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When i GM, i usually describe everything in graphic detail. And i don't shy away from having children die to make an impact. As for body horror, i use it if it serves a purpose, and then i use it GOOD. As for horror moments, i prefer suspense horror then scary stuff that jumps out. Easier to do, a hundred times more scary.
My villains are truly awful people (unless i need them to be a little sympathetic), evil means EVIL with blood of innocents dripping off the letters.
If disasters happen, they have repercussions. People die, homes are destroyed. I play for keeps with PCs loved ones, families pets.
Of course, i tell all this beforehand to new players, so that they know what to expect.
And i don't do it all at once, after all, the purpose is to have fun.
How about you?
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How about you?
When I and/or my player stop having fun...that is when it is too much.
How about you?
As far as graphic detail and squick levels? The sky's the limit. My regular group tends to dip into villainy on a frequent basis and refuses to let me fade-to-black anything that might relate to the story. Some of them have issues I know to avoid, but everything's discussed beforehand and no one's allowed to bully another into going along with material they hate. That said, the evil behavior the players engage in is usually over-the-top and played for laughs (black-hearted laughs, but laughs all the same). Example: one of the players built, or rather animated, a set of armor composed of undead infant parts.
Luckily, I've never had to draw any lines as the group pretty much knows what to expect from each other.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I used to use a lot "horrible and terrible stuff", especially going into more graphic detail than I do now. Not because I've grown increasingly squeamish about it, but because I found that too much blood and gore doesn't shock or contribute to any particular mood, but usually pushes my players into full on "splatter movie humor". If it goes over the top, they laugh about it. Sometimes that's ok, but it tends to infect more serious stories, so I don't use it as much anymore.
Additional, I come to dial back the "everyday horrors". If every relationship ends on some sacrificial altar, its hard to maintain any investment in your "loved ones". If your little sister needs rescuing every other day, and usually still returns "damaged", why bother? So, rather than mandating the PCs to have at least three pieces of kidnap-bait, adding a healthy amount of competent allies, relatively un-involved family and mundane evils makes the real horror stories stand out all the more.
Or, to put it another way: If there is a rapist and a demon-worshipper in every other house, these orcs don't seem so bad anymore...
I used to use a lot "horrible and terrible stuff", especially going into more graphic detail than I do now. Not because I've grown increasingly squeamish about it, but because I found that too much blood and gore doesn't shock or contribute to any particular mood, but usually pushes my players into full on "splatter movie humor". If it goes over the top, they laugh about it. Sometimes that's ok, but it tends to infect more serious stories, so I don't use it as much anymore.
I agree here. If the GM uses too much it becomes a bore and no longer gives the shock that is sometimes needed to give the encounter the weight it should have. Like any good spice, gore and horror are best when used with a light hand. :-)
Use it to good effect, use it a lot, but don't use it all the time, or the power of it is lost.
I avoid graphic descriptions of horrible stuff. I think it pollutes the mind and isn't fun for a group of friends who get together once a week for a role playing session. If a character is captured and tortured I draw a veil over the details and just give them the numbers (6 pts con damage, 2 pts wis and cha damage, 4 pts dex damage). Similarly I'll refer to a body as "obviously has been tortured before death". If it comes to say a village attacked and destroyed by orcs I'll be very descriptive about sounds, smells but use the best tradition of 'dodgy special effect horror' for sights (i.e. don't show it in the clear, but leave it to the imagination to fill in the blanks - you get a much scarier monster that way). The world is full enough of monstrosity already.
I've played in games (mostly by email) where violence (including sexual violence) has been described in detail. It does make an impact, but my refs have always checked out with me before hand that they're not crossing the line.
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"pollutes the mind" ...
...
I also hear violent video games make people into monstrous killers. Still waiting for my levels in assassin though.
My players love graphic descriptions of violence, especially when they are the ones doing it.
As for worse things, you can use it emphasise the importance of getting in there, less someone be totally done and dusted. You can speak of the horrors of war, you can allude to something, or you can describe the taste, the touch, feelings that flash along with it. Dead roasted children impaled on the walls, they remind you simultaneously of paper kites and roasted lizards. Your character will never forget these terrible deeds. It is time to hunt some *insert monster here*, then insert something into the monsters, later.
Then there are the players, one I know always had his ninja shove that falchion right up the kachooka of his enemies. Those poor poor foes.
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When i GM, i usually describe everything in graphic detail. And i don't shy away from having children die to make an impact. As for body horror, i use it if it serves a purpose, and then i use it GOOD. As for horror moments, i prefer suspense horror then scary stuff that jumps out. Easier to do, a hundred times more scary.
My villains are truly awful people (unless i need them to be a little sympathetic), evil means EVIL with blood of innocents dripping off the letters.
If disasters happen, they have repercussions. People die, homes are destroyed. I play for keeps with PCs loved ones, families pets.Of course, i tell all this beforehand to new players, so that they know what to expect.
And i don't do it all at once, after all, the purpose is to have fun.How about you?
I by and far, agree with much of what you posted...
But...
With game context as extreme as you're describing, I think you are doing well to warn players ahead of time, but I feel like you're forgetting a crucial element of delivering good horror(and general storytelling/atmosphere):
"Know your audience."
This is one of those areas where the DM has a good bit of extra homework to do; it's not enough to just play up these extreme scenes and gory detail, you need to know what makes your players tick. Do they have any phobias? Are some topics off-limits or taboo?
