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Last night's game was this. A player brought his girlfriend ”to hang” because she insisted to spend time with him, but he had already agreed to come to the session. So he braught her along.
I played in every concievable way,the part of a gracious host. Everyone was super nice and we even toned down the descriptions because Amanda(let's call her that) would start crying if she saw someone get injured.
She immediately displayed sogns of boredom and annoyance, even going sou far as to loudly yawn and make snarky comments.
I took it as far as i could and then politely asked her to leave because she was being rude to my other guests. She left in a huff not even bothering with common courtesy.
My player and her are now having a big fight and she threw some pretty heavy handed insults our way.
That is why I don't like people bringing friends, signifocant others or choldren to the game. They expect attention they can't get and they throw hissy fits and disript the game.
A fellow gamer has a procedure that doesn't really apply here directly but maybe indirectly.
Before anyone gets invited to attend his home game he meets them first at a public place to insure that the personalities of the people involved will mesh. I understand that that wasn't possible here.
I don't disagree with your actions after she was so demonstrative about injuries of PC's and her remarks about other players. My actions were similar in a situation of inattention of a player who would rather email and surf the net than pay attention to the game.
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Removed post containing gendered slurs. Don't do that here.
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From a standpoint as host to a variety of variations on this situation, I can only recommend some things:
Have a hard line that everyone is aware of before it becomes a problem. I've had players with girlfriends, people just hanging out, even the GM's wife at a gaming session. Nothing, but nothing, derails a game faster. If they aren't directly interested in playing, people shouldn't show up with them.
This is unique to me and my friends, and long in the past now, but having these people show up either ended up as 'strong discussions' (between the gm and his wife, who not only didn't care for her husband's hobby, but thought that he should not have us over, and spend all his time with his family) or really went south, where we'd be driving around to all the people we know looking for a dimebag on a saturday night when everyone wanted to get high rather than play the game.
Don't take the shots at you guys too personally from this girl. it's more likely that she's saying it just to get under her boyfriend's skin. (better a bad reaction than no reaction at all.) An'd agreed, she was most likely expecting someone to be involved with her, and when she wasn't engaged, she disconnected with everyone and the event.
Talk it over with your group now that the issue has come up and establish an agreed-upon guideline for bringing people to your game night.
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What that behaviour comes down to is that the significant other can´t stand the thought that the partner goes out alone. This probably points to other troubles. Whatever might be behind that, I would not allow somebody to "just hang out" at my games, because I guess it will prove disruptive sooner or later. If somebody leaves my group because of that, I would make it clear that it is their decision, which I have to accept. But I would probably point out that a significant other disallowing their partner time spent on their own spells trouble, depending on how close I would be to that player.
Regarding the OPs post, according to his description, he handled the situation aptly IMO.
As had already been said, I think you made the best of a bad situation, Hama. RPGs aren't some people's cup of tea. Your player made a bad call bringing her along. Now he's facing some guff from his girlfriend because the situation has made an "us or them" situation come up. It happens. She may feel at odds with your group, as she was asked to leave, and may take any time your player spends with you as a slight towards her. Things will work out, or they won't.
Gaming when your young is great. No job, little to no relationship worries, and all the energy, enthusiasm, and time in the world. Then people grow up, have to work, have relationships, have children. If you love the hobby you work around all that as best you can. Just don't let the hobby come between you and your friends. We have a player that can't always get a sitter for game night. The kids come along and we accommodate them as best we can rather than telling her to stay home. Sometimes it becomes a distraction, but it's worth it to keep things all-around happy. People who have significant others that aren't into gaming usually plan "together" time for other times, and their partners go do something they enjoy during game time.
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I don't feel vengefull towards her, so I'm not going to mess with her wireless :)
But it's kinda sad to me, you come to someone's place, you get treated with respect, and you get disruptive because not enough attention is paid to you? Darling, i am not the one with a problem.
You should hear some of the names she called us. Oh and she's given him an ”me or them” ultimatum alrrady.
I was with a girl once and she gave me that ”me or them” choice. Naturally i dumped her, and i have proceeded to tell every girl i date that she will experience the same fate if she gave me an ultimatum like that.
