First off, allow me to say a great big thank you to the entire comunity here - you have all been incredibly kind & helpful in giving advice/answering rules questions any time I've needed it, & I really appreciate it. Thank you very much!
With that said, I have another one for you guys...
I'm starting a small family campaign. There will only be three players, my wife & 2 sons (ages 17 & 9). The characters will be using 25pt buy, & will get max starting wealth.
As the title states, I'm looking for advice on what class to play for a supporting gm-npc. The group will have a dwarf fighter (tank) & an elf magus with Dervish Dance feat (partial controller/2ndary tank) for sure. My oldest son's pc is penciled in as a halfling bard (buffer/ranged/party face). My thinking is to go with something in a divine caster/wisdom based to balance things out - pretty much a controller/buffer type with very little combat.
I was originally thinking of a druid, but it has been suggested that druids aren't as good for this role. I'm open to other suggestions - what type of cleric or oracle would be good here? Also, someone threw out the idea of the bard as the npc, & my son could play an inquisitor or cleric (he is interested in the inquisitor as well) instead.
I'm open to any suggestions & advice on this. However, please be aware that I'm not looking for people to argue that I shouldn't play a gm-npc, or try to talk me out of it. I'm just looking for help on what to play, not whether I should or not. Thanks!
hmmmm, an adept, you say.....
I will have to look into that after work tonight....
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I like the adept idea. They won't overshadow the party and you can give them crafting feats as a mechanism different from a magic mart re: purchases.
Bard is good choice, but not if it's costing your kid his heart's desire.
9 years old is an age where your child may not developmentally distinguish between threats to the character vs threats to himself. Archer or artillery caster may be a thought for him if you see that happening, and bards aren't horrible as archers.
Other thought on your NPC is a knowledge based character in general in order to vector Information to the party in a sage type role. Expert works here, for example.
You can't really go wrong if you think of your NPC as filling some typical NPC roles. You can scale encounters for the smaller party re combat effectiveness. GM-PCs get a bad rap when they overshadow the party, but otherwise are very useful in support roles and for training new players by example.
I think you have already avoided the worst problems of a "GM PC" -- for one, you remembered that he is an NPC intended to accompany the party, not your PC to add to the game. The ideas given so far make a lot of sense -- he should fill in roles that none of your players want to take on themselves but that they would see as important to have in the party. I would second adept as a class choice.
Make sure they love the DMNPC so that you get maximum effect when you kill him off or kidnap him.
Hehehe, the 9yr old is already turning into quite the little gamer. He's playing a gnome summoner in our other campaign. He'll be the dwarf fighter in this set, & is looking forward to kicking some butt with his waraxe!
The older boy has the bard pc - he isn't married to it, but it was growing on him as something different for him to play. An inquisitor would also allow him that & still cover the interaction skills for him to be the party face. Plus, he thought it looked intriguing as well.
I thought the bard as an npc could be effective - mostly ranged combat with the slingstaff, party buffing with the performances, occasional controller with spells & able to pass on whatever info I wanted with the knowledge abilities. My biggest concern was how to downplay the 'face skills' usually associated with the bard - an npcwon't be needing Bluff, Intimidate or Diplomacy (Sense Motive could still be ok).
Going to go look up the Adept now....
Make sure they love the DMNPC so that you get maximum effect when you kill him off or kidnap him.
Yeah, I love doing that kind of stuff with npc's they've gotten to know/grow fond of.... makes things WAY more memorable....
Make him a Cleric. As nice as the "Make him an NPC class!" idea may sound, Cleric is all around more useful to the party and can be made just as much of a non-show-stealer as an Adept.
Just make him a heal/buff bot and he'll be useful, the others will want him around, and he steals no spotlight.
Pretty sad "supporting" the gmpc Is he the director and the star then? Shouldn't he be building to support you and your team?
Conundrum, sometimes I get the feeling that you don't read or speak English very well.
This is one of those times.
Pretty sad "supporting" the gmpc Is he the director and the star then? Shouldn't he be building to support you and your team?oh sorry I withdrew that oh I'm so sorry! I stupid don't mind me I have pea brain. Seriously guy kudos on played with your fam that's awesome. Again apologies my eyes are bad.
Yeah lol touch screen nutshell and poor vision are also a bane to me rynjin but your scorn is well deserved in this case I agree.
Healbot FTW. Honestly, make a cleric and take channelling feats and take buffs, and status effect cures as spells. They have most other things covered so you can be the bandaid and as a bonus you fade into the background in combat.
Make him a Cleric. As nice as the "Make him an NPC class!" idea may sound, Cleric is all around more useful to the party and can be made just as much of a non-show-stealer as an Adept.
Just make him a heal/buff bot and he'll be useful, the others will want him around, and he steals no spotlight.
