I've searched the forums, and the internet at large, for any sort of whisper of hope for one of my characters. No luck heretofore.
My dilemma: At what point does the spell Black Tentacles relent and stop beating a "creature" to death? Naturally, if a (living/unliving/etc) creature is within the area of the spell, it gets grappled and damaged and so on. If that creature goes unconscious, i.e. limp and lifeless, do the tentacles continue to pummel the body? Taking that one step further, for the duration of the spell, do the tentacles just continue to decimate a corpse every round until they expire? How would that affect an already dead/dying creature just thrown into the tentacles?
Yar!
It could be argued that once the creature is dead, it become an object instead of a creature, in which case it's possible the tentacles will then simply drop and ignore it. The spell does specify it attacks creatures, and makes no mention of objects.
Of course, that also required the creature to be actually dead, not simply unconscious.
:/
On the other hand, the tentacles are simply a magical effect. They have no intellect what-so-ever, simply a constant action of attacking, grabbing, and squishing any creatures it can reach (including the caster of the spell if he wanders too close).
Yup, it's a deadly spell.
*ponders this some more*
~P
My opinion is that:
1) ... the tentacles aren't intelligent.
2) ... they attack "creatures" only.
3) ... an undead is a creature, even though it isn't living anymore.
4) ... hence the argument that an unconscious creature ceases to be a creature isn't valid imho. I'd rule the tentacle would drop the creature only when the spell ends.
It's just my 2 copper pieces...
I think you COULD get a rod of Mercyful spell and make it mercyful black tentacles... :)
Yup. I regrettably killed the party cleric anticlimactically in a game of Infernal Vault a year ago with black tentacles. He heroically got the magus out of the effect by aiding another (after all his channels were spent keeping them both up) and then fell over unconscious. As the magus finished the fight, the cleric was crushed to death on literally the last round of the spell. D'oh!
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I would generally say Black Tentacles won't stop hitting characters until the spell ends.
I could be worse
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We have a sang in St. Louis. "Black Tentacles don't care."
I and a few others I know have died in black tentacles. Not much you can do about it but to prepare your character better vs grapples. The new grapple errata should make it easier for spell casters to get out since you can now cast any spell as long as you make the concentration check.
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I would generally say Black Tentacles won't stop hitting characters until the spell ends.
I could be worse
I love OOTS.
We have a saying in St. Louis. "Black Tentacles don't care."
I and a few others I know have died in black tentacles. Not much you can do about it but to prepare your character better vs grapples. The new grapple errata should make it easier for spell casters to get out since you can now cast any spell as long as you make the concentration check.
Linky to the grapple errata?
If they still have the old concentration check... you're not going anywhere.
Wand of dimension door is the pricy, but reliable, way out.
I also agree with the continues until you are Dead and then will drop you as you are no longer a "creature" but an "object: dead body".
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I think you COULD get a rod of Mercyful spell and make it mercyful black tentacles... :)
The spell don' do any damage, it conjure the tentacles that do the damage. I don't think that merciful will work.
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The original spell, Edward's Black Tentacles attacked everything, even inanimate objects. Even if the current version attacks only creatures it still will not stop until they are dead.
That's what I imagined, and the ruling at the table was leaning towards that interpretation. At least in that case my fresh corpse wasn't being defiled further. Just bum luck, and a little stupidity got me killed (I forgot that I had a cure mod pot in my haversack...)
On the bright side, my AC eventually managed to help the cleric shred the severed-head-witch thing that cast it. Yay!
Thanks for the input!
Edit: Bad grammars...
We have a saying in St. Louis. "Black Tentacles don't care."
I and a few others I know have died in black tentacles. Not much you can do about it but to prepare your character better vs grapples. The new grapple errata should make it easier for spell casters to get out since you can now cast any spell as long as you make the concentration check.
Linky to the grapple errata?
If they still have the old concentration check... you're not going anywhere.
Wand of dimension door is the pricy, but reliable, way out.
It's in the newest errata but has been incorporated into the prd. Notice that it no longer references material components.
