This is mostly for a game that would be started at L10 and go up to 20 and then still go a bit longer, but it's an interesting excercise in general, what might be some alternatives to Shocking Grasp, for the purpose of magic lineage/spell perfection/etc?
It's such a staple o so many builds, does it have competative alternatives?
Vampric Touch? Spellblending/Arcana'ing for Enervation? Corrosive Consumption? Do any start to stand out?
What about combined with certain builds? [Example: A hexcrafter using his ability to lower saves to try and make Disintigrate nasty, or a Kensai using vampric touch combined with their high late game ACs to make a passable tank]
If you wanted to get weird, you could take a 2-level dip into the daivrat PrC to let your little assistant genie retrieve a single 1st-3rd level touch spell from any class spell list for you each day, prepare it in at least one slot and then spell recall it when needed. That opens up a lot of options.
I've been wondering that myself. Shocking grasp seems such a staple. I suppose one could just flavor a different element, but I'd like something with a little more spark. As it were.
Vampric touch is one of my favorites.
Snowball with close range is solid.
While pool strikes damage is low it is unaffected by SR and with arcing pool can be of good use. (while not a spell it seemed relevant enough to the topic at hand.)
Vampric touch is one of my favorites.
In a high end game everything is impressive so in context the following isn't game breaking, but I was bored at work so did some math behind VT at say level 16-17, when you can get magical lineage and spell perfection on it.
Piercing spell, Empowered spell, Vamp Touch, with ML negating the +1, and Spell Perf negating the +2 = Level 3 spell slot [so, a fair number to burn a day]
Now stack on the maximize spell arcana, on your opening round.
8d6+4d6 becomes 8x6 + 4x6, or 72 dmg and 72hp buffer gained. If you don't crit, which at that level, you probably will 1/3 the time.
Every follow up round you do it w/o maximize it'll still be 42 or so.
Stack that with the right combination of defensive spells or archtype features like the Kensai has, and you've got a Magus that can toe to toe with some of the tougher beasties.
... and at that level, a lot more creatures are immune/resistant to electricity damage anyway.
Didn't bother to double check these numbers, and probably some flaws I'm not seeing, but it certainly doesn't look bad on the face of it.
Spell Dancer archetype and then burn feats to get to Snake Fang. Dash around the field with your increased movement and increased AC versus AoOs, soak up all of the foes' AoOs, then deliver metamagic\arcana-augmented Frostbite or Chill Touch attacks via unarmed strikes in retaliation for their AoOs. If you wanted to do so you could probably grab an improved maneuver as well so that you could trip the enemies when you retaliate as well.
For pure damage, I have yet to find a spell that rivals Shocking Grasp - even at 10th level, it's still my go-to spell. I second (third? whatever) the desire for other spells that I could choose from without damping my effective damage.
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Frostbite: multiple touch attacks
Snowball: 1d6/level ranged touch
Frigid Touch: 4d6 dmg + stagger opponent
Ghoul Touch: paralyze opponent
Ray of Exhaustion: debuff
Vampiric Touch: steal hp
Enervation: debuff
Calcific Touch: dex damage + petrification
Some spells may require using an Arcana to grab them from the wizard spell list.
Snowball is THE alternative to shocking grasp, really. For the cost of 1 arcana (Close Range), you can save two feats (Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.) Plus, it opens up Rime Spell, making you damage and debuff at the same time, and adds a rider (which admittedly won't do much at higher levels except maybe on casters.) And in my mind, never having to worry about spell resistance ruining your day is just really, really nice.
Snowball is THE alternative to shocking grasp, really. For the cost of 1 arcana (Close Range), you can save two feats (Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.) Plus, it opens up Rime Spell, making you damage and debuff at the same time, and adds a rider (which admittedly won't do much at higher levels except maybe on casters.) And in my mind, never having to worry about spell resistance ruining your day is just really, really nice.
Snowball is good (really solid, and on top of what you said, close range opens up several other useful spells), but I do see two issues...
1) It's still a common immune/resist damage type, esp at levels 10+2) Though it's a YMMV issue, not all groups consider stuff from the various players companions splatbooks as legal, ie it's not treated like core, the apg, or the "ultimate" books. Can't always count on a DM saying yes to it.
Snowball is THE alternative to shocking grasp, really. For the cost of 1 arcana (Close Range), you can save two feats (Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.) Plus, it opens up Rime Spell, making you damage and debuff at the same time, and adds a rider (which admittedly won't do much at higher levels except maybe on casters.) And in my mind, never having to worry about spell resistance ruining your day is just really, really nice.Snowball is good (really solid, and on top of what you said, close range opens up several other useful spells), but I do see two issues...
1) It's still a common immune/resist damage type, esp at levels 10+
2) Though it's a YMMV issue, not all groups consider stuff from the various players companions splatbooks as legal, ie it's not treated like core, the apg, or the "ultimate" books. Can't always count on a DM saying yes to it.
1) This is fact. But honestly, elemental resist problem are a Magus's lot in life... electricity is slightly less resisted, but we were looking for an alternative, after all.
2) Well, again, you can't really don't anything about that... the more you're restricted, the more limited the Magus's already small array of choices gets. Honestly, the only other spell that comes close off the top of my head is Vampiric Touch, and that's only at mid-high levels, and even then, you run the risk of undead ruining your day.
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I'm not terribly familiar with snowball, but it doesn't sound like a spell that produces a ray, which is the only type of spell that Close Range affects:
The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells.
