You've obviously never been on the receiving end of the awful discrimination that achievement linking (that I mentioned as well) was. I've never raided because I could never get into them. . . . Because I've never been in them.
The point being that PFO is just a fundamentally different game than WoW, organizing raids to farm repeatable instances is not the forseeable gaming pattern in PFO, and GW has made clear that low level/power characters will be able to contribute to higher level characters' combat.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The best way to make gearscore and deed count not be used to discriminate is to make it suboptimal to do so. WoW fails that test, because it is easier and faster to get someone who has provably already done the raid than to teach somebody how to do it.
If there's almost always an advantage for having another warm body, extra people will always be welcome. Groups with a more inclusive policy dominate.
Goblin Squad Member
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It's fundamentally different from what I'm talking about.Unfortunately, the emergent behaviour we're all looking forward to will be accompanied by the inevitable a$$holery we're concerned about. I've as-yet seen no GW-provided mechanism to avoid it; an excellent argument can be made that GW will allow GearScore, prior achievement requirement, and any other form of emotional or psychological cruelty until we the players put a stop to it...somehow.
We all will pitch in to stop online bullying-of course. But a Venture Company and/ or Settlement that is not selective about it's membership is not going to be around long; at least not as a useful entity. It makes sense to require certain Deeds, especially to join an 'inner circle' type of thing. And if you want to turn this rather light hearted thread into another "what is griefing" death spiral-don't. Start your own thread.
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to add to my prev. post, these 'Deeds' (if we can use that term) aren't really equivalent to 'proof of running an instance',
they are for things like 'killing 10x/100x/1000x enemies', 'healing X hps', 'stealthing X times without getting caught'.
if there are Deeds linked to NPC faction quests, etc, i don't expect that you will be routinely re-playing that same quest,
the Deed will be used as a 'key' to FUTURE, different content and abilities...
pretty much, i don't see the problem with knowing that info.
but as it happens, nothing from GW has suggested that 'Deeds'/Merit Badges are in any way visible to others,
that was merely a random suggestion of mind for some Divination ability, which i hardly expect to see in early EE/OE.
so no worries.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gearscore is not effective to measure by itself, because most players can wear all of the same gear. No real level restrictions. Gear quality holds the potential. It is the selection of skills trained that deliver the value to the gear.
Also, since gear requires Threading to keep in death, it is built into the game that not everybody is going to put on all of their best stuff each time they go out.
Additionally, keep in mind that they are trying to control the power curve a lot more than wow does. The difference between a player with good training and good gear and the player with excellent training and excellent gear is not enough to make up for how skilled the player actually is at managing their combat resources (such as Opportunity).
There are two major problems with games like WoW.
One is the fact that battle management has very formulaic optimization on which attacks to use when. That leads to essentially a bunch of same-built characters using the same rotations. The only skill there is "get out of the highlighted circle" or "get into the highlighted circle". This means that gear is the most important possible factor in high-end content (given players able to follow basic instructions).
The second is the fact that the difference in gear is outstanding that competing with characters of the same level that have better gear is insanely difficult. The incremental stat differences make such huge changes in overall power that it does not "provide and edge" it puts a character "on another level entirely".
So long as PFO can avoid formulaic combat rotations through more dynamic AI and having secondary factors and damage be strongly affected by minor changes in other character's current actions, AND make sure that gear provides a meaningful edge but does not make one untouchable then I feel the gearscore issue will not be as strongly emphasized as it is in WoW.
Removing party size caps would also help reduce inclusion discrimination.
However... all of this is really a topic for another thread.
This thread is about what to call Merit Badges (to which I still need to know if they are used as Threshold or Spent and if they are Generic or Specific).
they're used as a threshold, i.e. a pre-requisite, along with other pre-requisites like levels of a skill, BAB, etc.
'class role ranks' are another specific type of merit badge/pre-requisite.
you don't lose any of those when you qualify for a new feat and take that feat,
although you need higher/more pre-reqs to meet higher level feats in the future,
and you need more feat slots to gain more feats of the same 'level' (in terms of pre-reqs)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You've obviously never been on the receiving end of the awful discrimination that achievement linking (that I mentioned as well) was. I've never raided because I could never get into them. . . . Because I've never been in them.
Part of the reason I quite TOR is because I got over the gearscore required for low tier raids and asked my guild "Now that I'm well over what we need, can we let a member who's under what we need in on this next raid?" and they answered no.
Correct me if I'm wrong there, but has there been any mention of group size limits in this game? If there isn't, then that solves your whole problem right there. No disadvantage to bringing an extra zergling along.
