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I saw a DM coup de grace a character that had failed it's save against Icy Prison while I was at a con last weekend.
The spell says you are helpless, but it also says that the layers of Ice block line of effect.
You are covered in an inch of ice per caster lvl, so a minimum of 9 inches. If you can't draw a line to the target to cast, say, magic missle, I would say you couldn't even attack the helpless character without breaking the ice first. Certainly not coup de grace.
Thoughts?
sounds pretty sketchy to me that a dm would allow this... but i've seen alot of "horror" stories, on here, about gm's and consistency.
It seems pretty obvious that if you don't have line of effect you can't coup de grace.
Just hoping for an official response.
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I agree, no CdG without breaking through the ice first. It is effectively total cover until the ice is broken.
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That's right in the spell description: "You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target)."
As for Coup de Grace, the spell doesn't say it breaks line of sight so you can still see the target and aim your attack. The trapped victim is Helpless so he qualifies as a target for a coup de grace. Since he's qualified and you can see him, you should be able to make the coup de grace - there don't seem to be any rules preventing it.
So the only question is what to do with the ice?
The ice has hardness 0 and 3 HP/inch, so at minimum level it would have 27 HP. Seems to me that you should be able to aim your coup de grace and roll your attack and critical hit, subtracting the 27 HP (or whatever HP for higher level casters) and then apply the rest to the victim as any normal coup de grace. This part is GM choice, of course.
Or another interpretation might be that all you can do is attack the ice - even if you break it with 100 HP damage, all that does is REALLY shatter the ice and set the victim free - he gets none of the damage. If that's the ruling, then a Coup de Grace wouldn't work. But there is no RAW supporting that either.
I guess both are valid, but I tend to prefer not adding rules when I can just use the existing rules. Existing RAW says a coup de grace should be applicable, just figure out the ice, while having the ice block ALL damage is really adding a rule that isn't there.
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If you attack the ice then you're not attacking/CdGing the target.
You can't CdG ice.
Even if you could somehow attack both, ice is not subject to critical hits.
If the spell description says the target is covered in several inches of ice, you can't interpret that as not covered in ice! If he's covered in ice, then that ice is a barrier between you and you target. No line of effect.
I'm pretty sure CdG still needs line of effect. Otherwise you CdG through a wall of force. It would be like attacking through a readied tower shield.
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As I said earlier, it is total cover.
Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Until the ice is broken, you cannot make an attack against the character in the ice.
I saw a DM coup de grace a character that had failed it's save against Icy Prison while I was at a con last weekend.
The spell says you are helpless, but it also says that the layers of Ice block line of effect.
You are covered in an inch of ice per caster lvl, so a minimum of 9 inches. If you can't draw a line to the target to cast, say, magic missle, I would say you couldn't even attack the helpless character without breaking the ice first. Certainly not coup de grace.
Thoughts?
With no line of effect you basically have total cover. It would be not different than if an invisible wall of force was in the way. Being able to see the target, does not mean you can attack the target.
Icy Prison
You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition but can otherwise act normally. Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice. The ice has hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness; if broken, the creature is freed. A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level).
If the creature is in the Icy Prison the creature has total cover and can't be attacked. If you break through the ice, the creature is freed and no longer helpless.
There is absolutely no way to Coup de Gras a creature using this spell.
Speaking of Icy Prison and Coup De Grace, what would happen if a Vampire (like a Moroi or a Nosferatu) got trapped in the icy prison spell outside within a hour or two from dawn? When the sun comes up, do they die a painfully slow death (made all the more agonizing by the fact that their frozen)?
Not necessarily, this could be a form of cryogenic freezing (unless that requires oxygen too).
I could be wrong on this but I do believe cryogenic stasis only slows down the body's rate of growth/decay/metabolism to very Very VERY low levels (in theory, a healthy human adult of 23 years could possibly stay alive in cryo-stasis for over 12,000 years before his or her body gives out).
A being will still need to breathe the atmosphere it's used to but only at a tiny fraction of the rate it would normally do so when in rem sleep (aka the rate of breathing is extraordinarily slowed but not stopped because if it were halted the being would die).\
As for Icy Prison, the rules don't give enough info for us to draw a conclusion for this.
I know how you breath while stopped by ice prison. Magic! A witch did it.
I don't think you can coup de' grace though. If the thick layer of ice is meant to stop melee right? Why would it let you coup de' grace the guy inside? Seems a little ridiculous, but at that level there are far worse things.
Since the ice blocks Line of Effect, I would say the sunlight does not have LoE to the vampire.
Now, you could break the ice and he would then be in the daylight.
Sidenote: Icy Prison only lasts minutes/level. I can't imagine they would be hanging out in the daylight that close to dawn.
I know how you breath while stopped by ice prison. Magic! A witch did it.
BAH! YOUR WITCHES ARE NOTHING COMPARED TO THE POWER OF
Since the ice blocks Line of Effect, I would say the sunlight does not have LoE to the vampire.
Now, you could break the ice and he would then be in the daylight.
Sidenote: Icy Prison only lasts minutes/level. I can't imagine they would be hanging out in the daylight that close to dawn.
It's ice. You can see through it, so i would rule sunlight can go through it. You don't have line of effect through a wall of force either but gaze attacks still work.
Sidenote: Icy Prison only lasts minutes/level.
(rolls eyes) Why am I not surprised. They made all the buffs last only minutes per level so why not nerf the evocation spells as well.