I just hope my friend has enough self respect to do the right thing.
(better a bad reaction than no reaction at all.)
I don't get this at all. If i cannot produce a positive reaction to something I'm surely not going to try screw things up just to get a reaction. Only children do that. And very immature people.
Last night's game was this. A player brought his girlfriend ”to hang” because she insisted to spend time with him, but he had already agreed to come to the session. So he braught her along.
I played in every concievable way,the part of a gracious host. Everyone was super nice and we even toned down the descriptions because Amanda(let's call her that) would start crying if she saw someone get injured.
She immediately displayed sogns of boredom and annoyance, even going sou far as to loudly yawn and make snarky comments.
I took it as far as i could and then politely asked her to leave because she was being rude to my other guests. She left in a huff not even bothering with common courtesy.
My player and her are now having a big fight and she threw some pretty heavy handed insults our way.
That is why I don't like people bringing friends, signifocant others or choldren to the game. They expect attention they can't get and they throw hissy fits and disript the game.
I've had wives / significant others come to games. It's a mixed bag. Some are polite, some try the game, others are a Pita. It's pretty much up to your friend to deal with his relationship. All you can do is be polite and deal with what happens. Sounds to me like you did what you needed to.
My wife tried gaming but didn't stick with it. She's not a pain about it though. My kids are gamers (not P&P RPGs but CRPGs) and they often follow along with the game if they're home (college). They have manners though which helps. One friend's wife became a fairly regular player (the baby kept her away sometimes) but that ended when they divorced (that was awkward...). I lost one player when he married. He pretty much gave up RPGs, Napoleonic miniatures and WH 40K at that point. His choice there. My brother's wife plays when her schedule allows. Like I said, mixed bag.
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I had a better experience. A fellow gamer first brought his girlfriend, and then her sister into the group. Both play with us now.
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My player and her are now having a big fight and she threw some pretty heavy handed insults our way.
You may have done your player a huge favor although I doubt he'll see it that way.
(better a bad reaction than no reaction at all.)I don't get this at all. If i cannot produce a positive reaction to something I'm surely not going to try screw things up just to get a reaction. Only children do that. And very immature people.
It is immature, but unfortunately common. For whatever reason, this person feels a need to be the focus of social situations. When this person cannot have the spotlight for positive reasons (winning a contest, being nice) they resort to acting out, because that gets people to look at them.
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I usually experience the opposite: intended player arrived, got bored, found a distraction, their guest took over, and the session improved.
Based on the information you provided, I agree you handled the situation as best you could. If there's fallout from the girl, that's not your fault, just as it's not your fault that, based on your description, she's an attention-mongering loony bird. Being insulted by a person like that is a compliment (i.e., if a nutjob has a poor opinion of you, then you're probably alright).
I wouldn't say that this means someone can never bring friends--on occasion we've had RPGs where an SO or friend was there for some reason and didn't want to play but watch. Usually they watched and sometimes asked pertinent questions about what was going on, or went into the other room and read a book/played on the computer and didn't disturb us. Sometimes we've had peanut gallery commentary, but usually in GOOD humor, not meant to be unduly distracting or cruel. Sometimes we'll ask an attending SO to blow on our dice for luck and such.
But if it's common that your gaming group's friends are disruptive, I'd at least talk to your group about establishing some ground rules for guests, and make sure that if any guests are invited, that they know they are expected to behave by a certain code of conduct, or will be asked to leave, because of bad past experiences. While normally one shouldn't have to say outloud things like, "Please be aware this is a game with violence, do not watch if you find violence upsetting," or "Please do not insult your hosts," or "Please understand this is game that requires our concentration and accept we will not be chatting with you very often," maybe it'd help to set that up should you be pressured to let a guest attend again.
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Oh there are ground rules. Nobody but the players should come to the session. If inevitable, bring that someone, but inform the person that it probably won't be getting much attention from anyone. As far as kids are concerned, i have had some pretty nasty things happen (like a kid tearing up a grid or one that used scissors to cut up some miniatures), so i am, as a rule, against children anywhere near the place where we game. What purpose do grandparents/other parent/a babysitter serve? We even had a friend who was a single dad (he moved far away unfortunately, he was an awesome storyteller), and we all chipped in every gaming night and payed the sitter for him, so that he could come.