Yes the Concentration check is still high (10+ grappler's CMB + spell lvl). Ouch. Doable vs black tentacles. Probably not doable vs a monk.
The errata is on the little note in the Magic chapter on grappling and casting. It was inconsistent with the grapple rules/condition. No change to the DC.
Important to remember the DC is 10 + CMB + Spell level, not CMD+ which is usually higher. Also normal CMB, not grapple CMB for creatures with Grab - that's only to start and maintain.
Yup. I regrettably killed the party cleric anticlimactically in a game of Infernal Vault a year ago with black tentacles. He heroically got the magus out of the effect by aiding another (after all his channels were spent keeping them both up) and then fell over unconscious. As the magus finished the fight, the cleric was crushed to death on literally the last round of the spell. D'oh!That's not anticlimatic, that's a cinematically heroic death.
It would have been absolutely epic if he had actually died a round or two sooner, so that he died on the round he saved the magus and won the fight for the party (it would have been a total loss otherwise, with the rogue suggested and everyone else KOed). As it was, he died after the fight was already over (the magus essentially realized he couldn't survive through the tentacles to pour a potion down the cleric's throat, so he said "Sorry" and hoped to wait it out. Sadly, the last round was enough to fully kill the cleric. So the anticlimax was the time they spent trying to figure out if they could save him and then giving up before he died; I guess my tendency to summarize it more epically shone through there!
The spell says, "Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage."
Not non-lethal damage.
I agree with everyone else here that there is no hope for your PC and there are no RAW to support keeping it alive, on the contrary the RAW support that the spell continues to grapple/hold and squeeze (continuing lethal damage) you through the duration of the spell. Two options: 1) Roll up a new PC, 2) Plead with your friends to try to bring your PC back to life.
The original spell, Edward's Black Tentacles attacked everything, even inanimate objects. Even if the current version attacks only creatures it still will not stop until they are dead.
Just a little correction to this, sorry my OCD kicking in... The spell was called Evard's Black Tentacles.
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I think you COULD get a rod of Mercyful spell and make it mercyful black tentacles... :)
Be careful, even merciful black tentacles can quickly kill someone once the non-lethal damage rolls over into lethal.
Thematically it seems like it would be a good idea to use against a bunch of weaker targets, but the spell is so single-minded that its ability to be used to subdue without killing is very target dependent.
The spell says, "Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage."
Not non-lethal damage.I said it was possible to view it that way. IF you view it as a creature or created object making a grapple check, then they do not have to specify it, since it would be nonlethal damage unless there was Constriction or Improved Unarmed Strike involved. If it's ruled as being damage done from a grapple, then it is not required to be listed as nonlethal, anymore than nonlethal grapple damage is typically listed in any creature or animated object's stat block.
I am trying to give a DM a reasonable way to view the spell which might make its use less devastating without requiring a massive houserule and rewrite or outright banning. This means that at least the conjured tentacles won't immediately murder characters dropped unconscious in their area. They would have to accrue twice as much damage as currently required for death, but without effectively reducing the power of the spell (except against creatures immune to nonlethal damage)
It is a (creation) spell, it creates an object that then makes an attack, which is a specific type of attack known as a grapple check, which then inflicts damage which is non-lethal unless it says otherwise. I'm not saying it's what was intended or not, only that with a slight open-mindedness and knowledge of how grapple works, it's not hard to understand. It's not really different from summoning a giant squid or octopus that doesn't move from its place and doesn't have Constrict.
You don't have to agree with it, but that doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable suggestion, which I made quite clear was all it was.
From the grapple section: "Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal."
Even if you don't have IUS, if you grapple someone, you can chose to deal lethal or non-lethal damage even if you don't have IUS.
That said, I would say a reasonable house-rule, is that the caster can choose at time of casting whether the tentacles do lethal or non-lethal damage. Default assumption is lethal.
That said, I would say a reasonable house-rule, is that the caster can choose at time of casting whether the tentacles do lethal or non-lethal damage. Default assumption is lethal.That's really a cheat against players who take the effort to learn the Merciful Spell feat. IF I were going to addd that to the spell, I'd bump it up a level at least, more likely two.
