If you could spoiler this type of thing or generic it up in the future, that'd be appreciated. I'm playing a RotRL campaign and we haven't gotten there yet.
Regardless, I don't know that anything you did was "wrong", but I can certainly understand why your players felt cheated. It's sort of like when you're playing against the CPU on a high difficulty and no matter what you do, your opponent has the perfect escape so nothing quite works. It's just frustrating. They get off a spell/maneuver/whatever that shifts (what I'm assuming is) a difficult battle in their favor, and you essentially circumvent that by quasi-metagaming and avoiding their successful tactic through an initiative quirk.
I know it wasn't your intent, but they probably feel like you tricked them. You didn't make the save and then have to wait for the next round to have another creature cast the spell and free you, which would at least make the players feel like the tactic was worth the effort and it just didn't pan out. The tactic worked, but then didn't because you didn't want it to (not saying that was your intent, but it's probably how it feels from their perspective).
I'm not saying the rage quit was necessarily an appropriate response, but I do think I'd be rather irritated if something like that happened to me.
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I would say that since you are merely held/paralyzed, unable to move, but still able to think, i.e. not unconscious, that it would make sense for you to be able to delay until you were able to take actions. Not just by the rules, but because it makes sense.
If you could spoiler this type of thing or generic it up in the future, that'd be appreciated. I'm playing a RotRL campaign and we haven't gotten there yet.
Regardless, I don't know that anything you did was "wrong", but I can certainly understand why your players felt cheated. It's sort of like when you're playing against the CPU on a high difficulty and no matter what you do, your opponent has the perfect escape so nothing quite works. It's just frustrating. They get off a spell/maneuver/whatever that shifts (what I'm assuming is) a difficult battle in their favor, and you essentially circumvent that by quasi-metagaming and avoiding their successful tactic through an initiative quirk.
I know it wasn't your intent, but they probably feel like you tricked them. You didn't make the save and then have to wait for the next round to have another creature cast the spell and free you, which would at least make the players feel like the tactic was worth the effort and it just didn't pan out. The tactic worked, but then didn't because you didn't want it to (not saying that was your intent, but it's probably how it feels from their perspective).
I'm not saying the rage quit was necessarily an appropriate response, but I do think I'd be rather irritated if something like that happened to me.
As long as the DM plays fair, making the same mechanical options available to players, then there's no problem. If the DM automatically skips the turn of players who are held, without giving them an opportunity to delay, but then on a held NPC's turn, thinks up a way for it to get its turn, then that would bother me as a player.
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I think that, from a RaW perspective, there wasn't anything wrong with your call. Hold Person doesn't affect the target's mind and only prevents him/her for doing physical actions, so he/she can delay since it is considered a "No Action".
Nonetheless, I think that was a wrong move anyways. Unless they share some kind of mental link (Thelepathic Link, thelepathy or other weird ability) or have been prepping for the fight/know each other for a waaay long time (which I think not), there was no way the paralyzed duplicate could know the duplicate bard's spell selection.
As long as the DM plays fair, making the same mechanical options available to players, then there's no problem. If the DM automatically skips the turn of players who are held, without giving them an opportunity to delay, but then on a held NPC's turn, thinks up a way for it to get its turn, then that would bother me as a player.
That's where the metagame issue comes in, though. Held creature already knows that his compatriot acts on the next move, because they're being played by the same person. Sure there's table talk that occurs with players, and no rules were broken here, but it would still feel like the DM is pushing an "I win" button. It feels like you're circumventing the impact of the spell, as opposed to simply overcoming it like you ordinarily would.
When you get a Hold Person spell to land, it feels like an accomplishment (even if a silly little minor one). If you cast the spell and the save is made, it's a bummer, but at least you feel like you got a fair shake. If you cast a spell, the save is failed, but there's no impact because of initiative shenanigans, it feels wrong.
I fully recognize that the exact same scenario can go down and if the initiative orders were already reversed, it'd be a non-issue and the result would have been the same. But this, to me, would feel like an underhanded way to go about getting to the same result. Did the caster succeed on identifying the spell when it was cast? Did the caster bother to identify the spell when it was cast? Are we handwaving that issue now because the DM already knows what spell was cast, that it was successful, and wants to dispell it? How would the caster even know that the held character was actually held if the held character is delaying his/her action until after the caster dispells a spell s/he might not even know landed effectively? That's why it feels more like metagame thwarting than legitimate counter-tactics to me.
