Goblin Squad Member
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It sounds like Architect and Construction Worker/Building Craftmaster will be ways to make a living, even if you also hunt goblins.
The mention of the Mayor's Desk interface is reminiscent of early Start Wars Galaxies, and to me that's a good thing. It's got me excited about a future blog on Settlement Politics/Leadership.
Even if we don't have actual character housing (especially early on), I think I'll probably pick one of those support buildings and claim that my character lives there. "See that window near the drainspout? That's my little corner of the attic."
Edit: This system seems to owe a lot to the town planning system in Kingmaker and Ultimate Campaign. That's a great link between the tabletop game and the MMO. Even if the combat mechanics aren't d20-based, touches like this will help to make PFO feel like a Pathfinder game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the main question in my mind at this point is how settlement size works. Are all settlements roughly the same size or are some much larger than others?
Do you start with as much land available in your settlement as you will ever receive or can you raise it from a village, to a city, to a metropolis with high enough development indexes and population?
Chief Technical Officer
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I think the main question in my mind at this point is how settlement size works. Are all settlements roughly the same size or are some much larger than others?
Do you start with as much land available in your settlement as you will ever receive or can you raise it from a village, to a city, to a metropolis with high enough development indexes and population?
I *think* that's one of the things that will be revealed during the Goblinworks seminar at PaizoCon next weekend...
In general, the upgrade path for a building will look like the core, permanent structures are remaining in place and being improved... for example, a basic wizard tower... gains additional floors and the minor structures in the surrounding yard are replaced with additional wings or stone outbuildings.
So upgrades of the building will take up the same land space, in interests of not disturbing the settlement layout?
buildings designed to augment a specific larger building are usually small buildings.
This seems like the approach to enlarging a building... If they are adjacent, it would make sense for both buildings to visually merge to some degree (retaining some distinction since they are individually maintained and individually destroyable), although perhaps they don't need to be adjacent at least in all cases?
It sounds like design choices have been made to not have too much conflict with adjoining buildings when upgrading, but how much is it envisioned that Settlements will demolish or 're-design' neighborhoods when their needs change in the future, to accomodate the buildings they really want? It makes sense that the largest and most powerful settlements and capitols of kingdoms would eventually not want to preserve each and every building they had built from starting as a small hamlet, and rationalize things, maybe with bigger avenues, etc.
A settlement can only have a couple of large buildings, so deciding which large buildings to construct is how you decide what your settlement is going to do.
Is this a hard limit, or just a limitation per DI? Some Settlements having vast resources to have many more large buildings than the norm seems pretty reasonable, especially if it is the 'capitol' of a large kingdom (or with many hexes under it's direct control).
They take a plot of about the same size as a small plot, but often don't fill the whole space, which leaves empty gathering space in even a fully packed settlement.
That might be the extra wide walk-way, wider than the normal spaces between buildings but less than the road itself (in the video showing the stages of settlement buildings/neighborhood). About roads: are they all the same size, or is there larger 'avenues' (and/or plazas) as well?
While a large building might support several related character roles, a standard-sized building normally provides training for one specific character role.
This make me think that especially at low levels Settlments won't even need class-specific trainers, as the classes overlap in role alot. That makes it easier for beginning settlements because they don't need to worry about not having a trainer for every specific class, and if a PC wants to pursue a class/role that isn't locally popular, they can still fulfill a good amount of 'core' training at the settlement, only needing to seek outside training for the specific abilities they need/want.
When the building request is initiated, the designated construction materials are immediately reserved in the settlement bank.
So banks store bulk goods as well as money? How is the settlement bank different from other player-accessible banking/storage options? Is it functionally similar, but just tied to the settlement's leadership/permission structure?
Requesting a building construction causes a job to be posted on the settlement job board, along with the proposed payment for the project (see below). A flag also appears on the chosen plot, from which players can join the construction process. A minimum skill requirement for each structure is also set. This is initially determined by the structure itself but can be increased by the settlement if they wish. A settlement may restrict job access to members.