Besides, the 'Deeds' are pre-requisities for Ability Feats, doesn't matter whether the Deeds are visible themselves, people can make accurate inferences from seeing what Abilities you use in Combat, which is really what matters.
the difference is that unlike WoW with generic XP letting you anonymously progress up a generic skill tree, class abilities in PFO will be dependent on doing the SPECIFIC in-game actions to fulfill their pre-reqs... some of them may end up being rather generic, but some may be more specific, either in alignment implications, NPC faction implications, or other factors. but that isn't a POWER differentiator, because if there are very specific Deeds there will be OTHER Deeds that are just as powerful, people won't be excluded on a narrow 1-dimensional power analysis basis for not having a certain Deed... if people are excluded for having/not having a specific game-context Deed, it will be by intent, for story/world coherence, and you will not be excluded from gameplay in general, but your choices in-game/story will just have in-game/story implications.
I like Myths or Legends. Failing that, I like Deeds, although there are issues with that -- namely the potential conflicts with property deeds, or Gunslinger Deeds if the class is ever included. I'd go with Deed if not for that.
To criticize my own idea, Myths and Legends both sound more like something a high-level character would earn.
All 'class features' look like they will be implemented via Feats, and that should go for Gunslinger abilities as well, if and when that is ever introduced to the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They are not really Achievements in the traditional sense though. They are actually a form of currency used for doing something that can only be spent towards training. They cannot be hung on the wall and probably do not show up to other people inspecting your character.
Of course, my understanding may be jaded by assumption.
Let's say I earn 5 Badges of Swordsmanship [Attack]
The Swords trainer has the following...
Sword Specialization 1 (1 Swordsmanship)
Sword Specialization 2 (SS1 + 2 Swordsmanship)
Sword Specialization 3 (SS2 + 6 Swordsmanship)
BAB +1 (1 Attack)
BAB +2 (BAB 1 + 2 Attack)
BAB +3 (BAB 2 + 5 Attack)If I Train BAB1 and SS1, do I now have 3 badges? Or am I able to buy all the way up to BAB3 and SS2 because I have reached the 5 badge threshold (assuming I have the XP)?
I think we may need more information about how this system works before we even discuss terms.
I don't think that Badges will be a currency at all. I think they're just prerequisites.
XP will be a currency. Want a rank in the Basket Weaving skill? Spend 100 XP (and some gold, if the Settlement is charging you for training).
Badges will be earned by doing things. The Badge called Beginning Sword Swinger might be achieved by swinging a sword at an enemy 100 times. After I take that 100th swing, I think the game will just say "You've earned the Beginning Sword Swinger badge."
Beginning Sword Swinger might count toward the badge requirement for Fighter, Ranger and Rogue, all at once. If I've been out doing things, and I've gotten a few other badges, I might discover that by earning Beginning Sword Swinger, I've just fulfilled the requirements for Fighter Level 3 and Ranger Level 1. I don't think I'll need to tell the game that I want to spend the Beginning Sword Swinger badge towards one class or the other. I'll still have the badge, and the new class level(s).
Some Feats may cost XP and require certain Badges, Feats and/or class levels as prerequisites. Want the Great Cleave feat? Buy the Cleave feat, achieve the Experienced Cleaver badge by cleaving enemies 250 times, achieve Fighter Level 3, and then spend 100 XP and some gold.
This is just how I understand the system. If I've mixed anything up, someone please set me straight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't forget ability score requirements and increases for/from feats.
I'm not clear on how those interact.
Great Cleave may require Cleave, Experienced Cleaver, Fighter Level 3, 100 XP, and 25 gold. If Strength 12 is a requirement for Fighter Level 3, then it's effectively a requirement for Great Cleave, too.
Will Fighter Level 3 require Strength 12 (requiring 6 strength Feats) and 5 Badges from the Fighter category?
Note: All numbers above are totally speculative. I'm just including them so we don't have to assign variables to them in conversation (X Feats + Y Badges/Deeds + Z Class Levels).
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think that within the example context, great cleave required STR 14, Cleave (the feat that grants the heavy weapon ability of the same name, which hits two opponents but adds a negative state to the attacker), and the deed "and knock them down" (defeat four foes in the same tick); and provides +.25 STR and the Great Cleave ability (similar to cleave, but it hits more or all enemies in range, and has a higher stamina cost).