I shouldn't think so. Merciful Spell should be useful will all sorts of spells that normally deal damage whether or not the GM interpreted black tentacles as being able to deal non-lethal damage based on a decision made at casting time.
That said, I would say a reasonable house-rule, is that the caster can choose at time of casting whether the tentacles do lethal or non-lethal damage. Default assumption is lethal.That's really a cheat against players who take the effort to learn the Merciful Spell feat. IF I were going to addd that to the spell, I'd bump it up a level at least, more likely two.
The precedent is in the grapple rules, that when grappling for damage, you can decide lethal or non-lethal damage. The house-rule is allowing the caster to "tell" the tentacles which one to do on casting.
As for cheating players who took merciful? There are plenty of spells which don't do damage and can incapacitate enemies. Sleep, color spray, etc. And, even doing non-lethal damage, the tentacles still have a pretty good chance of killing people.
I really don't believe this is open for interpretation or house rules when placed in THIS section (Rules Questions) of the forums. If some people want to say things like what @Pizza Lord is saying and giving players a choice whether or not it's going to be lethal or nonlethal thereby negating the Merciful Spell Feat as @LazarX said, that's the definition of a house-rule.
The spell RAW doesn't allow for the choosing of nonlethal damage unless someone takes the Merciful Spell feat and ALTERS the lethal damage of the Black Tentacles to nonlethal. Just because someone goes unconscious doesn't mean that the tentacles releases the grip, it continues to inflict the damage as the unconscious character cannot even try to get out of the grapple anymore. The purpose of most spells is to KILL the target(s). This is a lethal spell as is and RAW. Period, end of argument.
The grapple precedent is not applicable here as Black Tentacles is a fire and forget spell, there is no more directing it's effects than you would a cloudkill. In fact, the caster himself can be damaged or killed by his own spell if he's thrown into it.
Color Spray and Sleep are not relevant to these discussions as unlike Tentacles, they're not desginged as killing spells. Their capabilities are factored into their design and level.
Exactly. This is an unthinking summoned spell that once it's out of the bag is unable to controlled. The only way to control the grapple lethal/nonlethal damage of this spell is to use the metamagic of Merciful prior to casting, then all of its damage is converted to nonlethal.
The problem I have is that people want so hard to believe something that they lie to themselves and try to convince others that it's true, but in this case there can be no argument citing grappling rules that are talking about an intelligent creature purposely holding back and doing nonlethal damage.
I really don't believe this is open for interpretation or house rules when placed in THIS section (Rules Questions) of the forums. If some people want to say things like what @Pizza Lord is saying and giving players a choice whether or not it's going to be lethal or nonlethal thereby negating the Merciful Spell Feat as @LazarX said, that's the definition of a house-rule.
The spell RAW doesn't allow for the choosing of nonlethal damage unless someone takes the Merciful Spell feat and ALTERS the lethal damage of the Black Tentacles to nonlethal. Just because someone goes unconscious doesn't mean that the tentacles releases the grip, it continues to inflict the damage as the unconscious character cannot even try to get out of the grapple anymore. The purpose of most spells is to KILL the target(s). This is a lethal spell as is and RAW. Period, end of argument.
That depends on how you interpret the spell descriptions. Are they exhaustive in what they cover and in what they imply, or is it possible to read other implications out of what the descriptions say? Are they restrictive or permissive?
Since the spell description says nothing about lethal or non-lethal damage, I don't see any reason why the caster couldn't choose a non-lethal option - a standard option for grappling. That said, without any specification, most references to dealing damage are for lethal damage so I can understand why lethal damage would be a default mode.
I really don't believe this is open for interpretation or house rules when placed in THIS section (Rules Questions) of the forums. If some people want to say things like what @Pizza Lord is saying and giving players a choice whether or not it's going to be lethal or nonlethal thereby negating the Merciful Spell Feat as @LazarX said, that's the definition of a house-rule.