A character can only work on one structure at a time, and cannot be involved in working on another structure or crafting an item. However, the character is free to go adventure or travel—you can safely assume that when you're not online, your character is contributing to the construction effort.
Nice. The building system sounds a bit like the skill training system then. I suppose PCs who are particularly talented/effective at building might well be 'employed' in this manner much of the time (especially if there is alot of building work open to any worker and not closed to members). I wonder the impact of that on dynamics of training up the building skills themselves, for beginning PCs, especially in the longer time-scale of the game.
In a pinch, construction materials can also be created by standard player harvesting of naturally occurring resource nodes, but the exchange rate of low-quality crafting materials to bulk wood or bulk stone is pretty inefficient.
Perhaps this is someway a 'beginner' builder PC might get involved in the business, bring their own building materials to counteract their less efficient skills?
I hope some of the 'improvements' may be largely open space themself: a park with fountain, mini forested area, plaza, lake, etc, could be features which grant DI or have other benefits (or just be ornamental), but could mix up the urban geography somewhat (and offer interesting encounters for settlement PVP).
hmmm... lawful/neutral evil: hangman's noose platform for public executions?
and of course, for settlements on waterways, docks where ships tie up.
This Blog seemed to focus only on settlement owned buildings, that are largely serving a mechanical function for the settlement.
I heard at one point there would be 'privately' owned buildings as well. What is the status of that?
IMHO, I think it would be neat if something like ~30%-40% of a Settlement's buildings
would be independent guildhouses, warehouses, private houses, taverns and so on.
(stables to store and refresh/heal mounts and pack animals?)
Or even just having some sorts of "residential/general buildings" that "come with" an enlarging settlement,
the settlement can choose exactly where they are sited, but they MUST be sited somewhere for the settlement to continue to grow,
other than that they don't independently accomplish anything, although if they are damaged in war that would cause some problems.
(probably less than other types of important buildings being damaged, but this class of building will probably be the least defended)
Either or both make the settlement have a bit more substantial of presence as a settlement/urbanity,\
also making the urban geography more engaging than just a bunch of hyper-functional nodes.
Buildings that are privately owned would have their own userbase and add character to their neighborhoods,
people doing business in that zone may be dealing with the settlement buildings there or the private ones, etc.
Certainly not for EE, or even the early OE, but customization for private buildings,
hanging a colored/patterned banner or printed sign outside, customized 'paint trim',
make them recognizable and something to be proud of while adding character and depth to the whole settlement in their sum.
More broadly, what is the goal with privately owned buildings? Is the distinction of public/private basically come down to DI pre-req buildings are settlement only, and the rest can be owned by anybody who pays the cost? (i assume the settlement itself could build/run any types of buildings that an individual or venture company could)
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Goblin Squad Member
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A settlement can only have a couple of large buildings, so deciding which large buildings to construct is how you decide what your settlement is going to do.Is this a hard limit, or just a limitation per DI? Some Settlements having vast resources to have many more large buildings than the norm seems pretty reasonable, especially if it is the 'capitol' of a large kingdom (or with many hexes under it's direct control).
I expect this is a hard limit of large plots. GW want 'meaningful choices' and promotion of player interaction. A hard cap on large buildings gives a very meaningful choice + early turns the focus towards alliances and trade rather than self-sufficiency.
I see a picture emerging where you may well want to travel to a neighbor settlement for training because your hometown is focused on different classes (but where you don't want to move). Trade, diplomacy and politics ahoy!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the long work flow towards building completion: Lots of opportunity for organisation and contribution and decision-making (settlement strategic development).
Buildings come in four major sizes, based on the size of plot they require in the settlement district layout.
Skill-training appears to be a major feature of settlement buildings. Crafting is another. Are economic roles such as guard/harvester/builder part of the building system also? Eg Assassins have their own guild buildings?
players can sign up for the construction of the building.
