I think one of this issues with clerics is that in Pathfinder, the classes are defined by their class features, and that clerics have less. Oracles can be way more customizable because they get more class features and you can select the nature of more of the class features. Pathfinder did add more class features to the cleric with the second domain powers, but it still falls a little short.
Sorry, but no. You have the illusion of more choice. But little else.
You get to choose a path. You can pick up to 6 abilities from that path out of 9. All these abilities focus on a narrow theme associated with that path. You do not get these abilities to choose from all at level 1 (generally Life mystery being a good exception to the rule).
Clerics can get a couple of things from an absolutely MASSIVE pool.(seriously clerics take up the most space in the corebook)
Oracles can grab more things from a much much smaller pool.
The problem is that the oracle will suffer in the preventative department.
This is part of the reason why I wrote up the Dual-Cursed oracle version.
A cleric can pick a second domain that gives them a buff or debuff ability or use their level 0 spells, so that really isn't the issue. I am speaking more in terms of specialty niche spells like protection from evil, resist elements, endure elements, silence(if you know you are going up against casters), protection from elements, wind wall, invisibility purge, dimensional anchor, water breathing, etc. That is without going into the spells granted by domains. How much damage would a timely use of the travel domain teleport spell prevent?
The cleric/oracle spell list is full of spells that are amazing at preventing damage or nulifying an enemy advantage in certain niche situations. An oracle may have a few of these on their known spell list, but they will not have most of them. Many of them are just too situational for a spontaneous caster to take them, but if the cleric knows they are going into a situation where X spell might be useful, they can memorize it. If they were wrong, they can always convert it into a cure spell.
Sorc < wiz from experience, admittedly a strawman and not on topic but CUT AND DRY hands down wizard=#1 Pure power. Cleric/ oracle not so clear .
Personally I'm not overly fond of the question itself, but I think the implication is that a cleric will at least have the healing domain as one of his domains of choice.
A life oracle can do alright if you want to hurt things as well. I've actually just started a PFS oracle with the life mystery that will do this. 14 starting str, 17 starting cha. Primary weapon is longspear
Here is the planned progression:
Human
1) Toughness, Selective Channeling, Channel Energy
3) Power Attack, Life Link
5) Quicken Channel
7) Furious Focus, Energy Body
9) Extra Revelation (Combat Healer)
11) Quicken Spell, Lifesense
He's still only level 1 but so far he's doing well. As a human he will get a very decent spell selection. The Aasmair build posted above is pretty impressive as well.
See, I'm not disputing the effectiveness of oracle's but I AM disputing the supposed comparative ineffectiveness of cleric for the healer/condition remover/all-round full divine caster.
@ Hawktitan +1 to your opening sentence. in retrospect Smacks of matches gas and oxygen.
Hah.
A Cleric with the fire and death domains. Does it heal as well as a Life Oracle?
Can't let silly life oracles walk all over clerics without at least offering something. The idea that any full caster is completely outclassed by their opposite seems absurd. Do folks get away with claiming sorcerer as better hands down than wizard?
Read a bit more carefully. You are over generalizing back at us.
I have read back through the thread. I don't really see hardly anyone saying the oracles is better hands down than the cleric.
The OP asked a very specific question. "Who's the better healer, Cleric or Oracles of Life?" That is what we are answering.
He did not ask, 'Which is more powerful, versatile, fun, etc...?'
The oracle (like the sorcerer) is very good at specializing in a theme. If you want to be excellent at one thing, well then the class that specializes will probably do better at it than most others most of the time.
If you want to be good at several things or different things on different days, then cleric will probably work better. But that was not the advice that was requested.
Can't let silly life oracles walk all over clerics without at least offering something. The idea that any full caster is completely outclassed by their opposite seems absurd. Do folks get away with claiming sorcerer as better hands down than wizard?Read a bit more carefully. You are over generalizing back at us.
I have read back through the thread. I don't see anyone saying the oracles is better hands down than the cleric.
The OP asked a very specific question. "Who's the better healer, Cleric or Oracles of Life?" That is what we are answering.
