How does a cleric fight, cast spells and fight side by side with his pet in the same round?So the cleric isn't able to do that, yet he is Codzilla. Go figure. Then there's no problem with Summoner doing the same I guess.The cleric is perfectly capable of doing that actually.That isn't what I said, but I did give an example upthread of a cleric who cast a spell, full attacked with full BAB+(plus his buffs!), attacked side by side with a solar he summoned and also buffed, and all the while had an undead horde making toys.
The summoner doesn't get to full attack at full BAB with his pet by his side while casting a spell and controlling a horde. He has to pick between his body suit, his eidolon, and his summons. He never gets access to full BAB, but I'm sure synth can create a quasi-full BAB.
I'm not sure we are talking about the same class, really.
HAve you read the Twin Eidolon ability from summoner's class? Yes, he can fight side by side his pet, and cast spells in tge same turn. The master summoner can do that while having a Solar with him as well.
what does BASE attack bonus matter? Isn't it total attack bonus/number of attacks that is relevant? I mean isn't that extremely arbitrary "So, my new class gets 3/4 BAB +50 on all attacks and 15 extra attacks per round, but since it isn't full BAB it isn't attacking like the CoDzilla!"
And the druid, AFAIK, never got BAB?
Also, you seem to switch between comparing it to the druidzilla and the clericzilla, whichever fits you best at the moment.
A synthesist can cast a spell (for example Maze), full attack with attack bonus and number of attacks matchingo or exceeding most martials, side by side with a solar it called with a home-made scroll and also buffed, and anyone with a decent charisma can have an undead horde making toys so that's kind of a moot point.
That isn't what I said, but I did give an example upthread of a cleric who cast a spell, full attacked with full BAB+(plus his buffs!), attacked side by side with a solar he summoned and also buffed, and all the while had an undead horde making toys.
The summoner doesn't get to full attack at full BAB with his pet by his side while casting a spell and controlling a horde. He has to pick between his body suit, his eidolon, and his summons. He never gets access to full BAB, but I'm sure synth can create a quasi-full BAB.
Clerics don't have a spell that grants full BAB anymore. Summoners are just as proficient at using quicken rods as a cleric (and in some cases more so- 7th level and above spells in 6th level slots means cheaper rods). Summoners can also gate a solar under the exact same conditions as a cleric.
They've got creating undead on lockdown, but they don't have an eidolon or standard action summons. And the creation of undead is limited by the setting (good clerics aren't going to be doing that in Golarion), while nothing summoners do is related to the moral opinions of the GM or writers.
Ok he can't cast and fight in the same round until he is level 10 (assuming standard wealth per level) at which point he can cast up to 3rd level spells 3 times a day for half of his expected wealth.
At 13th level he can do so with all of his spells 3 times a day and if he really wanted to by level 20 he could have 3 or 4 metamagic rods without breaking the bank which would mean he could basically cast and fight all day long. It's a high level trick but a pretty potent one.
CoDzilla requires 10 levels of a PrC. How is this an issue for that build?
CoDzilla requires 10 levels of a PrC.
Where did you get that idea from? Clericzilla can start using divine metamagic by level 5, and Druidzilla starts wild shaping at 4.
A synthesist can cast a spell (for example Maze), full attack with attack bonus and number of attacks matchingo or exceeding most martials, side by side with a solar it called with a home-made scroll and also buffed, and anyone with a decent charisma can have an undead horde making toys so that's kind of a moot point.
at high levels any summoner can do that, not only synth. At 20, the summoner can quicken-maze a target, pounce a second target, have his eidolon pounce a third, and use his home-made scroll-gated solar in a fourth. (Actually the solar can take two at a time with dancing sword and bow)
at high levels any summoner can do that, not only synth. At 20, the summoner can quicken-maze a target, pounce a second target, have his eidolon pounce a third, and use his home-made scroll-gated solar in a fourth. (Actually the solar can take two at a time with dancing sword and bow)
Only at 20th, with magic items. Can't forget that part!
at high levels any summoner can do that, not only synth. At 20, the summoner can quicken-maze a target, pounce a second target, have his eidolon pounce a third, and use his home-made scroll-gated solar in a fourth. (Actually the solar can take two at a time with dancing sword and bow)Only at 20th, with magic items. Can't forget that part!