I too, ran some pretty extreme horror campaigns, but on a few occasions, I stumbled and crossed some lines. Scene detailed in the spoiler below, for example:
The party was traveling by carriage through lycanthrope-infested woods on their way to another town. They wanted to travel straight through the night, not stopping to camp.
Along the way, they came across another carriage, which had been crashed, several bodies lay mauled on the ground. The party stops their carriage to investigate, and search for survivors. They found none at the site itself, but heard a woman scream just a short distance from them.
The party rush into the woods, and in a short time, track down the woman screaming, and find that she is being dragged away by an upright man-beast; a werewolf in mostly human form. The woman has obvious lacerations and multiple large wounds, but the party is unsure whether these occurred from the wreck, or from the werewolf directly.
The party attempts to rescue her, and attack the beast. The creature lunges for one party member(who happens to be the only one who didn't want to stop in the first place), lands a crit, and delivers it's infectious lycanthrope. The rest of the group slay the monster, and try to comfort the injured young woman... Who is obviously with child, very long into her term.
The infected party member demands that the other members slay the woman, as she is likely infected as well. The party refuses to attack an innocent woman, and want to try to get her to the next town and hope to cure her lycanthrope(if she is even infected). The fact that she is with child, and appears to be very close to a delivery date makes them even more vigilant for her. The infect party member says nothing else, and while the party continues to comfort the woman, he heads back to the carriage...
...And drives off with it, without the party.
The party is forced to walk on foot, with the injured woman, through haunted, werewolf infested woods, for at least 2 days of a hike.
During the second night of walking, the woman cries out in pain. Unable to console her, the party begins to panic as they think she is going into labor. However, these are not labor pains... The cries come from her body convulsing, contorting, and changing into it's new, feral, form. She is still in the throes of her change, when the party start arguing over what to do about her. Just before she reaches full wolf-form, one member puts a silver-tipped crossbow bolt through her head.
This scene basically involved killing an innocent, pregnant woman. The players can justify themselves easily, as she had contracted lycanthrope, which in Ravenloft is NOT easily curable(permanent on a failed attempt). They did not have means to subdue her, and did not want to risk putting themselves in danger of being either killed or infected as well.
However, what happened, happened. And for two of the female players in my group, this did not sit well with them at all. Both of them had suffered miscarriages in real life, and one of them was especially sensitive to anything that involves harm coming to children.
I was not aware of these things, and wound up with a very awkward and somber toned game. We ended the session quietly, and everyone just sort of left.
Long story short, I dropped the party into a situation with no easy way out. They were forced to react to a situation where simply "kill the BBEG" was not the answer, and I wound up pushing some boundaries a little too hard.
By all means, get crazy creative and "go for the throat," but don't forget, that at the end of the day this is a game people play for fun. Horror gaming is a tough genre to be successful at; you have some pretty sensitive areas to consider, and it's terribly easy to go too far.
Don't just warn your players that your game is going to be nasty, sit down and hash out some boundaries. Find that point that keeps the game fun, and doesn't wind up hurting players or ruining atmosphere.
I have found that the best sessions came from full interaction; the players getting involved with the story and adding their own input through character actions, not just me sitting behind the DM screen describing gory stuff. It doesn't matter how extreme you can get, if the players just don't get involved.
I used to use a lot "horrible and terrible stuff", especially going into more graphic detail than I do now. Not because I've grown increasingly squeamish about it, but because I found that too much blood and gore doesn't shock or contribute to any particular mood, but usually pushes my players into full on "splatter movie humor". If it goes over the top, they laugh about it. Sometimes that's ok, but it tends to infect more serious stories, so I don't use it as much anymore.
Additional, I come to dial back the "everyday horrors". If every relationship ends on some sacrificial altar, its hard to maintain any investment in your "loved ones". If your little sister needs rescuing every other day, and usually still returns "damaged", why bother? So, rather than mandating the PCs to have at least three pieces of kidnap-bait, adding a healthy amount of competent allies, relatively un-involved family and mundane evils makes the real horror stories stand out all the more.
Or, to put it another way: If there is a rapist and a demon-worshipper in every other house, these orcs don't seem so bad anymore...
I agree with this a lot. You have to be careful not to overdo things and burn the players out, or it makes things seem trivial. I'll still do non-horror, broad daylight encounters such as goblins, thugs, non-paranormal/horror stuff, but save the intense stuff for less frequent occasions.
Sort of reminds me of this one passage in the Ravenloft Core Rulebook(can't remember the page) that describes the realms as not being wholly evil and horrible; that the land has great beauty, that there are truly good people who inhabit it, that the land is worth saving, and worth fighting for.
If everything was horrid and dark all the time, there'd be nothing worth saving.
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Great story Josh, bravo.
When the party got left behind by the infected party member, wow, he would not live with many parties I've played with. He would be hunted down, killed, his body pissed on, and then they would divide up his loot, with some smashing it then and there just to insult his spirit.
Yep, got to be worth saving.
One thing I emphasise now, is that if a party has been active in a region for a long time, the monsters are no longer close, the land safe, the people protected. Simply, you did your jobs heroes, this land is not in peril.
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My players love graphic descriptions of violence, especially when they are the ones doing it.
The prosecution rests, m'lud.