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Well, if that's what works for you, then that's what works for you! I'm glad our groups haven't had to go to that extreme, but then most of our (rare) guests are capable of entertaining themselves without being dicks. If that's generally not your experience I can understand your wanting to draw a harder line.
We've had little kids at table at times and while it can be distracting normally we've had little problem with them. I do wish sometimes some parents of kids would hire a sitter on occasion, but that's also a general wish for social activities, coming entirely selfishly from a single friend amongst many parents. Cost issues aside, it seems parents of this generation are very loath to do this for some reason, perhaps because of abuse horror stories and the like. Thank god my parents' and slightly younger generation weren't like that, or as a teenager, I never would have earned any spending money! I LOVE the idea of chipping in for a sitter, though, that was very sweet and a good idea.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I have a long-time player and GM who occasionally brings his new bride to the game. She's cool. I doubt she'll ever join in, though. OTOH, Mrs. Bell did.
We couldn't play if players couldn't have kids around. It delays the game until bedtime but those players are worth it.
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Hama,
I wouldn't judge "Amanda" so quickly like others here did. Seems to me like much of her behavior stems from some personal trouble she had with her boyfriend (your friend). She was probably ignoring you guys and just trying to signal her boyfriend how annoyed she is at the fact that he would devote his free time to you guys and not to her.
Not trying to get into this, but I'm just saying that the way she behaved had nothing to do with you guys or the game you were playing, you just happened to be present in the midst of an argument. As she at fault for ignoring the fact that she is imposing the argument on other people? was your player at fault for sitting there and ignoring what sound to me like very obvious signals that his girlfriend is displeased? not going to judge, just pointing out that the situation is more complex.
So I wouldn't generalize anything from this event you described. Obviously it was just about one of your playing group having "troubles at home" and what you guys experienced is collateral damage.
For example, I currently GM a group and we only get to meet once per month (at best) for marathon weekends, because since highschool the group is split across big distnaces. Since my girlfriend also lives far away from me, we always use the oppertunity to being her along as well. While she isn't a player in the group, she dosen't mind us gaming, and would either sit and watch or just do something else while wer'e playing. Once, she brought a friend to one of our weekends, and the friend was actualy excited to check out roleplaying, so we had her join the game for a session and she was having a good time, and improving the game for everyone on the table.
So if even the friend of the GM's girlfriend can be O.K, there's no reason to think bringing people to the table is only trouble.
Last night's game was this. A player brought his girlfriend ”to hang” because she insisted to spend time with him, but he had already agreed to come to the session. So he braught her along.
I played in every concievable way,the part of a gracious host. Everyone was super nice and we even toned down the descriptions because Amanda(let's call her that) would start crying if she saw someone get injured.
She immediately displayed sogns of boredom and annoyance, even going sou far as to loudly yawn and make snarky comments.
I took it as far as i could and then politely asked her to leave because she was being rude to my other guests. She left in a huff not even bothering with common courtesy.
My player and her are now having a big fight and she threw some pretty heavy handed insults our way.
That is why I don't like people bringing friends, signifocant others or choldren to the game. They expect attention they can't get and they throw hissy fits and disript the game.
I've seen it before, and a friend of mine (who no longer dms) has some awful tales for this one. Total game shattering events of people rocking up when they should not be there, eating all the fun, laughing at everyone else and then leaving after ending a campaign.
It is an opportunity, you could draw them in and give them a character, but some people just want to be dicks and sabotage the game. You did the right thing by booting them.
No surprise they had no courtesy, bloody commons. You made the right call out of the choice of shi*ty calls.
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I was a boy when I got drawn into D&D, and I will always be thankful that my older brother got me into it.
However, I would have been a damn nuisance if I came along to another game, and wasn't playing. The chaotic power of children in equaled only by angry partners.
And don't get me started on having kids arond. UGH.