Sure. many of the "can do anything in ten different ways" that other tier 1 have also come very late in the game. I doubt the cleric you saw fighting alongside a buffed solar was level ten, was him?
The following represents only my opinion after reading 300-350 of the posts here (They get repetative so I doubt I missed any key point)
I think Summ. are PF's CoDZilla (hereafter CZ).
BUT, and this is big, ghetto booty size but,
So are several classes because You CANNOT (fully) do CZ in PF (yet/hopefully ever)
Because of that "close" is all you can get, and depending on what traits of CZ you're looking at, in the Summ. case combat domination, fast access to top spells, stat dumping, and a few others, several classes still fit the bill.
[IMO, well built wild shape druids can come closest, but even they're miles from 3/3.5 CZ, they lose a lot of spell power, Summ. are only 3rd closest in my book]
Summoners, and I'm including archtypes, are, using the tier system, high tier 2 or maybe low tier 1, and in particular can dominate in any combat out of the box.
If you could have a Synthisist Master Summoner, they'd be CZ. As that isn't allowed, yes they're (very) powerful, most likely the most powerful of the non-core classes (Witch/Oracle could give them a run), but not more so than Clerics, Druids, Wizards.
Sure. many of the "can do anything in ten different ways" that other tier 1 have also come very late in the game. I doubt the cleric you saw fighting alongside a buffed solar was level ten, was him?
Well he wasn't level 20. Never played a game that hit 20. He was 16th I think.
The "Can do anything in ten different ways" comes way before that though. It starts at level one depending on your campaign. I've played in a campaign where the GM didn't give me one scroll. Still had more problem solving abilities than the sorcerer in the party. The druid in the party had a much wider list of abilities than my wizard, he had a problem solving skill for anything by opening a book, though he wasn't the best player.
Summoners can also gate a solar under the exact same conditions as a cleric.
Well, not really, they have pro's and con's. Summoners can do it more often if really needed, but they don't have it on their spell list so they cannot do it while they have their pet/suit up, and they cannot call more than one at a time. However, they can still make scrolls so they can if they need to.
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In an attempt at communication, this is how those insisting summoners are not CoDzilla-qualifiers sound to me. Maybe there's something that is getting lost in translation through the flurry of posts.
"Clearly we can see that unless the summoner can fly around shooting laser beams from his eyes, while leading an army of summoned unicorns, under the effects if full-BAB divine favor, while abusing both divine metamagic with nightsticks and wild shape, with it's gargantuan sized acidic fleshraker animal companion, with twelve prestige classes, all while fighting, summoning, and blasting at the same time during a time stop, then it cannot be CoDzilla. I know, because I'm an expert on things that are Cleric or Druid-zilla as demonstrated by my 20th level build utilizing more than 4 classes, none of which include Cleric or Druid."
^ A summary of what I've drawn from the previous posts.
With flashes of:
"Well even though the summoner gets 8th and 9th level spells before full casters does, the chart clearly says he only goes up to 6th level spells, meaning he is not a full caster who gets 8th and 9th level spells and does not have enough spells, and is more like a bard. Oh, and saving throw DCs, even though 80% of his good spells don't actually allow or need high saving throws to work well, even though at worst it's only 15% easier."
And snippets of:
"How does getting access to spells and metamagic rods at a discount help you? Do you have infinite money!?"
Food for thought; I'm sitting on a summoner build who does strength and a half on each claw attack he does, gets 6 claw attacks plus a bite, can "pounce" with an eidolon out and can still cast all his spells. With an atack bonus that easily rivals if not exceeds fighters of the same level.
He's not a synthesist.
Food for thought; I'm sitting on a summoner build who does strength and a half on each claw attack he does, gets 6 claw attacks plus a bite, can "pounce" with an eidolon out and can still cast all his spells. With an atack bonus that easily rivals if not exceeds fighters of the same level.
