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I am new to Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society. I am working on finalizing my Bard now that he is level 2. I have read Treantmonk's guide and a lot of other threads about bards and PFS builds in general, but I still have some questions. My goal for my bard is to be support in 2 ways. First with songs/spells and second with skills.
After that I am trying to figure a good balance of combat vs. survival. To much focus on combat and I will be dead. To much focus on survival and I am not doing any damage when I am not casting, just sitting there out of danger or swinging and missing.
I am playing a Half-Elf because they lean towards Chaotic Good (if I recall correctly) similar to the way I see myself role playing a bard. I am taking Flagbearer as my first feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/flagbearer-local). Below are the stats I have come up with.
Str 13
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Char 16
Charisma at 16 for extra spells and help for face skills. I also am planning on adding my stat points to that attribute as I level.
I did 14 Int for additional skills and the bonuses to them.
Wisdom at 10, not sure if I should switch it with Dex and make it 12. I am not sure if I am open to going lower than 10 for RP reasons.
After reading threads about PFS builds, I have read that 14 con is a minimum, or I will be to squishy and would drag the group down because they will either waste actions healing me or I am dead and they are short a member. I don't plan on being to close to front lines.
Would having 13 str and 12 dex even have a noticeable benefit? I know the extra str helps with weight limit, but should these to other stats?
I plan on using the flag bearer trait (it compliments Inspire Courage) so I couldn't use a bow. I also didn't really want to use a bow either. I do have a sling though, is that one handed?. So flag in one hand and the other hand I have a whip? Will that 13 str and 12 Dex help that much? Or help me be a little safer?
Or if I move some out of Con or int and put it in Str and/or Dex and pick a weapon specialization feat, could I potentially have decent damage output when I am not casting at the cost of being more squishy and having less face skills not in combat? Is whip really the only weapon that would help me contribute to the group?
I am still learning and new, but I want to make sure I am carrying my weight and not hindering a group, I appreciate any suggestions and advice. Please let me know if you need additional information.
Flagbearer would not be a very good choice for your character I'm afraid.
A morale bonus represents the effects of greater hope, courage, and determination (or hopelessness, cowardice, and despair in the case of a morale penalty). Multiple morale bonuses on the same character do not stack. Only the highest morale bonus applies. Non-intelligent creatures (creatures with an Intelligence of 0 or no Intelligence at all) cannot benefit from morale bonuses.
Emphasis mine.
Your Inspire Courage is Morale and won't work with your flag, you are essentially wasting a feat. Extra Performance and Lingering Performance are basically staple feats for any bard who plans on using his bardic music.
As for the stats, I find it is a lot better to specialize than generalize because you will be very mediocre at everything you do, to a fault. Just being able to do things won't matter if you can never succeed at them, which defeats the purpose of even being able to do those things. Buying a 13 STR I feel is wasted potential considering you plan on being a supporter bard. Your DEX could use a lot more love considering you can't wear anything better than light armor. You might even find it worth it to dump STR a little bit or leave it at 10, those extra points let you get DEX to at least a 14. Your CHA should be higher, you should want an unbuffed 18 by level 4, buying a 15 and racial +2 to 17 is usually solid for MAD classes. 20-24 is a very important range of CHA scores because that is where you get a second bonus lvl 1, 2, and 3 spell per day, which can mean an extra buff or heal that will be a lot more useful to the team than being able to hit for dice +1 damage with a light weapon one handed. You already get 6 skills/level, you shouldn't really need more than 7 or 8 with favored class.
Later on, Weapon Finesse and an Agile Weapon can help your character not be worthless in combat, if you ever actually participate in physical combat (which you shouldn't). And because you shouldn't, you also don't have to buy such a large CON score. Your fellow players will appreciate you more if you build yourself to be more useful to a team, rather than be able to do a bunch of stuff by yourself.
Suggested point buy:
(-1)9 STR
(10)16 DEX
(2)12 CON
(2)12 INT
(0)10 WIS
(7)15 CHA +2 racial = 17
A shortbow or crossbow will be your weapon of choice, and eventually you probably want to get an Agile rapier.
This class is very spread out, and that is fine.
You speak about a lot of Roleplay reasons why you picked what you did. So I would strongly suggest to anyoneelse thinking of giving character advice is that this person has a specific idea and will ignore any advice outside of that
Now to Feend. To make yoru character carry his/her weight you will need to be very clever. You can do a lot of things, but nyo many of them well. A min/maxed wizard will make your knowledge checks worthless and trump your spell casting. A min/maxed sorcerer can out face you and cast as well. Any decent martial class will trump you in combat as well.
