Looking at Intellectual Ascetic, just wondering if we would be able to swap all those abilties for the paladin spell progression table, an illuminated spell book, and a reduced rate of gaining new spells. the latter meaning that he only gains 1 spell every level to add to spell book.
Thoughts? Throwing this up again in hopes of something from the crew. :D
If I have any other ideas for possible MCAs I'll be sure to give them a go at writing them up, unless someone has already had a similar idea and offer my advice on things, if you don't mind?
By all means offer any advice or critique on anything here on the thread or our wiki. And yes, if you have another idea for an MCA go ahead and post it! Here's our MCA Master List from the wiki so you can see what has been covered or is in development!
@I know I may just be the least qualified to comment on the Intellectual Ascetic, but I only have more questions rather than critique: what is this "illuminated spellbook"? (A flipbook for frustrated scolars? All that asceticism can leave one... unfulfilled. ;p) It definitely sounds interesting.
Actually, as an aside, I find "Intellectual Ascetic" a bit dry and completely unadventurous. How about Illuminate Ascetic or similar?
How about Insightful Mind?
I like Insightful Mind. I think that's better than Intellectual Ascetic.
@OSW: An Illuminated spellbook would be a spellbook with illuminated iconography or pictures instead of actual spells, designed along the lines of monastic illuminated manuscripts. Probably similar in effect to a Thief's Spellbook (Stealth Mage). He'd only gain two 1st level spells at 4th, then 1 additional spell every level thereafter, then use the paladin spell progression.
A spell book mechanic would be a nice method to increase versatility. Though if we keep the ki mechanic, i think their ki pool should increase to full level plus int.
If we go spellbook, I think we'd just forget the ki related spells and just go with normal casting, bt with a paladin spell progression and casting level.
If we go spellbook, I think we'd just forget the ki related spells and just go with normal casting, bt with a paladin spell progression and casting level.
would keeping the reduced spell level thing be unbalanced? It would mean they could still get a couple level 5 spells, but they would have to be from their favored school. Alternatively they would never be able to get higher than level 3 spells from their neglected school. I feel this gives choosing a school much more significance. Also should probably include the universal option.
Its so wierd that these are the exact kind of conversations I was hoping to have about my build...
Its so wierd that these are the exact kind of conversations I was hoping to have about my build...
Sometimes things sound/ read differently when you are not directly attached to one viewpoint. everyone here just wants to make sure that the final verson of each MCA is balanced and easily exploitable or just OP things are avoided.
Thats all I was askin for
@Vincent if you want to bring your concept back by all means do - I would however suggest a couple of protocols to keep in mind -
* if you absolutely have to cast wall of text spoiler it
* by all means disagree with anyone about anything, but don't get ad hominem about it
* if a bunch of seemingly irresolvable specific mechanical minutiae are bugging you, feel free to take it to a PM
* don't be afraid to say "let's wind this back" or "that's not what I'm after"
* emoticons are your friend, and help to ease and sometimes (but not always) clarify the tone of your intent
I must admit the latest version of your concept looks very similar to an MCA down to Primary/Secondary classes. I'm sure you could benefit from the interest and intellect arrayed and focused on this thread...
Vincent; to clarify, you wanted a 9th level caster with an eidolon correct? I actually had some thoughts on how to balance that due to a witch/summoner brainstorm i had recently.
Welcome DMCal! Glad you like our work. be sure to check out the rest at our wiki site listed at the start of this thread.
I have been. Oh, yes. I have been.
Alright... Here we go... The new, the revised... (closes his eyes...)
Svyazi Kolduna:
Original Concept by Vincent Takeda.
Alignment: Any non lawful, non evil
Primary Class: Sorcerer
Secondary Class: Summoner
Hit Dice: d6
Class Skills: Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Perform(Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival, Spellcraft (Int)
Bonus Skills and Ranks: 2+Int
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Club only. No armor. No shields. Incurs penalties for the use of armor during casting like other casters.
Spells: Gains spells per day per the column on the Svyazi Kolduna table. Spells per day can be modified by the Charisma attribute. They learn new spells at the rate of 4 per level. These spells are drawn from the Svyazi Kolduna's spell list. The attribute upon which their spells is based is charisma. Must have a charisma score equal to at least 10+the spell level and the DC for saves against those spells is 10+the spell level+the charisma modifier of the caster. The spells are not gained through study and the Svyazi Kolduna is not capable of adding spells to his list of spells known from spellbooks or scrolls. The spells are cast from the list of his currently known spells and are not memorized or prepared in advance. The Svyazi Kolduna may never learn from or cast from scrolls.