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Depends on the situation. Too much of it and you end up numbing your players and lose the intended effect. Sometimes it works better if you provide just enough detail and then do a "fade to black" and let your players fill in the blanks with their imagination. Chances are they'll hit on things that stimulate fear and loathing you couldn't even think of.
Evil doesn't have to be graphic, just effective. There are dozens of horror movies out there that deliver better scares than things like "Saw" or "Hostel." Bad stuff in movies often comes from the implied rather than the explicit.
Think about Darth Vader in the torture scene with Leia in Star Wars. He delivers his threat, the camera focuses on the torture bot with that big hypodermic needle arm, and then the door shuts. 'Nuff said.
As for body horror, i use it if it serves a purpose, and then i use it GOOD.
Well. You use it well.
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Sorry. I was sleepy, and groggy. No excuse though.
I might have overlooked it, but you put it in all caps and yelled it at me.
I know, I know I shouldn't bite but...
I think...violence etc, it isn't fun etc.
The op asked for opinion, I presented my opinion. It is my opinion (as is the normal understanding of any sentence that begins "I think") that it isn't fun for a group of friends to sit around and describe acts of violence to each other in graphic details.
While the phrase "Dungeon Mommy" seems pejorative I do try to keep a leash on the morals of my players because I want to enjoy the game I run and I won't enjoy it if they're child crucifying serial rapists. However, it is a non sequitur to go from my being a Dungeon Mommy to saying that I think violence is going to pollute the mind. I think graphic descriptions of violence pollute the mind (which I will accept is an unnecessarily pejorative way of putting this, but I wanted to present a strongly worded counter-statement to the OPs position).
Since I don't want to expand on a flippant comment by me on Loyalist's comment when he seems to have taken it in good part himself, I won't. But I've had to break my soap box up into firewood to stop myself climbing onto it.
;-)
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I like that concept. "Pollution of the mind". Nice.
It's a game where I suspect most of us play heroes and don't necessarily need every graphic detail outlined in perfect clarity. But if your group's into that and everyone knows/is forewarned, then yeah, it's not too much.
I'm a big fan of letting my mind run wild with a few bland descriptions of the end result of the BBEG's lurid acts. I can come up with far worse mental images than most can, but you know, I live also in here. Heh. (Better not to do too much polluting of the mind due to that.)
I know, I know I shouldn't bite but...
I think...violence etc, it isn't fun etc.The op asked for opinion, I presented my opinion. It is my opinion (as is the normal understanding of any sentence that begins "I think") that it isn't fun for a group of friends to sit around and describe acts of violence to each other in graphic details.
While the phrase "Dungeon Mommy" seems pejorative I do try to keep a leash on the morals of my players because I want to enjoy the game I run and I won't enjoy it if they're child crucifying serial rapists. However, it is a non sequitur to go from my being a Dungeon Mommy to saying that I think violence is going to pollute the mind. I think graphic descriptions of violence pollute the mind (which I will accept is an unnecessarily pejorative way of putting this, but I wanted to present a strongly worded counter-statement to the OPs position).
Since I don't want to expand on a flippant comment by me on Loyalist's comment when he seems to have taken it in good part himself, I won't. But I've had to break my soap box up into firewood to stop myself climbing onto it.
;-)
I am curious about the following, pollute the mind in what way? The description of violence, gore, battle, war in a game is polluting? The participation of players in roleplaying inflicting wounds, killing and worse, is polluting? How? Sell it to me please, because it seems total b~!+@$#s.
I've heard this before, through statements like "don't go to that site or you will be scarred for life". Still waiting for these magical mind scars.
I like that concept. "Pollution of the mind". Nice.
It's a game where I suspect most of us play heroes and don't necessarily need every graphic detail outlined in perfect clarity. But if your group's into that and everyone knows/is forewarned, then yeah, it's not too much.
I'm a big fan of letting my mind run wild with a few bland descriptions of the end result of the BBEG's lurid acts. I can come up with far worse mental images than most can, but you know, I live also in here. Heh. (Better not to do too much polluting of the mind due to that.)
My father was a butcher, so meat, blood, gore and those bits of fat that get stuck in the soles of your boots are to me reality, not pollution.
If you cut a man, do they not bleed? If your barbarian hits someone with a tetsubo on the charge, while raging, and crits, parts of them explode and rupture, and down comes a ragged mess. Barbarian 1, dog meat 0.
In the interests of clarification I will expand on my turn of phrase. It means what it says on the box. Pollution is defined as "The presence in or introduction into the environment of a substance or thing that has harmful or poisonous effects." The level of harm is dependent on many things and I will cheerfully concede that most role players are well adjusted and are not going to be seriously harmed by even the most lurid of descriptions, and if they were if it wasn't role playing it would be religion or politics or heavy metal or knitting. However, for example, I went to see "Devils Rejects" many years ago without having researched the kind of film that Rob Zombie makes. I wish I'd left because there are ideas and images from that film that I would rather not have. My mind is polluted by these. There are many such things in everyone's life and we get over them, forget them, avoid them in the future because we're smart and resilient. I don't think that that makes them entirely harmless. I do have opinions about the horrification of culture and media but these aren't really relevent.