The spell RAW doesn't allow for the choosing of nonlethal damage unless someone takes the Merciful Spell feat and ALTERS the lethal damage of the Black Tentacles to nonlethal. Just because someone goes unconscious doesn't mean that the tentacles releases the grip, it continues to inflict the damage as the unconscious character cannot even try to get out of the grapple anymore. The purpose of most spells is to KILL the target(s). This is a lethal spell as is and RAW. Period, end of argument.
That depends on how you interpret the spell descriptions. Are they exhaustive in what they cover and in what they imply, or is it possible to read other implications out of what the descriptions say? Are they restrictive or permissive?
Since the spell description says nothing about lethal or non-lethal damage, I don't see any reason why the caster couldn't choose a non-lethal option - a standard option for grappling. That said, without any specification, most references to dealing damage are for lethal damage so I can understand why lethal damage would be a default mode.
Wrong. This is not open to "interpretation" or RAI. This spell does not say anywhere in any description that it is nonlethal damage, quite the opposite. It says 1d6+4 points of damage. It doesn't say 1d6+4 points of NONLETHAL damage nor does it say that you can choose to have it do nonlethal. That is the point of Merciful. You can choose to ALTER spells that normally do lethal into doing nonlethal. Pretty dang simple and RAW.
The standard option for grappling isn't in play here unless the merciful metamagic feat is used.
That said, I would say a reasonable house-rule, is that the caster can choose at time of casting whether the tentacles do lethal or non-lethal damage. Default assumption is lethal.That's really a cheat against players who take the effort to learn the Merciful Spell feat. IF I were going to addd that to the spell, I'd bump it up a level at least, more likely two.The precedent is in the grapple rules, that when grappling for damage, you can decide lethal or non-lethal damage. The is allowing the caster to "tell" the tentacles which one to do on casting.
As for cheating players who took merciful? There are plenty of spells which don't do damage and can incapacitate enemies. Sleep, color spray, etc. And, even doing non-lethal damage, the tentacles still have a pretty good chance of killing people.
The grapple precedent is not applicable here as Black Tentacles is a fire and forget spell, there is no more directing it's effects than you would a cloudkill. In fact, the caster himself can be damaged or killed by his own spell if he's thrown into it.
Color Spray and Sleep are not relevant to these discussions as unlike Tentacles, they're not desginged as killing spells. Their capabilities are factored into their design and level.
Apparently both you and ub3rn3rd missed that I was quite clear in that my house-rule would be allowing a caster to chose lethal/non-lethal damage. I didn't suggest otherwise.
That said, yes, RAW tentacles do lethal damage, always, unless cast using the merciful metamagic feat.
Is that clear enough?
Wrong. This is not open to "interpretation" or RAI. This spell does not say anywhere in any description that it is nonlethal damage, quite the opposite. It says 1d6+4 points of damage. It doesn't say 1d6+4 points of NONLETHAL damage nor does it say that you can choose to have it do nonlethal. That is the point of Merciful. You can choose to ALTER spells that normally do lethal into doing nonlethal. Pretty dang simple and RAW.The standard option for grappling isn't in play here unless the merciful metamagic feat is used.
Most spells also don't do damage by grappling, which adds an additional texture into the situation. Like I said, it depends on how restrictive you assume spell descriptions are. Could the fact that the tentacles are grappling introduce the non-lethal damage option? In a restrictive mode, as you clearly exhibit, no. But for a more permissive GM, maybe.
Plus it opens up a lot of interesting possibilities for black tentacles without leading to significant balance issues. And that's part of the fun of a tabletop role playing game, seeing what interesting ideas the players come up with and then adjudicating fairly.
Apparently both you and ub3rn3rd missed that I was quite clear in that my house-rule would be allowing a caster to chose lethal/non-lethal damage. I didn't suggest otherwise.
That said, yes, RAW tentacles do lethal damage, always, unless cast using the merciful metamagic feat.
Is that clear enough?
I didn't miss anything @Tarantula, but others are saying that they view it as being up for interpretation whereas I'm simply trying to point out that RAW this is lethal unless the Merciful feat is applied.