Cantrips: The Svyazi Kolduna gains cantrips in the same way he gains other spells, but can of course use them any number of times per day.
summoning circle Begins play with the ability to summon a First World Eidolon (Half BAB, d6 for hit points). The Svyazi Kolduna brings forth the eidolon in the same way that a summoner does, using a summoning circle that takes 1 minute to cast... They can do this a number of times per day equal to 3+their charisma modifier. They can instead use this summoning capability to bring forth the following creatures at the appropriate level. Unlike the eidolon, these can only remain out for 1 minute per level of the Svyazi Kolduna.
Level 7: Unicorn
Level 9: Pixie, satyr
Level 15: Nymph
Instead of outsider, the eidolon has the fey creature type and extraplanar subtype. It uses the same statistics as a First world eidolon (d6 for hit dice, BAB is half the eidolon's hit dice. Uses good Reflex and Will saves.) It's class skills are acrobatics, bluff, climb, craft, diplomacy, disguise, escape artist, fly, know geography, now nature, perception, perform, sense motive, sleight of hand, stealth, swim. It uses low light vision , though it can be granted darkvision with the use of an evolution point. When the eidolon is eligible for DR/alignment, they may choose DR/cold iron instead.
Must be a biped humanoid base form and is not eligible for bite, mount, pincers, pounce, sting, tail, tailslap, tentacle, constrict, extra limbs, rake, trample, swallow whole, hooves, or undead appearance evolutions either naturally or through evolution surge spells.
Transmogrify: At level 12 the Svyazi Kolduna may use transmogrify once per day as the spell without cost.
Dimensional step: The Svyazi Kolduna can teleport up to 30 feet per level per day as a standard action. It must be used in 5 foot increments and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. He can bring along others but expends the same travel distance for each additional willing creature against his daily total.
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1--------0------0------0------2 Cantrip, Eidolon, Life link, Dimension steps
2--------1------0------0------3 Bond senses
3--------1------1------1------3
4--------2------1------1------4
5--------2------1------1------4
6--------3------2------2------5
7--------3------2------2------5 Summoning circle:Unicorn
8--------4------2------2------6
9--------4------3------3------6 Summoning circle: Pixie/satyr
10------5------3------3------7
11------5------3------3------7
12------6------4------4------8
13------6------4------4------8 Summoning circle: Nymph
14------7------4------4------9 Life bond
15------7------5------5------9
16------8------5------5------10
17------8------5------5------10
18------9------6------6------11 Greater aspect
19------9------6------6------11
20------10----6------6------12
Spells per day table:
-----1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
1---1
2---2
3---2---1
4---2---2
5---2---2---1
6---2---2---2
7---2---2---2---1
8---2---2---2---2
9---2---2---2---2---1
10-2---2---2---2---2
11-2---2---2---2---2---1
12-2---2---2---2---2---2
13-2---2---2---2---2---2---1
14-2---2---2---2---2---2---2
15-2---2---2---2---2---2---2---1
16-2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2
17-2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2---1
18-2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2
19-2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2---2
First world eidolon: Uses the same advancement table as the normal eidolon except that first world eidolons use half bab (of the eidolons hit dice) use ref and will for the good saves, lowlight vision instead of darkvision (can be upgraded to darkvision using an evolution point) and in the Svyazi Kolduna's case, never get multiattack.