This does not mean you will can not do well. It just means everything you are trying to do others will have an easier time doing better than you. So like scrooge mcduck work smarter not harder. Be smart and use you abilities creatively. You are nto against the DM, but the auther of the mod. So out think that guy. This will make you the MVP of the table by just helping out.
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Have you played at level 2 yet?
You must have a free hand to cast. So if you have the flag and a weapon out. You can not cast. I will recommend you take Quick Draw. So you can keep the flag out, and cast. Then have a weapon in handed when you need it.
From where you are now feet's I suggest.
Improved Initiative, Lingering Performance, Discordant Voice. That leaves 2 feet slots still open. This is just off the top of my head, and with how your bard is built now.
I will recommend a rebuild from the start. For this character if you have not played them at 2nd level. So you can pick a direction you want to go. Support, and skill's are a given for Bard. Your current lay out dose not let you focus on your primary combat focus. Casting, or Combat. You can pick either of the two and make a good bard. With out a focus from the start it will be very hard to make up the difference later. In terms of feet's, and spell selection.
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Your Inspire Courage is Morale and won't work with your flag, you are essentially wasting a feat. Extra Performance and Lingering Performance are basically staple feats for any bard who plans on using his bardic music.
Flagbearer = Morale
Inspire Courage = CompetenceThey do stack.
Edit:
And a few more things people get wrong when playing a bard.
Must have one of the two or both.
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and many such performances are language dependent.
If a bardic performance has a visual component, the targets must have line of sight to the bard for the performance to have any effect.
Inspire Courage (Su): An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.
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Your Inspire Courage is Morale and won't work with your flag, you are essentially wasting a feat. Extra Performance and Lingering Performance are basically staple feats for any bard who plans on using his bardic music.
I totally missed that. Thank you. That would have really messed me up.
Thanks for the suggested build for stats, I think I will use that. And not carrying a flag, I can use a bow. Thanks for the advice.
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This class is very spread out, and that is fine.
You speak about a lot of Roleplay reasons why you picked what you did. So I would strongly suggest to anyoneelse thinking of giving character advice is that this person has a specific idea and will ignore any advice outside of that
Thank you for putting that out there. I probably should have not said so much about RP, I haven't played many society games, I don't have a real feel the types of people that play. I guess I would rather get in line with min/maxing and keep up than being spread out and filling my role because I don't have the skills.
I can still play clever.
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Have you played at level 2 yet?
You must have a free hand to cast. So if you have the flag and a weapon out. You can not cast. I will recommend you take Quick Draw. So you can keep the flag out, and cast. Then have a weapon in handed when you need it.
From where you are now feet's I suggest.
Improved Initiative, Lingering Performance, Discordant Voice. That leaves 2 feet slots still open. This is just off the top of my head, and with how your bard is built now.I will recommend a rebuild from the start. For this character if you have not played them at 2nd level. So you can pick a direction you want to go. Support, and skill's are a given for Bard. Your current lay out dose not let you focus on your primary combat focus. Casting, or Combat. You can pick either of the two and make a good bard. With out a focus from the start it will be very hard to make up the difference later. In terms of feet's, and spell selection.
Thank you for the response. I have not played this character at level 2. Was trying to finalize him before he is locked in.
If I focus only on casting what feats would you suggest? Other build advice suggestions for a casting bard?
Should I play Human for the extra feat?
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Your Inspire Courage is Morale and won't work with your flag, you are essentially wasting a feat. Extra Performance and Lingering Performance are basically staple feats for any bard who plans on using his bardic music.I totally missed that. Thank you. That would have really messed me up.
Thanks for the suggested build for stats, I think I will use that. And not carrying a flag, I can use a bow. Thanks for the advice.
You might also like Treantmonk's Pathfinder Guide to Bards.
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Your Inspire Courage is Morale and won't work with your flag, you are essentially wasting a feat. Extra Performance and Lingering Performance are basically staple feats for any bard who plans on using his bardic music.Flagbearer = Morale
Inspire Courage = Competence
They do stack.
If these stack, is it still worth getting this feat?
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I chose Human for the skill point. That is really more important then the feet for some bard builds.
My bard is rocking.