Again, I certainly wouldn't rage quit (unless this was a last straw type scenario), but I can certainly understand the frustration.
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I think I remember there being a discussion on whether an unconscious PC could delay his or her action. Don't remember the resolution to that (or even if there was one). For the record, I don't think I would allow it. As an analogy, there is a FAQ answer which says a person cannot delay to put off the saving throw against a poison.
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Huh. To me your tactic seems reasonably clever and not really that overpowered, as it relies on an ally to remove the hold person effect. So instead of costing the target one turn to shake off the hold, they cost the enemy spellcaster a turn to dispel it. Seems like an okay trade to me. If the dispel check had failed, the target would have reduced his initiative for nothing.
Now, the question of how well the enemies coordinate is a legit one from an IG perspective.
I don't think I would let an unconcious character choose to delay, however. It may be a non-action but it at least requires mental volition. Otherwise, none of my characters would ever bleed out in your game as they would keep delaying indefinitely. If you are worried about characters dropping and having no chance to be healed before thye bleed out, you could always just place all bleeding at the top/bottom of the round instead of on their turn.
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I think that within the RaW you are: although a paralyzed character can take no actions, Delay is technically not an action.
By RAW you were wrong. You can't delay while affected by hold person any more than you can take a five foot step, or draw an arrow (both of which are also not an action).
"Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."
"Not an Action" is an action in combat (listed on the Actions in Combat table) that isn't a standard, move, full-round, free, or immediate action. You are acting, it's just that what you are doing is so minor that it falls outside the normal limited scope of things you can do in a round.
Hold Person doesn't just paralyze you (which is a condition that normally allows you to take "purely mental actions") but it also specifically prevents you from taking ANY actions. So not only are you frozen in place, but you can't even concentrate on maintaining an active spell. You are totally and utterly shut down until you succeed on your will save.
Also, as a general rule, I agree with what Reshar said before me. Unless the characters share some sort of mental link or something, then there's really no way that one character will know what another character has planned then there's really no way for a non-held but paralyzed character to know that there's even a chance of the effect being dispelled later in the turn.
So a player got off a hold person on a big bad, then the big bag just delayed until his henchman could dispel the effect, allowing him get his turn on the new initiative after the effect was dispelled?
Seems legit to me. It is by no means guaranteed to succeed in any case.
I don't see the problem.
Hold Person is just a 2nd level spell (for most classes). It shouldn't be a "save or die" effect. In many cases, there won't be an enemy spellcaster with Dispel Magic prepared, so the Hold Person will last until the victim saves. In some cases there might be an enemy caster with Dispel Magic prepared but sometimes he will fail his caster level check and fail to dispel the Hold Person.
The rest of the time, probably fairly rare, the enemy spellcaster successfully dispels the Hold Person. If their initiatives are perfect then the only cost is that the enemy caster wastes his round casting Dispel Magic instead of something more useful - which means that the PCs had someone spend a round casting Hold Person and the enemies had someone spend a round casting Dispel Magic - that's a fair trade. Not best case, but it's a fair trade, one round for one round.
In all other cases, it works even better than a mere fair trade.
In the OP's case, it got a little more than a fair trade because it also forced the victim of the Hold Person to delay his initiative. That might have had no real effect since he only had to delay a little bit, but if the initiatives were less perfect, the victim might have had to delay a long time, possibly even allowing the PCs to get some easy attacks against him first.
So, this time, bad luck: the enemy initiative order was almost perfect for them AND the enemy spellcaster had Dispel Magic prepared AND he didn't fail the caster level check. Result? Both sides had someone spend a round for no benefit, AN EVEN TRADE.
That hardly seems worthy of ragequitting.
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As Deadmoon pointed out the paralyzed effect states you can still take mental actions. In fact if you had a Still/Silent spell memorized along with the Eschew Materials feats you should be able to cast it even while held.
The paralyzed condition does normally allow you to still take mental actions, but the hold person spell doesn't just paralyze you. It also prevents you from taking any actions (except the will save it specifically allows you, which effectively eats up your full round action even if you succeed).
Further 'Delay' is defined as 'No Action' while there exists a concept called 'Free Action'. If Delay was a Free Action I would have ruled that the effected creature could not delay.
"Delay" is defined as "No Action" ... but further down the page "No Action" is defined as an action. It just doesn't follows the specific (x number of actions in your round) rules of the other action categories.