The Svyazi Kolduna chooses 4 spells at each new level from the appropriate levels in the following list:
0 Dancing lights, Detect magic, Detect poison, Mage hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation
1 Enlarge person, Crafters fortune, Vanish, Rejuvenate Eidolon Lesser, Unfetter, Liberating command
2 Haste, Locate object, Create treasure map, Summon Eidolon, Evolution surge lesser, Spontaneous immolation, Restore eidolon lesser, Enlarge person mass, Fly, Woodshape
3 Invisibility greater, lightning bolt, Tongues, Wall of fire, Evolution surge, Restore eidolon, Strongjaw
4 Remove curse, Secure shelter, Sending, Evolution surge greater, Purified calling, Transmogrify, Greater animal aspect, Atavism
5 Break enchantment, Dispel magic greater, Ethereal Jaunt, Fabricate, Invisibility Mass, Permanency, Plane shift, Repulsion, Simulacrum, Teleport greater, Life bubble, Rejuvenate Eidolon greater,
6 Beast shape IV, Discern location, Legend lore, Monstrous physique iv, Permanent image, Stone to flesh, Transformation, Battlemind link, Create demiplane, Ironwood
7 Control weather, Limited wish, Prismatic spray, Reverse gravity, Vision, Joyful rapture
8 Form of the Dragon III, Giant form II, Iron body, Polar ray, Prismatic wall, Telekinetic sphere, Stormbolts, Frightful aspect
9 Freedom, Mage's disjunction, Prismatic sphere, Shapechange, Time stop, Wish, Create demiplane greater.
Alignment non lawful because I have yet to find a lawful fey... Non evil honestly because (though there are evil fey) my gm doesnt like evil characters and most woodland spirits are mischevious at worst. Class skills are almost done. Perform is in there because nature loves art... Harmony and dance... Survival makes sense in there. KNowledge nature at the very least.
One big nerf is spells per day. from a sorcerers 54, a summoners 35, or a wizards 36, down to just 18. Good charisma will pick up th e slack there but the intent is its far less likely to have one of these guys being able to casually sling spells at whim. In a game of resource management like pathfinder, cut back on the resource... Where an optimized sad sorcerer could easily get up to a machine-gunning 70 spells per day, a wizard 51, a summoner 42... this class with similar stats is left with tops in the low 30s.
Transmogrify because what you make up for in ability to fill a field with beasties by gaining variety with the eidolon... Again with the theme... Less 'raw quantity', more 'variety'.... Dimensional step as sort of a quick and dirty tree-step to disorient your foes and stay out of harms way... Uses a nerfed version of the wizard spells per day table because 1)already very much not going the route of more spells per day ike a sorcerer does. and 2)prefer access to the higher level spells sooner.
I do apologize that i'm coming here not for the use of your thematic creative skills. I'm going for kind of a halfway point between radagast the brown sort of nearly druidic arcane guy minus the hordes of beasties and Kevin Flynn from TRON Legacy... A guy who is one with his environment and has a single companion from that environment to look after and who looks after him.
My only true intent is to get this build down to where people can rethink their policy on 'full caster with eidolon?!?! Of course its too powerful! Are you MAD?'... I'd like this class to 'feel like'what people might think of as a tier1 or tier2 even... So I'm lookng to see if there are any ways this build still strikes people as 'overpowered'. To me it 'feels' less powerful than a synthesist, master summoner, normal summoner, sorcerer, or wizard... and at least in combat even buffed I feel like she still can't hold a candle to a dedicated front line fighter... I want to see if that's just my own personal bias though or if I'm getting the job done, and if I'm not... What other 'cuts' feel essential. Are there exploits I haven't accounted for?
And I super tried to keep it short but it's seems once again to have gotten longer than i'd hoped. I'll shut up now. And thank you!
Its wierd that I only finally made the connection between what i'm going for and TRON this morning... Funny to think of Kevin Flynns 'little house in the mountains' as a secure shelter or demiplane... Kevin Flynn and Quorra are an awesome representation of the 'thematic dynamic' I want with the class. Aesthetically he's a caster... He's a harnessser of the power of the environment and she's a pure manifestation of the environment. She totally thinks he's awesome because he's the wise and caring creator who can harness the power of the environment. He totally thinks she's awesome because she's biodigital jazz, man. Just like chaotic fey.
I totally am confused by Summoning Circle. Can you clarify the ability. Is it summoning creatures or an eidolon? It mentions a unicorn, but then also a bipedal base form. What actually happens? For all the text it's still confusin for this old wolf. [Hmm- On rereading it seems there is a Summoning Circle that:
a: Summons the eidolon or
B: Summons a fey for a minute/level
Is there a time limit on the eidolon summoned through this circle, or is it as a Summoner's Eidolon? Out of interest why are these abilities (summon creatures/eidolon) mashed together? Because of the theme of the Summoning Circle? If so, fine (from me anyway) but the writing needs cleaning up.