(Bolding mine.)
I considered the possibility that the sentence is just fluff text, but then realized that would mean that the ability to convert them to melee was also fluff text, so the sentence is definitely actual rules text.
Snowball + Close Range seems to not work.
At level 16 you can start with Disintegrate + Close Range for 32d6. Maybe on a Hexcrafter so you can debuff Fort save before the attack? With Spell Perfection used on a free Maximize that is +192 damage, +384 with crit. At level 20 it would be +240, with +480 damage on crit.
I'm not terribly familiar with snowball, but it doesn't sound like a spell that produces a ray, which is the only type of spell that Close Range affects:
The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells.(Bolding mine.)
I considered the possibility that the sentence is just fluff text, but then realized that would mean that the ability to convert them to melee was also fluff text, so the sentence is definitely actual rules text.
I think there's a serious possibility, from the rest of the ability's wording, that the author of Close Range believed that all ranged touch spells were rays.
... is Vampiric Touch... you run the risk of undead ruining your day.
Wasn't it discussed before that, fluff text aside, VT is never actually called out as negative energy, and it DOES work on undead?
I could have swore there was a rules question about that awhile back, and that was where the thread went.
Might be wrong though, it was awhile back, I think over a year ago.
At level 16 you can start with Disintegrate + Close Range for 32d6. Maybe on a Hexcrafter so you can debuff Fort save before the attack? With Spell Perfection used on a free Maximize that is +192 damage, +384 with crit. At level 20 it would be +240, with +480 damage on crit.
Yeah, that was the combo I mentioned in my original post above.
One issue is, high level creatures have such ridiculous Fort saves that, even with Hex powers and Int boosts, it's possible to still only have a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of fully landing the spell, and isn't it also effected by SR?
Otherwise, it's INSANE damage. [but at a level where so are high Str barbarians, paladins smiting, etc, even more so now that they're getting the additional haste/BoF attack and Magus aren't]
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I think there's a serious possibility, from the rest of the ability's wording, that the author of Close Range believed that all ranged touch spells were rays.I'm not terribly familiar with snowball, but it doesn't sound like a spell that produces a ray, which is the only type of spell that Close Range affects:
The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells.(Bolding mine.)
I considered the possibility that the sentence is just fluff text, but then realized that would mean that the ability to convert them to melee was also fluff text, so the sentence is definitely actual rules text.
Possible or not, it isn't what the rules actually say. You can't use Weapon Focus (ray) on it either.
... is Vampiric Touch... you run the risk of undead ruining your day.Wasn't it discussed before that, fluff text aside, VT is never actually called out as negative energy, and it DOES work on undead?
I could have swore there was a rules question about that awhile back, and that was where the thread went.
Might be wrong though, it was awhile back, I think over a year ago.
I did the same double take- Vampiric Touch DOESN'T do negative energy damage. The spell just specifies "living creature touched." Hence, constructs are no fun either.
Yeah, that was the combo I mentioned in my original post above.
Why, so it is. That's what I get for reading this stuff on a busy day at work.
One issue is, high level creatures have such ridiculous Fort saves that, even with Hex powers and Int boosts, it's possible to still only have a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of fully landing the spell, and isn't it also effected by SR?
I think all you can do other than Hex debuffs and buffs to your own casting would be Spell Focus, and Greater, which would be +4 to the DC if you have Spell Perfection, since it doubles any numeric bonuses boosting the spell. You can get +8 to the SR check for Spell Pen and Greater. If this also works on Piercing Spell (it should, right?), that's another +10 on the SR check. If that all stacks, +4 DC on save and +18 to SR check should get the spell through. Of course that is six feats. You could also drop a Bestow Curse on them first to apply a -4 to saves, but that spell has a will save.
I'm really wondering if the Frostbite + Monstrous Physique (STR Ranger's Melee Transmogrofist) build isn't better. Plus you could use Haste since you would be taking full attacks.
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I'm working my PFS Magus toward 3rd level, and I'm planning on her being a maneuver based (trip) character, because I never seem to do things the normal way. I've seen the keen scimitar wielding, dervish dancing, intensified shocking grasp casting Magus. It does insane damage, but that build's already been perfected. So I'm going Kapenia Dancer/bladed scarf wielder. I'll have a couple of shocking grasps for when I need them as well. At 3rd, I plan to take the Wand Wielder arcana, mostly to use with a wand of a True Strike. So True Strike then trip and take my attacks as attacks of opportunity when they stand up. Or, if not close enough in round 1 to full attack, true strike then move up. In the second round trip with the true strike bonus, then shocking grasp while they are prone. I'll had to keep an enlarge person around once I get higher level and start facing Huge enemies, but I think that combo will keep Trip effective even on things with more than two legs. We'll see if I'm right when I get there.
Bladed Dash is great for positioning yourself in combat while still getting an attack off, and Greater Bladed Dash is fun when there are a lot of minions or less powerful creatures. It's a 5th level spell, though, so by the time you get it, one attack against each creature is less impressive. Combine it with a decent Trip build, though, and make everyone prone on the first round of combat. At least the ones that aren't flying by that point.
For something different on the cantrip spamming spell combat side, I took the Two-World Magic trait to pick up Touch of Fatigue. So my spell combat/spell strike attack comes with a free frogurt... I mean debuff. The save DC isn't great, but it's better than spamming Arcane Mark.