The big difference is that a free action is still attached to you taking other actions:
"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally"
So it's something you do on your turn, or during an attack of opportunity, or what have you. "No action" actions are separate and can be done whenever they can be done (depending on the action).
OP, I believe you were incorrect in your actions. However, one would hope that would not cause the meltdown your group seemed to have suffered.
Hold Person:
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.
Special Initiative Actions
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Delay is a Special Initiative Action and thus still an action.
Further, if you are, say, poisoned while you may still delay you may not delay rolling for the poison effect.
As Deadmoon pointed out the paralyzed effect states you can still take mental actions. In fact if you had a Still/Silent spell memorized along with the Eschew Materials feats you should be able to cast it even while held.
I've had a sorcerer use bloodline rays when paralyzed before. The GM seemed surprised at the time but quickly got over it (0 dex makes things hard to aim)
1. Your group needs to grow up whether you where wrong or right.
2. You are wrong. RAW you cant take any actions. Delaying is an action. Plus it reaks of cheese. The NPC wouldn't know to delay. If you have a player do something smart or creative... let him have his moment.
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Finally consider this scenario. A PC is unconscious and one failed stabilization check away from death. His turn in the initiative order comes ups and decides to delay until the cleric gets a go. To me this seems perfectly fine.
I'm with fretgod and ryric; bleeding, or making additional saves vs poison, aren't really actions the injured party is choosing to make. If they were, then, they'd just sit still and never die.
A better way of describing when they kick in, would be to say that they occur on the same initiative count as the initial triggering attack, and they are triggered 'immediately before the target takes their turn'.
Therefore, they're not actually considered part of the target's 'actions', or even the attacker's actions, but are things that take place on a pre-designated point in the next round(s).
Consider; a mage shoots a target with acid arrow on initiative 20. On the next round, initiative 20, he chooses to delay to initiative 10.
Does the second round of acid damage the target on initiative 20, or 10? The answer is obviously 20.
If he delays continuously, would you rule that the acid lies dormant on the target's skin, round after round, till he notices it again, and 'remembers' that he cast it?
Consider; a caster summons a monster on initiative 20, and it acts.
Next round, the caster delays.
Why would the monster delay? It's a separate creature, with it's own initiative, set when the spell was first cast.
Same with black tentacles, or any other effect that deals constant damage or a new attack each round.
Consider also, a PC who falls off a cliff (tall enough not to reach the bottom in one round).
Is the PC allowed to delay, and thus, hang in mid-air for several minutes, while his friends run to the bottom and place some soft objects below?
Or would he fall, at the predetermined time next round?
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Aberrant "Not an Action" has this caveat "...are considered an inherent part of doing something else...". "Not an Action" does not include 5-foot step or Delay these are listed as "No Action" on Core Rule pg 181 and they have unique in game results all to themselves.
Since "Not an action" is listed among the descriptions of action types, and corresponds with "No Action" on the chart above I think it's pretty clear that they're the same thing and "No Action" is just a space constraint abbreviation.
Having said that, Delay is indeed listed elsewhere in the rulebook .. under "Special Initiative Actions" which, as you can see from both the chart and the description, is not a standard, move, full-round, immediate, or free action. It's a "no action" action and doesn't have a blanket "all actions of this type behave this way" restriction like the others do.
It's still an action, and you still can't take it.
2. You are wrong. RAW you cant take any actions. Delaying is an action. Plus it reaks of cheese. The NPC wouldn't know to delay. If you have a player do something smart or creative... let him have his moment.
Why wouldn't he know to delay? He knows he has a buddy with Dispel Magic. He could certainly hope his buddy will help him out. Teams of adventurers who travel together and know each other should be VERY aware of the capabilities of their companions and should work together as a TEAM.
You never have to delay for a specific reason. It's perfectly fine to say "I delay until I'm able to move again". Completely within the rules. Of course, this means he gives up his chance to spend a full-round action to make a Save each round (assuming he delays for multiple rounds waiting to be free).
So doing such a delay is allowed, but risky, and it fully depends on having an ally cast (and succeed) a Dispel Magic on you. If not, you're wasting actions that might be used to break free.
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Aberrant could you please quote the rule you are referring? As I see nothing beyond a chart showing Delay and 5 foot step are not actions
Here's a link to the combat section look for Table: Actions in Combat and scroll down past standard, move, etc. Near the bottom there are some actions that don't take up a normal standard, move, free, or full-round action listed under "No action".