[Just as an example of confusion in your writing fPor OSW:
"Also a lot of big cuts on the eidolons power. The class isnt designed to be a wrecking ball. She's a first worlder who, when...
See how the first sentence talks about the eidolon, but the second refers to the class, then the third switches back to the eidolon, but without clarification it took me a while to work out who was who. Granted, this is just your explanatory notes/justification text, but that actually makes it all the more frustrating as the explanatory notes are somehow more obfuscatory than the class writeup! :)
And as this is the MCA thread, are you wanting us to look at it as an MCA? If so then it will need swaps for things like Transmogrify.
I'm not sure you need to worry or sweat it so much Vincent - the tier stuff amd full caster with eidolon - regardless of previously expressed opinions (either on this thread or elsewhere on any board or at a table) we are here to see what the general consensus is on a particular array of powers, spells, abilities etc.
@OSW: An Illuminated spellbook would be a spellbook with illuminated iconography or pictures instead of actual spells, designed along the lines of monastic illuminated manuscripts. Probably similar in effect to a Thief's Spellbook (Stealth Mage). He'd only gain two 1st level spells at 4th, then 1 additional spell every level thereafter, then use the paladin spell progression.
Hmm. Iconic pictures and symbols huh? Ok, so could they be tattooed? (Ducks for cover). Wasn't meaning to mention any Runecarved-ink approach. It just occurred to me.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Alright... Here we go... The new, the revised... (closes his eyes...)
** spoiler omitted **...
Well you definitely took our advice, but now I worry that this is way too underpowered. 2 spells of each level per day is extremely low, and without the summon monster spell-like ability, I guess I'm wondering what this guy will do while his (relatively weak) eidolon is trying to beat up on the bad-guy. Rely on wands and scrolls, I suppose?
Also, if he's learning 4 spells per level, you'll need to have at least 8 (but probably more like 12) of each spell type on the spell list, otherwise you're essentially saying "here are the spells he knows, you get no choice." :)
Overall, I think this is much more workable than your previous attempt. Perhaps one way to give it a bit more "umph" without going back to overpowered would be to give the eidolon 3/4 BAB instead of half. It would also be cool if you wrote up a thematic Evolution or two that are only available to this special fey Eidolon.
Edit: Also, I hate the name. I have never heard of either of those words. :-P
Vincent: Three things:
*Keep spoilering - I just edited my response to save everyone else's brains and retinas.
*Stop editing your posts. It's way too hard to get a grip on.
*Focus on some other thread for a while. Even spoilered, your posts (and other's responses to them) take up a lot of available real estate and there are other people here too, remember.
Lastly, one more thing - can we refer to your class in English? As great as the theme fluff is, Russian is a mouthful...
It would also be cool if you wrote up a thematic Evolution or two that are only available to this special fey Eidolon.
+1 to this - a great idea - or available to anyone who takes a new "Fey Summons" feat - like Skeletal Summoner feat, but for fey obviously.
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Vincent: Three things:
*Keep spoilering - I just edited my response to save everyone else's brains and retinas.
*Stop editing your posts. It's way too hard to get a grip on.
*Focus on some other thread for a while. Even spoilered, your posts (and other's responses to them) take up a lot of available real estate and there are other people here too, remember.
Lastly, one more thing - can we refer to your class in English? As great as the theme fluff is, Russian is a mouthful...
@OSW: Don't tell him to go to another thread! His idea is in the spirit of the MCA, and it is, after all, the internet. We're not going to run out of space.
They're also kind of 'mashed together' in the summoner class. The summoner class lets you bring forth summon monster or summon nature's ally for a much shorter duration in place of your eidolon using the spell like ability, but it also separatly affords you the ability to take summon monster spells.
I'll admit that sentence jumps around a bit... I guess a better way to say it is
---Keeping the classs from being an overpowered wrecking ball 'requires' that the eidolon gets big nerfs...---
I'm more interested in the results of my attempt at creating a class thats not overpowered than I am in the 'specific accounting of' which ability was traded for which nerf. 'Are the results still too powerful or not' and 'how', with suggestions on ways to nerf the exploits or uses of the class that a gm might say 'you breakin my game, buddy!'
