Most parents aren't well behaved and take it as a personal insult when you tell them to discipline their child...
Most parents? I know I wouldn't go that far. Maybe I've just been lucky in my exposure.
Your experience with "Amanda" sounds pretty awful. We've been very fortunate in that the folks that have come with their friends or SOs to our games have been largely well behaved. The worst disruptions we've have thus far are just questions about the game/dice mechanics. I always like watching the expresion on people's faces once they figure out how a d4 works. :) I also think it's fun to watch their expressions when they find out that, yes, there are girls that game, too.
I have nieces and nephews who I would never dream of bringing along with me gaming, and I have nieces and nephews who I know would happily sit quietly and listen, or largely manage themsleves with a book or laptop. I think I could say the same about my friends, as well. :P
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In my experience, parents are worse then their kids most of the time. A child is a child. Full of energy and interested in the world. I can respect that. I remember running around our house as a kid cutting up every piece of paper that i could find. That is until my father beat the ever loving crap out of me for breaking several beer bottles on the floor and cutting my legs.
The point is, kids don't know any better. Parents do. If they can't teach their children to behave, they are the ones who have a problem, not the child. Of course, there are impossible children as well, but still...
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I have a long-time player and GM who occasionally brings his new bride to the game. She's cool. I doubt she'll ever join in, though. OTOH, Mrs. Bell did.
We couldn't play if players couldn't have kids around. It delays the game until bedtime but those players are worth it.
I should caveat that I have played with parents before who were not as awesome as these particular players and whose kid problems would not have been worth it to me to continue playing with them.
There is definitely a ratio of player awesomeness to kid misbehavior. If you are way awesome I am willing to tolerate your kids more. But if you are not a good player (and I don't mean system mastery, I mean contributing to fun for everyone at the table), I will have little tolerance if your kids start causing problems. And if your kids are well-behaved, it's no issue at all.
The particular players I mentioned are both awesome players and have a pretty well-behaved toddler. We have to take a break when they give him a bath and put him to bed, but it's worth it to everybody in the group because a) they're awesome players, and b) we love them and are fantastically happy for them that their dream of adopting a child is coming true.
In my experience, parents are worse then their kids most of the time. A child is a child. Full of energy and interested in the world. I can respect that. I remember running around our house as a kid cutting up every piece of paper that i could find. That is until my father beat the ever loving crap out of me for breaking several beer bottles on the floor and cutting my legs.
The point is, kids don't know any better. Parents do. If they can't teach their children to behave, they are the ones who have a problem, not the child. Of course, there are impossible children as well, but still...
I get what you're saying (mostly). I was just saying that, in my experience, most parents are pretty okay with their kids. I'd say maybe three or four percent of the the parents I've met make me wonder about their parenting skills.
I'd say that percentage also goes to the amount of people I meet that are "Amandas", as well. Maybe I'm just lucky.
I'm not sure what I'd do if someone acted like that at one of my games, but it sounds like you did your friend something of a favor.
Last night's game was this. A player brought his girlfriend ”to hang” because she insisted to spend time with him, but he had already agreed to come to the session. So he braught her along.
While I understand this may work for other groups, such a thing would be a complete non-starter for us.
For our group, if this was brought up, the response would be along the lines of "you can probably sit this session out." No tag-alongs.
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There are so many parents out there that I see that make me wonder why we don't have breeding laws. I was just in Claim Jumpers (an american restaurant) the other day and was with my parents, gf, and daughter. My daughter is 8 months and people from the other table even commented on her being the best behaved child they've ever seen and the manager came up to see her and enjoyed interacting with her. Is some of this natural temperment? Surely, yes. But when she started getting tired and fussy I didn't sit there and let her fuss and cry and bother people. I took her into another unoccupied area of the restaurant and did stuff to keep her calm and quiet.
The table across from us? This couple had a child that must've been at least 3...she was crawling all over the place. Being very loud and distracting and then when her mother took her into the restroom to "correct her" (we all know what that means) she was screaming like she was being murdered and even when she came out was screaming and yelling and making a gigantic scene. The dad just sat there. They had zero control over that child. Now some of this comes with having a kid in the terrible twos and threes..but the way they handled it showed a serious lack of parenting. I can't even imagine how that kid will act out later.
I see way too many stupid, irresponsible parents to think its an isolated few. There's enough young people in prison and dropping out of high school that it sure as hell isn't just a few kids rebelling against good parents. There is a serious parenting problem in this country.
Most parents today don't really want kids, just the absurd social status that accompanies child ownership.
Re: Kids...
All I have to say is that it was one of my proudest accomplishments as a gamer AND a father that I got my 13-year-old into playing tabletop RPGs. She now runs her own game with her friends!That said, little kids (age 2-7) can be very disruptive to a game... particularly if they're the kind that won't sit still or can't be trusted around a TV set. And there's also the factor of the content rating of the game. When I took over GM duties of my group, we had to change the venue to my house from the home of a couple who had been in the game. They had a then-5-year-old who they let wander around in the room we played in. Unfortunately, I wanted to run a game with strong horror elements, and did not feel comfortable giving rather graphic description of kind of strong stuff with a young kid running around.
In my house, my wife usually took care of our kid in a different area of the house... until she got old enough to know better than to be disruptive. Then, she started watching our game with interest and respect (and asking the occasional insightful question), which garnered her interest in the hobby.
TL;DR: Not all kids are disruptive, and a well-behaved parent knows when to remove a disruptive child from a situation.
