs at the beginning of the day or at the entrance to the dungeon and not even have to worry about buffing for the rest of the day. This leaves you free to pursue the bomber or throwe aspect and solley focus on the martial aspect of the character. It' like having two characters in one. You also have the advantage of being able to hold off on brewing your extracts untill you need them. It takes only 1 minuet per extract to brew. So make a few to get you though the day and hold a few back for those special situations where you will need a critical spell and you will be the hero of the party.