Will the end result be up to the standards of the MCA's you guys make? Definitely not. Do I think I can get answers to the question 'Is this too powerful' and 'what other cuts seem appropriate to get therer'? I sure hope so. Thank you cartmanbeck. I definitely held off on creating any new fey evolutions so far, because I need to get the power waaay down before I can reasonably hope to add more to it. I was interested in seeing if I could come up with interesting new fey evolutions.
And i'm happy with referring to it as the soulbound sorcerer here to keep it easy ^_^
Well you definitely took our advice, but now I worry that this is way too underpowered.
Yay! Progress!
I guess I'm wondering what this guy will do while his (relatively weak) eidolon is trying to beat up on the bad-guy. Rely on wands and scrolls, I suppose?
No scrolls for sure.. Maybe even no wands depending on how folks in this thread feel about it... His job will be to keep her significant and on the field, which after playing the gestalt version of this class, has proven to be a full time job. ^_^
Also, if he's learning 4 spells per level, you'll need to have at least 8 (but probably more like 12) of each spell type on the spell list, otherwise you're essentially saying "here are the spells he knows, you get no choice." :)
I like that you noticed this... and it's totally intentional. At the end of the day there is no choice... To me its sort of like 'since nature is giving you your spells, your spell list is kind of like a cleric. Here's what you get. No more, no less." ^_^
Controlling scrolls and wands is very much up to players and GMs to control. while you might not use them nothing stops another player from taking feats or buying them. Not that it will make the class broken especially with such s small list.
if you absolutely have to cast wall of text spoiler it
And now I want a class that can use Wall of Text as a spell or ability...
Ok, I am compelled to create the Occult Philologist (Wizard/Oracle) casting spells by means of automatic writing, and make Wall of Text as an arcane revelation... thanks OSW!@Elghinn
I'm going to re-read the Heretic Theologist... meanwhile, I noticed that the Coven Champion and Merciful Redeemer haven't been published yet. If you want to polish them, let me know...
Another idea I had is a Beggar Friar (Inquisitor/Monk) or Ascetic Chanter (Monk/Bard)... but it's only a seed, like others which didn't grow.
Bardess, I'd be half tempted to suggest if you're going to do that look at the 3.5 Truenamer for some inspiration for ability (though be warned the class is extremely low powered due to its "casting" mechanic.)
@OSW: Don't tell him to go to another thread! His idea is in the spirit of the MCA, and it is, after all, the internet. We're not going to run out of space.
I didn't mean to tell him to go away, and if you reread my post I'm just trying to intimate that he's wall of texting a lot to my mind. I just meant "go easy, take a break, and let people have a chance to reply/comment."
If I wanted him to leave the thread I wouldn't have:
A: invited him in the first place on his own thread;
B: tried to interest him in staying the first time when he wanted to leave;
C: re-invited him back, again - on his thread; OR
D: given him the benefit of my feedback. Again.
Sheesh. Give a dog a bone.
As for the "size of the internet", no we won't run out of room, but monumental posts and lack of spoilers f$&k with the thread's ease of use IMHO, and it isn't necessary or conducive to participants, old, new or prospective. That's what I'm getting at. Again, it's the internet, and you can ignore everything I say, and I won't ever know! :)
(Vincent, sorry to talk about you in the third person - just don't Brand me for it.)
@Bardess: I totally stole wall of text from people referring to Neil Spicer's amazing output and rate. Mike Welham/taig's profile page mentions it too.
Does anyone have anything else to add or want to change with the beast knight?
I don't know the Truenamer but I'll look at it. Thanks for your suggestion!
A tentative scratch could be this:
Occult Philologist
Primary Class: Wizard
Secondary Class: Oracle
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d6
Skills: As wizard + the mystery skills (if the mystery provides a skill that he already possesses, he may choose another)
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int
BAB: As wizard
ST: PPG
Weapons and Armor: Wizard weapons, light armor (subject to spell failure), no shields.
Spells: As wizard + mystery spells
Class Features:
1) Cursed bond, arcane mystery (he puts mystery spells in his bonus spell slot; still has to choose opposition schools, but maybe in a different sense), cantrips, Scribe Scroll (maybe spontaneous casting by writing/reading a text?)