Skill Points : Base 6 + Human 1 + Int Mod 1 + Favored Class 1 = 9 skill ranks per level.
For casting bard and going half elf.
Ability Score
Str 8
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 20
Skill points: Base 6 + Int Mod 1 + Favored Class 1 = 8 skill ranks per level.
Feet's:
Half Elf : Skill Focus : Use Magic Device
1: Flagbearer
3: Spell Focus : Enchantment
5: Greater Spell Focus : Enchantment
7: Improved Initiative
9: Spell Penetration
11: Greater Spell Penetration
Spell's : You should have a combination of attack, and buffing spells. More attack spells then buffing. One or two good buffing spells per level is more then enough for a casting bard.
1st level suggestions
Compel Hostility (Makes your enemy work for you. Only one round but it's a first level spell want more do you want.)
Cure Light Wounds (You want the ability to cast at least one cure spell. This should be all you need.)
Ear-Piercing Scream (This is a caster killing spell. It's a fort save but if failed there daze unable to cast for that round.)
Hideous Laughter ( This is for combat characters like fighter, barbarian, ranger, rogue. It takes them out of combat for one round per level.)
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I think that is a powerful build Calagner has.
I would trade the favored class for the HP, for survivability. But that is slight.
Controlling monsters is the most powerful thing you can do.
I think I would add charm person in the list of spells. It works with spell focus and is great before comabt or to convince people to help you. Compel Hostility is one round a level and amkes them go after you that can hit you. I think that is not a spell for this build and calagnar may have picked the wrong spell.
The others are great though. Hideous laughter rocks my fav bard spell.
Also look into Eldritch Heritage for your spell focus. So maybe someone can find a great level 1 bloodline you might want. You already get the skills focus for free.
Eldritch Heritage
You are descended from a long line of sorcerers, and some portion of their power flows in your veins.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with the class skill of bloodline selected for this feat (see below), character level 3rd.
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
Thats what I was guessing you were thinking of, but it is a divine spell so I did not add it.
I think at level 5 I would dump the great spell focus and get elder heretiage arcane and get a familair.
You would need skill focus in ANY knowledge skill instead of UMD. But a greensting scorpion gives you +4 inaitive(thats the Improved Initiative), alertness(thats another feat), a creature that coudl assist you in your skills since they have as many ranks as you do, and by that level the ability to cast spell from it.
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Thats what I was guessing you were thinking of, but it is a divine spell so I did not add it.
I think at level 5 I would dump the great spell focus and get elder heretiage arcane and get a familair.
You would need skill focus in ANY knowledge skill instead of UMD. But a greensting scorpion gives you +4 inaitive(thats the Improved Initiative), alertness(thats another feat), a creature that coudl assist you in your skills since they have as many ranks as you do, and by that level the ability to cast spell from it.
Thanks Fin. If I did something like this, what would you get for the first 5 feat?
Alternate Build: The Melee Bard
S: 14 D: 16 C: 13 I: 12 W: 10 Ch: 16 (20 pt, Aasimar blood (name?) that is +2 CHA/+2 DEX)
Archetype: Arcane Duelist
Favored Class Bonus: Choose one bardic performance; treat the bard as +1/2 level higher when determining the effects of that performance.
This will net you a higher Inspire Courage effect at earlier levels.
Feat: Flag Bearer (1st), Two Weapon Fighting (3rd), Step Up (5th)
Strategy: Put your flag on a quarterstaff and use the quarterstaff as your weapon. At 5th level, turn the quarterstaff into your arcane bond (via Arcane Duelist archetype).