He's not a synthesist.
So to get this right you invested 3 feats that do almost nothing to get an advantage that only comes into effect at the 11th level and you want to argue how overpowering that is.
1st Unarmed Strike
3rd Dragon Style
6th Dragon Ferocity
9th Weapon Focus
11th Feral Combat Style (Claws)
9th actually. And not in that order.
"Almost nothing" is also relative. As most of those feats are actually quite good at the levels you can get them. :)
I mean the ability ignore hindering terrain and allies on a charge at level 3 is "almost nothing"?
As to whether or not it's overpowered I leave to the viewer. I merely set out with a goal in mind and accomplished it.
Human. Plus, even flying you can't charge through enemies. You can't go straight up with flight. You can't go "up and over" with flight. Charging is a straight line only.
Might be a magic item. Also meant to say friendlies and not enemies there.
In an attempt at communication, this is how those insisting summoners are not CoDzilla-qualifiers sound to me. Maybe there's something that is getting lost in translation through the flurry of posts.
Lots of text...
Well honestly I think you aren't trying to understand the oposition's arguement then, because its been pointed out quite well why we believe the summoner isn't CODzilla. I think you understand what a Summoner can do. So do I. What we disagree about is whether it adds up to what a 3.5 CODzilla could do.
I dont think ANY class is quite what the 3.5 CODzilla was. That has alot to do with the general drop in power across the board. Also the classic classes where nerfed to the point where they are no longer CODzilla.
Most (including me) even think the Summoner is CLOSE. Just like the Druid is still CLOSE. But for one reason (Capped spellcasting or lack of persistant combat buffs) or another (Nerfed wildshape) they fall short of the 3.5 CODzilla.
I personally like your idea for a NEW definition of CODzilla for PF with less expectations (though I wouldn't call it Summonzilla cause that excludes Druids and Beast-Bound Witches).
Its the difference of
A. It ABSOLUTLY is CODzilla from 3.5 in all its glory!
B. Ehhh they are close but not quite there. They lack A or B. If they could do C.
Its not like anyone is saying the class sucks.
Well CoDzilla existed before Divine Metamagic, Cloistered Clerics, or even any of the Complete books. The core Cleric and Druid can thrash all they come across in the game. They can fight like martials and they can cast powerful spells and they have enough tricks to deal with things like traps and skills.
The fundamental problem with our definitions is that mine is actually based on the actual definition of CoDzilla. Those that acquire their power from being a Cleric or a Druid, as described best on 1d4chan. It's not Divine Metamagic-Zilla, nor is it Greenbound-zilla, nor is it "20th level build that I call CoDzilla but actually doesn't have a single level of either Cleric or Druid in it".
My definition actually begins and ends with Clerics and Druids and why. Your definition doesn't even include Clerics or Druids and completely misses the entire reason it was to begin with.
the whole point of CoDzilla was that it could be built using the player's handbook, monster manual, and dungeon masters guide (the core 3) and still wreck games. because cleric and druid were both so overpowered.
cleric had a better spell list and an easier time getting enhancement bonuses on their primary weapon
druid was a nastier combat monster whom relied more on some combination of a massive strength score, pounce, and/or a mountain of primary natural attacks. the best druid-zillas either became predatory felines, or predatory ursines, of progressively increasing size and nastiness.
in fact, Druids got a huge AC buff from a single level of monk.
in fact, turning was so lousy in 3.5 without divine feats, that most clerics could afford to be a 6 Cha half orc if doing so made them better in combat.
hell, the only skill core CoDzilla required, was Concentration, meaning a 6 Int/Cha half orc made an amazing CoDzilla because it saved you points on strength to afford you more dexterity and constitution.
here is a sample 32 point 3.5 core half orc CoDzilla array a buddy of mine used for a Core Cleric Zilla Build.
Str 16 (18)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 6
Wis 16
Cha 6
remember the longspear, spiked gauntlet, and Full Plate ASAP
Personally I think Eidolons are dumb. Master summoner is the only real summoner worth talking about. The rest give up the use of their SLA to use a bulky monster that may be able to out DPR a fighter AND being better than a fighter is not a great accomplishment.