Fighter 3 is a certificate, and doesn't grant any additional anything, nor is it required for anything. You get it for having the basic and intermediate weapon ability feats with a martial weapon group that you have the weapon group focus passive ability for. Many people might earn fighter 3 at the same time as they train great cleave, but others might learn it when they learn Spring Attack. (I can't find enough good names from the PnP to keep the comparison going, so the equivalencies are wrong.)
(This is, of course, all wild speculation based on a few tidbits; but I think it's a good speculation)
pretty sure it's been stated by GW that role ranks like 'fighter 3' WILL be pre-reqs for certain things,
although they are essentially shorthand for the pre-reqs to getting fighter 3 in the first place.
shorthands make things easier to discuss/conceptualize, and gaining a role rank makes it clear
(or is a 'reminder') that you qualify for some things related to that role...
Deed sounds like something you would have to do to get a merit badge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Deed" works, as long as they use something else for the property ownership papers. 'Titles' is no good for that, since that would also have another frequently-encountered meaning. Perhaps 'charter' or simply, 'document' would work for the establishment/property meaning of 'deed'.
I very much doubt that gunslingers will be added to PFO at all, or at least not in any timeframe soon enough to matter to us. I can't find the reference now, but I recall there being regret on some Paizo members' part that firearms were added to Golarion at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Before I hit the sack-I'm surprised by the number of peeps who like 'merit badges' or 'badges'. Don't mind 'Ranks' except for the Warhammer Online connection because I liked that game 'til they killed it. I like 'Stripes' (AvenaOats?) for combat deeds/badges for some reason. Still like the idea of a way to show off your Deeds with an appropriate name for each one. 'The Deed of Fiery Wrath' is great to annoy your friends and enemies; 'You have Achieved rank 3 arcane fire spells' is bland, imho.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think that Badges will be a currency at all. I think they're just prerequisites.
XP will be a currency. Want a rank in the Basket Weaving skill? Spend 100 XP (and some gold, if the Settlement is charging you for training).
Badges will be earned by doing things. The Badge called Beginning Sword Swinger might be achieved by swinging a sword at an enemy 100 times. After I take that 100th swing, I think the game will just say "You've earned the Beginning Sword Swinger badge."
...
this is exactly how I've interpreted the system too!
(except I think the Beginning Sword Swinger would be more about 10 hits than 100 swings, and the Experienced Cleaver would be more about killing 5 enemies with cleave than hitting 250. Focused tasks rather than long grinds).
It's fundamentally different from what I'm talking about.Unfortunately, the emergent behaviour we're all looking forward to will be accompanied by the inevitable a$$holery we're concerned about. I've as-yet seen no GW-provided mechanism to avoid it; an excellent argument can be made that GW will allow GearScore, prior achievement requirement, and any other form of emotional or psychological cruelty until we the players put a stop to it...somehow.
While I have issues with the way Gear Score was used for some time in WoW, I have no problem with the achievement. It's PROOF that you know what the heck you're doing. It can stink in the case of people with alts that have done it, especially multiple alts, but I seriously cannot blame someone for not wanting to spend an evening dying repeatedly because someone doesn't know what they're doing. As frustrating as that might be to someone new to the raid/dungeon/whatever, that's what friends and guilds are for. Gear Score is just elitism in it's most unadulterated form, when used to bar people from doing something. If they've already done it with the gear they have then there's no reason that they cannot again.
However, considering that 'merit badges' are requirements for getting feats I really don't see how that can be an issue. Especially in a game as PvP centric as PFO is going to be. In a PvP raid, there is absolutely no reason to deny someone's request to come along... unless a specific skill(i.e. stealth) is required and then, why is it a problem to make sure that everyone that's going along has it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you have it right. The point of the thread is to come up with a new cool NAME for 'merit badge' 'cause that sounds like something you wear for knitting a yarn and beer-can collage. No disrespect to macrame enthusiasts, you understand-I'll even come by your in-game shop. Can't guarantee I'll buy anything, though.I thought feats were purchased the same way as skills? Perhaps I missed something somewhere...
I thought all advancement was purchased through a Time-Accrued system (currently called experience) and an Action-Accrued system (currently called merits).
Is that not the case? What portion do I have wrong?
In my understanding there is training you exchange for XP and then gating actions/accomplishments you do to qualify for that training. The accomplishments are deeds and the training is in skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm actually not big on "Deeds", partly because of the ambiguity of meaning since it can also refer to a certificate of ownership.
I was thinking the same thing.
