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Given this FAQ, if you're dispelling a slow spell with haste, no one gets the haste, it only dispels. So what happens when you don't dispel?
Situation: Ezren, Merisiel, Kyra, and Valeros walk down a dungeon hall. Sudden Karzoug the naughty wizard turns the corner and, surprise, casts slow on the group. Everyone except Valeros makes their Will saves.
Initiative is rolled, and Ezren amazingly goes first. Deciding Merisiel really needs a boost to go take out that wizard, he casts haste on everyone in the group. Valeros goes next.
Is he:
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Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
So, no making a full-attack while slowed.
I would go with your interpretation of hasted and slowed. +1 and -1 cancel, limited to standard action, only can take a single move but gets the +30' for it. No full-attacks however.
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I rule they suppress each other, but they are both still active. So if one duration runs out before the other then whatever is left takes affect. Under this ruling a 2nd haste/slow wont help because haste/slow does not stack. That also makes sure dispelling it actually has a benefit since if you use one to dispel the other, the dispelled one actually goes away and the next haste or slow has a benefit.
PS:I dont think there is a RAW answer, and this came up in a game I ran last night so I will FAQ it.
Hmm... so the proposal is that being affected by two spells that counter/dispel the other results in mutual suppression.
This would work well for things like a permanent slow effect (zombies, some curse) with a temporary haste spell. And would allow buffing the party instead of dispelling one person to have both a reasonable effect, and still be more debilitating for the one (or more) slowed person(s) than if a dispel had been used.
Works very well for Bless/Bane too.
Tarantula: Slow also cuts speed in half, so unless normal movement was over 60' (without enhancement bonuses), the single move option would be at normal rate (halved, then +30 up to "double").
Ah you're right. That's what I get for skimming.
Very easy to forget (it effectively quarters your speed!), as I did just now in the Pounce thread. (*after correcting you here*) :)
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Neither he nor I were talking about dispelling, Malachi. This thread is specifically about when you DON'T dispel. Didn't you read the OP?
I have a feeling that you don't have the option of casting haste and slow 'normally' or 'to dispel'. The info provided in the magic section of the Core rulebook, the spell descriptions, and the FAQ appear to lead to only one outcome. If at least one creature is affected by a haste spell and a slow spell, both spells are immediately dispelled for anyone affected by either.
See the bold sections below.
Combining Magic Effects
Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell's description.
Haste dispels and counters slow.
Slow counters and dispels haste.
No, all of your spell is used to counter all of the targeted spell, there is no "spillover" from your spell that you can apply to your allies.
For example, if an enemy sorcerer's slow spell affects your fighter ally, and you cast haste as a dispel on slow, the slow ends and nobody gains haste. The same would be true regardless of how many of your allies were affected by that slow spell.
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Neither he nor I were talking about dispelling, Malachi.Neither was I. I was referring to the 'counter' part.
Also not what this thread is about; countering is when you cast your spell as counterspell via a readied action to interrupt the opponent while they're casting. We're talking about when one spell has already been successfully cast and you then cast its opposite later on.
The FAQ addressed counterspelling. Not casting opposites on the same creatures.
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Way I read the FAQ, if Haste affects even one of the creatures affected by Slow, both spells fizzle and everybody is back to normal (no one Hasted and no one Slowed).
So it's your assertion that when the FAQ says "if you cast haste as a dispel on slow", it actually means "any time you cast haste with a target who happens to be affected by slow"?
Interesting.
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The FAQ addressed counterspelling. Not casting opposites on the same creatures.What FAQ are you reading? The one linked by the OP never mentions countering, and very explicitly talks about casting opposites on the same creatures as a dispel.
Re-reading the FAQ I realize where I went wrong.
Assuming you and your friends have been slowed by the BBEG on round 1, and it is now round 2 and your turn and you are going to cast Haste. You have 2 options
1) Cast haste normally and provide the bonuses listed
- The effect will be the targets are both hasted and slowed, with the benefits/drawbacks of both.
OR
2) Cast haste to dispel the current ongoing Slow
- The effect will be that the slow spell is immediately ended, the same as if you had cast dispel magic and succeeded on the caster check. No haste bonuses are applied.