Great accomplishments Haladir. I started a bit earlier than 13, so it can be done. On content, hmm, there is a lot of opinion on censorship and fear of damaging children. There is way too much worry. I can tell you that much like a kid watching a movie with a sex scene won't destroy them for life, grisly content and mature themes can be in games with children, and nobody explodes or is mentally ruined. Fairy tales for instance, these types of stories, used to be a lot darker and grim compared to current children's stories.
Horror is entertaining, and children interested in gaming can give it a go and do well (without internally combusting).
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I absolutely agree judging this one event as a baseline for establishing the rule is harsh/unfair. But it sounds like from his other posts that this is one of...Hama,
I wouldn't judge "Amanda" so quickly like others here did. Seems to me like much of her behavior stems from some personal trouble she had with her boyfriend (your friend). She was probably ignoring you guys and just trying to signal her boyfriend how annoyed she is at the fact that he would devote his free time to you guys and not to her.
Not trying to get into this, but I'm just saying that the way she behaved had nothing to do with you guys or the game you were playing, you just happened to be present in the midst of an argument. As she at fault for ignoring the fact that she is imposing the argument on other people? was your player at fault for sitting there and ignoring what sound to me like very obvious signals that his girlfriend is displeased? not going to judge, just pointing out that the situation is more complex.
So I wouldn't generalize anything from this event you described. Obviously it was just about one of your playing group having "troubles at home" and what you guys experienced is collateral damage.
For example, I currently GM a group and we only get to meet once per month (at best) for marathon weekends, because since highschool the group is split across big distnaces. Since my girlfriend also lives far away from me, we always use the oppertunity to being her along as well. While she isn't a player in the group, she dosen't mind us gaming, and would either sit and watch or just do something else while wer'e playing. Once, she brought a friend to one of our weekends, and the friend was actualy excited to check out roleplaying, so we had her join the game for a session and she was having a good time, and improving the game for everyone on the table.
So if even the friend of the GM's girlfriend can be O.K, there's no reason to think bringing people to the table is only trouble.
Without more knowledge of the situation, I feel some of your statements might be unjustified.
Often, when people fight, the following two things are true:
1) They behave in ways they wouldn't normally even consider, out of anger and a sense of spite, and if a third party is caught in the crossfire, then some of the nastiness could easily drip out and get 'em.
2) Often the superficial reason for the fight is not the actual reason behind it - if two people just don't resonant and yet they try to force thing by, say, attempting a romantic relationship, fights could erupt on really flimsy grounds, but what started a fight is usually just a lesser detail.
My point being, the girl and the gamer were probably (or at least possibly) not actually fighting about the gamer going to play Pathfinder and the girl wanting him to spend time with her. There is a more than negligible chance that the relationship, at that point, consisted of mostly fighting, and that issue was just the latest of many, all of them converging together to create a mega-fight. So she might very well have not been acting normally that night.
Consider the situation - she was in a very emotional state, and surrounded with her boyfriend's friends. Could have felt a lot like being surrounded, and a cornered human will bite as surely as any snake. Plus, sounds to me like while the girl was doing her best to signal she was unsatisfied, the gamer attempted to ignore the situation and game on, at least for a little while, only adding to her anger. I, for one, can't imagine a situation where my girlfriend is all but shouting at me that she's unhappy and continue gaming with my friends just because I made a commitment - my word is important to me, and I said I'd come to the game, but I think by that point it should be clear to everyone at the table that circumstances are not usual. And, if Mr. gamer was unable or unwilling to notice that in this situation he should certianly take the time to talk with his girlfriend and clear the matter... well, that's also bad behavior, which I would guess comes somewhat from the fact that gamer was annoyed as well.
These things are ALWAYS more complicated. In this thread, a public snap judgment was made about a person and a situation we all know nothing about. A reasonable line of thinking requires to take a step back and acknowledge that, which is exactly what I'm trying to do here. Gathering a mob is never a good thing, even when it's non violent and can really do no harm to no one.
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He wasn't out at a strip club at 2 in the morning with a wife and child at home. He was having a quiet game of Pathfinder. This is inexcusable behavior and she was behaving like a b*****. Whether she is one depends on how she behaves normally.
Not sure how many times I have to stress the point that we don't actualy know quite a lot of details about the incident. I'm pretty sure the fight wasn't about the guy playing Pathfinder, but rather about a bunch of other stuff that culminated to a point where every little thing becomes a reason to continue fighting.
Maybe the girl really was in the wrong. Maybe she was really just an unpleasant person. BUT WE DON'T KNOW. We don't know why these guys were fighting, for as much as we can guess maybe the gamer said some nasty things to her before dragging her with him to a house full of HIS friends - yeah, try having a fight with someone when you are with a bunch of friends of his which you don't know. That's uncomfortable.
I know that I will never act as the girl did. I also know I will never act as the gamer did, ignoring incredibly obvious signs of distress from my girlfriend just to continue playing pathfinder, because "I made a commitment". What does it get to make this guy to stop gaming for a moment and pay attention? what does it get to convince his friends he is not in a position to play right now? When I game with my friends, whenever someone asks for a break we grant it, and in the circumstances described we would just STOP THE GAME until the matter is sorted out... and if it can't be in the relevant time frame, we will allow the dude to excuse himself from the session and carry on without him for a couple more hours.
Don't judge people and situations you are too far away from. You are only showing yourself to be incapable of looking things in a balanced way. So really just take a moment and examine your assumptions here, try to picture the situation in your head and see just how many details are lacking.