I believe firmly in the children should be neither seen nor heard ethos. LOL
If you haven't had to deal with this yet, unless you're just playing with an ever-rotating group of college kids or younger, you will have to some time. As a parent and long-time gamer, I hope you will develop a little more tolerance of those of us who sometimes have to arrange gaming around our kids or need to play where there are kids about. We typically move our game to the site where kid care is most convenient or necessary for the younger kids because we're not going to ditch decent players simply because they have kids.
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Hama,
I wouldn't judge "Amanda" so quickly like others here did. Seems to me like much of her behavior stems from some personal trouble she had with her boyfriend (your friend). She was probably ignoring you guys and just trying to signal her boyfriend how annoyed she is at the fact that he would devote his free time to you guys and not to her.
Not trying to get into this, but I'm just saying that the way she behaved had nothing to do with you guys or the game you were playing, you just happened to be present in the midst of an argument. As she at fault for ignoring the fact that she is imposing the argument on other people? was your player at fault for sitting there and ignoring what sound to me like very obvious signals that his girlfriend is displeased? not going to judge, just pointing out that the situation is more complex.
So I wouldn't generalize anything from this event you described. Obviously it was just about one of your playing group having "troubles at home" and what you guys experienced is collateral damage.
For example, I currently GM a group and we only get to meet once per month (at best) for marathon weekends, because since highschool the group is split across big distnaces. Since my girlfriend also lives far away from me, we always use the oppertunity to being her along as well. While she isn't a player in the group, she dosen't mind us gaming, and would either sit and watch or just do something else while wer'e playing. Once, she brought a friend to one of our weekends, and the friend was actualy excited to check out roleplaying, so we had her join the game for a session and she was having a good time, and improving the game for everyone on the table.
So if even the friend of the GM's girlfriend can be O.K, there's no reason to think bringing people to the table is only trouble.
To the first paragraph, if she couldn't fathom that he would spend one evening per week with friends having fun (just like if we went for beers and pool, or played poker), i honestly couldn't care less aboit her feelings. Plus then she is not really good girlfriend material.
Update: they had a screaming match last night. It ended with a breakup. Friend asked when is the next session. Thought i would br happier about this, but I'm really not.
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I'm with Lord Snow on this - she wanted to come because of possessiveness and played up for the same reason. It is worth noting though that watching other people play RPGs is very boring - I like RPGs and I find it boring. So if someone wants to come and "hang", I'd suggest the following: (1) get the DM's permission first, (2) and make sure they play or they have something else to do.
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Despite the horrible end of this, I would strongly advise not banning non-players from a table. One of the better ways for people to tell if a game is for them is to sit in on a session or two.
I do insist that I at least talk to people a little before they come to my house, which is where we game, but that's because my four small children live here. I am not inviting a crazy person here. Or at least not a crazy person I can't tackle to the ground with relative ease.
If something like this happens, I'd suggest maybe trying to include some kind of NPC character for the session for them to play, with a bit of help, so they can join in and not sit around doing nothing. If they don't want to, fine, but at least you made the offer to try and get them involved.
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I believe firmly in the children should be neither seen nor heard ethos. LOL
Just spent the weekend at a con where the kids had their own table to play at, mostly covered in train track. They were great. It was only the times when we couldn't see or hear them that we had to worry about what they were getting up to :)
... and what of the happiness of other players at the table?
Nuisances should be dispelled. Good on the first poster for getting rid of a nuisance. I hope he isn't too bitter with his player, and blame him for the ex's actions.
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As I said - life is more important than role-playing.
Sometimes. I'm pretty firm on the kids stuff. I will not have a screaming tornado of restlessness destroy my home because someone couldn't find a sitter. Like I said, if we can, we chip in for one, if we can't, well children are not welcome in my home. It's not kid friendly, with all the sharp edges not kid-proofed, and a lot of breakable stuff lying around, and it will remain so until I get a child, at which moment, I will promptly remove that child on the day of the session (grandma, other grandma, wife taking it somewhere).
It's interesting, older i get, less and less can i tolerate the presence of children.I hope he isn't too bitter with his player, and blame him for the ex's actions.
That won't happen. I don't judge other people based on behavior of their friends and significant others. Plus, I've been friends with the guy for more then 15 years. One annoying girl isn't going to destroy that. Plus, she's gone, so that's good.