He did not ask, 'Which is more powerful, versatile, fun, etc...?'The oracle (like the sorcerer) is very good at specializing in a theme. If you want to be excellent at one thing, well then the class that specializes will probably do better at it than most others most of the time.
If you want to be good at several things or different things on different days, then cleric will probably work better. But that was not the advice that was requested.
My thoughts exactly. Question: Who's the best healer? Answer: Oracle of Life.
Which is the better class overall? Hard to tell; your mileage may vary; and so on.
Much more plausible responses as we get deeper now in the thread. Good. At least now it doesn't seem like a bash clerics as outdated ooh look at the pretty oracles party.
Not too bad at all. I gotta stop being a noob and try that soon :)
Sorry to bloat the thread but is there a general rule of thumb for what slots to leave open i.e. what levels and how many of each given level?
As someone who plays World of Warcraft, one of the problems inherent in "running the numbers" when it comes to healing is that it doesn't always yield the most accurate of results, because it doesn't necessarily take into account damage mitigation.
That said, one could roll up a Cleric and a Life Oracle of the same level and figure up the maximum and the average they would heal by burning all of their healing capacity, and that would give some sort of information.
It's been quite a while since I figured it all up.
However, my 7th level life oracle could theoretically heal well over 1500 hitpoints a day.
But that would require someone in all of the burst radius of the channel and everyone taking enough damage to get full value of the healing.
Now that I think about it, that was probably when we were also interpreting energy body incorrectly since we thought it was each person that moved through your square not just 1 of them. So it might only be 1300 or so hit points.
Whatever, it was a pretty staggering total.
As I said before, I believe a cleric with the healing domain came out just a bit ahead on the hit point total.
But we ran some mock fights with both builds and in use the oracle came out ahead because of some of the revelations allowing you to do more in a round and not get hurt while doing it.
... is there a general rule of thumb for what slots to leave open i.e. what levels and how many of each given level?
I believe the most common is to just leave 1 or 2 open of each level.
But that can change if you have some idea of what you might be facing.
Sometimes some of the similar spells kinda bunch in levels so you might need more of them.
Leaving a bunch of 2nd levels open for lesser restoration when going against undead is common.
Remove blindness, deafness, curse, and disease are all 3rd level spells. So if you are going up against other clerics you might leave more of these open.
@Bigdaddyjug: The phylactery can be good if you're playing a cross-class Cleric, but you're right - the problem with getting the best effect out of it is to wait until your whole party is at half-health or below, and that's too risky in some (most) combats.
Better to have the extra channels from a higher CHA bonus, and if you need that huge burst of healing, you burn a couple of extra and double Channel (Quickened and standard).
It was a hard choice for me on which headband to take.
My channels are mostly for blasting undead (CC AP) and with our group there is usually only 1 guy very beat up. So I don't need the area heal very often.
I eventually decided on the cha one since it would increase the save DC as well as giving me more of them.
Oracle of Life.
They make the best heal bots, variety is for suckers :)
Acid, fire, anyone ^ ^ ;).
I think someone needs to run the numbers of how much each could possibly heal.
Some napkin math with a 20 point buy, no dump stats, assuming that AoE healing hits 3 targets who need healing.