Just finished looking over the Adept npc, & gotta say it didn't do anything for me. I just don't see it being able to contribute sufficiently to be worth it.
Cleric vs druid vs bard.........
English is my first language but this auto spell feature makes that impossible to determine...lol.
I should clarify - the druid is/was appealing because nobody else in the group would be very strong with things like Perception, Handle Animal or Survival (yes the dwarf fighter has Survival as a class skill, but he won't be all that good at it). None of these are things that should particularly steal the show, but definitely fill some weaknesses in the party.
I'm not as concerned with the need for the whole 'healbot' bit - refer to some of the class guide here for details ( a partially or fully charged Wand of CLW will probably be worked into the group to compensate.
English is my first language but this auto spell feature makes that impossible to determine...lol.
Gotta love AutoCorrect! NOT!!
lol
Blasted auto-correct!
It even affects the people who aren't using it (by making them look like a dick).
I thought the bard as an npc could be effective - mostly ranged combat with the slingstaff, party buffing with the performances, occasional controller with spells & able to pass on whatever info I wanted with the knowledge abilities. My biggest concern was how to downplay the 'face skills' usually associated with the bard - an npcwon't be needing Bluff, Intimidate or Diplomacy (Sense Motive could still be ok).
So how would any of you play/explain a bard support-npc who's not into the personal interaction side of the class? Maybe a musical virtuoso who doesn't like personal interactions, & has a decidedly bookworm/scholarly side to him...?
An interesting idea, but I'd prefer something a little more conventional. Thank you for the suggestion, though!
An interesting idea, but I'd prefer something a little more conventional. Thank you for the suggestion, though!
Just model him after a stereotypical hair-band front man or lead guitarist: make him a narcissistic boozehound who isn't terribly concerned with what his fans have to say to him. He'll sign an autograph, then tell them to shove off.
Another thing you might want to consider, is if you're not going to go the Adept route and use regular PC classes for your NPC, use the 20 pt buy to make him. That way he's good enough to keep up with the party but won't overshadow.
Seriously I'm not sure what everyone's hard-on is with applying restrictions outside of optimization and role. You want this guy to be as useful as possible in his role (support/buff/healing). The role, IN AND OF ITSELF prevents the character from overshadowing others. There is no need whatsoever to artificially limit that further.
As for the Bard, he'd be pretty good as a fan of the adventurers who's following them around to chronicle their bravery in the face of death and so on.
Oracle of Life. Gnome.
And look, see I am not going on my usual soapbox about what a bad idea DMPC's are in general. This seems to be a good exception.
Another thing you might want to consider, is if you're not going to go the Adept route and use regular PC classes for your NPC, use the 20 pt buy to make him. That way he's good enough to keep up with the party but won't overshadow.
I had considered doing something like this, but Rynjin's following post is exactly why I hesitated. I may go with something less extreme, like an extra trait for the pc's.
And look, see I am not going on my usual soapbox about what a bad idea DMPC's are in general. This seems to be a good exception.
LOL, I hope it works out that way. In fairness, we've been in several games that used dmpc's, & I can't honestly recall them overshadowing the players to ever be a real problem. Maybe we're just lucky that way, or maybe we have worked out how to do it within our groups, either way....
Oracle of Life is convenient with a steady spell list it is easier to play which is a good thing.
Mystic Theurge is quite a bit harder in that respect but it has some nice utility spells and buffs for the party without being overpowering, an excellent support character.
If you want it to be fairly weak in comparison and easy to play consider Sorcerer/Oracle/Mystic Theurge.
Well, normally I'd suggest breaking out the 3.5 material and making A commoner with the feats Shape Soulmeld (Lifebold Vestements), Poison Healer, and craft (Poisonmaking).
But you probably don't want to extol the healing benefits of alcohol to a 9 year old.
Grandma (a conservative Catholic) isn't real keen on the game in the first place, so yeah - not so much.... lol
Well, I've narrowed it down ( I think) to 2 scenarios, based off of conversations with my players:
1) My oldest son plays the halfling bard, & I play a human druid. The druid would be more like the old, kooky hermit type who lives out in the woods ( middle-aged for the mental boosts - physical stat reductions not so much a problem here). Drawn in for the 1st adventure when the pc's go off to deal with something that would impact his beloved forest, he surprises the entire town when he announces he'll go with them. Then decides he likes these guys & decides to stick around for a while. Primary contributions in skills like Survival, Healing & Knowledge: Nature (yes, eventually the bard will overtake him with class abilities, but until then the bard can focus on other things). If/when we get to wildshaping, he goes more for the native woodland critters rather than big combat-oriented choices - casting spells to help while staying out of the way. A perfect candidate for the big dramatic death scene at the hands of a BBEG later on down the road to add gravitas to the whole thing.