If you scroll down further you'll see the descriptions for standard, free, and "not an action".
Since Hold Person has a save this seems to be a clear violation.
Hold Person has a save because it specifically says it has a save. It paralyzes you and you can't take any actions except making a save (as a full-round action) to try and break the effect.
Specific rules trump general rules.
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Consider also; the intent behind Hold Person, is clearly that the new saving throws the target receives each round are as a result of the target spending all of the preceding round, fighting against the effect.
Like a person who's been tasered, tries to get their act together.
If a target were to seriously suggest that they delay, and therefore sit there like a cabbage, for several seconds of that round, the GM is perfectly within their rights to warn them that by not fighting back, they were forfeiting their next round's save.
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When you get a Hold Person spell to land, it feels like an accomplishment (even if a silly little minor one). If you cast the spell and the save is made, it's a bummer, but at least you feel like you got a fair shake. If you cast a spell, the save is failed, but there's no impact because of initiative shenanigans, it feels wrong.
I was GMing a game and the group was at the climax of the chapter and the group was getting worked over pretty good (two of the four running in fear, a third on the ground unconscious). The cleric, some bastard son of a third-rate dwarven noble, was up in the initiative count and cast hold person as a last ditch hope for survival. The target failed the save. There was much rejoicing.
Oh well, everyone had fun.
On the other hand, once they're about to land the final blow on the BBEG of the campaign, I could be like: "psych! It was all a dream!" and describe to them how the spell really failed and they got wiped. Heh. GMs can dream...
2. You are wrong. RAW you cant take any actions. Delaying is an action.
Read RAW again, you can certainly take actions - They just have to be purely mental ones. Surely you aren't arguing that delaying your initiative is a 'physical' action.
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Why wouldn't he know to delay? He knows he has a buddy with Dispel Magic. He could certainly hope his buddy will help him out. Teams of adventurers who travel together and know each other should be VERY aware of the capabilities of their companions and should work together as a TEAM.
This assumes that the NPCs in question are actually a team that has worked together for a reasonably long period of time, and that he knows what is buddy has prepared for spells that day, and that his buddy isn't also paralyzed (it's not like he can turn his head and look, and a round is only 6 seconds total for everyone. By the time his buddy talks again it could be the next round). It also assumes he's willing to NOT try and resist the spell on his own in the blind hope that his friend will immediately turn and cast dispel magic on the effect.
It's the difference between "my loyal friend will help me" and "my loyal friend will definitely help me within the this current six second timespan".
Which, unless they can communicate telepathically or share a hive mind of some sort, is pretty much metagaming.
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2. You are wrong. RAW you cant take any actions. Delaying is an action.Read RAW again, you can certainly take actions - They just have to be purely mental ones. Surely you aren't arguing that delaying your initiative is a 'physical' action.
You can certainly take mental actions while you're paralyzed. But if you read the RAW for Hold Persion you'll see that the spell paralyzes you AND stops you from taking any actions.
So you have all the penalties of paralysis AND you can't take any actions. Mental or otherwise.
I don't see any significant rule problem with a held creature delaying an action. I would consider it a prerequisite that the creature doing so would have to be one cool cat to patiently wait and not struggle against the hold effect, trusting someone else to release him instead. In other words, it's not a tactic just anyone should use.
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2. You are wrong. RAW you cant take any actions. Delaying is an action.Read RAW again, you can certainly take actions - They just have to be purely mental ones. Surely you aren't arguing that delaying your initiative is a 'physical' action.You can certainly take mental actions while you're paralyzed. But if you read the RAW for Hold Persion you'll see that the spell paralyzes you AND stops you from taking any actions.
So you have all the penalties of paralysis AND you can't take any actions. Mental or otherwise.
Delaying is not an action.
Delaying is not an action.
Was this listed in errata at some point, then?
I know this came up at a table some months ago, was looked up and was listed as an action. Maybe we were looking at an out of date source?
Delay IS an action. It's a special initiative action.
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Delaying is not an action.
Special Initiative Actions
Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.Delay
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat.
So delaying is not a standard action, a move action, a full round action, a free action, or an immediate action. It's a special initiative action. Which is still, as you can plainly see in the name, an action.