Level 10 Oracle of Life10 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wisdom, 16 +2 racial +4 headband = 22 charisma
Revelations: Channel, Safe Curing, and (Energy Body OR Combat Healer)
Feats: Quick Channel, Quicken Spell, Selective Channel, Extra channel, Extra channel
Cure Spells per Day 8/8/7/4/4 with Channel of 5d6 11/day and 10 rounds of Energy Body
Total Healing payload per day: 678 from cures + 577.5 from channel + 135 from energy body = 1391 hp
1 per day: Mass Cure Light + Quickened Mass Cure Light(via Combat healer) + Quick Channel = 126 healing
4 per day: Cure Critical Wounds + Quickened Cure Light wounds + Quick channel = 90 healing
Level 10 Healing Cleric
10 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 16 +2 racial +3 headband = 22 wisdom, 10 charisma
Domains: Healing, Liberation
Feats: Quick Channel, Quicken Spell, Extra Channel, Extra Channel, Extra channel
Cure Spell per Day 6/6/4/4/3 with Channel of 5d6 9/day and 9 uss of rebuke death
Total Healing Payload per day: 761.25 from cures + 472.5 from channel + 67.5 from Rebuke Death = 1301.25 hp
1 per day: Mass Empowered Cure Light Wounds + Quickened Empowered Cure Light Wounds + Quick Channel = 132 healing
3 per day: Cure Critical Wounds + Quickened Cure Light Wounds + Quick Channel = 108.75 healing
Oracle Pros
- More total healing per day
- Better AoE healing(Mass CL + quickened mass CL + quick channel is a lot of AoE healing in one round)
- Has Selective Channel
- No concentration checks when casting heal spells
- Good options for social skills
Cleric Pros
- Better Single Target healing(The oracle can't beat the Empowered quickened CL + Empowered Cure Critical)
- Liberation Domain(Freedom of Movement when you need it + make allies immune to confused, grappled, frightened, panicked, paralyzed, pinned, or shaken)
- More spell flexibility(can choose different spells each day and leave slots open)
- Better Will save, Perception, and Sense Motive
Mercyful Healer Cleric - Drop second domain for the ability to not have to make concentration checks, channel removes conditions like paladin's lay on hands, and reroll 1s on channel.
Personal comments: A level 10 fighter has around 80 hp, so if your party is taking 1000+ damage per day, then they are getting hit enough to kill the party front liner 12 times over. Both classes have enough healing to take the entire party from near death to full health 4 times per day. I don't think that an extra 100 hp healed per day is worth the loss in versatility.
Good solid breakdown, thanks!
So, it's mostly a matter of flavor- OP- do you prefer Prepared or Spontaneous?
Both are tops at healing. Both would be a solid AND welcome addition to any party.
As was mentions- The Hospitaler Paladin is third. But he is by far the better tank.
As you have that, a couple of comments:
1) If the Oracle is 10th level, he should only have three Revelations until 11th level. I also think you probably meant to have Enhanced cures as a revelation.
2) The Oracle with two Extra Channel feats should have 11 channels a day, not 13.
Can you take Extra Channeling more than once? I use the d20pfsrd and it doesn't say you can take it more than once.
1a. Yeah, for some reason I was thinking that Oracles get revelations as often as alchemists get discoveries.
1b. Basically, you would have to choose between energy body(more healing per day), enhanced cures, and Combat Healer(better burst healing) at level 10. Enhanced cures is kinda a middle option as it improved burst healing slightly(by improving quickened cure lights by +5), and it improves total healing slightly(by about +40 total vs +135 from energy body).2. Oops, I though it was identical to the cleric, but it is only 1 + charisma.
So, in all, that costs the oracle about 105 healing per day.
As for the extra channel, I was just trying to max out the total healing available. For an actual character, I don't think I would pick it for the oracle, and I doubt I would take it more than once for the cleric. Both are so far past what a normal group should need for healing that there are better places to spend your feats.
I'm 95% sure you can not take extra channel more than once. But I probably wouldn't do that anyway.
However, the oracle can take the extra revelation feat.
I totally forgot about the merciful healer archtype. Thanks for the reminder.
I'm 95% sure you can not take extra channel more than once. But I probably wouldn't do that anyway.
However, the oracle can take the extra revelation feat.
I totally forgot about the merciful healer archtype. Thanks for the reminder.
Yeah, the cleric would be much better off taking Combat Casting, Extra channel with one feat free for whatever.
The Oracle would probably take extra relevation twice(combat healer and life link).
Level 10 Oracle of Life
Total Healing payload per day: 678 from cures + 682.5 from channel + 135 from energy body = 1496 hpLevel 10 Healing Cleric
Total Healing Payload per day: 761.25 from cures + 472.5 from channel + 67.5 from Rebuke Death = 1301.25 hp
.
The oracle is getting ~800 healing prior to spells. The oracle is getting ~360 single target healing prior to spells (the Life Link revelation increases this to ~590).The cleric is getting ~500 healing prior to spells. The cleric is getting ~200 single target healing prior to spells (Rebuke Death 9 times on the same person in a day is improbable).
The cleric can do something similar to life link with shield other. Yes, it requires a spell, but it transfers more damage, and it grants a +1 to AC.