I also pointed out in an earlier post that House-Rules shouldn't play any part in this thread discussion if we are talking Rule Questions (meaning RAW) and whether or not this is lethal or nonlethal.
We can always go back to Rule 0 as a GM and do whatever we like in determining whether or not we'd allow this to be changed.
Most spells also don't do damage by grappling, which adds an additional texture into the situation. Like I said, it depends on how restrictive you assume spell descriptions are. Could the fact that the tentacles are grappling introduce the non-lethal damage option? In a restrictive mode, as you clearly exhibit, no. But for a more permissive GM, maybe.
Just because a spell does grappling damage doesn't mean anything here.
1) All spells are lethal damaging unless they specifically state that they are not.
2) Spells lethal damage can be altered via a FEAT - Merciful Spell - to nonlethal, as per RAW and what the feat says.
3) This has nothing to do with restrictive or permissive in a RAW setting. If the GM wants to HOUSE-RULE something, that is their prerogative and up to them, but if they go by RAW then this spell is lethal.
4) I feel that any House-Rules discussion should be moved over to a House-Rule thread rather than a RAW thread...
Plus it opens up a lot of interesting possibilities for black tentacles without leading to significant balance issues. And that's part of the fun of a tabletop role playing game, seeing what interesting ideas the players come up with and then adjudicating fairly.
I'm all for playing with house-rules, but I don't see any point in making this a house-rule for allowing casters to determine lethal/nonlethal damage. There is a simple feat that the caster can take to do this. Otherwise keep it simple and don't read too much into the description of the spell is all I say.
Most spells also don't do damage by grappling, which adds an additional texture into the situation. Like I said, it depends on how restrictive you assume spell descriptions are. Could the fact that the tentacles are grappling introduce the non-lethal damage option? In a restrictive mode, as you clearly exhibit, no. But for a more permissive GM, maybe.Just because a spell does grappling damage doesn't mean anything here.
Grappling to deal damage states explicitly that the damage can be lethal or non-lethal. So it does bear some weight.
It's all sort of moot.
So far as I know, you cannot usefully put Merciful metamagic on a spell that summons monsters to have them deal non-lethal damage. Black Tentacles is a conjuration spell. The effect of the spell is not the damage, and any damage is not primarily caused by the spell. The effect is the tentacles, which cause damage (a secondary effect) to those they manage to successfully grapple.
As the caster cannot direct the tentacles even to leave the caster alone, and there is no indication whatsoever in the wording of the spell that indicates any level of control to cause them to do anything beyond mindlessly attacking, I'd say that any change would have to be either houseruled in for anyone casting the official spell or be the result of a homebrewed variant of the spell created by someone within the campaign setting. Either way, that's (perfectly legitimate) homebrew, not official RAW or even RAI.
Grappling to deal damage states explicitly that the damage can be lethal or non-lethal. So it does bear some weight.allowing the caster this option implies the tentacles are not mindless and are capable of following direction. furthermore it implicitly says that the caster is capable of directing them...
Unseen servant is a conjuration(creation) spell which conjures an explicitly mindless force. Yet is capable of following instruction.
Again, RAW tentacles do lethal damage.
Still, it isn't crazy to house-rule that the caster can decide for them to do non-lethal without needing merciful spell.
Grappling to deal damage states explicitly that the damage can be lethal or non-lethal. So it does bear some weight.Most spells also don't do damage by grappling, which adds an additional texture into the situation. Like I said, it depends on how restrictive you assume spell descriptions are. Could the fact that the tentacles are grappling introduce the non-lethal damage option? In a restrictive mode, as you clearly exhibit, no. But for a more permissive GM, maybe.Just because a spell does grappling damage doesn't mean anything here.
Not really. These are two different things. The Black Tentacles is a spell, not a person. It cannot choose to do nonlethal damage. The only way this can happen if we are going RAW (which this thread is), is if the caster took the Merciful Spell feat and specifically changed the damage type from lethal to nonlethal, the caster NEEDS to have this metamagic by RAW to change the damage type.
You really gotta get the grapple rules out of the conversation as this isn't part of them.