Or, you know, just raise the pitchforks and cry "Off with her head!".
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Again, why they were fighting is totally irrelevant. It doesn't change poor behavior. There's enough information given here to know she was acting totally inappropriately, especially with this line: "You should hear some of the names she called us"
Now is she a bad person? Who knows. This could have been totally out of character and was due to overwhelming stressors. I suspect not, but I don't have enough to judge her whole character. So unless Hama is giving an inaccurate version of the events, she was acting like a "witch". Now is that who she is? Who knows..but he was definitely right to boot her and kudos for holding self-control to not go off on her.
Most certainly there's nothing negative to say about Hama concerning this story, and that is not what I'm trying to say.
I'm saying that people here are at a consensus that the girl is the BBEG of Hama's story, and I am trying to get people to reserve judgment. Yeah, she acted nasty, but so does Jack Bower when he's hounding down a terrorist. Saying ANYTHING is "inexcusable regardless of anything" is (I think obviously) going way too far. I can really, easily see a version of the situation where the girl feels cornered, and angry and neglected, and since she is in the midst of a bunch of friends to the guy she's fighting with, she might feel cornered. Might feel like everyone else is against her, like everyone is taking the other side. So, when you are so emotional in a hostile environment... cussing and name calling are certainly things you can do, and in many cases will do. Iv'e seen it happen plenty of time - a situation where someone who's offended and realize they are in hostile territory become more hostile themselves. It's a natural defense mechanism that sometimes requires incredible amounts of self control to shake off.The bad behavior displayed by the girl could easily be the result of circumstances, meaning that judging her is unfair and therefore shouldn't be done.
If you've never experienced a situation like that girl did... don't dare judge her. You don't know how that feels and you might be surprised by how you'll react. You know nothing about the girl, you know next to nothing about what happened (a report from someone who was mostly a bystander to a fight between a couple is not an accurate retelling of what happened), and you also completely shrug off the part that the boyfriend played in allowing the situation to reach such a boiling point - forcing an obviously vulnerable and angry girlfriend into a VERY uncomfortable situation and then ignoring her constant reminders that she is not cool with how things are right now. Maybe if he were more attentive to, well, anything besides the game and his friends, the situation wouldn't have been reached.
And if you still consider yourself the possessor of the superhuman power of discerning who among people you never met was responsible for what in an interaction you've only read about by a biased witness (who's a friend of one side of the conflict and been hurt by the other side)... well, maybe you are right. After all, I don't know you personally, and can't determine if you have that ability or not. But I sure can do nothing more to convince you to look at things in a more balanced way.
The story seems pretty clear. I could call the original poster a liar, but I don't think he is, there is too much pain and discomfort at the terrible guest, and I've seen this before. So, still on the side of boot her and move on, game until the sun rises, never look back.
Awful people don't always have to be sympathised with Lord Snow. It doesn't make you an awful person to be clear when, enough is enough.
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Lord Snow, I think you're missing the main point. The origin of their problems as a couple doesn't matter to the behavior she exhibited. "Balance" in something that never should have been anything that the others there became aware of, doesn't matter. That was for them to deal with. On there time. Not to drag it into a bunch of other peoples lives and screw with them. Anyone who does that, as she did, is a... well I shouldn't say the word here - feel free to insert your own epithet for a self centered irritating... person. What did the OP and the others at the game have to do with this couples personal issues? Why should she take it out on them? They could have done this elsewhere and else when. She chose to start this incident at this time and place. Did she need an audience? Did she feel justified in ruining their time because these people were his friends? What does that say about her? Nothing good. Immature and inconsiderate at best, a lot more at worst.
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The story seems pretty clear. I could call the original poster a liar, but I don't think he is, there is too much pain and discomfort at the terrible guest, and I've seen this before. So, still on the side of boot her and move on, game until the sun rises, never look back.
Awful people don't always have to be sympathised with Lord Snow. It doesn't make you an awful person to be clear when, enough is enough.
It's not about anyone being a liar, it's about the same thing looking very different from various perspectives.
I am trying to argue that Hama and his gaming group was caught in the crossfire of what might be a BIG argument - and the argument is not at all about them. The STORY is not about them. It's about a couple fighting.
Hama could have easily failed to share details he may have simply not percieved - for example, the possibility that the girl DID feel a lot of hostility from the gaming group towards her. What is she and her boyfriend were fighting constantly even before that evening, and the rest of the group heard about it and took a collective stand at their friend's side? what if when the girl entered the home where the game took place all she could see were several hostile pairs of eyes? Hama might not have actively done anything, but just by naturally seeing things from a perspective closer to that of his friend, he might have had a hand in stressing the girl out.
I'm not trying to say Hama did anything wrong, only that when he's telling us he didn't initiate any hostility... well, that might not be the way that the girl understood things, and Hama would obviously not be able to tell us about that.
And how did everyone decide that it was the girl's fault for taking her steam off at the presence of other people? how do everyone keep failing to see that her boyfriend might have some of the blame as well, for maneuvering her into a position where, while she is upset at him and in emotional turmoil, he is in the presence of friends, in a stranger's house (to her eyes) and playing a game? how is it all her fault? how do you KNOW?
I'm not defending a horrible person, I am defending a person you all decreed horrible without meeting ONCE, and when hearing about her only from someone she aggravated, who is a friend to someone else who had fights with her.