I assume only settlement members can sign-up, which I think is probably a good thing per settlement, as it creates more choices for more players per settlement, instead of a few mega-construction corps monopolizing construction over all settlements?
you can safely assume that when you're not online, your character is contributing to the construction effort.
That's good, character utility when logged-out I think is a great idea.
Most construction materials are harvested by point-of-interest structures such as mines, quarries, or logging camps in wilderness hexes near the settlement
I'm wondering what's stopping an organization creating lots of points of interest to become a major supplier of timber for eg. Perhaps contesting surround Settlement Hex POIs would naturally lead to conflict so such enterprises would be doomed when in direct competition with a settlement - sort of Multi-National Companies < Settlements?
The blog said that when the settlement issues the work order for construction they can CHOOSE to limit it to settlement members only, but that clearly forsees the possibility of allowing non-members as well. If there is relatively specialized construction skills that aren't as common, it may make sense to use outside contractors, but it's set up to allow "keeping it in the family" if you want to...
I don't think there's any limit on the number of workers, or even if there is it should be easy enough for 'local' settlement members to sign up for the work order immediately when it's issued, alongside 'expert'/high skill workers brought in so it completes quickly... The 'local' members still get a prime chance to use their skill (gaining Deeds to train it up further)* but the building gets completed on a reasonably fast schedule (otherwise you have the entire sum of money tied up with no benefit for a longer time).
When trying to build up a settlement in an area that is being constantly raided (where the remoter PoI for bulk materials may be easy targets), it may be easier to defend convoys to bring the goods in, either bought off the open market or brought in directly from your own/allied settlements that are more established/in safer areas, as well as using builders who can complete it in the fasted time possible.
Lumber Consortium business plan: maintain lots of logging camp PoI and guarded convoys to transport it, pay bandits to raid/sabotage logging camp PoI of up and coming settlements: PROFIT. ;-)
I believe there is only one PoI per hex (or sub-hex? hex 2.0?), so having a logging camp/quarry/etc PoI is conflicting with other usages, i.e there is an opportunity cost per PoI. Settlements who can afford to and have the desire for other PoI may be willing to pay for bulk material so that they can use those PoI spots for other purposes. (security enhancing watchtowers, etc).
* They haven't really said whether the building skills will be based off Feats (enabled by Deeds, which you need to gain by practicing it) or be purely a skill based thing (which trains up passively all the time, and thus doesn't need 'applied usage' aka Deeds). Maybe both, you need to train the construction skill to train passively AND gain Deeds/Feats if you want to be really good at it...? I've kind of been wondering about the scope of the passively trained skill system, what exactly it covers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Quandary
From my reading of the Blog, bandits raiding theses common, bulk material (wood, stone, etc) would not be profitable and would carry with it too much risk.
GW has created this system to deter banditry, pushing those activities further out into the wilderness areas, which I fully agree with. They also support the nearly unhindered growth of settlements during the early phases, when only common bulk materials are needed.
As a settlement's buildings develop, they will need: Common, Uncommon, Rare, Very rare, etc.....
It will be at those upper levels where bandits will focus their efforts, and you can focus your contracts for bandits.
The only way a bandit company would take a contract vs. common bulk material camps is if you are at war and the bandit company joins in. At that point our risks would be lessened because it would remove the NPC wardens from the mix and all of the negative PVP effects as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Listening to "Welcome to the Pleasuredome" by Frankie Goes to Hollywood
1) The slide show vid seemed to depict the development path of harvesting camps and campsites. True/False?
2) Does the vid show development of Inns?
3) None of the development paths seemed to show a watchtower, although one might be construed as a fort. Does the watchtower have a development path to fort with further enhancements (escalations) to the fort?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It turns out that aren't all that many classic rock songs about constructing thingsI think there's a song about walls.Oh, and watchtowers.
Hey I'm good at this. When do I start work there?
Nearest I can think of: The Chemical Worker's Song ~ Great Big Sea (UP)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I noticed that you mentioned in passing the requirement for architectural plans. Is that idea still too much in flux to discuss in detail?