I can't imagine they would be hanging out in the daylight that close to dawn.
True but night time can only last so long (depending on the season and location it can be less than 12 hours). Plus Vampires are of course not immune to being blinded by rage. Piss one off enough and I'm willing to bet it will risk being caught in a fight outside within a hour or two away from daybreak.
Admittedly, I could see the coup-de-grace, only because of Sub-Zero from Mortal Kombat. Freeze them, then kick them so they shatter...
...but I feel that's not the intent of Icy Prison
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Are we having some confusion between Icy Prison the sorc/wizard spell and Ice Tomb, the Witch hex?
If it's Icy Prison, you don't need to coup de grace - the subject is taking CL in cold damage every melee round... It works our to CL*CL*10 damage. At CL 9 (the lowest possible, 5th level spell), that's 810 hp. Unless the subject is immune/highly cold resistant, what have you targeted that needs a coup de grace?
If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition but can otherwise act normally. Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice.
81 hp.
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You are right, 810 hp of damage in 810 rounds. I hadn't checked the duration and thought it was rounds/level.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
What happen if someone can teleport away with an action that don't require physical movement but purely a mental action (like most demons and devils teleport ability)?
It will bring the icy prison with him or leave it behind?Personally I think it will leave it behind.
I'll just leave a dot here...
Could someone link a quote of Icy Prison itself?
It should make analyzing this issue easier for everyone here.
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Icy Prison
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (10 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level; see text
Saving Throw Reflex partial Spell Resistance yes
You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition but can otherwise act normally. Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice. The ice has hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness; if broken, the creature is freed. A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level).
And the hex?
Given that this thing's duration doesn't mention anything about reduction due to heat, could this be used as a temporary means of protecting yourself in the elemental plane of fire? Teleport yourself and a foe there, encase yourself in an icy prison and wait out his short and painful death and then hit yourself with a spell to protect against the heat or just leave.
The fire on the plane of fire can easily deal damage to the icy prison, ending the normal effect but entangling you.
At CL 10 the ise has 30 hp and a hardness of 0. I don't know how much damage you're dealt for being on the plane of fire but I don't think 30hp will make much difference.
Technically you could Coup De Grace someone in Icy prison but it would take several rounds instead of 1 full round. So if they were the only one there. yes he could... If they have a group with him there would be so many rounds involved...So just how, technically, does one take several rounds to complete a full round action?
Turn 1:
Use your move action doing something like pulling a potion or moving up to the person you want to CdG.Use your standard action to "start a full-round action".
Turn 2:
Use your standard action to "complete a full-round action".
Use your move action to move away from the now probably dead character.
I still don't think this gets around the LoE=total cover and cannot be targeted with an attack issue.
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Technically you could Coup De Grace someone in Icy prison but it would take several rounds instead of 1 full round. So if they were the only one there. yes he could... If they have a group with him there would be so many rounds involved...So just how, technically, does one take several rounds to complete a full round action?Turn 1:
Use your move action doing something like pulling a potion or moving up to the person you want to CdG.Use your standard action to "start a full-round action".
Turn 2:
Use your standard action to "complete a full-round action".
Use your move action to move away from the now probably dead character.
I still don't think this gets around the LoE=total cover and cannot be targeted with an attack issue.
You are forgetting this:
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.
The "start a full-round action" standard action can be use only if you are limited to a standard action and no move action during your turn.
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.The "start a full-round action" standard action can be use only if you are limited to a standard action and no move action during your turn.
No. The start a full-round action can be used on any full-round action allowed that is not full-attack/charge/run or withdraw.
There are some full-round actions whose descriptions allows you to use them as a standard action when your actions are limited. The only one I know of is charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
The "start a full-round action" standard action can be use only if you are limited to a standard action and no move action during your turn.
I'm afraid that are incorrect here, and the part of your quote that I bolded is the part where you went astray.
The "Start full round action" and "Complete full round action" actions are not full round actions; they are standard actions and can, therefore, be used any time a standard action can be used.
Read the part I bolded:
"but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round."
I don't get how you two can go around dismissing it.
Read the part I bolded:
"The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option."
I don't get how you think it applies to all actions, when it states that the action itself will specifically call out if it can be used as a standard when restricted to standard. The only example I know of is Charge.
Read the part I bolded:
"but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round."
I don't get how you two can go around dismissing it.
You misinterpreting that quote.
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions,
This is not referring to starting a full-round action as a standard action, but taking a full-round action as a standard action, as can be done with the Charge action.
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Read the part I bolded:
"but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round."
I don't get how you two can go around dismissing it.
You misinterpreting that quote.
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions,This is not referring to starting a full-round action as a standard action, but taking a full-round action as a standard action, as can be done with the Charge action.
Hmm, that is a valid argument.
And that just broke spell combat ....
Read the part I bolded:
"but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round."
I don't get how you two can go around dismissing it.
Read the part I bolded:
"The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option."
I don't get how you think it applies to all actions, when it states that the action itself will specifically call out if it can be used as a standard when restricted to standard. The only example I know of is Charge.
Or the part I bolded: the "Start a full-round action" action is a STANDARD action. Using this STANDARD action only requires you to have a standard action. Starting a full-round action is not a full-round action. Therefore, the rule Diego presented has NOTHING to do with starting a full-round action because that rule only applies to taking a full-round action.