Then their casting just doesn't match up to real full casters.
Now a summoner+eidolon combo does rofl-stomp all over the magus's hitting-casting effects and may be OP in that sense, but any summoner with an eidolon out or that is take a Master or Synthesis summoner does not compare to any fullcaster much less CoDzilla.
Now if you want to talk about how a Master summoner can use excellent summoning and spell list to do most things a fullcaster can do, and still have plently of melee options, then we can talk about wether or not the all of the summons compensates for the fact that a summoner will not be as buffed and durable as a CoDzilla in 3.5
In an attempt at communication, this is how those insisting summoners are not CoDzilla-qualifiers sound to me. Maybe there's something that is getting lost in translation through the flurry of posts.
Lots of text...
Well honestly I think you aren't trying to understand the oposition's arguement then, because its been pointed out quite well why we believe the summoner isn't CODzilla. I think you understand what a Summoner can do. So do I. What we disagree about is whether it adds up to what a 3.5 CODzilla could do.
I dont think ANY class is quite what the 3.5 CODzilla was. That has alot to do with the general drop in power across the board. Also the classic classes where nerfed to the point where they are no longer CODzilla.
Most (including me) even think the Summoner is CLOSE. Just like the Druid is still CLOSE. But for one reason (Capped spellcasting or lack of persistant combat buffs) or another (Nerfed wildshape) they fall short of the 3.5 CODzilla.
I personally like your idea for a NEW definition of CODzilla for PF with less expectations (though I wouldn't call it Summonzilla cause that excludes Druids and Beast-Bound Witches).
Its the difference of
A. It ABSOLUTLY is CODzilla from 3.5 in all its glory!
B. Ehhh they are close but not quite there. They lack A or B. If they could do C.Its not like anyone is saying the class sucks.
How about MundaneClassesSuckItzilla or MCSIzilla for short?
The requirements are being able to outfight mundane classes while still having access to full casting or abbreviated full casting like the summoner.
why the hell are we using the fighter and rogue as measuring sticks.
the fighter is a combatant whom lacks Real Class Features and Lacks Skill Points. it is only good at one thing, dealing hit point damage with it's signature weapon. like a 3.5 kensai. only without the Soul Infusion aspect. it sucks at all other aspects of combat that utilize neither an attack roll or a damage roll, nor utilize their signature weapon
the cavalier is just a guy whom rides on horseback and charges with a lance. that is the only real thing the cavalier has. hell, they can't even get flying mounts without DM fiat. meaning no FE pegasus knights, wyvern lords, griffon riders, or any of that.
the rogue is just a lousy combatant no matter what you do. it is a worse skill monkey than the bard or ranger, a worse combatant than either, and gets neither spells nor a pet. plus the rogue is dependant on an ally's help to get any damage done. meaning the ally is responsible for half the sneak attack damage the rogue deals. it's main features, are handed out on a diamond platter to the ranger and the bard for practically next to nothing
the monk is a class that tries to pass itself off as a mobile unarmed master, thing is, it's main niche, unarmed combat, is inferior to armed combat in every way, and other classes do the unarmed niche much better due to being able to hit more. monk has a temple sword? ranger got a great sword.
the samurai is just a more selfish cavalier, their big weakness, is they are forever bound to weapons that aren't guaranteed to be found
ninja is just a rogue who gives up trapfinding and evasion for a Ki Pool. problem is, like a monk, you literally bleed ki points and you don't have enough. even monk vows don't provide a sufficient volume. and they are dependant on a stat a rogue can normally dump without penalty. ninja still deals crap damage. and now, traps kill them easier and so many things negate vanishing trick
if you want to be a nonmagical combatant and be viable, you have 3 options
barbarian, pounce, awesome saves, near fighteresque damage with any weapon, revives the old shock trooper build, revives Robilar's gambit, and revives exclusive domain to many old fighter feats that didn't make it to PF
paladin, lawful good restriction, DM can strip your powers with fiat, but poisons are useless and overpriced, the intent of an action matters more than the action itself, and though you cannot lie, you can still leave out details, feint, and engage in other deceptive activities. and honor doesn't restrict archery. awesome saves, self healing, access to heavy armor, and mercies
ranger, ranger gets a mountain of skills, and 60% of a fighter's free feats, without prerequisites. that is better than 11 feats over 20 levels, 4 of which have to be blown specializing in one weapon to be good at being a fighter. plus a fighter requires an int and wis investment to have decent skills, skills the ranger can afford with less int, and a wis investment that grants them spells.