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Lord Snow, I think you're missing the main point. The origin of their problems as a couple doesn't matter to the behavior she exhibited. "Balance" in something that never should have been anything that the others there became aware of, doesn't matter. That was for them to deal with. On there time. Not to drag it into a bunch of other peoples lives and screw with them. Anyone who does that, as she did, is a... well I shouldn't say the word here - feel free to insert your own epithet for a self centered irritating... person. What did the OP and the others at the game have to do with this couples personal issues? Why should she take it out on them? They could have done this elsewhere and else when. She chose to start this incident at this time and place. Did she need an audience? Did she feel justified in ruining their time because these people were his friends? What does that say about her? Nothing good. Immature and inconsiderate at best, a lot more at worst.
You started off really good - "That was for them to deal with. On there time. Not to drag it into a bunch of other peoples lives and screw with them.". That I can agree with, the fight should have happened in private.
How is the girl more responsible from the gamer? I don't know. Imagine the reverse situation - boy and girl have a fight, and in the middle of the fight the girl declares she and her friends are having a dancing session and she's gonna go, and if the boy wants to be in her company than why, he is welcome to come skulk about in her friend's house. So, angry, the boy does just that, and when he arrives he gets bored with the dance and, still being angry and upset, starts drawing attention to himself - conceivably to signal his girlfriend that he's upset and she should come talk to him. The girl, and her annoyed friends, attempt to continue dancing despite the angry person at thier midst, and the girl refuses to budge - she is here with her friends, and she's not going to stop having fun just because her boyfriend is suffering (and clearly broadcasting it). Nah, he made his choice when he joined her. And it's not like he doesn't have the option of leaving in a dignified manner, right? just pack your stuff, say "I'm going" and walk out, sure, that's not like folding and conceding an argument at all. Even if it was, it's really easy for humans to be publicly humiliated before a group of friends to the one who sort of won and argument against them.
Hack, what if they came in the girl's car? than the boy literally can't escape.
He will get more and more upset as his girlfriend ignores him, and it's impossible not to notice how annoyed her friends are, even if they attempt to conceal it. They obviously feel the boy is a jerk, but if he backs off now, he is conceding that he HAS been a jerk so far. Again, such admittance are really easy to do when surrounded with hostile people.
And all the while, his girlfriend ignores him. Is it any wonder that the boy will get nasty and even call people all sorts of names?
In the story I told, who's at fault? and, how is the story different than the one Hama told us about?
STOP. JUDGING. You all really know NOTHING about the situation, and you insist on seeing it ONLY from a single point if view when there are obviously at least two. And from the possible point of view I described above, not only are the girl's actions understandable (it's a personal choice to determine if they are forgivable, but surely understandable), they also don't stem from being a "witch" or any other "epithet for a self centered irritating... person." So just STOP.
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Hama, I think you should not have shouldered the responsibility of showing Amanda the door.
HER BOYFRIEND SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS.
Since he was the one responsible for her coming, he should have been the one getting her to leave.
IMO, he put you in an awful situation that you did not deserve in any way or shape. You did your best and it clearly got you some undeserved stress.
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Hm, let's see. Lotd Snow, this obviously affects you so i will try to be objective and provide more details.
Two hours before the session, my friend ”Tim” calls me and says that his girlfriend Amanda (whom we have met on an occasion or two) insists that she accompany him to the game. He knows about my no friends/children policy, but that it would be a huge favor to him. I say ok, and go back to session prep. Two hours later, Tim and Amanda arrive last. Everyone is all smiles and politeness.(any normal person wats the SO of their friend to like them, right?) She is also pleasant, we offer snack and fizzy bubleh to her (a bread and salt). I show her around the house and amuse her woth my family history anecdotes.
Then we sit down to game. An hour later I notice that she is exibiting signs of acute boredom. So i offer to have her run a femalr npc or two. She refuses, grows more irksome.
Hour later it escalates into coments about a bunch of grown men playing kids games. Then thry start arguing. Then she starts getting really insulty so i ask her to leave which she does. Then the friend apologizes and bows out. The game ends on a sour note.
i'm sure there was a lot more to it then her being a horrible person and becoming mean when bored. But honestly, I don't care. Its none of my business and they should both be ashamed for dragging their conflict into my home.
And trust me, Tim got an earfull from me, and will most certainly get one come next session.
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Well, Hama, that extra information makes a big difference.
Let me make it clear I never had an issue with you or anything, just with people picking up the "obvious" line of thinking without enough information and rolling from "she acted mean" to "she is a horrible person" kind of state of mind, which bothered me.
Obviously, with your further clarification, it becomes much more reasonable to think that yes, "Amanda" has some issues, like being unable to handle boredom or shake the all too common preconception that roleplaying games are for children. I actually tend to believe that myself.
Anyho, cheers to all, and I hope in subsequent occasions you people will be slower with your judgment!
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In Hama's defense, I felt Hama was pretty clear with the details of what happened the first time. But I appreciate the minor added pieces of information.
And while it's always nice to get both sides of the situation, "I invited someone into my home, tried to be a good host, and they insulted me repeatedly," is enough for me to suggest this person not be invited into their home again (even if there's information missing, it's enough to suggest that the two are not going to get along and thus should not be in each other's homes). It was never just "she is a horrible person" it was always about specifically host-guest courtesies and when not to tolerate a guest.
I would counter, Lord Snow, that you give us the benefit of the doubt as to reading comprehension and being able to make up our own minds for ourselves. I agree with you that jumping to conclusions is a dangerous place to go and there were a few extreme comments, but I don't think most of the reactions here were out of place. Just as you advise us not to be too swift in our judgments, I would turn the advice straight back around on you, and don't immediately jump to the conclusion that we all ran to one side without truly considering the situation and its possible angles.