5/10/15) Revelation
20) Final Revelation
Mysteries: Ancestor, Dark Tapestry, Heavens, Lore, Occult, Time
New Mysteries: Spirits, Words
Seems pretty simple... maybe too much^^
It appears that in my new writeup I missed a correction on which level the summoning circle can bring a nymph. The table is correct at 13... The Entry in the description for the summoning circle says 15, which is an error.
Vincent, i was thinking that you simply lose you're bloodline and have one less spell at each level ( your table should resemble a wizards), and that should balance out having a fey eidolon.
Yep. Thats the tricky part. I don't have much experience with playing sorcerers so i'm not sure how powerful bloodlines can end up. I axed them because i don't really like them thematically... I was originally gunning for the wizard table with all 4s instead of 3s... then I realized that with a build like this it would be expected to go SAD, and attribute bonuses actually do a pretty decent job of padding the spells per day. Felt pretty good bringing it down to 2 and not feeling like 'god, even I don't wanna play this anymore!'
I took a lot of the crunch away from the eidolon just by removing some of the worst offender class abilities of the summoner. And I cut those for the same reasons... I never really planned on 'merging with my eidolon' so poof. Out it goes.
I think thats what I learned from my first excursion here.... If you want to turn a gestalt into an mca, you should not be aiming for a class that feels 'as powerful as a regular class'... Start by making it feel 'weaker' than a regular class. Then if you need to add new imaginative stuff back in you have some room. The things I added back in were the dimension step and the transmogrify because I happen to like them and they both are a little thematic.
Bloodlines can be pretty useful, actually.
Toaster- Not even close to balanced, especially with the current write of the fey eidolon.
I don't think people are getting how powerful arcane ninth level spells -are-. Here's a reminder- The wizard has a d6 hit die, few special abilities, and a full spread of arcane casting.
They're arguably much the most powerful class in the game.
The sorcerer has a bloodline of nifty abilities that save him some spells per day, a full spread of spontaneous casting, and a small handful of bonus feats. It's not quite on the Wizard's level, but it's still a powerful beast.
With a ninth level spell, you can do just about anything. Make your own demiplane, Wish, Teleport across planets, etc. etc.
The easier way would be as shown to work on the Erudite bard- go for a hybrid caster spread and set it up so he can pick a very tiny handful of spells of higher levels. This means lower DC's, easier run on the spells known, and a lot less balancing issues re: 'what insane buffs can he chuck out'.
Bloodlines can be pretty useful, actually.
Toaster- Not even close to balanced, especially with the current write of the fey eidolon.
I don't think people are getting how powerful arcane ninth level spells -are-. Here's a reminder- The wizard has a d6 hit die, few special abilities, and a full spread of arcane casting.
They're arguably much the most powerful class in the game.
The sorcerer has a bloodline of nifty abilities that save him some spells per day, a full spread of spontaneous casting, and a small handful of bonus feats. It's not quite on the Wizard's level, but it's still a powerful beast.
With a ninth level spell, you can do just about anything. Make your own demiplane, Wish, Teleport across planets, etc. etc.
The easier way would be as shown to work on the Erudite bard- go for a hybrid caster spread and set it up so he can pick a very tiny handful of spells of higher levels. This means lower DC's, easier run on the spells known, and a lot less balancing issues re: 'what insane buffs can he chuck out'.
well they would lose 1 spell at every level (2 every time they would get their bonus spells), bonus feats, Arcana (which is the key feature for a lot of sorcerer builds), and powers. In exchange they get an eidolon with half BAB. Even with evolutions it's only going to be slightly better than a Rogue in combat (or a Bard if you are realllly combat focused), but would lose out on versatility. In fact the eidolon would work best as a secondary utility character. I am not sure that's more powerful than a straight sorcerer, especially since the eidolon has to be humanoid.
It can still tank/breathe and artillery/land a possible CON poison.
Dealing constant damage is only the most -common- use of an Eidolon. :P
It can still tank/breathe and artillery/land a possible CON poison.
15d6 hit die does not a good tank make, and it will take a full investment of resources to make it pull a Monk and be ignored. His less than half bab makes landing that poison a pain. he literally only gets one iterative attack and can't pick up more limbs in Takeda's description. Breath weapon may in fact be one of the few reliable methods of attack it even gets.