1st level: Flag Bearer (+1/+1), Arcane Strike(+0/+1), Inspire Courage (+1/+1)
+5 to hit with MW/MW Quarterstaff for 1d6+6 damage
4th level: Flag Bearer (+0/+1), Arcane Strike(+0/+1), Inspire Courage (+2/+2), Heroism (+2/+0)
+8/+8 to hit with +1/MW Quarterstaff for 1d6+7/1d6+5 damage
5th level: Flag Bearer (+0/+1), Arcane Strike(+0/+2), Inspire Courage (+2/+2), Heroism (+2/+0)
+8/+8 to hit with +1/+1 Quarterstaff for 1d6+8/1d6+7 damage
7th level: Flag Bearer (+0/+1), Arcane Strike(+0/+2), Inspire Courage (+2/+2), Heroism (+2/+0), Good Hope (+2/+2)
+13/+13 to hit with +2/+2 Quarterstaff for 1d6+11/1d6+10 damage
8th level: Flag Bearer (+0/+1), Arcane Strike(+0/+2), Inspire Courage (+3/+3), Heroism (+2/+0), Good Hope (+2/+2)
+15/+15/+10 to hit with +2/+2 Quarterstaff for 1d6+12/1d6+11/1d6+12 damage
Key Spells:
2nd: Heroism (lasts 10 minutes per level)
3rd: Good Hope (lasts 1 round per level)Party Buffs By Level (1 round buff max):
1st: +2/+2 from Inspire Courage and Flag Bearer
4th: +3/+3 from Inspire Courage and Flag Bearer
7th: +5/+5 from Inspire Courage, Flag Bearer, and Good Hope
8th: +6/+6 from Inspire Courage, Flag Bearer, and Good Hope
12th: +7/+7 from Inspire Courage, Flag Bearer, and Good HopeWith those kind of buffs, you will not be combat dead weight in any party configuration. Your melee damage will be okay, and you can become a real pain for...
Muse Touched, they are literally designed to be bards.
And don't listen to calagnar, extra rounds of performance is amazing.More alternate options include making halfling dervishes, and just using battle dance for yourself, but that detracts from your original concept.
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I have a high level bard in PFSP. That is built nothing like this. After level 5 I have never run out of rounds per day of performance. So at low level there good but after you get to 10-15 rounds per day. That's all you will ever use or close to. One time and one time only have I used more then 20.
I am a big fan of control Feend
I would have a 20 cha bard.
My feats would be
spell focus enchant
greater spell focus enchant(or the bouncing metmagic feat)
greater eldritch heritage
Races, anyhting that can give you a +2 to cha. A kitsune woul dbe great as their favored class raises the DC 1/4 a point. so in four levels a free feat worth.
The idea is that if you give allies a boost to attack and damage is nbice. But if one spell can take an opponenet out of combat is much better. IE the damage bonus you give may not be enough to one hit the bad guy, but you spell bypasses all HP needed to drop them.
ohh yes, that is sorcerer. thanks for correcting me. They do it better. But either way. Your DCs win or lose for you. So jack them as much as possible.
Jame's is a great build. I use misforntue with 3 of my pfs characters. I think I would pick burned limbs over lame as I prefer movement to using weapons with a pirmary caster.
I would also spend the extra to start with a 20 cha. The reason being is by level 8 you could put bot your points in it and get the base to 22. Then with other benefits get that up 28.
As a bard and oracle your base will save is already +4 at. 14 to wisdom I would drop to raise that cha.
Ehh. If find if my job is to cast spells, thats what I do. Knocking someone out with hideous laughter or buffing the teammate for minutes is much more valuable then aiding someone one time with a single attack or defense(keep in mind your str hurts this and you bab from multi classing). Plus being in position to to aide means the monster can pound you. So the huge disadvantage of helping VS the huge other benefits you could give for not in combat I do not think make it viable.
The breaker curse would be great, IF wands did not cost twice as much to use. Haunted would slow you down dramatically to change things up. Tongues is alright, amazing if you have a team that can speak with you. Burned limbs makes attacking not worth it, but as a primary that does not attack it is awesome. Lame I think is too painfull, as positioning will slow you down(not as much as huanted though). It to me seems like dwarfing yourself. Clouded vision sucks as a primary caster as things will be out of your range to target. Deaf is cool, but can limit you. Wasting I think is not good, as it makes your primary skill of being the face less usefull. Wolf face is garbage without deaf for a caster. legalistic is awesome, bonus to that faction mission.
Plus you could get mule strap cords for weight issues too.
Helpful for aid another is still awesome since you can do it with skill checks too.
Another thing I though of is. He could save a feat and buy a ring of revelation as well.
Not a compliment just the truth.
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15/14/14/14/12/07 array is a bard's 20pt friend.
Wisdom is your dump stat; and STR second least-important.
I am new to Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society.
First rule: Until you're more experience, stay away from weird-ass non-iconic multiclass headache builds which beg the GM to throw the nastiest monster at you every encounter.
Second rule: don't even think about not having 14s in DEX and CON in PFS until you have a lot of experience playing modules with total strangers at tables where you've never met the GM before.
Third rule: get used to constantly reminding allies about their bardsong bonuses. Make a dealy-bopper table ornament with "+1" on it; and keep your ear cocked every time they're announcing their damage. (Welcome to being a bard.)