I believe the OP already came back and reported they got into a big fight when they went home and ended up breaking up... yep, here it is:
Update: they had a screaming match last night. It ended with a breakup. Friend asked when is the next session. Thought i would br happier about this, but I'm really not.
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2. The gamer will submit and agree that relationship = ownership, and you'll never see him again.
That's happened in my gaming group once! Not fun.
I've been both a GM to the tag along, and I've had a tag along, so I've seen both sides. So far most girl/boyfriends that I've GMed for have actually been enthusiastic about it, but we've got one tag along currently that just sits and does nothing. I've made it my personal challenge to see her actually enjoy herself (its not impossible, it's happened I swear!)
On the other hand, I'm the kind of person that loves jumping into stuff (PFS, Conventions, LARP), so I unfortunately tend to bring my SO with me everywhere I go, even if I can tell he's not interested (oh, but there might be other boys there that might talk to me! Can't have that. *eyeroll*).
It can be tough when you spend a ton of time telling your SO to ONLY come if they're interested, and have them claim they are, then to have them act bored/not take anything seriously/ complain while you're at the event (I'm lucky, this only happens occasionally). So try to give some of us the benefit of the doubt >.> we try.
I've been the guy with GF raging along. All three times they said they wanted to see what it was about. 2 outta 3 are still in my gaming group and the last is far far away.
Since we now game at my house I try not to dissuade a tag along but they typically get one chance. I've got a big screen and plenty of movies and games so not a huge issue.
Right now we have 2 kids of gamers my 5 year old who wants dearly to play but has a short attention span. He does get a seat by me however so he can watch and he gets to roll for me a lot. The other is a newborn who comes everyone in a blue moon and usually just sits. Not sure how I would handle another 4-11 year old honestly.
There are so many parents out there that I see that make me wonder why we don't have breeding laws. I was just in Claim Jumpers (an american restaurant) the other day and was with my parents, gf, and daughter. My daughter is 8 months and people from the other table even commented on her being the best behaved child they've ever seen and the manager came up to see her and enjoyed interacting with her. Is some of this natural temperment? Surely, yes. But when she started getting tired and fussy I didn't sit there and let her fuss and cry and bother people. I took her into another unoccupied area of the restaurant and did stuff to keep her calm and quiet.
The table across from us? This couple had a child that must've been at least 3...she was crawling all over the place. Being very loud and distracting and then when her mother took her into the restroom to "correct her" (we all know what that means) she was screaming like she was being murdered and even when she came out was screaming and yelling and making a gigantic scene. The dad just sat there. They had zero control over that child. Now some of this comes with having a kid in the terrible twos and threes..but the way they handled it showed a serious lack of parenting. I can't even imagine how that kid will act out later.
I see way too many stupid, irresponsible parents to think its an isolated few. There's enough young people in prison and dropping out of high school that it sure as hell isn't just a few kids rebelling against good parents. There is a serious parenting problem in this country.
As far as bringing friends/S.O.'s and kids? Just let the Player know that his guest needs to respect the table and not distract him or other people from playing.
I agree for the most part, but you need to understand, that there is a WORLD of difference between raising an 8 month old, and a 3 year old. Be happy the mother took the time to take the child aside and at least attempt to "correct" them. I've seen worse parents not do a thing, and let the kid(s) run wild.
I do agree with you that they should have done something more, instead of just let the child cry and scream, and make a scene. When my oldest was that age, and when she'd throw a fit in a public place, we'd take her and leave.
My youngest is 11 months old, but my oldest is 10 years old. I remember the terrible 2's and 3's, and it was a completely different experience compared to how my 11 month old behaves now.
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Well, Hama, that extra information makes a big difference.
Let me make it clear I never had an issue with you or anything, just with people picking up the "obvious" line of thinking without enough information and rolling from "she acted mean" to "she is a horrible person" kind of state of mind, which bothered me.
Obviously, with your further clarification, it becomes much more reasonable to think that yes, "Amanda" has some issues, like being unable to handle boredom or shake the all too common preconception that roleplaying games are for children. I actually tend to believe that myself.
Anyho, cheers to all, and I hope in subsequent occasions you people will be slower with your judgment!
This isn't a court hearing, this is a case of a terrible house guest with no manners.
Bad guests get the boot. I don't care what their backstory is. If Mother Theresa is at my house cussing out my other guests and making a scene, she gets the boot.
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The story seems pretty clear. I could call the original poster a liar, but I don't think he is, there is too much pain and discomfort at the terrible guest, and I've seen this before. So, still on the side of boot her and move on, game until the sun rises, never look back.
Awful people don't always have to be sympathised with Lord Snow. It doesn't make you an awful person to be clear when, enough is enough.
It's not about anyone being a liar, it's about the same thing looking very different from various perspectives.
I am trying to argue that Hama and his gaming group was caught in the crossfire of what might be a BIG argument - and the argument is not at all about them. The STORY is not about them. It's about a couple fighting.
Hama could have easily failed to share details he may have simply not percieved - for example, the possibility that the girl DID feel a lot of hostility from the gaming group towards her. What is she and her boyfriend were fighting constantly even before that evening, and the rest of the group heard about it and took a collective stand at their friend's side? what if when the girl entered the home where the game took place all she could see were several hostile pairs of eyes? Hama might not have actively done anything, but just by naturally seeing things from a perspective closer to that of his friend, he might have had a hand in stressing the girl out.I'm not trying to say Hama did anything wrong, only that when he's telling us he didn't initiate any hostility... well, that might not be the way that the girl understood things, and Hama would obviously not be able to tell us about that.