I'll turn it around. Are there any things at all that you would not wish to describe in your gaming group? If there are (any at all) then you are agreeing that there are limits. These are individual, as they should be (opinion, not fact, but what you do in your own group at your own table is, in my arrogant opinion, entirely yours to decide whatever I think of it), but I would be greatly surprised if there weren't things that would squick you. It may not be extremes of violence, I know someone who can't bear saliva and a description of a drooling monster has her leaving the room.
Somewhat off the subject, but relevent, is that what's ok for three quarters of a group may not be ok for the other quarter and in most cases I think it's better to err on the side of caution. A friend was playing in an sf game, the GM had set up a 'dilemma' situation with the hostages strapped to a big bomb. Perfectly reasonable situation to present a playig group with (IMAO). One of the players just shot all the hostages on the grounds they were probably tainted by chaos anyway. As a GM, I really wouldn't like that solution, but it does work. However, one of the players couldn't deal with this and it led to a tense argument with the one feeling that the characters were supposed to be the good guys and the others feeling that this was Saturday night and a chance to let their hair down and not care about consequences. The campaign came to an abrupt end and I'm not sure they've met for role playing again (although I don't think their friendship has been permanently damaged).
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In the interests of clarification I will expand on my turn of phrase. It means what it says on the box. Pollution is defined as "The presence in or introduction into the environment of a substance or thing that has harmful or poisonous effects." The level of harm is dependent on many things and I will cheerfully concede that most role players are well adjusted and are not going to be seriously harmed by even the most lurid of descriptions, and if they were if it wasn't role playing it would be religion or politics or heavy metal or knitting. However, for example, I went to see "Devils Rejects" many years ago without having researched the kind of film that Rob Zombie makes. I wish I'd left because there are ideas and images from that film that I would rather not have. My mind is polluted by these. There are many such things in everyone's life and we get over them, forget them, avoid them in the future because we're smart and resilient. I don't think that that makes them entirely harmless. I do have opinions about the horrification of culture and media but these aren't really relevant.
I think that they are. Do you often think about those ideas or images, or can you just remember them sometimes and say "Ah, yeah, i'm not gonna go to another Rob Zombie film". Because life is construed of experiences. Good and bad. Shielding people from bad experiences hampers their learning and progress. See, you went to see a horrible movie and have learned that you don't like those. Why do you think that it's ok for them not to have those experiences?
There's a difference between "helping" people learn from bad experiences and opening up an old wound from said experiences.
I'd say the best examples are those with traumas, ranging anywhere from war times, torture, a horrible accident (car crash etc.) or rape.
If you accuse them of spazzing out in your gaming table and ruining YOUR fun with their reaction, guess who's the real a**hole at the table?
Here's a hint: It's definitely not the guy who just got some flashbacks and is either having a thousand yard stare or just sits there crying uncontrollably.
Not all bad experiences go away. For some, they NEVER go away.
In a game about heroes, I don't view my players as sensitive little softies that will be truly hurt by words and some unpleasantness. They can take the exposure to "words" and described situations, without being mentally polluted forever. They enjoy the combat, the tragedy, the danger and when things go really bad, some whoop with delight or nod with a grin and push on.
Terrible stuff, is what a villain does, and why the region actually needs heroes.
So much out there tries to coddle people now, ohhh the sensitive little babies might get hurt or find something they don't like, f*** all that, I am playing with adults, in mere fantasy worlds which are seriously in peril.
Do you inform people about such stuff in advance, Loyalist, or do you expect everyone at the table to adjust without warning?
While I understand you want your fun, the fact that you are playing with a group instead of just on your own still needs to be taken into account.
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"Realism" is not very high on my list of things to include in my games. That is the games should be logical and consistent, but there are many details I'm willing to leave out, because nobody in the group cares about them. I don't bother myself with encumbrance rules, or with asking my players when are their PCs using the toilet during a week-long raid into a dungeon.
So when it comes to bad, violent things happening, it's not as if I'll describe the gore and stuff just for the hack of it - I'll only do so if it serves a purpose in the story. Likewise with "extreme violence" -sure, if there's a reason to include child murder in the story or something I'll not shy away from it and the group won't have an issue, but we don't do that kind of stuff routinley or without purpose.
Do you inform people about such stuff in advance, Loyalist, or do you expect everyone at the table to adjust without warning?
While I understand you want your fun, the fact that you are playing with a group instead of just on your own still needs to be taken into account.
Where would the surprise be then?
Imagine you picked up a book, and on the first page it gave a summary of all the big, hard hitting stuff inside? What was coming would be ruined by it being given away, suspense killed like a run over animal.
Inform in advance? This isn't a weather forecast, this is storytelling. If you give up too much, when they get to something big and challenging, they already knew it was coming, it is already old.
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"Realism" is not very high on my list of things to include in my games. That is the games should be logical and consistent, but there are many details I'm willing to leave out, because nobody in the group cares about them. I don't bother myself with encumbrance rules, or with asking my players when are their PCs using the toilet during a week-long raid into a dungeon.
So when it comes to bad, violent things happening, it's not as if I'll describe the gore and stuff just for the hack of it - I'll only do so if it serves a purpose in the story. Likewise with "extreme violence" -sure, if there's a reason to include child murder in the story or something I'll not shy away from it and the group won't have an issue, but we don't do that kind of stuff routinley or without purpose.
Actually having to relieve themselves in a dungeon can be quite the challenge for low level pcs. I remember one got attacked by a giant worm (not intestinal), while his pants were down and his chainmail was hiked up. Very very amusing.