Life link requires the oracles to use a revelation, they only have 3 at level 10 with 2 feats free. Taking 5 revelations(Channel, Safe Curing, life link, Energy Body, and Combat Healer) would mean they are not taking extra channel twice, which reduces their healing before spells by 210.
That puts the oracle at ~600 healing prior to spells, with ~260 single target healing prior to spells(life link only increases that to ~380)
The Cleric also has 5 domain spells that cannot be converted into heals. Those are left out of the calculations.
1. Why no dump stats? An oracle or cleric focused on healing will have very little need for Str. and you're gimping the character by not letting them dump it. One of the advantages an oracle has is that they are not nearly as MAD a class as the cleric. Don't deny them that to try and level the playing field.
Anything a cleric can dump, so can the oracle, in the end, it is most likely a wash in any comparison between the 2 classes.
2. A quickened enhanced CLW is at least as powerful as an empowered quickened CLW, and it fits in a lower level spell slot. I'd say that makes it blow the empowered quickened CLW out of the water.
Yes, enhanced cures is about equal to empowered cures for a Cure Light Wounds. The difference is the cleric benefits from empower on all cure spells. The oracle only gets the benefit of enhanced cures on spells that are level capped. At level 10, the only spell that is level capped is cure light. Thus, enhanced cures is not really a good choice for a level 10 oracle. At level 15-20 it might be worth taking, but before level 10, it is a pretty meh ability.
3. You can't take Extra Channel more than once, however you could take Extra Channel and Abundant Revelation as an oracle. Abundant Revelation only gives you one extra channel, though, so it's probably not worth taking.
I was just using extra channel feats to max out healing. As I said before, the cleric would probably take extra channel, combat casting, and have a feat free. The Oracle pretty much needs to take extra relevation twice if you want all of the key healing abilities at leve 10.
4. For a pure oracle, you can go dual-cursed (wolf-scarred and deaf is an amazing combination) and get a LOT of extra utility that the cleric can only drool over. You do lose early access to a couple of very worthwhile spells, though.
Liberation domain. The cleric cannot be paralyzed, grappled, or otherwise restricted in their movement for 10 rounds/day as per Freedom of movements, and they can activate this and deactivate this as a free action. Further, for 10 rounds per day, they can give a limited version of this ability to every ally within 30 feet. THAT is utility that the oracle can only drool over, and the cleric doesn't have to give anything up to get it. There are some other nice second domain choices, but liberation is probably the most stupidly OP one.
5. Race choices for an oracle can really have a huge effect. Aasimar and the alternate favored class bonus can make your energy channel ridiculously powerful. As a human, you can add a bunch of extra spells known to your list, thereby increasing your spellcasting flexibility. Let's be honest, you're going to cast the biggest variety of 1st-level spells, and how many different 1st-level spells are you really going to cast in your career? A human oracle can have eight 1st level spells on their list at level 10. I would say that's more than enough.
Like dump stats, I am working on the assumption that racial choices will help both the oracle and cleric equally. Assuming you are human and take the HP favored class bonus every level, switching to Aasimar gives you 3d6 more healing on your 7 channels for a total of 73.5 more total healing per day at the cost of 1 feat and 10 HP.
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Lots of good advice here.
My human dual-cursed life oracle is L13. I went with a damage sponge/buffer/debuffer. Just some random thoughts on my build:
Pumped CHA and CON. CON especially because I eat the party's damage with Life Link and Shield Other. At L13 I have a 22 CON and 164 HP.
Channeling: Extra Channel, Quick Channel, Selective Channeling & Alignment Channel:Evil (because it's PFS and outsiders crop up enough to warrant it). Went with the Phylactery instead of the CHA headband because if a foe beat a spell DC or I failed a CHA check I had rerolls at the ready.
Prevention: Fortune & Misfortune revelations, Ill Omen spell, Divine Interference feat. Better than soaking damage, I could flat out prevent it.
Salute My Flag: With the Flagbearer feat and wielding a Banner of Ancient Kings means a +2 Hit/Dam within 30' buff that's always up.
Between on-the-fly buffing, debuffing, positioning my flag for the biggest gain and ZOMGhealzPLZ I've never just sat back and been a healbot.