And how did everyone decide that it was the girl's fault for taking her steam off at the presence of other people? how do everyone keep failing to see that her boyfriend might have some of the blame as well, for maneuvering her into a position where, while she is upset at him and in emotional turmoil, he is in the presence of friends, in a stranger's...
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
You win a spare set of relativism goggles. For when your current set wear out.
Lord Snow, I think you're missing the main point. The origin of their problems as a couple doesn't matter to the behavior she exhibited. "Balance" in something that never should have been anything that the others there became aware of, doesn't matter. That was for them to deal with. On there time. Not to drag it into a bunch of other peoples lives and screw with them. Anyone who does that, as she did, is a... well I shouldn't say the word here - feel free to insert your own epithet for a self centered irritating... person. What did the OP and the others at the game have to do with this couples personal issues? Why should she take it out on them? They could have done this elsewhere and else when. She chose to start this incident at this time and place. Did she need an audience? Did she feel justified in ruining their time because these people were his friends? What does that say about her? Nothing good. Immature and inconsiderate at best, a lot more at worst.You started off really good - "That was for them to deal with. On there time. Not to drag it into a bunch of other peoples lives and screw with them.". That I can agree with, the fight should have happened in private.
How is the girl more responsible from the gamer? I don't know. Imagine the reverse situation - boy and girl have a fight, and in the middle of the fight the girl declares she and her friends are having a dancing session and she's gonna go, and if the boy wants to be in her company than why, he is welcome to come skulk about in her friend's house. So, angry, the boy does just that, and when he arrives he gets bored with the dance and, still being angry and upset, starts drawing attention to himself - conceivably to signal his girlfriend that he's upset and she should come talk to him. The girl, and her annoyed friends, attempt to continue dancing despite the angry person at thier midst, and the girl refuses to budge - she is here with her friends, and she's not going to stop having fun just because her...
Know nothing?
"You know nothing John Snow".
Had to use it.
Well, Hama, that extra information makes a big difference.
Let me make it clear I never had an issue with you or anything, just with people picking up the "obvious" line of thinking without enough information and rolling from "she acted mean" to "she is a horrible person" kind of state of mind, which bothered me.
Obviously, with your further clarification, it becomes much more reasonable to think that yes, "Amanda" has some issues, like being unable to handle boredom or shake the all too common preconception that roleplaying games are for children. I actually tend to believe that myself.
Anyho, cheers to all, and I hope in subsequent occasions you people will be slower with your judgment!
This isn't a court hearing, this is a case of a terrible house guest with no manners.
Bad guests get the boot. I don't care what their backstory is. If Mother Theresa is at my house cussing out my other guests and making a scene, she gets the boot.
Yep, agreed. The truth of it is clear, the perspectives do not matter when one guest turns on a group trying to game.
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Man, I disagreed with Lord Snow initially, but find myself wanting to get his back -- just because the pack of jackals continuing to gleefully bite chunks off his corpse is nearly as bad as the behavior that the OP was sadly forced to witness.
(Shrug) Well, at least the thread's not in person.
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Man, I disagreed with Lord Snow initially, but find myself wanting to get his back -- just because the pack of jackals continuing to gleefully bite chunks off his corpse is nearly as bad as the behavior that the OP was sadly forced to witness.
(Shrug) Well, at least the thread's not in person.
We're jackals because we pointed something out? I've done the exploratory investigating get all sides kind of thing before, and it usually made matters worse(fighting couples don't like it when people pry).
So, the matter becomes incredibly simple. Someone's being a crappy guest? They get to leave.
I'm really not trying to come off harsh against Lord Snow personally or anything, just sometimes all the prying for info and lawyering is just not worth the hassle. Let the fighting couple fight it out on their own time, not at the game table.
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Most parents aren't well behaved and take it as a personal insult when you tell them to discipline their child...
As a parent who is watchful of other parents and is amongst other parents often, I would say that MOST parents DO discipline their children, and that MOST parents ARE well behaved (though I wonder if you were speaking about their children when you use that term). You can say that there ARE parents who do not pay attention to what their kids are doing, and you can even say MANY parents are negligent. But MANY is NOT MOST. If MOST parents were as inconsiderate as you are pretending them to be, there's likely be a lot more child injuries and deaths. There aren't.
As to how parents take it when you tell them HOW TO PARENT, I'd wager you don't like people telling you how to do your job, how to run your hobby, how to live your life, etc. So again, you need to re-evaluate your thoughts on these matters and consider that your general comments are misguided and self-serving.
As the GM for many years, and the father of a son who will be 13 in a week, I can say that there are children who can come to the game and not be disruptive. My son has been coming to the games (since they are held at our house) since before he was born. With the exception of one single cranky mood when he was about 2 years old, he has been a perfectly well behaved child. He has been helping me roll dice since he was about 6, and is a regular player now.
As to the behavior of the girlfriend in the OP, that's some pretty immature behavior, but it is not necessarily the norm. Some of my best players were once no more than "The Girlfriend." In this case, I wonder how old you all are, especially this girlfriend. Though I am sure there is more to their relationship than her sitting and being a jerk at a game, my own person feeling is that one should not be with somebody who does not appreciate and allow for one's own personal time and one's favorite hobbies. Somebody who cannot accept your little intricacies is somebody who will one day hurt you.