"Distinction" might also work, but I definitely think "Deed" would be an issue with all of the land ownership concepts in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like Deeds, and it feels as if context will easily keep anything related to buildings or other possessions from causing confusion. I think one can say "I just got a Deed to a tavern", and no one can confuse it with "I just got a Deed for Master Archer".
Newbie: "How do I get deeds?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there are other words to explain land holdings and claims; since most holdings will be group efforts, they won't change hands that often. I like claims for the land. It suggests someone can usurp your group's property rights; land "deeds" are upheld by law not by force, and in the River Kingdoms, force matters. Holdings might apply to buildings, structures, and other developed property on a group's claim.
"Deed" is a nice short word for accomplishment; words that will be used often should be kept short, imo.
I'm not sure deed is that exact word to replace merit badge; it might be a level higher. That is, GW could use "deeds" to label all of the various actions they track for a character: kills (35 goblins); finds (exploration related actions); crafting counts; and skill demonstrations (merit badges).
Thinking of a narrower term for a demonstration of skill... I'm not sure what it would be called in martial arts. Test or try? A skill test? So "skill training" + "skill test" earns a complete "skill"?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Aren't there going to be hang ups on most English nouns as many have multiple definitions? Why do we need to have "Deed" as a certificate of ownership? It seems to me that "Title", "Certificate of Ownership", or something similar, could be the item to initiate building a structure and proving ownership if necessary.
"Certificate of Ownership" is clunky but will be used far less often than "Deed" would as a descriptor for accomplishments and so probably would not be an issue. In other words: The term we use for merit badges will be in common usage. The term for the title to a building will be rarely used.
I like the sound of "Bringslite's Deeds"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Calling them Deeds or Badges sound like your are carrying something physical though. Like some deity comes up and pats you on the back and hands you a token. That feels wrong to me.
It would be weird if a character is going to go around asking other characters if they have a Deed for Master Archery IN CHARACTER. That would be an out of character discussion. They would instead say "Have you mastered archery?"
The other definition of Deed is off too. "An action that is performed intentionally or consciously." There could be merits for unintended consequences. You set out to work on your Archery, but you get hit a lot and get an Armor or Toughness merit. A character acting in character is very rarely going to go out looking to take damage. In this event, they earned something unintentionally.
I feel very strongly that Achievement is a better term. Accomplishment works, but not as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be weird if a character is going to go around asking other characters if they have a Deed for Master Archery IN CHARACTER.
Conversely, having a minstrel sing of your great deeds would be entirely valid (and rather ego-stroking).
Your deeds could be being a great swordsman, a master archer, a despicable pickpocket, or whatever. They are titles of achievement that also happen to have an in-game mechanical benefit. That the word slips seamlessly into a pseudo-medieval setting is an enormous plus, in my view.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you need to call it anything in game (i.e. in character) how about Forte ?
As long as your character sheet shows you what you can go train, why do we need 'merit badges' at all, on the player side ?ps
I agree with the Life Dragon, it's meta , not RP knowledge.
Mechanically simpler, and a good idea, but we would still need to be able to talk about it, to explain how it works to those who don't understand, wouldn't we?
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Goblin Squad Member
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We would definitely still need an OOC (or meta) term. Achievement tends to be industry standard. It is not unusual for achievements to grant certain benefits when used in other games as well. PFO would just take it a bit further and actually make them VERY meaningful and intrinsic to the game, instead of just being some tacked on meta feature.
Deeds would sound cool for non-training related achievements. A bard is not going to sing about a master swordsman because he is a master swordsman. A bard is going to sing about a master swordsman because he killed Erezorax the mighty Red Dragon that terrorizes the Crusader Road, stealing the wares of luxury merchants and eating men and horse alike. A bard is going to sing about the powerful sorceress who stood alone to save the budding settlement from goblinkin (High level character solo-ing a low level escalation event for example).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bit late in the conversation, but from a UK perspective, how about referring to the "Pathfinder Honor Roll" (a bit like being honored by the Queen for outstanding public service)
They are usual the forms of special titles or medals or both - for medals, you could have "KoG" - Knight of Golarion, "SoBT" - Survivor of the Beta Tests, Grand Order of Pathfinder, etc - a sequence of medals that could be displayed in a medals box, some of which could grant specific titles you can "wear" in game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Calling them Deeds or Badges sound like your are carrying something physical though. Like some deity comes up and pats you on the back and hands you a token. That feels wrong to me.
It would be weird if a character is going to go around asking other characters if they have a Deed for Master Archery IN CHARACTER. That would be an out of character discussion. They would instead say "Have you mastered archery?"