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I have a feeling that you don't have the option of casting haste and slow 'normally' or 'to dispel'....you cast haste as a dispel...
Jiggy, I see your point. I did not notice that portion of the FAQ.
I think the FAQ is wrong and here is why. The Combining Magic Effects states "some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell's description." Both haste and slow state that they dispel each other.
I think the FAQ SHOULD read as:
For example, if an enemy sorcerer's slow spell affects your fighter ally, and you cast haste, the slow ends and nobody gains haste. The same would be true regardless of how many of your allies were affected by that slow spell.
Without the above change to the FAQ, there are conflicting guidelines on how these spells interact.
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I'd rule that the two spells give the person(or party) in question a stroke.
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The FAQ in question addresses a situation where a haste is specifically cast as a substitute for dispel magic when targeting a creature affected by slow.
But that is not the situation in the OP!
Although it is possible to use haste to dispel slow (and vice versa), and it is also possible to use one spell to counterspell the other (rather than having to use the same spell), the OP is talking about casting both haste and slow normally, not as a dispel or as a counterspell.
I contend that a creature, while affected by both spells, should act as if affected by neither! The very fact that they are both hasted and slowed cancels out (without either spell being dispelled), without any game affects applying.
You don't apply haste modifiers AND slow modifiers; you apply NEITHER while both spells are in effect!
My justification comes from 'Haste dispels and counters slow.', and vice versa. Specifically, the 'counters' part.
We don't disagree that one can be used to dispel the other, nor do we disagree that one can be used to counterspell the other.
Trouble is, the 'Haste dispels and counters slow' line has been in The World's Oldest Role-Playimg Game since way before the counterspell mechanic first appeared in 3rd edition! So, what did 'Haste counters slow' mean before counterspelling existed? It meant that both spells effectively cancel out when on the same creature. Not dispels, but they cancel each other while both durations persist. Without the counterspell mechanic, what else could 'Haste counters slow' mean?
That line appeared unchanged between editions, and the appearance of the counterspell mechanic didn't take that meaning away, it added the counterspelling option to these spells.
I believe that the language of both spells (one counters and dispels the other) means that while any creature is affected by both then neither affects him. The fact that neither spell was cast to deliberately target the other spell means that the FAQ is not relevant.
That is effectively how my suppression idea works.
I rule they suppress each other, but they are both still active.Based on what? I'm not aware of any rules which state or imply such an interaction. Why wouldn't both spells simply do what they say they do? Did I miss something in the Magic chapter?
I said "I rule.." I also went on to say "I dont think there is a RAW answer"
In short: There is no rule for it, but that is what makes sense to me for now.
edit:not being snarky, just clarifying.
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So what you're saying is that "Haste counters and dispels slow" means more things than that haste counters and dispels slow?
Somehow I don't find myself convinced.
You being hard to convince doesn't make me wrong.: )
It doesn't say 'haste may be used to counter slow', it says 'haste counters slow'. This indicates that this 'countering' is beyond the control of any caster (counterspelling is a deliberate readied action), it is simply the result of both spells affecting the same creature.
Remember, it said 'haste counters slow' long before the mechanic of counterspelling existed, so the phrase cannot be limited to meaning counterspelling!
In that case, what's your reasoning process that leads you to believe it should involve adding a suppression effect instead of simply applying both spells' effects?
1 its easier.
2 slow's restriction to a standard action would overpower the extra attack while making a full attack since you can never make that full attack. I see it as these two being opposites. The suppression idea keeps them even. Without checking the book I think the other bonuses and penalties even out to include the effects related to speed.
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So what you're saying is that "Haste counters and dispels slow" means more things than that haste counters and dispels slow?
Somehow I don't find myself convinced.
You being hard to convince doesn't make me wrong.: )
It doesn't say 'haste may be used to counter slow', it says 'haste counters slow'. This indicates that this 'countering' is beyond the control of any caster (counterspelling is a deliberate readied action), it is simply the result of both spells affecting the same creature.