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I've had many "tag-alongs" over the years, and really, a houserule arose that unless someone is interested in potentially joining the game, or learning something from the game itself, that outside non-players are not to be present.
I've seen a lot of different types(girl/boyfriends, work buddies, kids, friends wanting to hang out, etc), and they all boiled down to being big distractions, little more.
The only thing I may have done slightly different in Hama's OP, was that I would've have pulled the player aside(whom the bored, distracting person was with) and I would have asked them to say something to their significant other. I would have informed that that their "guest" was becoming quite a nuisance and they they should say something, or maybe wrap the game early and not have the guest back. I probably would not have kicked her out directly, unless she was given a warning and kept at her antics.
Tag-along guests aren't all bad. Like others have posted, sometimes this leads to those guests joining a later game and entering the hobby. But, if they aren't there for the game, they are getting in the way. I've had some friends who wanted to turn our game night into social hang out time, and the games got ruined. Socializing within a game setting isn't quite the same, as having a group of non-gamers hanging out, watching tv loudly in the same room as the game.
As I said - life is more important than role-playing.Sometimes. I'm pretty firm on the kids stuff. I will not have a screaming tornado of restlessness destroy my home because someone couldn't find a sitter. Like I said, if we can, we chip in for one, if we can't, well children are not welcome in my home. It's not kid friendly, with all the sharp edges not kid-proofed, and a lot of breakable stuff lying around, and it will remain so until I get a child, at which moment, I will promptly remove that child on the day of the session (grandma, other grandma, wife taking it somewhere).
It's interesting, older i get, less and less can i tolerate the presence of children.I hope he isn't too bitter with his player, and blame him for the ex's actions.That won't happen. I don't judge other people based on behavior of their friends and significant others. Plus, I've been friends with the guy for more then 15 years. One annoying girl isn't going to destroy that. Plus, she's gone, so that's good.
All good then. I too find I am getting more and more tired of... children the older I get. Some get worn down by what I simply call, the culture of child-rearing and its advertisement material, others stay firm (hold shield wall, hold).
I've had many "tag-alongs" over the years, and really, a houserule arose that unless someone is interested in potentially joining the game, or learning something from the game itself, that outside non-players are not to be present.
I've seen a lot of different types(girl/boyfriends, work buddies, kids, friends wanting to hang out, etc), and they all boiled down to being big distractions, little more.
The only thing I may have done slightly different in Hama's OP, was that I would've have pulled the player aside(whom the bored, distracting person was with) and I would have asked them to say something to their significant other. I would have informed that that their "guest" was becoming quite a nuisance and they they should say something, or maybe wrap the game early and not have the guest back. I probably would not have kicked her out directly, unless she was given a warning and kept at her antics.
Tag-along guests aren't all bad. Like others have posted, sometimes this leads to those guests joining a later game and entering the hobby. But, if they aren't there for the game, they are getting in the way. I've had some friends who wanted to turn our game night into social hang out time, and the games got ruined. Socializing within a game setting isn't quite the same, as having a group of non-gamers hanging out, watching tv loudly in the same room as the game.
Yeeep. This is a good thread. It can be a really serious problem, and we seem to have had a lot of collective grief over the years.
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It's interesting, older i get, less and less can i tolerate the presence of children.
Get off of my lawn!
Yeesh, those meddling kids...
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Better to discover it now and avoid having children in the future than to wait until you have some and discover you want nothing to do with them.
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Yeeep. This is a good thread. It can be a really serious problem, and we seem to have had a lot of collective grief over the years.
Indeed. I've had some really bad interlopers. There was even a girl who was obsessed with one of our players, who intentionally showed up to distract the guy she was after; she'd turn the tv up loud(it was a small apartment), she'd bring other friends over uninvited, talk loudly, start conversation with players and interupt turns, pull players away from the game to "check this out"(tv show, topic, etc). It was bad.
She was booted and our other friends were barred from attending game nights. This however, only prompted the girl to fake interest in the game so she could continue to come out. This lessened the tv distractions, but it became obvious pretty quick that she had no actual interest in the game. Any game the poor sap(guy she was after) joined up, she followed suit. Finally booted her, and wound up blacklisting her completely.