2) My son takes a human Inquisitor of Desna & the npc is the halfling bard. In this case, the bard has the Ingratiating racial trait, coming from a long line of enslaved halflings (even though he is free). The bonus to Perform is helpful, and he can drop a skill point or two in a Craft/Profession skill like Cooking or something. Due to the racial trait, he might take a dip into Sense Motive & possibly Bluff, but has no desire to handle party interactions/negotiations. The knowledge skills & related class abilities give me the perfect ability to give the party info as needed - years of listening to the big people, as well as reading up on everything could during downtime, have made him quite the knowledge monkey. The bardic spells can also come in handy for party support, & he can provide some ranged support with his slingstaff. Also a good candidate for the dramatic death scene later, or getting captured, etc (don't want to overdo it, though or it wears thin quickly).
Of the two, I believe my oldest son prefers option 2, as he is more interested in the Inquisitor right now, but he does think the Bard could be fun. So that's where I'm leaning. Healing shouldn't be a major issue here, as both the Bard & the Inquisitor have CLW on their spell list, & the Magus has UMD - so 3 of the 4 party members can use a Wand of CLW. Plus, the Inquisitor has the Heal skill, & cn also deal with other debilitating effects.
I'm going to repeat the suggestion for healing based cleric. Don't need to add any damaging ability, and will keep them alive to do what they find fun, beating monsters to death :)
If you play the halfling as a GM NPC, consider the helpful trait, and the lucky halfling feat. Both great for a support character. You could also have a look at taking your bard into the Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class. Especially their first level ability is awesome imo, but they sound pretty helpful to have around in general.
Lucky Halfling was easy to find, but I haven't had any luck so far with the Helpful trait (maybe I need a Lucky Halfling here, lol)...
In my own small game (only two players), I actually did make one house rule to better make a (casting) support character: I created a mute flaw that allows you to cast spells as though with the Silent Spell feat without an increase in casting time or spell level. The flaw is permanent, and cannot be fixed with magic (short of plot training it in, at which point it's a group decision). Then I made him a bard specializing in the bongos and harmonica.
This makes him a fantastic support caster, and I gave him a bow (he'll never be as good at damage as the gunslinger or the magus) to shoot things with while he's not casting. Being mute keeps him from having face time with the other NPCs (something all three of us wanted to avoid), and the best way I can optimize him causes him to make the other two better (so he's never overshadowing them). Working out fantastically so far.
Benefit: Whenever you successfully perform an aid another action, you grant your ally a +4 bonus instead of the normal +2.
I find it interesting how I keep getting suggestions for the healbot cleric, after saying I'm not really interested in it and don't see it as necessary in my campaign... Not that I don't appreciate the feedback/input (because I do), but when someone tells me they aren't interested in/don't want something for their game that was suggested, I generally move on to how to help that person work out what they do want - not keep telling them to use what they've already rejected....
Now if someone can give me ideas for a controller/party support cleric who ISN'T a healbot, I might take a look & think about it....
Even though my son might prefer the inquisitor over the bard, I feel the bard may fit into the game concept better (part of the concept behind this campaign is for the players to broaden their horizons in regards to the types of characters played - my son generally plays striker-type pc's, so a switch to a support-based pc could be interesting for him). I'm not totally opposed to a cleric (except the healbot, of course), I just haven't been able to come up with a scenario for one that piques my interest or feels like "yeah, that's it!" so far. Which maybe you all can help me with. :)
Benefit: Whenever you successfully perform an aid another action, you grant your ally a +4 bonus instead of the normal +2.
Thanks - any idea where it's located (just for curiosity's sake)?
Edit: Sorry, missed the link in your comment at first - Halflings of Golarion it is. Thanks again!
Race Traits, Halfing. Halflings of Golarion book.
Aasimaar (Angelkin) Life Oracle from blood of angels with the Deaf curse. reskin the Deaf curse as ADHD.
Base it off either Angel Trainee Flonne or Colette Brunel
No armor, however a predominantly white outfit is fine
Oblivious (Dump Wisdom)
Remember to trip over the Mcguffin as a form of disguised method of giving advice. whether it be the lever to escape, or the switch turn off the traps.
make her mostly a healbot with buff and battlefield control spells. but don't neglect combat.
Lumiere said Remember to trip over the Mcguffin as a form of disguised method of giving advice. whether it be the lever to escape, or the switch turn off the traps.
I had a similar idea in mind with the druid.
Also, as an fyi, the npc will be a human male if it's not the halfling bard. Sorry if I didn't mention that before - another concept in the game is to only use the original 4 races from the old D&D classic game. Elf & dwarf are already covered, so one of us gets the halfling & the other gets the human. Maybe a silly thing, but we kinda liked it....