Remember, it said 'haste counters slow' long before the mechanic of counterspelling existed, so the phrase cannot be limited to meaning counterspelling!
Now under my ruling if you used to dispel both spells cease to exist.
If just cast, but not as a dispel then both are still active but they cancel each other out. <--- Is that how you view the "counter"?
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In that case, what's your reasoning process that leads you to believe it should involve adding a suppression effect instead of simply applying both spells' effects?1 its easier.
2 slow's restriction to a standard action would overpower the extra attack while making a full attack since you can never make that full attack. I see it as these two being opposites. The suppression idea keeps them even. Without checking the book I think the other bonuses and penalties even out to include the effects related to speed.
If having both spells active suppresses them both, then why would you ever use the dispel option? Same action/resource cost, still removes the undesired effect, but kicks in a beneficial effect if the undesired spell runs out of duration first (and it will, since it was cast first) and allows "spillover" to other targets who don't need the suppression - something the dispel option doesn't give you.
Can that really be right?
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What's more, when two possible interpretations seem possible in reading the RAW, choose the interpretation that makes sense!
We have a creature affected by both haste and slow. One makes you act more quickly, the other makes you act more slowly. Everything about the way the spells interact indicates that they are equal and opposite (one counters the other). It makes sense that a creature who acts more quickly and more slowly by the same amount is acting as if acting at normal speed!
If you were to apply both conditions rather than neither, strange things would happen. The +1 to attack, AC and reflex saves would cancel out with the -1 to attack, AC and reflex saves, so no problem there.
You would get an extra attack when using the full attack action, but you would be denied full attack actions! Hardly equal but opposite! In this case the penalty from slow still works in full but the bonus from haste can never be used!
Worse, the speed modifiers. Haste gives +30-feet speed, but slow halves speed. My barbarian has a speed of 40-feet. Hasted he moves at 70-feet. If he is slowed that becomes 35-feet. But wait! If he is slowed his speed is halved to 20-feet, then hasted it becomes 50-feet!
So, is my speed 35-feet or 50-feet?
If the consequences of being affected by both (equal and opposite) spells don't result in parity, then you're doing it wrong.
Here's another way to look at it. It is not "counterspells or dispels X" it is "counters and dispels X"
So, you can a) ready an action and use it as a counterspell for the casting of X if appropriate.
OR B) When cast, use it as a dispel magic of the spell.
The other option would be C) Cast it normally and apply both effects.
Nothing says you cannot do C, and C is the normal option for casting a spell when the target is not effected by an opposite spell. For simplicity, in my games I will run it this way: if the target is under the effect of an opposite spell, it is dispelled (yes, even if the caster doesn't know).
For example: The adventuring group is on their way down the dungeon to attack the BBEG Sneaky the Wizard. They unfortunately stepped on a pressure plate alerting Sneaky to their presence. Sneaky decides this is a good time to buff his minions as the adventurers are only 2 rounds away. First, he casts invisibility on himself, as it's his favorite spell. Second he casts haste on his minions because he really is that mean.
Now, the PCs come around the corner, nobody is surprised, and initiative is rolled. The PC Diviner the Wizard goes first, because he loves initiative bonuses. He see's the nice clump of minions and thinks, "I know what will help us, a Slow spell." He proceeds to cast the spell, and as it takes effect, he realizes instead of slowing the minions, he successfully dispelled their haste, which he did not even know they had! He calls out to the group, "They have an arcane caster! Be careful!" and the combat round continues.
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If just cast, but not as a dispel then both are still active but they cancel each other out. <--- Is that how you view the "counter"?
Precisely!
Neither is dispelled. Both spells continue their normal duration. While affected by both, the effects of each spell counter the effects of the other, resulting in the creature acting as if neither spell affected him.
I rule they suppress each other, but they are both still active. So if one duration runs out before the other then whatever is left takes affect. Under this ruling a 2nd haste/slow wont help because haste/slow does not stack. That also makes sure dispelling it actually has a benefit since if you use one to dispel the other, the dispelled one actually goes away and the next haste or slow has a benefit.
PS:I dont think there is a RAW answer, and this came up in a game I ran last night so I will FAQ it.