The other definition of Deed is off too. "An action that is performed intentionally or consciously." There could be merits for unintended consequences. You set out to work on your Archery, but you get hit a lot and get an Armor or Toughness merit. A character acting in character is very rarely going to go out looking to take damage. In this event, they earned something unintentionally.
I feel very strongly that Achievement is a better term. Accomplishment works, but not as well.
There is another way to look at it.
"Have you performed the Deeds necessary to learn Master Archery?"
"What Deeds did the Master Trainer assign you this time?"
There is a lot of unnecessary hang up on the idea that a deed has to be a physical object instead a of a term for an accomplishment.
What is one of the definitions of elf?
1: a small often mischievous fairy
2: a small lively creature; also : a usually lively mischievous or malicious person
I got over that definition when I started playing D&D.
"Ownership" is the 4th definition in the dictionary for deed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a lot of unnecessary hang up on the idea that a deed has to be a physical object instead a of a term for an accomplishment.
Agreed. "Have you done your good deed for the day?" There's no physical object associated with that. It's just something you did (I do wonder about the origin of deed vs. did).
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Goblin Squad Member
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A lot of the ways that performing deeds are being described just rubs me the wrong way. There is too much focus on using the term, I think. That may be my issue. It doesn't match with how I expect others to normally speak.
"Have you mastered archery?" Is how I expect someone to ask me a question.
"Have you performed the deeds to master archery?" Sounds weird to me. Who speaks like that? It gets worse if deeds may be as contrived as 'Kill X Enemies with a Ranged Weapon'. Mastery of archery is usually displayed in contests, not in battle. In battle, it only matters if you hit them well enough to bring them down. A master hits their exact target - be it a bullseye on a target dummy, or the eye of an enemy.
It feels as if we are trying to make an abstraction into a concrete element. We're taking a Meta event and trying to force it to be meaningful in game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(I do wonder about the origin of deed vs. did).
It is etymology: Deed is Old English, among other languages ranging as far as Lithuania, and has roots in the Greek word thesis. There appears a close relationship between deed and did.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bit late in the conversation, but from a UK perspective, how about referring to the "Pathfinder Honor Roll" (a bit like being honored by the Queen for outstanding public service)
They are usual the forms of special titles or medals or both - for medals, you could have "KoG" - Knight of Golarion, "SoBT" - Survivor of the Beta Tests, Grand Order of Pathfinder, etc - a sequence of medals that could be displayed in a medals box, some of which could grant specific titles you can "wear" in game.
It seems to me that Medals, Titles and Rolls of Honor will be created and handed out by PC kingdoms and nations. We're looking for a cool name for 'merit badge' which is the closest thing to 'levels' PFO is going to have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is etymology: Deed is Old English, among other languages ranging as far as Lithuania, and has roots in the Greek word thesis.
So if I understand: "do" is the verb, "did" is the past tense of the verb. A "do-ing" or "deed" would be the related noun?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just name them uniquely and have done ?
Call them collectively 'Prerequisites' like in the Pen and Paper PFRPG.
Why call them levels, badges, titles or deeds when they are going to be known by their name anyway.
Capstone Ranger: Got 'Marksman' yet ?
New Ranger: You mean 'Marksman Level Deed of Valor' ?
Capstone Ranger: ...
New Ranger: Yeah I got Marksman.
Capstone Ranger: Okay, go talk to the trainer about 'Deadeye'.
New Ranger: You mean 'Deadeye Merit Badge of Title' ?
Capstone Ranger: ...
New Ranger: <heads to the trainer>
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is etymology: Deed is Old English, among other languages ranging as far as Lithuania, and has roots in the Greek word thesis.So if I understand: "do" is the verb, "did" is the past tense of the verb. A "do-ing" or "deed" would be the related noun?
Indeed. That is the meaning I am finding.
Isn't English wonderful?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, if our opinion matters on this one, it looks it's Deeds or Accomplishments so far by my informal count. With keeping it at Merit Badges (or Badges) also in the hunt. Brothers, Sisters, am I really going to have to 'brag' to my gaming group that I just got merit badge 6 for my cleric archetype? Or "Guys, I just finished the Deed 'Mask of Undeath!' Let those bozos just try to touch me now!" I guess you could give 'Achievements' neat names also. In my own personal bias, achievement is the word to use to describe how I reached a 'level' of character advancement in normal conversation-not the name of the level itself. This thread is great bar conversation (witness Beings' link above) but I just thought that settling on a few terms for core game mechanics would help communication and all the new people that come to the messageboards.