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Hama,
I wouldn't judge "Amanda" so quickly like others here did. Seems to me like much of her behavior stems from some personal trouble she had with her boyfriend (your friend). She was probably ignoring you guys and just trying to signal her boyfriend how annoyed she is at the fact that he would devote his free time to you guys and not to her.
Not trying to get into this, but I'm just saying that the way she behaved had nothing to do with you guys or the game you were playing, you just happened to be present in the midst of an argument. As she at fault for ignoring the fact that she is imposing the argument on other people? was your player at fault for sitting there and ignoring what sound to me like very obvious signals that his girlfriend is displeased? not going to judge, just pointing out that the situation is more complex.
So I wouldn't generalize anything from this event you described. Obviously it was just about one of your playing group having "troubles at home" and what you guys experienced is collateral damage.
For example, I currently GM a group and we only get to meet once per month (at best) for marathon weekends, because since highschool the group is split across big distnaces. Since my girlfriend also lives far away from me, we always use the oppertunity to being her along as well. While she isn't a player in the group, she dosen't mind us gaming, and would either sit and watch or just do something else while wer'e playing. Once, she brought a friend to one of our weekends, and the friend was actualy excited to check out roleplaying, so we had her join the game for a session and she was having a good time, and improving the game for everyone on the table.
So if even the friend of the GM's girlfriend can be O.K, there's no reason to think bringing people to the table is only trouble.
I absolutely agree judging this one event as a baseline for establishing the rule is harsh/unfair. But it sounds like from his other posts that this is one of many negative experiences with guests, just the straw that broke the camel's back.
But as a separate issue I think the flack thrown "Amanda's" way is right -- being abusive and rude to your hosts because you want to "teach your boyfriend a lesson" is no sort of behavior that is EVER acceptable, anywhere. You can be mad at your boyfriend, but the moment you make it my problem (and when I am neither you nor your boyfriend), that's when unacceptable lines get crossed. I don't personally agree with some of the extremes he prefers, but I can totally understand why Hama's pissed--and he has every right to establish whatever ground rules he needs to make sure everyone in is group is having fun.
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My first experience with RPGs was sitting in while my brother played a D&D session with his friends. If I hadn't been allowed to do that, I might never have been able to get into the hobby. Now, granted, I was there specifically because I was interested in the game and wanted to see how it was played. That's not the same as someone who was just there to socialize. Plus I happily kept my mouth shut the whole time and made sure not to bother anyone.
I have had the girlfriend of one of my players hang out around us while we play. She's also a quiet type, and hasn't cause any problems.
It depends a lot on the personality type of the visitor. Some folks, even generally nice and decent ones, just can't sit there for several hours while everybody does something they aren't involved in. If they're gracious, they realize this and go do something else. If they aren't, they cause problems. Some other people are just fine sitting around doing their own thing, or quietly listening in.
I can understand the blanket no-visitors rule, since gaming groups and sessions can be such fragile things. But keep in mind that a rule like that might mean that potential gamers never get exposed to the hobby.
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Re: Kids...
All I have to say is that it was one of my proudest accomplishments as a gamer AND a father that I got my 13-year-old into playing tabletop RPGs. She now runs her own game with her friends!
That said, little kids (age 2-7) can be very disruptive to a game... particularly if they're the kind that won't sit still or can't be trusted around a TV set. And there's also the factor of the content rating of the game. When I took over GM duties of my group, we had to change the venue to my house from the home of a couple who had been in the game. They had a then-5-year-old who they let wander around in the room we played in. Unfortunately, I wanted to run a game with strong horror elements, and did not feel comfortable giving rather graphic description of kind of strong stuff with a young kid running around.
In my house, my wife usually took care of our kid in a different area of the house... until she got old enough to know better than to be disruptive. Then, she started watching our game with interest and respect (and asking the occasional insightful question), which garnered her interest in the hobby.
TL;DR: Not all kids are disruptive, and a well-behaved parent knows when to remove a disruptive child from a situation.