P.S. You should have asked the boyfriend to ask the girlfriend to settle down or leave. This is their issue to hash out. You got yourself involved by... well, by getting involved. That sort of thing can backfire pretty easily. Your player might not take it too well that you try to discipline his woman.
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How is the girl more responsible from the gamer? I don't know. Imagine the reverse situation - boy and girl have a fight, and in the middle of the fight the girl declares she and her friends are having a dancing session and she's gonna go, and if the boy wants to be in her company than why, he is welcome to come skulk about in her friend's house. So, angry, the boy does just that, and when he arrives he gets bored with the dance and, still being angry and upset, starts drawing attention to himself - conceivably to signal his girlfriend that he's upset and she should come talk to him. The girl, and her annoyed friends, attempt to continue dancing despite the angry person at thier midst, and the girl refuses to budge - she is here with her friends, and she's not going to stop having fun just because her...
You are still missing my point. I can't judge who, if anyone, is more responsible / horrible / at fault for their problems. And I don't care. She brought it into other peoples lives. He, apparently other than bringing her, didn't. That's the only point on which judgment can be passed. She did. He didn't. Now, if he had started sniping at her, secure in being around his friends, I'd say "fine, he's a d!ck". But again, he didn't involve his friends, she did. I do think he showed poor judgment in bringing her if they were having problems before this (and I don't know if they were). In the end, the public airing of their issues started with her and it was inflicted on others. Period.
Judging by the additional information Hama provided her issues went deeper than just bad timing, but that's not relevant to my point.
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If it were a simple issue of boredom, she could have read a book, watched tv, did a crossword, taken a walk outside, or whatever. Mature adults can entertain themselves -- heck, even some kids can entertain themselves for extended periods.
But there's clearly a deeper issue here, beyond boredom.
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i'm sure there was a lot more to it then her being a horrible person and becoming mean when bored. But honestly, I don't care. Its none of my business and they should both be ashamed for dragging their conflict into my home.And trust me, Tim got an earfull from me, and will most certainly get one come next session.
That's what I've been looking for this whole thread.
No doubt in my mind that Amanda was out of line.No doubt in my mind that Tim was out of line for bringing her.
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I get what Lord Snow's saying. We don't know the backstory between GF and BF. Understanding other peoples' perspectives, even if we don't share them, is empathy. Among its other benefits, empathy is actually a pretty important GM skill.
However, when she starts acting out in somebody else's home, that backstory becomes irrelevant to the fact that she's being a jerk to a host and his other guests. Time to ask her to leave. Sorry to the BF if it causes him relationship issues; but that's neither our problem, nor our fault, nor our business (our being the host and other guests).
None of that necessarily means that she's a bad person or should be publicly shunned or that friends should stage an intervention with the BF.
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Most parents aren't well behaved and take it as a personal insult when you tell them to discipline their child...As a parent who is watchful of other parents and is amongst other parents often, I would say that MOST parents DO discipline their children, and that MOST parents ARE well behaved (though I wonder if you were speaking about their children when you use that term). You can say that there ARE parents who do not pay attention to what their kids are doing, and you can even say MANY parents are negligent. But MANY is NOT MOST. If MOST parents were as inconsiderate as you are pretending them to be, there's likely be a lot more child injuries and deaths. There aren't.
I was speaking about parents, and when i say that they aren't well behaved i mean that they cannot or will not control their child. Kids can be excused a bit because they mostly don't know any better. But parents do, and have the obligation to teach their child manners. I didn't come to a restaurant to listen to a spoiled brat screaming while his parents (who have certainly to this point learned to tune it out) ignore it and proceed with their dinner. I didn't come to the cinema to watch a movie with children screaming in the background. I don't care if they didn't go out in months. Find a sitter or stay at home if you can't. You have to take your children's BS, i, however do not, and will not. (of course, i am not talking about you, specifically you seem to be a competent parent).
As to how parents take it when you tell them HOW TO PARENT, I'd wager you don't like people telling you how to do your job, how to run your hobby, how to live your life, etc. So again, you need to re-evaluate your thoughts on these matters and consider that your general comments are misguided and self-serving.
I like it when people tell me that i am doing something improperly and then explain how it should be done or how they do it, then i think about what they say, try it and make my own judgement about whether they were full of it or were genuinely helpful. Because i believe that when people give you advice, they do it to help, not to seem superior in some way. And parents with a screaming child obviously are not doing their jobs properly and should be told what to do.
As the GM for many years, and the father of a son who will be 13 in a week, I can say that there are children who can come to the game and not be disruptive. My son has been coming to the games (since they are held at our house) since before he was born. With the exception of one single cranky mood when he was about 2 years old, he has been a perfectly well behaved child. He has been helping me roll dice since he was about 6, and is a regular player now.
Good for you. You seem to be a great parent. Keep up the good work.
As to the behavior of the girlfriend in the OP, that's some pretty immature behavior, but it is not necessarily the norm. Some of my best players were once no more than "The Girlfriend." In this case, I wonder how old you all are, especially this girlfriend. Though I am sure there is more to their relationship than her sitting and being a jerk at a game, my own person feeling is that one should not be with somebody who does not appreciate and allow for one's own personal time and one's favorite hobbies. Somebody who cannot accept your little intricacies is somebody who will one day hurt you.
I'm 26. Most of my friends are a year or two younger and one is 35. The girlfriend is 25. I think that's old enough to know when not to behave like a witch.