Dealing constant damage is only the most -common- use of an Eidolon. :P
Except when that eidolon has 7 BAB at level twenty and is restricted to one form and certain evolutions...Wow reading that back, it seemed snarky, just to be clear i just wanted to state the case for why I think the Eidolon is nerfed enough to make the exchange fair.
15d6+Fast Healing+Ability Increases to Con+Evolution Surges for appropriate Immunity as well as whatever you can toss on to raise that AC can, in fact, be rather tanky. >:D
And no need to apologize for any snark- discussions like this move the idea forward and make us think instead of just tossing stuff together and calling it 'balanced'.
Bear in mind I do sometimes play devil's advocate, arguing a possible side whether I believe it or not just to make us consider and develop further than we would if no one argued it.
Its true that the half 3/4 bab sounds pretty brutal. It is offset somewhat by the impressive strength bonuses an eidolon gets from leveling... 27 strength by level 20 so that BAB of 7 turns into a 14 with strength... If we get that belt we're looking at Strength of 33, Bab 17 at 20th level before spell buffs. Not sure how we feel about that...
Good call on con build though. Thats how she's being played at the moment... At 10th level she's up to a 19 con wit 70 hit points and a 22 armor class before gear.
15d6+Fast Healing+Ability Increases to Con+Evolution Surges for appropriate Immunity as well as whatever you can toss on to raise that AC can, in fact, be rather tanky. >:D
And no need to apologize for any snark- discussions like this move the idea forward and make us think instead of just tossing stuff together and calling it 'balanced'.
Bear in mind I do sometimes play devil's advocate, arguing a possible side whether I believe it or not just to make us consider and develop further than we would if no one argued it.
technically Sorcerers don't get evolution surge, so immunities are a full investment. Besides a tank that stands around not dying for 1 min a level, since Vincents changes limit the time an eidolons out, contributes about as much as a monk who invests mostly in dex and wis but doesn't take weapon finesse. And the monk has a better chance of hitting.
Toaster- Use Magic Device + Wand. Problem. Solved. :P Some Magic Fang, some Evolution Surge, etc- the Eidolon'll make one hit/round.
And if con focused, that DC can get rather high- let's just step back and look at the possible top out.
1-16 con damage if that poison strikes; that can mean between 0 and 160 HP, or just death, on a level 20 character.
Of course, we also have to remember that this is not sure-fire and an immunity exists, but hey, any Eidolon can do it.
The sum-up of what I'm trying to point out here is, if they WANT their Eidolon to be a power player (pun!), they WILL, half-BAB and limitations or not. This is true of anything, but Eidolons especially because they're so dang versatile.
A relatively good combination I've been looking forward to throwing next level was to use hasted, large evolution surge and tensers transformation on her (personal spell)... That puts her at claw claw claw rend for d6+12 for the claws and 2d6+18 for the rend for 71.5 average dps... Could toss on element damage and strongjaw for a damage array of 3d6+12 for the claws and 4d6+18 for the rend... average dps per round of 99.5, but thats after 5 rounds of cast buffing, eating up 5 of his current 16 spells per day at this level... Thats about as close to 'nova' usage of her as I can get so far. Havent had the cash to invest in the charisma headband yet. Thatd give me an extra 2 spells per day... And for Toaster the way its written presently the Eidolon doesnt have a limit for how long she can stay out. Just the other first world summons like unicorns have the time restriction at the moment... Also not too famiiar with what eidolon poison is capable of since our gm considers poison use to be evil... But yes I'm definitely interested in seeing what kind of trouble it can cause that is above and beyond the other single classes.
I mention this particular combo only because it happens to be an area where this combination stands out... Normally a summoner doesnt get transformation as a spell at all, and a wizard or sorcerer casting transformation is casting it on himself, a character that is normally not so hot at combat, and doing so removes his abilities to cast spells until the transformation is up. By casting it on an eidolon that is arguably already more potent in combat than a wizard, it brings her for a very short time into a pretty significant combat powerhouse,sadly even tossing haste and the enlarge evolution just barely brings her on par with fighters, though as you can see it wipes out over 30 percent of his spells per day to make it happen...
I don't want to shut the build down for things that any other character could do, but if there are things like this that are uniquely possible with the combination that would make it more dangerous or game breaking than a regular run of the mill fighter or wizard... Thats the stuff I need to find a way to stop ahead of time. I appreciate help ^_^