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Dude CoDzilla was a cleric or druid that was both a fullcaster and someone who could hit things harder than a fighter or other melee focused classes.
CoDzilla in 3.5 was the reason no one should play a fighter. "Oh hey our party needs heals and a beef-stick." "I'll just play CoDzilla then because WoTc sneaked an NPC class into the PH."
Every 3.5 game I have ever played did not need a fighter or any other class that wasn't a fullcaster. The only non-caster who could ever hope to be useful was a rogue and that was only because the Wizard felt like doing something other than your job.
Dude CoDzilla was a cleric or druid that was both a fullcaster and someone who could hit things harder than a fighter or other melee focused classes.
CoDzilla in 3.5 was the reason no one should play a fighter. "Oh hey our party needs heals and a beef-stick." "I'll just play CoDzilla then because WoTc sneaked an NPC class into the PH."
Every 3.5 game I have ever played did not need a fighter or any other class that wasn't a fullcaster. The only non-caster who could ever hope to be useful was a rogue and that was only because the Wizard felt like doing something other than your job.
3.5; rogues actually had a lot of niche protection. they were just there for when the wizard didn't feel like wasting a spell on knock or casting dispel magic or summon monster on a trap
that niche protection collapsed in pathfinder
thing is
Unseen Seer was a better rogue than the darn rogue. especially humans with able learner.
Did you just spend a whole post agreeing with me?
Did you just spend a whole post agreeing with me?
Yep.
Rogue sucked in 3.5, but they had the niche protection of being the best trapfinders because they were the only class that got search and disable device as class skills, the trapfinding class feature, and access to a handful of near exclusive feats pertaining to traps.
Okay, every so often I fail my linguistics check... what the hell is CoDzilla? Within context, I have to assume "overpowered", but what does it actually mean?
Cleric Or Druid Zilla.
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CoDzilla is a term from the 3.5 Character Optimization boards by Radical Taoist! (actually responded when I asked for help)
It has since become an internet meme and standard descriptive term. Basically, it points out that you don't need splatbooks and PrC's and things to optimize...the core rules for the cleric and druid and the spells and abilities get do it all for you.
Bah, it's own wikipedia entry doesn't have the source. How unprofessional, especially for us gamers!
------------------------------
By Radical Taoist: Context is: A gamer is complaining about a DM who won't allow Psionics in 3.5E, because he believes it is unbalanced.
:
Haunted, the good answers (DMing your own game, ditching this fool for some sensible DMs in college) have been given. You wish to win an argument with a DM, however (try actually facing 3 groups of 4 goblins each in a day at level 1, with time to cast a CLW or two in between, and see if he still thinks you can't have more than 1 encounter a day at low levels) and for that you have chosen the correct tactic.
It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics (or Warlocks, or Fochlucan Lyrists, or anything balanced that's come out of splatbooks that aren't munchfests like Complete Divine) isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions.
==Aelryinth
CoDzilla is a term from the 3.5 Character Optimization boards by Radical Taoist! (actually responded when I asked for help)
It has since become an internet meme and standard descriptive term. Basically, it points out that you don't need splatbooks and PrC's and things to optimize...the core rules for the cleric and druid and the spells and abilities get do it all for you.
Bah, it's own wikipedia entry doesn't have the source. How unprofessional, especially for us gamers!
------------------------------
By Radical Taoist: Context is: A gamer is complaining about a DM who won't allow Psionics in 3.5E, because he believes it is unbalanced.