Flagbearer feat: Seems powerful, but in PFS a table judge is within his rights to assert it only applies to members of your own faction. (Moral bonuses are also cheap to acquire as you level.) Precludes archery.
Half-elf (no racial archetype)
STR:12
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:07
CHA+15(17)
Build more or less along the lines of Treatmonk's archer-bard, but don't be obsessed with archery feats (there are many good bard feats in the newer books). (Avoid his controller bard, as big monsters will just stuff you down their throats at higher level. Use spells, not whip/CMD, to control; that stuff will only work on medium targets at lower level in PFS.)
Alignment: lawful good
Traits: Elven Reflexes, Armor Expert
Faction: Andoran or Silver Crusade
01 paladin1 [divine hunter:Precise Shot], Improved Initiative
02 bard1
03 paladin2 [Divine Grace], FEAT
You have all martial weapon proficiencies and incredible saves. You are INIT+8. You have Swim and Climb on your class skill lists (put a point in each -- trust me). Keep Escape Artist maxed (to escape grapples).
04 (rest bard)
Spells: Swift Invisibility is every PFS bard's get-out-death-free card.
Sir thugs alot.
Starting at level 1 and building from there. If he plays 3 times as a level 1 he will learn it and then get a little more at level 2 and learn that.
As for stats. The only stat I would ever say to not dump is Con. Saying it needs to be at 14 is silly. Saying if you have less than X constitution then act accordingly. I think saying you always need a 14 dex is honestly kinda dumb to put it nicely. A bard is not going to win that AC race, plus a revleation raises the AC and relfex to +5(use cha instead of dex) so it would make the dex a huge waste.
Feend . Please read the reasons why I say Sir thugs alot ideas are not good before making a judgement yourself. Also Me and James agree that is the best type of build. The debate we are having is slight differences of what is better and both of the choices are definately solid. Your play style would honestly mean what one is better for you.
James.
I think you ideas are great although with my style of play I am very cautious so I do not like getting into enemies faces to aid if I have a caster. So your ideas are very solid, just not a style I would suggest for a caster with a style similar to mine. Granted the whip will help, but then you need to work with cover and that garbage. A 9 is 45% of the time. So a 45% chance to give a one time +4 is meh. Greasing the enemies weapon is more valuable. I think a wand of curelight for 2 prestige points earn after one good scenario would even be better healing the front line fighter each round. Again these are preferences for play style and not saying your choices are wrong.
I think I would use a ring of revelation for the lore keeper if I wanted that revelation. Considering it only raises the bonuses the difference between cha and int and they are both positive. The spell focuses I think are more important than that. A wand of persistence would be one of the first things I buy. Along with a headband of cha. Probably the headband first since the extra DC, skill bumps, and spells do more then 3 uses of a rod a day.
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Feend . Please read the reasons why I say Sir thugs alot ideas are not good before making a judgement yourself. Also Me and James agree that is the best type of build.
You seem to be forgetting the part where the OP writes: "new to Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society;" and you're recommending a complicated oracle build of the sort which many table judges will be scratching their head over while starring at the character sheet (i.e. that you understand it is irrelevant). STR7/DEX7 and bard[archivist] forfeiting Inspire Courage? Let's stand in melee waving a flag in plain sight (Flagbearer, making up for loss of Inspire, and winking out when you go Invisible to save your ass, which will be constantly) while doling out Aid Another+4s? (I should link this in the "Dead Weight" thread.)
Sidestep Secret...sounds awesome; so let's dump physical stats to hell.... OK; what about CMD? That's conspicuously absent from the Sidestep Secret munchkin-trap goody list, as is applicability to ranged attacks. (IOW, this 7/7 concept has zero melee or ranged utility (and is simply dead-meat if it needs to make a DC10 let alone 15 Acrobatics, Climb or Swim check), has a limited amount of spellcasting at low level, faces mods which may have three or even more encounters in one day -- and can't even lob a Tanglefoot bag reliably (one of those roles out-of-gas casters are normally relied upon to do).
...I have no idea what level he has to be to start cancelling out all that horrific baggage, but I'll assert that playing him (as opposed to racking up GM credits) from 1st will be sheer bloody misery.
Another thing I though of is. He could save a feat and buy a ring of revelation as well.