P.S. You should have asked the boyfriend to ask the girlfriend to settle down or leave. This is their issue to hash out. You got yourself involved by... well, by getting involved. That sort of thing can backfire pretty easily. Your player might not take it too well that you try to discipline his woman.
It's my home. I will discipline whomever i think is out of line. If they don't like it they can leave, i don't lock the door when there are people inside. And if someone is mean and insulting to my other guests, they should feel lucky i don't throw them out bodily.
Wow... I am a bit late to this but wow.
Clearly their relationship was having issues long before he invited her to your house. Just going off first impressions it sounds like he was ignoring her and not doing stuff with his girlfriend for some amount of time... it usually takes months before the ignored party gets crazy. Her solution was childish and too drama queen in my opinion. "I will get myself invited then stir up trouble when he STILL ignores me to play this silly game." Ok not her literal words I imagine but a fair effort by me to paraphrase.
I am glad you told them both off. They both sound pretty immature. I mean if you are fighting with someone do you really want to invite them to "watch" you do something else?! That can ONLY lead to involving others in your fight. I would never invite someone to watch a game who already had a negative attitude. That's just crazy.
My first game in college was me "watching" others play. It was massively boring at first. But soon I started kibitzing with the players (yeah I know I can't keep my mouth shut) and after the session ended I was invited back as a player this time instead of a watcher. Attitude is the key. Unless you are a Gemini flipping a switch on your current attitude is largely impossible. So don't attend a game (or invite someone) with a bad attitude, really it won't end well.
Unless you are a Gemini flipping a switch on your current attitude is largely impossible.
Heck, I am a Gemini and I can't do it. Sometimes I wish I could.
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I would counter, Lord Snow, that you give us the benefit of the doubt as to reading comprehension and being able to make up our own minds for ourselves. I agree with you that jumping to conclusions is a dangerous place to go and there were a few extreme comments, but I don't think most of the reactions here were out of place. Just as you advise us not to be too swift in our judgments, I would turn the advice straight back around on you, and don't immediately jump to the conclusion that we all ran to one side without truly considering the situation and its possible angles.
Well, without making any assumptions about the thought process which lead to this post, I would point out that the entire issue started with me telling Hama that maybe he shouldn't judge the girl based on her behavior that night because she was obviously fazed and in an unusual situation (or at least, that's how it sounded like to me - given the additional information Hama provided, I will now say he probably has every right to be upset with her). Following that, you and some others were quick to point out what a nasty piece of work the girl is and how inexcusable it is to offend the house, regardless of circumstances. You were condemning a person you don't know based on a picture with too many unfilled holes in it, and that really got me, because it's unfair and conceptually dangerous. Intelligent people (As I know you all are, given previous discussions in the Paizo threads) should not be doing that.
So yeah, I think it's reasonable to assume many of those posting here were reaching conclusions without nearly sufficient data because, frankly, that's what happened. Had those people seen the additional information - which comes to show that the decisions the girl made to come was more of a deliberate one, and that things only got heated when she got bored, and that the evening actually started with smiles and handshakes - only THEN is it reasonable to rule out the possibility that she was "spiteful in self defense". Before that, it's just guesswork, and you always want to be cautious with these.
There's a "razor" (as philosophers like to call it) that I like to use - the "gun to the face" challenge.
Answer me honestly - if the only information you had was Hama's opening post of the thread, and you were held at gunpoint by an all knowing angel of God or something, and the angel told you that you have to say if the girl is a negative person and her actions that night inexcusable - he will shot you unless you told the ABSOLUTE truth. Not an opinion, like "I think anyone who offends a host is a horrible person" - just the most basic, most true thing you can say about the girl from what you know - would anyone here at this thread have said the same things they said here? if not, then surely you must be aware you are at fault for making false assumptions and jumping to conclusions. And doing so to condemn a stranger, no less.
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Wow... I am a bit late to this but wow.
Clearly their relationship was having issues long before he invited her to your house. Just going off first impressions it sounds like he was ignoring her and not doing stuff with his girlfriend for some amount of time... it usually takes months before the ignored party gets crazy. Her solution was childish and too drama queen in my opinion. "I will get myself invited then stir up trouble when he STILL ignores me to play this silly game." Ok not her literal words I imagine but a fair effort by me to paraphrase.
I am glad you told them both off. They both sound pretty immature. I mean if you are fighting with someone do you really want to invite them to "watch" you do something else?! That can ONLY lead to involving others in your fight. I would never invite someone to watch a game who already had a negative attitude. That's just crazy.
My first game in college was me "watching" others play. It was massively boring at first. But soon I started kibitzing with the players (yeah I know I can't keep my mouth shut) and after the session ended I was invited back as a player this time instead of a watcher. Attitude is the key. Unless you are a Gemini flipping a switch on your current attitude is largely impossible. So don't attend a game (or invite someone) with a bad attitude, really it won't end well.
I have noticed that a lot of people read it wrong. Tim didn't bring Amanda because he wanted to. She practically forced him to.
Answer me honestly - if the only information you had was Hama's opening post of the thread, and you were held at gunpoint by an all knowing angel of God or something, and the angel told you that you have to say if the girl is a negative person and her actions that night inexcusable - he will shot you unless you told the ABSOLUTE truth. Not an opinion, like "I think anyone who offends a host is a horrible person" - just the most basic, most true thing you can say about the girl from what you know - would anyone here at this thread have said the same things they said here?
That Angel would be of Evil Alignment for his actions, and his definition of absolute truth would be invalidated.