I like this response best, although I must admit that I don't much expect a FAQ request to get an answer. The two spells are thematic opposites, but not mirror opposites (I don't know how the mirror opposite of a spell could truly exist anyway). The GM should make a call on the fly. The rules are incapable of covering every circumstance, and it is assumed that the GM makes decisions when new situations arise. An interpretation where the two spells' effects exist side by side is RAW I suppose, but I could not in good conscious follow that. wraithstrike's suppression idea retains the themes of the spells, with a nod to the more tangible abstract of duration. Deciding that one spell simply negates the other is a more crude decision, but equally as legitimate in the big picture.
My thought is it doesn't say "counters and negates" or "counters and suppresses" but "counter and dispels". Therefore, it should function like an automatic dispel magic against its opposite.
Those that can negate, have specific text to indicate it.
The example here is daylight:
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
So, if the two effects have been cast on different objects and then are brought together, such that the areas overlap, we are provided rules for what happens.
In contrast, you can't bring a hasted creature and a slowed creature together, and get an area of overlap. No rules are provided, because when the opposite is cast on the same creature, it dispels the other spell.
To continue with the daylight example, if you and your party were walking along, and then a drow popped out and cast darkness on a pebble nearby, you would be in dark lighting conditions. If your cleric then cast daylight, he could either a) cast it on an object, resulting in overlapping areas with the effects suppressed as specified in the spell (say that 3 times fast) or b) dispel the darkness with the daylight spell.
Since haste/slow don't specify what happens when both effect the same creature, I rule they automatically dispel instead.
Jiggy, Tarantula basically said the exact same thing as you :)
He didn't say that other spells work the same way as daylight; he said that daylight has special wording, unlike other spells, and thus the other spells should not work the same way.
***
That said, I disagree with his final interpretation. Nothing about the "counters and dispels" line suggests that casting the spell automatically does one of those two things when applicable. You have to choose when you cast the spell if you want to use that option, otherwise the spell would have its normal effect.
RAW, that probably means both effects would function normally, which would essentially mean you were staggered, but could move faster.
In my games, I think I would rule the same way wraithstrike does, because that makes more sense to me. It hasn't come up yet, though.
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I'll throw out another option, which I don't think has been presented yet. Why wouldn't Haste dispel Slow on the characters who are Slowed, but work normally on the characters who are not Slowed? Does it say anywhere in the rules that it wouldn't still affect additional targets?
Remember, Dispel Magic only targets one creature/effect. If 2 members of a party are affected by a Slow spell, wouldn't you have to dispel the effect on each of them? Or would a single Dispel Magic dispel it on both? I've always seen it played that each target needs to be dispelled separately.
So, in the example, if Valeros is the only one Slowed, when Haste is cast, targeting the entire group, the Slow on Valeros would be dispelled, he would return to his normal movement with no extra attack and no spell affecting him, and the rest of the group would gain the effect of Haste. A second Haste (or Slow) could then affect Valeros, since neither Haste nor Slow is affecting him.
If Valeros and Ezren were Slowed, and both were targets of the Haste (which, unlike Dispel Magic, has multiple targets), then the Slow would be dispelled on Valeros and on Ezren, and the rest of the group would gain the benefit of Haste.
Isn't that simpler and more in line with the rules than suppressing the effect?
"One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant
I'm sorry, is this a rules quote or your opinion?
Ferious, I agree with the way you run it. Creatures affected by slow would have it dispelled off of them by haste, while creatures who made their save would get the haste benefits.
This is in contrast to countering slow(as it is cast) with haste(via ready action), where both spells are expended, and no effect happens.
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Just to add onto that... the difference between this situation and, say, Deeper Darkness and Daylight, is that those spells are area effect spells, which Haste and Slow affect a number of targets. So the status of the effects on each target should be resolved separately.
You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire).
So one spell affecting the target. I guess the question is, once a spell is cast that affects multiple targets, is it still a single spell, or is it a separate effect on each target? If it's one spell, then casting dispel magic on any one character affected by that spell should dispel it for all of them, no matter how far away they are. If it's a separate effect at that point, then since it's not an area effect, it would have to be dispelled off of each of them.