I didn't warn the player that being caught on the dunny when a monster attacked was coming up, yes, very insensitive I know. They could have still had a childhood fear of their arse being eaten while on the toilet, but that was a risk I was willing to take. It paid off well, being funny, memorable and the worm almost killed them all. There was challenge, danger, and a dab of fear. That worm was a big sucker and the injuries it inflicted immense.
Consideration of what might offend can be taken way too far. I'm here to roll dice, and awaken a world, all that pc sensitivity bull can be left at the office thanks.
While I agree you can't give a full list, saying a general level of graphicness is always a good idea. This is where the rating system (G, PG, PG-13, R, etc.) comes into play and is very useful.
:/
So I see that Cobalt and I have to ask, have you ever considered whether storytelling, a primal act, should be brought under such official classification? We don't answer to boards of classification, nor should we. We don't have to follow the restrictions and expectations of a rating system, we can go beyond such limits.
I run games and stories, official rating systems don't mean squat to me, nor do they work well within the worlds I run. E.g, a politics game may seem light and whimsical with jousts, gossip and beautiful courtiers. Then war breaks out, palaces are getting sacked and people are getting impaled (a politics game in the Forgotten realms was a lot like this). For another example, the capital may be orderly and pious, but the borderlands are not for the weak of stomach.
Depending on what the players do, the game can get darker or lighter. If they are successful the dodgy folk and darkness gets pushed back, if they fail or bend, the game can get quite dark indeed. If I tried to run a G game and restrict all behaviour to accord with children's programming and the standards of that medium, well, I'll just say that doesn't interest me at all, and I don't run for children.
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"Realism" is not very high on my list of things to include in my games. That is the games should be logical and consistent, but there are many details I'm willing to leave out, because nobody in the group cares about them. I don't bother myself with encumbrance rules, or with asking my players when are their PCs using the toilet during a week-long raid into a dungeon.
So when it comes to bad, violent things happening, it's not as if I'll describe the gore and stuff just for the hack of it - I'll only do so if it serves a purpose in the story. Likewise with "extreme violence" -sure, if there's a reason to include child murder in the story or something I'll not shy away from it and the group won't have an issue, but we don't do that kind of stuff routinley or without purpose.
Actually having to relieve themselves in a dungeon can be quite the challenge for low level pcs. I remember one got attacked by a giant worm (not intestinal), while his pants were down and his chainmail was hiked up. Very very amusing.
I didn't warn the player that being caught on the dunny when a monster attacked was coming up, yes, very insensitive I know. They could have still had a childhood fear of their arse being eaten while on the toilet, but that was a risk I was willing to take. It paid off well, being funny, memorable and the worm almost killed them all. There was challenge, danger, and a dab of fear. That worm was a big sucker and the injuries it inflicted immense.
Consideration of what might offend can be taken way too far. I'm here to roll dice, and awaken a world, all that pc sensitivity bull can be left at the office thanks.
Sure, such a thing could work for you once or twice, and most certainly go for it if it's appropriate for the moment, but always taking care to point out that your PCs are pooping should not be high priority. Similarily, I don't alway take pains to ensure the PCs know that that orc brute the warrior just cut in half sprayed his dark blood and gore all over the party. What, am I then going to also concern myself with how the party takes a shower in the dungeon?
It's not a question of being offensive, it's just a question of why are we playing this game. For me and my game the answer is not, "To feel as if fights are real, to the point of bothering ourselves with details such as gore or battle trauma or anything like that" - which means we only use gore to make a point, not as a constant in the game.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This does bring back memories though, years and years ago in a game I wasn't running. There was one warhammer fantasy game, it was meant to be dark and gritty and shadowy. Monsters and corruption and awful people all round. Now things got strange when we got an evil cultist in our clutches and decided, after unsuccessful questioning (he laughed at our weak charisma-type checks), to torture him for info (let us see who has the last laugh).
So this dm had set up this bleak and harsh world, but torture was a no no, apparently. No one else had an issue, except the dm. Start torturing the cultist, dm thinks we are just going to work him over with a bit of thuggery, nope. I propose a few things, dm starts to get weird.
Starts to be shocked at the very idea of torturing this mook. Gets all worked up. Heroes shouldn't be doing this, errrr, we are not really heroes. There are no heroes in this setting, the dm made this very clear, it is just jobbers fighting darkness. So the dm shuts it right down, the cultist suddenly magically becomes immune to torture. We go to take a bit off here and there, oh, he has already been tortured. He is unbreakable.
:/
That was a weird session. Since then, I've recognised the pcs may pursue torture if their back is to the wall, and I don't let myself get worked up by it, to the extent that I lose my cool and shut down what the players are trying to do to move the game forward. This isn't the legendary railroad adventure (G rated).
Another story, horror game. Everyone is jumpy in an old house, out from a cupboard pops a little girl, sprays a party member with a water pistol. There is much relief. Whewww, it is just a little girl. Then she throws a lighter at the pc and the fuel he has been sprayed with catches alight. As the pc thrashes around, the possessed child laughs and laughs. The roasted pc survived, got the girl in a sack, and beat her to death while describing it, he felt really entitled to his vengeance and the dm went along with it. Now this too was a horror game, and that player almost lost their character to a possessed little girl, so he took out some vengeance. But someone at the table half lost their shit over this, because apparently children are sacred little flowers that should never be harmed in game. What boll'ocks. It was totally in character, fit with the mood and setting, and they had one less possessed girl to deal with. Game on I say.