:
Haunted, the good answers (DMing your own game, ditching this fool for some sensible DMs in college) have been given. You wish to win an argument with a DM, however (try actually facing 3 groups of 4 goblins each in a day at level 1, with time to cast a CLW or two in between, and see if he still thinks you can't have more than 1 encounter a day at low levels) and for that you have chosen the correct tactic.
It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics (or Warlocks, or Fochlucan Lyrists, or anything balanced that's come out of splatbooks that aren't munchfests like Complete Divine) isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions.
==Aelryinth
*slow clap* that sir was pure awesome.
How are you getting 5 feats for you eidolon for the 9th level where they only have 4. As for ignoring terrain on a charge that becomes almost irrelevant 2 levels later with flight.
Who said anything about the eidolon? I was saying the summoner.
Also Buri has the right of it. Being able to charge through allies is a boon when you're using summons or have your eidolon out.
Also he's not human Humans don't get claw attacks at first level.
But absolutely do feel free to keep guessing. :)
I would have thought my comment about the ability working ridiculously late in the game would apply doubly so to a 20 level capstone everyones broken at 20 (well except fighters, rogues and monks)How are you getting 5 feats for you eidolon for the 9th level where they only have 4. As for ignoring terrain on a charge that becomes almost irrelevant 2 levels later with flight.Who said anything about the eidolon? I was saying the summoner.
Also Buri has the right of it. Being able to charge through allies is a boon when you're using summons or have your eidolon out.
Also he's not human Humans don't get claw attacks at first level.
But absolutely do feel free to keep guessing. :)
Still wrong. I'm abusing different abilities of the summoner.
Though I do admit by a strict interpretation of the RAW you can't add claw attacks to your feet since you don't have the limbs evolution at 10. So having 4 claw attacks would be impossible. However I like to think that in these instances common sense might prevail and some allowances might be made to acknowledge that you do infact have these things called "legs" which you can apply claws to. But some people are just odd.
But this is an exercise on how little people really know the class. People latch on to a couple of abilities and assume that that's it. No one thinks that I can turn those buffs on myself or split them wiht my eidolon with the right feat. No one considers that at 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, and light armor I start off pretty much on par to a bard or magus.
I've yet to see someone abuse MAker's Call or Transposition in any meaningful way. No one seems to understand that Life Link and Life Bond make your HP pools essentially bond together, that Resilient Eidolon is just an amazing feat, your eidolon can be a better rogue than the class, and that at the end of the day you still can cast evolution surge to make your eidolon an instant expert on any subject he has 1 skill rank in.
My problem with the majority of this debate has been too muhc focus on the things that CoDzilla could do and not enough on what the summoner can do. I'll get more into this later. Right now it's time for work.
I would have thought my comment about the ability working ridiculously late in the game would apply doubly so to a 20 level capstone everyones broken at 20 (well except fighters, rogues and monks)How are you getting 5 feats for you eidolon for the 9th level where they only have 4. As for ignoring terrain on a charge that becomes almost irrelevant 2 levels later with flight.Who said anything about the eidolon? I was saying the summoner.
Also Buri has the right of it. Being able to charge through allies is a boon when you're using summons or have your eidolon out.
Also he's not human Humans don't get claw attacks at first level.
But absolutely do feel free to keep guessing. :)
they get the ability to fuse with the pet earlier.
And also can gain evolutions on his own. He could get +10 nat armor, or +8 str, or six tentacles to add to his regular longspear, or whatever he finds fancy
The claws evolution requires you also have the limb evolution so you can't buy it at level 10 with Aspect as that would require 3 evolution points (limbs 2 claws 1).
At 18th level a summoner could get 4 claws attack (or 6 as a tengu or tiefling with the right racials) with greater aspect (limbs 4 points + claws 2 point) but that's 18th level.
He can't get a +8 to strength as Aspect rules out the increased attribute evolution though 6 tentacles works.
And also can gain evolutions on his own. He could get +10 nat armor, or +8 str, or six tentacles to add to his regular longspear, or whatever he finds fancy
most DM I know will allow him to have claws in his own arms, not requiring two extra arms.