And a 10,000gp magic item is available for purchase exactly when in PFS? Check your Prestige table; because I'm just gonna guess that not too many Rings of Revelation will be appearing on Tier-4 ARs. (Answer: you'll need 27 fame points.)
* * *
It's also a disservice to maintain than a pally2/bardX archer build is "not good"; I've played 'em, and it's an extremely synergistic combination. Skills, saves, Inspire, archery, melee...very flexible response to any situation. (Bard4/palX is equally good: fewer spells/higher damage.)
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Half-elf (no racial archetype)
STR:12
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:07
CHA+15(17)Alignment: lawful good
Traits: Elven Reflexes, Armor Expert
Faction: Andoran or Silver Crusade01 paladin1 [divine hunter:Precise Shot], Improved Initiative
02 bard1
03 paladin2 [Divine Grace], FEAT
Plugging some numbers at 3rd:
Attack bonus: 2[BAB]+(1[STR] or +2[DEX] +1[MW]+1[Insp] = +5 melee or +6 ranged
Saves: Fort +7, Refl +6, Will +5
CMD: 10+BAB+STR+DEX = 15
AC in MW chainshirt + buckler: 17
Skills: +9 for single rank-taken DEX, INT and CHA skills, +8 for STR (*cough* Swim), not counting masterwork tool bonuses or armor check penalties. Diplomacy should be +11 without doodads.
At 4th, saves advance +1/+2/+2 with bard2 & CHA>16; Diplo goes to +13. Smite bonus to attack, AC and CMD becomes +3.
Sir thugsalot you seem new to PFS. Your build looks weak to me. Swimming does nto happen often so why mention it? My level 3s have +11 or more in their skills I have them set for. You Ac is mediorce, your save are impresiive but a multi-classed paladine should be. You attack bonus is lowish. Your damage is sad except your once a day smite evil then it is average. Yay you built a jack of all trades that is good at saves but average to low at everything else!!!(read above for my comments on that)
My advice was never get near enemies with jame's build. Anyways if the enemy wants to grapple him as a caster then GREAT!. So that enemy is wasting his turn just holding the bard down. Maybe doing unarmed damage. So the bard is holding one monster down. While the party has free reins to beat on it with AC penalties or attack other monsters actually posing a threat.
Just folling the team he can misfortune each ally and enemy once a day. Forcing them to reroll any d20. That alone is huge help.
At later levels his CMD is going to be worthless anyway so why fight the urge. Dump it now for doign what you are good at. James cleverly changed the build from a multi attribute design to use less.
If he sits back and forces someone into laughter each turn he will do a crazy amoutn of good. Knocking out an enemy for the fight with one spell is just as good as critting and knocking one out in one hit.
Sir thugsalot if you want to build average characters great do it. But do not build average character and praise how great they are. I bet my level 3 gnome sorcerer without a weapon or a damaging spell in mind has dropped more enemies than your build. The same thing with Jame's build.
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STR7/DEX7 and bard[archivist] forfeiting Inspire Courage? Let's stand in melee waving a flag in plain sight (Flagbearer, making up for loss of Inspire, and winking out when you go Invisible to save your ass, which will be constantly) while doling out Aid Another+4s? (I should link this in the "Dead Weight" thread.)Yeah he gives up giving a competence bonus to give an insight bonus. This is somehow a loss in your eyes? Why??
For starters, he's trading Inspire's competence bonus for Flagbearer's morale bonus (won't stack with Heroism, et al), has to devote a feat in a feat-starved class, forfeit shield use and archery, and make himself a big, obvious target. Flagbearer is tied to a mundane item which is easily destroyed or sundered (until replaced with an applicable wondrous item), and contingent upon a 15 CHA (not normally a problem, but a CHA-drain effect could wink-out the feat).
Your square gets targeted with a simple Alchemist's Fire, and the party is -1 to everything for an hour.
I do like the reroll thingy a lot; I just think the one-trick-pony aspect of it is too steep a price to pay.Sidestep Secret...sounds awesome; so let's dump physical stats to hell.... OK; what about CMD? ...I have no idea what level he has to be to start cancelling out all that horrific baggage, but I'll assert that playing him (as opposed to racking up GM credits) from 1st will be sheer bloody misery.I'd disagree. From level 1 (and he'd start at level 2 for the OP), he would be causing rerolls and saving people. I think he'd work just fine, thank you.