Sure, such a thing could work for you once or twice, and most certainly go for it if it's appropriate for the moment, but always taking care to point out that your PCs are pooping should not be high priority. Similarily, I don't alway take pains to ensure the PCs know that that orc brute the warrior just cut in half sprayed his..."Realism" is not very high on my list of things to include in my games. That is the games should be logical and consistent, but there are many details I'm willing to leave out, because nobody in the group cares about them. I don't bother myself with encumbrance rules, or with asking my players when are their PCs using the toilet during a week-long raid into a dungeon.
So when it comes to bad, violent things happening, it's not as if I'll describe the gore and stuff just for the hack of it - I'll only do so if it serves a purpose in the story. Likewise with "extreme violence" -sure, if there's a reason to include child murder in the story or something I'll not shy away from it and the group won't have an issue, but we don't do that kind of stuff routinley or without purpose.
Actually having to relieve themselves in a dungeon can be quite the challenge for low level pcs. I remember one got attacked by a giant worm (not intestinal), while his pants were down and his chainmail was hiked up. Very very amusing.
I didn't warn the player that being caught on the dunny when a monster attacked was coming up, yes, very insensitive I know. They could have still had a childhood fear of their arse being eaten while on the toilet, but that was a risk I was willing to take. It paid off well, being funny, memorable and the worm almost killed them all. There was challenge, danger, and a dab of fear. That worm was a big sucker and the injuries it inflicted immense.
Consideration of what might offend can be taken way too far. I'm here to roll dice, and awaken a world, all that pc sensitivity bull can be left at the office thanks.
Again, gore can be a storytelling device, as can filth. If the pcs are in festy surroundings, or being covered in blood constantly, that is going to leave a stain. One cannot grapple an ogre in a mud pit and remain clean. When you describe how dirty the party have become, they will know what they have been through.
:/
So I see that Cobalt and I have to ask, have you ever considered whether storytelling, a primal act, should be brought under such official classification? We don't answer to boards of classification, nor should we. We don't have to follow the restrictions and expectations of a rating system, we can go beyond such limits.
I run games and stories, official rating systems don't mean squat to me, nor do they work well within the worlds I run. E.g, a politics game may seem light and whimsical with jousts, gossip and beautiful courtiers. Then war breaks out, palaces are getting sacked and people are getting impaled (a politics game in the Forgotten realms was a lot like this). For another example, the capital may be orderly and pious, but the borderlands are not for the weak of stomach.
Depending on what the players do, the game can get darker or lighter. If they are successful the dodgy folk and darkness gets pushed back, if they fail or bend, the game can get quite dark indeed. If I tried to run a G game and restrict all behaviour to accord with children's programming and the standards of that medium, well, I'll just say that doesn't interest me at all, and I don't run for children.
So don't run a G game. Great. No one here is saying you should.
As long as your players know what they're getting into and are OK with it, run as gritty as you like. If they aren't going to be into it, wouldn't you rather know that up front?
Especially in a game that starts "light and whimsical with jousts, gossip and beautiful courtiers". An up front warning that it might not all be like that and if/when conflict happens it'll be bloody and nasty would be appropriate, since it isn't obvious from the start of the game.
I don't think anyone wants to submit their game to boards of classification, but I don't think "The game's violence will be roughly R-Rated. I'll avoid graphic detail that might push it farther, even though horrible things could happen. " is really limiting your...
Sometimes the game is Sansa Stark before her imprisonment, and sometimes the game is Sansa Start during her imprisonment (with the players being like the hound, lol).
This whole respect everyone's opinions, be careful of offending them, it isn't how I run my games. I've got real shit to do rather than dancing on eggshells.
I'll serve a very broad overview to get them in, but under no circumstances would I be telling them key events, mysteries, frightening perils or yeah, in session four you encounter a war criminal npc.
Is the violence gory? Well yeah, duh, you are swinging axes at eachother. That rogue over there just shivved a guard to death with a foot long blade (he says hello, he'll be free once he gets the coin purse). The dead guard leaking out all over the ground isn't "sleeping". I see no problem with violence and gore. If the players are unleashing the violence, they should know what they are doing (with their input too) and what is being done to them or attempted. Most of gaming is just talking after all. Killing folks with weapons and spells would be really messy, so I describe it as messy.
Bloody warnings, I play with adults that like surprises.
Lastly, on traps. If a trap totally murders you, that is going to be a gory end. The guillotine, wall of spears or spiked pit is not G rated.
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Bloody warnings, I play with adults that like surprises.
Not always?
Another story, horror game. Everyone is jumpy in an old house, out from a cupboard pops a little girl, sprays a party member with a water pistol. There is much relief. Whewww, it is just a little girl. Then she throws a lighter at the pc and the fuel he has been sprayed with catches alight. As the pc thrashes around, the possessed child laughs and laughs. The roasted pc survived, got the girl in a sack, and beat her to death while describing it, ...[snip]... But someone at the table half lost their s!@& over this, because apparently children are sacred little flowers that should never be harmed in game. What boll'ocks. It was totally in character, fit with the mood and setting, and they had one less possessed girl to deal with. Game on I say.