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Yes, like I said that's really a case of common sense dictating you shouldn't need to sprout a whole new set of arms or legs just to grow claws. I hoenstly think it's a good question for the FAQ since it seems to me someone with arms and legs have "arms" and "legs" evolutions by default.
Also +8 strength is easy for a level 18 summoner. It's called the Large Evolution.
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While I do think it's sensible to allow the claws evolution on arms that are not from the limbs evolution, it is clearly against the rules and it's fair to exclude it when discussing class balance - especially with a strong class. The houserule may be sensible, and I'd allow it in my games (though we set a common level of optimization so "munchkinism" is pointless in our games), but it's a fair point not to include it in a case like this.
It's also really easy to explain why it _wouldn't_ work, if one doesn't want it to work for balance reasons - the evolutions may only be able to add to what's already there, not remove one's "natural" hands. If one wants a fluff explanation.
While I do think it's sensible to allow the claws evolution on arms that are not from the limbs evolution, it is clearly against the rules and it's fair to exclude it when discussing class balance - especially with a strong class. The houserule may be sensible, and I'd allow it in my games (though we set a common level of optimization so "munchkinism" is pointless in our games), but it's a fair point not to include it in a case like this.
It's also really easy to explain why it _wouldn't_ work, if one doesn't want it to work for balance reasons - the evolutions may only be able to add to what's already there, not remove one's "natural" hands. If one wants a fluff explanation.
Fair enough. But it changes little really even from that standpoint since we can get two tentacles for less damage. Less powerful than the other way but it's a way nonetheless to get the attacks we desire.
While I do think it's sensible to allow the claws evolution on arms that are not from the limbs evolution, it is clearly against the rules and it's fair to exclude it when discussing class balance - especially with a strong class. The houserule may be sensible, and I'd allow it in my games (though we set a common level of optimization so "munchkinism" is pointless in our games), but it's a fair point not to include it in a case like this.
It's also really easy to explain why it _wouldn't_ work, if one doesn't want it to work for balance reasons - the evolutions may only be able to add to what's already there, not remove one's "natural" hands. If one wants a fluff explanation.
Not to mention the fact its silly to give claws to your back legs for anything other than RAKE. I cant think of any animal with 4 legs that actually uses its back legs to attack unless it has a grip on the object with its front claws.
Otherwise I get this odd image of some 4 legged beast bouncing around from leg to leg so all 4 can claw. Its just dumb sounding.
Not to mention the fact its silly to give claws to your back legs for anything other than RAKE. I cant think of any animal with 4 legs that actually uses its back legs to attack unless it has a grip on the object with its front claws.
Otherwise I get this odd image of some 4 legged beast bouncing around from leg to leg so all 4 can claw. Its just dumb sounding.
Which is why you can apply claws to your legs once.
But anyway, that's just been one way I've built some rather effective melee summoners. Other ways include using Eldritch Heritage, Dimensional Dervish, Teamwork Feats (tricky to pull off since the eidolon and you don't earn feats at the same time but doable), Mounted Combat, straight up smacking fools with big weapons.
I've yet to figure out how to make archery effective. Too many feats and scores to deal with. I figured out two weapon fighting (natural attacks ahoy!) but I haven't much figured out a good summoner equivalent for shootin stuff.
Synthesists are great but they all too often feel like a completely different class with half the skills, feats, and tricks available to the nonarchetyped deal.
In any case I do encourage people to FAQ that post above since certain bits of Aspect and what not should be clarified.
Not to mention the fact its silly to give claws to your back legs for anything other than RAKE. I cant think of any animal with 4 legs that actually uses its back legs to attack unless it has a grip on the object with its front claws.Otherwise I get this odd image of some 4 legged beast bouncing around from leg to leg so all 4 can claw. Its just dumb sounding.
Actually, cats do that a lot, partly in "bouncing" or jumping on the target with all claws and partly by lying on their back in a defensive position with all claws in the air. Remember too that not all attacks has to come at the exact same moment - it's over the time of 6 seconds.