I wondered where they come from. Such as the most basic from an NPC source but then characters must train to draft plans beyond the first limited selection? That would make plans a crafted item themselves with skill (and material?) requirements which from my time with T2 BPCs in EVE was fun. And would architectural plans be tradeable/sellable to other settlements or kingdoms or their citizens?
Also a side note: One major factor in any crafting system is avoiding tiers of materials becoming useless after most characters level past them. Is it your intention that buildings be a large sink for low or middling quality materials so there's always a proportionally rewarding economic market for materials at all levels?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it your intention that buildings be a large sink for low or middling quality materials so there's always a proportionally rewarding economic market for materials at all levels?
Construction requires large quantities of relatively low-grade material—you're not looking for the perfect stave of wood to make an awesome bow, you need simple planks to make a floor and shingles to keep out the rain. Most construction materials are harvested by point-of-interest structures such as mines, quarries, or logging camps in wilderness hexes near the settlement, and aren't good for anything except the construction, upgrade, and maintenance of buildings. These materials include Bulk Wood, Bulk Stone, and Bulk Minerals. In a pinch, construction materials can also be created by standard player harvesting of naturally occurring resource nodes, but the exchange rate of low-quality crafting materials to bulk wood or bulk stone is pretty inefficient.
Construction materials sound like they're going to mostly be a separate market entirely.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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My understanding was that construction would use lots of "bulk wood" and "bulk stone", which can be made from any wood or stone at a low yield rate. It would be a waste to turn a rare burl of wood into a stud wall, but with magic you can.
It also raises the thought that high quality resources and mass-gathered resources are different things entirely, or that quality and quantity will have to be traded off against each other.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I noticed that you mentioned in passing the requirement for architectural plans. Is that idea still too much in flux to discuss in detail?
They're the same as the "blueprints" we first mentioned well over a year ago. (I realize that's not actually providing detail... I'm just pointing out it's not a new thing.)
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Chief Technical Officer
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1) The slide show vid seemed to depict the development path of harvesting camps and campsites. True/False?
2) Does the vid show development of Inns?
3) None of the development paths seemed to show a watchtower, although one might be construed as a fort. Does the watchtower have a development path to fort with further enhancements (escalations) to the fort?
The video is labeled "PFO Settlement Market Progression WIP". These are all places, within settlements, where commerce takes place. (If you look closely, you may be able to determine what types of goods might be available at some of them...)
I will just leave this here:
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Goblin Squad Member
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Where Alph, the Sacred River, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea
I first read the Coleridge quote in this .
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Goblin Squad Member
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It also made me think that all bulk Gathering will only produce "Bulk" materials.
I'm sure that will be one of the options. But you should be able to instruct your lumberjacks to look for suitable staves as well. Maybe you will end up with small amounts of poor quality raw materials (with or without a load of bulk materials on the side), but it should be doable.
Upgrading gathering facilities and/or manager skills should also give a choice of direction: quantity or quality. Cheaper/faster bulk goods or more/better crafting grade materials. Naturally the location will limit what can be gathered.
I do agree that the "typical mmo-style" node harvesting should not provide bulk materials but be focused on high quality .
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would prefer to see a variety of types of Large Buildings such that the choice to have a Large Training Facility for each major role was allowed, but with significant costs in other areas.
Isn't skill-training scope per settlement deliberately limited so any one settlement cannot be the chief nexus of training and player traffic around the map is always guaranteed? Or something suitably significant like that as well as too dominant/powerful?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hate this game and I hate these blogs and I hate all of you posters speculating. I can't enjoy any other video game. I just want to play Pathfinder already. Everything else tastes like gruel and every other community feels like kindergarden.
Damn you all.
Nothing tears the heart and rends the soul like a great Love/Hate scenario...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re: All Along the Watchtower
I like Bear's arrangement better, but I guess that's not classic rock (Though all this has been recorded before, and will be again.)
RE: Hobs I understand time constraints. I don't even know if I'll use my account, might let one of the girls log on and hook 'em into the RPG that way.