I dunno... I mean, you're a total bad-a, I get it, right? You would never be upset or offended by something as common place as beating a possessed little girl in a sack to death. You demand the gritty realism that requires a Dex check after potty breaks, you chew up rocks and spit out shrines to Lamashtu. Blood for the blood god! Skulls for the skull throne! Your mother doesn't tuck you into bed, she staples you in!
But apparently you've played with at least one person who's been put off by the light-hearted, in-character shenanigans you and your fellows could get up to?
I get that you want to run a pretty intense game, and more power to you. You probably know the people you game with very well, and are more than likely all on the same page. You probably all have a great time. But I don't think I'd last full a session, from the sound of it.
Your posts make it sound like looking out for a player's sensitivities is a bad thing, that it's some sort of deficiency or weakness to care whether or not the folks you play with are going to be disturbed when they immerse themselves in the story you're building together. I don't see it as walking on eggshells, or even being particularly PC. It's just a courteous spot of information to say, hey, I run a pretty rough game. If that's not something you're interested, let me know.
'Cause, mister, the second somebody tells me I actually have to role-play any aspect of my own personal waste managment, that's no longer a game for me.
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I am an adult. So are my players. So we should be able cope with even the worst depravities because its only make-belief, right? Wrong. Adults have hangups, things that go under your skin. Traumas that are just barely scabbed over, and never really heal. And really, your game shouldn't run a risk of causing psychological damage.
I happen to know one of my players is a rape survivor. She doesn't advertise this, and I only learned of it by accident. Imagine putting this player into a situation reminding her of that experience. Everyone has a few skeletons in their closets. Fortunately, most are not as horrible as this one. Still, imagine hitting one of these by accident. Really, the best thing you can hope for is a severe tongue-lashing.
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Bloody warnings, I play with adults that like surprises.
Part of being an adult is understanding your own limits, what upsets you, what you can handle, and more importantly, what you want to handle. Where people's limits are doesn't make them adults -- someone who likes watching Audition or the Saw films is no more "adult" than someone who recognizes that they'd rather be spending their time and money on an activity they find less stressful and more fun. What makes someone more or less an adult is their ability to recognize and define their own limits, as well as how they handle violations of those limits (which is not the same as seeking out those violations).
Another important part of being an adult is respecting other people's limits. Intentionally violating them doesn't make you adult; quite the opposite, in fact.
Bloody warnings, I play with adults that like surprises.Not always?
Another story, horror game. Everyone is jumpy in an old house, out from a cupboard pops a little girl, sprays a party member with a water pistol. There is much relief. Whewww, it is just a little girl. Then she throws a lighter at the pc and the fuel he has been sprayed with catches alight. As the pc thrashes around, the possessed child laughs and laughs. The roasted pc survived, got the girl in a sack, and beat her to death while describing it, ...[snip]... But someone at the table half lost their s!@& over this, because apparently children are sacred little flowers that should never be harmed in game. What boll'ocks. It was totally in character, fit with the mood and setting, and they had one less possessed girl to deal with. Game on I say.I dunno... I mean, you're a total bad-a, I get it, right? You would never be upset or offended by something as common place as beating a possessed little girl in a sack to death. You demand the gritty realism that requires a Dex check after potty breaks, you chew up rocks and spit out shrines to Lamashtu. Blood for the blood god! Skulls for the skull throne! Your mother doesn't tuck you into bed, she staples you in!
But apparently you've played with at least one person who's been put off by the light-hearted, in-character shenanigans you and your fellows could get up to?
I get that you want to run a pretty intense game, and more power to you. You probably know the people you game with very well, and are more than likely all on the same page. You probably all have a great time. But I don't think I'd last full a session, from the sound of it.
Your posts make it sound like looking out for a player's sensitivities is a bad thing, that it's some sort of deficiency or weakness to care whether or not the folks you play with are going to be disturbed when they immerse themselves in the story you're building together. I don't see it...
This isn't about me being a bad-ass, this is about presenting a world that is bad-ass. More Conan or Gemmell than Saturday morning cartoons. Although I think I've used an anvil trap before. :D
When i GM, i usually describe everything in graphic detail. And i don't shy away from having children die to make an impact. As for body horror, i use it if it serves a purpose, and then i use it GOOD. As for horror moments, i prefer suspense horror then scary stuff that jumps out. Easier to do, a hundred times more scary.
My villains are truly awful people (unless i need them to be a little sympathetic), evil means EVIL with blood of innocents dripping off the letters.
If disasters happen, they have repercussions. People die, homes are destroyed. I play for keeps with PCs loved ones, families pets.Of course, i tell all this beforehand to new players, so that they know what to expect.
And i don't do it all at once, after all, the purpose is to have fun.How about you?
I prefer my violence to be cartoon-like, non explicit. I do prefer black and white morality where the villains are truly EVIL (as you put it) but I prefer to have that implicit in the background story, rather than at the forefront where the PCs are participating.
Similarly, I feel uncomfortable watching movies like the Saw series and even Pulp Fiction and so forth for similar reasons - the explicit depiction of violence for entertainment makes me feel like I'm devaluing/disrespecting the reality of violence (or something).
It wouldnt actually stop me from playing in a game as it's a pretty mild and not terribly thought out "hangup", but that's my preference (and the way I run my games).
Bloody warnings, I play with adults that like surprises.Not always?