If I went back and did it again, I would take Fey Foundling at L1 for self-throughput on the heals.
Life Link does not heal, it moves damage around. the cleric can do something similar with shield other(with a +1 to the targets AC). Also, life link requires the oracles to use a revelation, they only have 3 at level 10 with 2 feats free. Taking 5 revelations(Channel, Safe Curing, life link, Energy Body, and Combat Healer) would mean they are not taking extra channel twice, which reduces their healing before spells by 210.
The Cleric also has 5 domain spells that cannot be converted into heals. Those are left out of the calculations.
.
Life Link retroactively doubles the single target healing value of Channel (Shield Other only proactively doubles it). Taking the feat Fey Foundling makes this crazy efficient.
Life link allows you to transfer 5 damage per round from the target to the oracle. If your party tank is getting pounded by a hill giant, 5 damage round is less than 10% of the damage he is taking, which means it is only increasing your single target healing effectiveness by less than 20%. Shield other transfers half the damage taken, which results in doubling your single target healing effectiveness. Life link does have an advantage in that you can drop the link as an immediate action(shield other requires a free action, which means you have to wait until your turn).
Life Link is one of the better revelations for the Life Oracle and should be recommended in any healer build (in my opinion). It gives at range auto healing and stabilization to the party.
I agree that the oracle should take it, but it is not as good as shield other(half damage, +1 AC, +1 reflex save). A healing oracle should seriously consider having both. Shield other for the party tank, and life link for the other party members.
A Dual Cursed Oracle gets 5 revelations by level 10 (although 1 of those is almost mandatory to be Misfortune because it is that good).
"A dual-cursed oracle gains a new revelation at 5th level and 13th level."
That is only 1 extra relevation at level 10, and if you take Misfortune, the net gain to your healing ability is zero.The cleric with the healing domain can fill the domain slots with cure spells. They should be added to the cleric's column.
Memorizing cure spells in your domain slots would add another 120 to the clerics healing abilities with spells, plus gives you breath of life.
5. Race choices for an oracle can really have a huge effect. Aasimar and the alternate favored class bonus can make your energy channel ridiculously powerful. As a human, you can add a bunch of extra spells known to your list, thereby increasing your spellcasting flexibility. Let's be honest, you're going to cast the biggest variety of 1st-level spells, and how many different 1st-level spells are you really going to cast in your career? A human oracle can have eight 1st level spells on their list at level 10. I would say that's more than enough.I keep seeing this Aasimar racial bonus stuff with Oracles, and maybe there is something to it.
It lets you add half your level to the bonus from one relevation. For a healing oracle your channel ability is a relevation, so a level 10 Aasimar Oracle would be able to channel as a level 15 cleric 1+charisma times per day. So in my above comparison, the Aasimar's ability adds 115.5 healing per day.
The cost if that if you were human, you would have 10 more hit points to soak damage, and an extra feat. What can you do with a single feat?
Toppling Spiritual Weapon(damage + trip attempts for 1 round/level)
Concussive Sound Burst(1d8 damage, -2 to all rolls + possible stun)
That reminds me.... Another point against the Oracle is metamagic usage. If you want to use metamagic as an oracle, this bumps your cast time to a full round action(except for quicken spell). The Cleric will take the same hit if they are spontaneously converting spells into cures, but the cleric has to option to memorize a spell with metamagic applied to avoid the time increase.
Yeah, but most of these builds seem to progress the same feature, even past level 10.
Take the example I gave of the animal companion. Can you go past level 20 with that to have an Animal Companion that a druid level 30 could have? With any of the revelations?
Could your Aasimar Oracle channel like a level 30 Cleric?
Really up to your DM, but the difference between a level 20 and a level 30 channel would be 5d6, that is a difference of 17.5. A level 20 fighter probably has around 170 HP. At level 20, the healing game is less about HP damage and more about condition removal anyways.
I've always assumed that Extra Channel could be taken multiple times - but now that I read it again, unlike the other "Extra" feats (Extra Hex, Extra Arcana, etc.), it doesn't include the clarification that it allows you to take it more than once.
Not sure if that's overlooked or intended.