It's just an action that falls outside the normal "you can do this many of this specific type of action in a six second combat round" rules. Like using a skill, using a feat, or taking a five foot step, delaying is a miscellaneous action that works differently than "normal" actions (standard, move, etc) unless otherwise noted (such as "ready" which is a special initiative action that eats up a standard action in combat).
But it's still an action, and you can't do it when you're magically held by hold person.
2. You are wrong. RAW you cant take any actions. Delaying is an action.Read RAW again, you can certainly take actions - They just have to be purely mental ones. Surely you aren't arguing that delaying your initiative is a 'physical' action.
Read the spell again, you cant take ANY actions... physical or mental.
Hold Person:
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech.
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So the only question here is whether "Delay" is an action or not. If it is an action, Hold Person says you cannot do it. If it is not an action, then you can delay while under a Hold Person because you are not taking an action.
The CRB contradicts itself. "Delay" is listed as a "Special Initiative Action" which makes it seem like an action, but it is also listed in the "Combat Actions" chart as being "No Action", which makes it seem like it is not an action.
Maybe that is a good FAQ candidate.
Why wouldn't he know to delay? He knows he has a buddy with Dispel Magic. He could certainly hope his buddy will help him out. Teams of adventurers who travel together and know each other should be VERY aware of the capabilities of their companions and should work together as a TEAM.This assumes that the NPCs in question are actually a team that has worked together for a reasonably long period of time, and that he knows what is buddy has prepared for spells that day, and that his buddy isn't also paralyzed (it's not like he can turn his head and look, and a round is only 6 seconds total for everyone. By the time his buddy talks again it could be the next round). It also assumes he's willing to NOT try and resist the spell on his own in the blind hope that his friend will immediately turn and cast dispel magic on the effect.
It's the difference between "my loyal friend will help me" and "my loyal friend will definitely help me within the this current six second timespan".
Which, unless they can communicate telepathically or share a hive mind of some sort, is pretty much metagaming.
You are asssuming alot.
1. The NPC understands magic (has ranks in spellcraft/Know Arcana)
2. Knows his ally can cast Dispel Magic (Not used often).
3. Knows his ally has said spell memorized. Do they discuss what his has available each day... does the caster give him a list of spells he has memorized?
Either way it doesnt work. And either way, whether it works or not doesnt really matter. The OP should have let Hold Person work. After all the NPC only lost a single round. It at least would have let his player feel like it didnt make him waste a turn and spell slot.
DM Blake, I would argue that there is no such thing as a non-action. Pedantically speaking, the of Combat Actions lists all actions available during combat to include the No Action action.
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So the only question here is whether "Delay" is an action or not. If it is an action, Hold Person says you cannot do it. If it is not an action, then you can delay while under a Hold Person because you are not taking an action.
The CRB contradicts itself. "Delay" is listed as a "Special Initiative Action" which makes it seem like an action, but it is also listed in the "Combat Actions" chart as being "No Action", which makes it seem like it is not an action.
Maybe that is a good FAQ candidate.
I totally agree that flagging this for the FAQ is a good idea, if for no other reason than it may come up in PFS. My guess is that this is a copy/paste issue from the previous rulebook that slid under the proverbial radar.
In 3.5 "delay" was listed on the "miscellaneous actions" chart. It was listed under "no action" but grapple, trip, and disarm were also on the "miscellaneous actions" chart underneath "Delay" and the heading "no action" was clearly in the context of "does this abnormal action use a standard action or move action or ...". Also, that table was written before things like immediate actions existed (and I'm pretty sure was, itself, a holdover from 3.0).
When Pathfinder rolled combat maneuvers over into their own CMB/CMD thing, it took away all the other miscellaneous actions on that table except "5 foot step" and "delay". And in order to save space in the rulebook it looks like Pathfinder unified the "standard action" and "move action" tables into one big "actions in combat" table (and removed "miscellaneous action" as a heading on the table,even though it's still listed as a category group below).
So by unifying the tables and removing combat maneuvers, it removes the context that clarified "delay" is a type of action.
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To me, it seems like if you can't delay an action to avoid the onset of poison, you shouldn't be able to delay an action to avoid making a full-round saving throw to overcome a Hold Person spell.
Wharwick are you saying you have changed your stance from how you ruled it during play?
To me, it seems like if you can't delay an action to avoid the onset of poison, you shouldn't be able to delay an action to avoid making a full-round saving throw to overcome a Hold Person spell.
His held action isn't what prevented his having the take a full round action, his allies dispel magic was.