Another story, horror game. Everyone is jumpy in an old house, out from a cupboard pops a little girl, sprays a party member with a water pistol. There is much relief. Whewww, it is just a little girl. Then she throws a lighter at the pc and the fuel he has been sprayed with catches alight. As the pc thrashes around, the possessed child laughs and laughs. The roasted pc survived, got the girl in a sack, and beat her to death while describing it, ...[snip]... But someone at the table half lost their s!@& over this, because apparently children are sacred little flowers that should never be harmed in game. What boll'ocks. It was totally in character, fit with the mood and setting, and they had one less possessed girl to deal with. Game on I say.I dunno... I mean, you're a total bad-a, I get it, right? You would never be upset or offended by something as common place as beating a possessed little girl in a sack to death. You demand the gritty realism that requires a Dex check after potty breaks, you chew up rocks and spit out shrines to Lamashtu. Blood for the blood god! Skulls for the skull throne! Your mother doesn't tuck you into bed, she staples you in!
But apparently you've played with at least one person who's been put off by the light-hearted, in-character shenanigans you and your fellows could get up to?
I get that you want to run a pretty intense game, and more power to you. You probably know the people you game with very well, and are more than likely all on the same page. You probably all have a great time. But I don't think I'd last full a session, from the sound of it.
Your posts make it sound like looking out for a player's sensitivities is a bad thing, that it's some sort of deficiency or weakness to care whether or not the folks you play with are going to be disturbed when they immerse themselves in the story you're building together. I don't see it...
So, if I were to tell you, as your dm, "that your char needs to go in an underground desert, there are some rocks over there, what do you do?"
You would walk from the game?
Because while the daily biological functions of a character may not be important typically, in a game where you are playing a living breathing shitting creature, it may actually be quite relevant, lead to encounters, be a part of the story, and so on.
It is a variant of the you are stuck in a box with no air, how do you get out? Your character needs air, solve this problem.
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First of all you need to know your audience. And even then, terribly dark themes need to be handled with a deft and subtle hand or else you run the risk of going totally over the top. You want villains that are despised, but you don't want them to become genre parodies.
And even then there's the risk of going too far. Two campaigns ago I had a particular villain (Harishek Ap Thulkesh the Blind Clockmaker) that the PCs ended up having to do a favor for in exchange for information that they needed to go up against the main campaign BBEG. Deal with a devil sort of proposition. In the end I made my players cry. Not their characters, but the players themselves, because of the moral dilemma I put them into, and what emotional strings I ended up tugging.
While exceedingly effective and immersive for the campaign, and providing motivation for the PCs, I actually don't like looking back at the storyhour retelling of that plot arc. It's so genuinely dark that I feel awkward and bad for having written it. It's grimdark territory, and even I as the author don't like to revisit it. :/
Of course it appears that horribly dark stuff is something I'm not bad at writing (see BotD 3. After that I totally switched gears and wrote a half-faerie dragon supplement for JBE). *chuckle* The fact that I write a lot of horribly bleak and hellish stuff is ironic, because I'm hardly morose in real life: I'm generally irreverent, whimsical, and cheerful 99% of the time.
So again, horrible and terrible stuff in games is ok, but be subtle and clever about it to avoid overdoing it.
Bloody warnings, I play with adults that like surprises.Part of being an adult is understanding your own limits, what upsets you, what you can handle, and more importantly, what you want to handle. Where people's limits are doesn't make them adults -- someone who likes watching Audition or the Saw films is no more "adult" than someone who recognizes that they'd rather be spending their time and money on an activity they find less stressful and more fun. What makes someone more or less an adult is their ability to recognize and define their own limits, as well as how they handle violations of those limits (which is not the same as seeking out those violations).
Another important part of being an adult is respecting other people's limits. Intentionally violating them doesn't make you adult; quite the opposite, in fact.
This is so true. ^^
First of all you need to know your audience. And even then, terribly dark themes need to be handled with a deft and subtle hand or else you run the risk of going totally over the top. You want villains that are despised, but you don't want them to become genre parodies.
And even then there's the risk of going too far. Two campaigns ago I had a particular villain (Harishek Ap Thulkesh the Blind Clockmaker) that the PCs ended up having to do a favor for in exchange for information that they needed to go up against the main campaign BBEG. Deal with a devil sort of proposition. In the end I made my players cry. Not their characters, but the players themselves, because of the moral dilemma I put them into, and what emotional strings I ended up tugging.
While exceedingly effective and immersive for the campaign, and providing motivation for the PCs, I actually don't like looking back at the storyhour retelling of that plot arc. It's so genuinely dark that I feel awkward and bad for having written it. It's grimdark territory, and even I as the author don't like to revisit it. :/
Of course it appears that horribly dark stuff is something I'm not bad at writing (see BotD 3. After that I totally switched gears and wrote a half-faerie dragon supplement for JBE). *chuckle* The fact that I write a lot of horribly bleak and hellish stuff is ironic, because I'm hardly morose in real life: I'm generally irreverent, whimsical, and cheerful 99% of the time.
So again, horrible and terrible stuff in games is ok, but be subtle and clever about it to avoid overdoing it.
Funny you should say that. I'm rather morose most of the time, and I like writing idealistic stuff instead of creating cynical tales. Seems that we are opposites.
Lately I've zig-zagged between light and dark but I've never seen the appeal in Warhammer 40k levels of Grimdark, because it usually devolves into Grimderp instead.