His CMD is worse than a normal arcanist. What's worse than 'easy'? Or would somehow having a 10STR suddenly make him ok? Sheesh. Yeah he's a sucker for shadows, for grapplers, and the like.Exactly; and he'll be running into those by Tier 6-7. Not every mod, of course; but often enough to imperil the character. (I'm more worried about him being a dagger and arrow pin-cushion at Tier 2.)
Perhaps you are confusing him with a thug in melee, rather than a support character giving out bonuses and throwing enchantments???]
If he's providing Aid+4 buffs to in-combat allies, he's in melee whether he's swinging a weapon or not. There's also the 30' range of both Flagbearer and Misfortune keeping him within the move-and-attack range of the enemy if he wants them to work.
...speaking of granting an extra +2 bonus on Aid Another, a +1 Inspire on the whole party is going to go a lot farther than an extra +2 to assist a single ally per turn. At bard5, you'd have been +2 on the whole party with Inspire.
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Sir thugsalot you seem new to PFS.I was making the same assumptions of you.
Your build looks weak to me. Swimming does not happen often so why mention it?I've lost count of how many PCs I've seen die due to consequences directly resultant from failing low-DC physical skills checks. (And not all of it from stupidity like clerics not taking off their armor during aboard-ship adventures).
My level 3s have +11 or more in their skills I have them set for.I stipulate to his CHA skills.
You Ac is mediocre,Compared to what? A 17 AC is going to be equal to or better than a PFS 3rd level barbarian's or ranger's or wizard's (most of 'em anyway). And 17 is *base*, and doesn't count cheap rings or amulets we may or not have already bought as we're waiting for the Fame necessary for Elven Chain (after which we go rocketing into the 20s and close to 30 versus Smite targets).
You attack bonus is lowish. Your damage is sad except your once a day smite evil then it is average.Compared to the *zero* damage of the 7/7 oracle, he's Schwarzenegger vs. Mother Teresa.
Yay you built a jack of all trades that is good at saves but average to low at everything else!!!(read above for my comments on that)Almost forget: +1 attack bonus versus on-foots while mounted. And take a hoof/hoof/bite while we're at it.
My advice was never get near enemies with jame's build.A strategy which goes so well with "stay within 30' for your stuff to work."
Anyways if the enemy wants to grapple him as a caster then GREAT!. So that enemy is wasting his turn just holding the bard down. Maybe doing unarmed damage. So the bard is holding one monster down. While the party has free reins to beat on it with AC penalties or attack other monsters actually posing a threat.
I'm thinking more like the GM asking for a DC 10 Acrobatics check as you're marching over slippery grates in Absolom's sewers, whereupon you go sliding down into an otyugh's lair, where he grapples you.
Yup: you'll have him right where he wants you!
(Saw a guy croak that way: took the other PCs several rounds to get there, and he was a goner by then.)
Sir thugsalot if you want to build average characters great do it.
I'd advise you not to speak ill of "chaladins" until you've seen one take down a BBEG single-handed with archery. (My build recommendation was derived from a halfling character who was a holy terror when Smiting with an Oathbow while Inspired, or when Power/Smiting with a Keen rapier two-handed for sickening crit damage after all the raw, numerical bonuses were added up and doubled.)
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It is expensive but worth every gold.
FYI : Heroism dose not add to damage. You need good hope for that. The to hit bonus is nice and all. Most characters are looking for the damage.
This is PFSP legal.
Banner of the Ancient Kings
Source Lands of the Linnorm Kings pg. 50
Aura moderate abjuration; CL 8th
Slot none; Price 18,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Description
If the banner’s carrier possesses the Flagbearer feat (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide 286), the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat. A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level for the purposes of determining the bonuses granted by his inspire courage bardic performance ability.
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This is PFSP legal.
Banner of the Ancient Kings
Source Lands of the Linnorm Kings pg. 50
Aura moderate abjuration; CL 8th
Slot none; Price 18,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Legal? Yes. Affordable? Barely. Obtainable in a timely manner? Queue the Everly Brothers.
You'll need 36 Fame points to yoink that in PFS, or over half the lifespan of the character. -- That's a loooong time to wait for your feat to not actually be a situational penalty on the entire party whenever a 1st-level goblin sorcerer has an Evocation cantrip or a 50gp alchemical lined up.
Flagbearer is the sort of thing a GM running intelligent NPCs will be hard-pressed to contain his evil chortling.
So: don't take the feat *until* you have the banner. (7th level if your local GMs are generous with the prestige handouts; otherwise 9th.)