Haste just happens to have multiple targets. Nothing I've seen in the dispelling mechanic changes that. So it can dispel the Slow effect off any of its targets that are suffering it, but it can still target other characters, and there's no reason I can see why it wouldn't affect them like normal.
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"One Effect Makes Another IrrelevantI'm sorry, is this a rules quote or your opinion?
Ferious, I agree with the way you run it. Creatures affected by slow would have it dispelled off of them by haste, while creatures who made their save would get the haste benefits.
This is in contrast to countering slow(as it is cast) with haste(via ready action), where both spells are expended, and no effect happens.
Yes, exactly.
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Way I read the FAQ, if Haste affects even one of the creatures affected by Slow, both spells fizzle and everybody is back to normal (no one Hasted and no one Slowed).So it's your assertion that when the FAQ says "if you cast haste as a dispel on slow", it actually means "any time you cast haste with a target who happens to be affected by slow"?
Interesting.
You are right as always :-)
I should have added that this is what happens when you are specifically casting the Haste to dispel a Slow.
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I'll throw out another option, which I don't think has been presented yet. Why wouldn't Haste dispel Slow on the characters who are Slowed, but work normally on the characters who are not Slowed? Does it say anywhere in the rules that it wouldn't still affect additional targets?
It says exactly that in the FAQ mentioned by the OP : "For example, if an enemy sorcerer's slow spell affects your fighter ally, and you cast haste as a dispel on slow, the slow ends and nobody gains haste. The same would be true regardless of how many of your allies were affected by that slow spell."
The same Haste spell cannot both dispel Slow on some characters and give Haste to others.
It is amusing that this thread was created yesterday when we had the exact same situation happen last sunday (and we ruled it exactly like Ferious proposed).
In all honesty, the thing is that casting a Slow then a Haste to dispel it should have the same results as casting a Haste then a Slow to dispel it. The way we ruled it does not allow that. The FAQ does exactly that.
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Casting a spell specifically to dispel its opposite is a different thing than casting a spell normally.
Normally, haste affects 1 creature/level, but if used to dispel slow then it doesn't affect any creature at all! It affects one spell on one creature.
The FAQ was about using one spell to specifically dispel another. The FAQ was simply not about casting a spell normally on creatures, some of which may be under the effect of the opposite spell. The FAQ is silent on this issue!
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I'll throw out another option, which I don't think has been presented yet. Why wouldn't Haste dispel Slow on the characters who are Slowed, but work normally on the characters who are not Slowed? Does it say anywhere in the rules that it wouldn't still affect additional targets?It says exactly that in the FAQ mentioned by the OP : "For example, if an enemy sorcerer's slow spell affects your fighter ally, and you cast haste as a dispel on slow, the slow ends and nobody gains haste. The same would be true regardless of how many of your allies were affected by that slow spell."
The same Haste spell cannot both dispel Slow on some characters and give Haste to others.
It is amusing that this thread was created yesterday when we had the exact same situation happen last sunday (and we ruled it exactly like Ferious proposed).
In all honesty, the thing is that casting a Slow then a Haste to dispel it should have the same results as casting a Haste then a Slow to dispel it. The way we ruled it does not allow that. The FAQ does exactly that.
Yeah, sorry. It was late, and I didn't reread the FAQ carefully. That... makes things very complicated. :) Which, of course, is why this thread exists.
RAW, then, unfortunately, you'd apply the effects of both spells, which I think would end up with the Slowed character still only getting a standard and no move action.
The FAQ does also seem to indicate the opposite of what I thought with regards to multitarget spells being treated as individual effects once they are in place. If you dispel the Slow, apparently that will dispel it for everyone that is affected, per this line, "The same would be true regardless of how many of your allies were affected by that slow spell." So, at least there's that. The implications are interesting, because if that's right, you could dispel a Haste on someone who is near you, and no matter how far their teammate has run using their Hasted speed, it's still the same spell, so it would get dispelled on both of them. Same goes for something like Communal Resist Energy or any multi-target spell with a duration.