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Hi.
What the title says. Combat Ability is primary. Skills second. Will saves 3rd.
Basically I want a tougher rogue.
Considering the Guide and Skirmisher ranger as well, but would prefer Duelist if we can make it awesome.
So far I am thinking
Freehand Fighter 5 - Dodge bonus+ Weapon Training (with gloves of Dueling)
Rogue 2 (for access to Talents)
Duelist 2
Or
Weapon Master 3- Weapon Training
Scout/Brute rogue 4- More talents amd Brutal Beating/Scouts charge
Duelist 2
Or Lore Warden 6
Duelist 3
Obviously I need Dodge, Mobility and Finesse. I think Crane style would be awesome
Free Hand Fighter 5/Rogue 2 looks like a strong base. +1 dodge, eligible for Weapon Spec, one Rogue talent, +1d6 sneak attack, and evasion. That gives Duelist 2. Crane style is potentially interesting, but doesn't synergize well with Duelist's Parry and Riposte.
Human seems good, for skills and bonus feat. Patching Will save seems like a good idea. So,
1 Fighter 1, Dodge, Weapon Finesse (B), W Focus (rapier) (B)
2 Rogue 1,
3 Fighter 2, Mobility (B), Iron Will
4 Rogue 2
5 Fighter 3
6 Fighter 4, W Spec (rapier) (B), Improved Iron Will
7 Fighter 5
8 Duelist 1
9 Duelist 2 Improved Critical (rapier)
leaving you to select one rogue talent.
Screw sneak attacks.
MoMs 2 and Lore warden 5
grab fighter first 2 level so you can get Crane style as a fighter feat and Crane wing and riposte with Monk bonus.
Grab dervish dancer at 5, squeeze in mobility with a bonus.
Dump Str, pump Dex > Int = Wis and grab your dueling gloves.
Enjoy your Dex, Int, and Wis to AC, Dex to attack and damage, Negate and counter 1 attack/round, fighting defenisvly for -1 to attack and +4? 5? to AC
Human probably best for it (extra feat needed with all the cheese you doing early) but if you delay Duelist entry for a level or 2 you can use any race.
With your mobility, you can standard action attack the meatshield, fighting defensively, then walk around him (+8 to AoO) and stand near the caster/archer. Grab step up ASAP and enjoy your good/great saves, high CMB from the Lore warden levels, and 1 point from full BaB.
Use Riposte on your First attack at full BaB, then use crane to eat the Firegiant/pit fiend's Primary and your Riposte on the iterative. Easy with your bard buddies bonus, and your l33t gear.
Or try to Disarm him with the Crane strike.
Ok.
You have convinced me to go MoMS.
Mostly cause the Synergy is way better.
MoMS1, H-dodge, 1-Crane Style, Kirin Style
Lore Warden1 Weapon Focus
MoMS 2 Kirin Strike, Mobility
Lore Warden 2 Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
Lore Warden 3 ] Manuvere Mastery Dervish Dance
Lore Warden 4 Crane Wing
Lore Warden 5 Weapon Training Weapon Spec.
Duelist 1 Power Attack
Duelist 2
20 point Buy
Str 13 (for power attack)
Dex 17 (lvl 4 point here
Con 12
Int 17 (lvl 8 points here)
Wis 12
Cha 7
At lvl 9
AC10+4+2+1= 17 Naked.
+2 Elven Chain (+8 total)
+2 Amulet
+1 ROP = 28 AC unbuffed.
Fighting Defensively- -1 to attack for +4 dodge bonus= 32 AC at level 9.
+ Deflect 1 Attack per round and Free AOO.
Because Canny Defense improves, by 11 my unbuffed AC is 30 at 11 (34 fighting Defensively)
Is that about right?
Could this be done better?
As I read it I can use Kirin Style/Crane style at the same time.
Kirin ups AC/saves vs a particular creature and lets me add double my Int to standard action strikes?
I believe that Kirin Strike just adds double your Int bonus as untyped damage, as a swift action. This means that you can add it perfectly fine to a full round action, but not in a round where you use Kirin Style to identify a creature, as that is also a swift action. Unless you sacrifice a move action, of course, and so forth. Action economy will likewise prevent you from adding it to all your attacks. There's bound to be some nifty pounce build possible, though, that makes use of it.
Note, that Kirin Strike works on ranged and weapon attacks. It's a pretty versatile ability, as this includes, for instance, magical Ray spells, or Spellstrike/Spellcombat by a Magus. [n the latter case it may not be all that good, as it gets in the way of Arcane Accuracy, which tends to be one of the default Arcana.]
Reporting in, mister ranger sir! (How're things?)
Have you checked out Osterik's Guide to the Duelist yet? Here's the thread.
Beyond that, I tend to favour moderate strength, power attack and gloves of dueling as my main damage sources (as well as precise strike) and just jack up the flat number as much as possible. Style feats, items, or in rare cases fighting defensively with combat expertise. (A halfling could opt for reckless fighter or whatever it was from APG as well). My duelist was small sized, so patching his damage up was my major concern (but I feel like every duelist should spend most of their resources here, skills should come naturally)
Did you want sneak attack? If no, then just your lore warden levels which I came into this thread to suggest for the fluff (and mechanical sense) of using your manuevers on flatfooted targets (instead of denying them their AC when your hit rolls are already very good, instead debilatating them and limiting their ability to AoO you for it. Disarm can end fights on humanoids well into the game, and dirty trick is good with the feats invested in it).
Skills I think the MOMS seems to have you covered, as would levels in any high skill class to broaden your class skill pool (like you say, ranger works).
As for saving throws, traits and feats, and don't dump wisdom. I'm a big fan of stacking the swashbuckler rogue's trap sense replacement or fighter bravery with the courageous trait (and being a halfling for icing on the cake) for a nice chunky bonus against fear effects. Half elves/elves can do something similair with Birthmark for a +4 against enchantment effects. It probably isn't the most optimal choice of trait in either scenario, but it's a big number on a flat modifier, and those are one of the sweetest joys pathfinder has to offer.
Dotting this thread, because my Gnome Duelist (my first PC, cursed with 3.5 swashbuckler levels) is going to be revived at some point before the end of said campaign. I've had a 9th level duelist sitting around in various shapes and styles since the Core Rulebook was released...
I believe that Kirin Strike just adds double your Int bonus as untyped damage, as a swift action. This means that you can add it perfectly fine to a full round action, but not in a round where you use Kirin Style to identify a creature, as that is also a swift action. Unless you sacrifice a move action, of course, and so forth. Action economy will likewise prevent you from adding it to all your attacks. There's bound to be some nifty pounce build possible, though, that makes use of it.
Note, that Kirin Strike works on ranged and weapon attacks. It's a pretty versatile ability, as this includes, for instance, magical Ray spells, or Spellstrike/Spellcombat by a Magus. [n the latter case it may not be all that good, as it gets in the way of Arcane Accuracy, which tends to be one of the default Arcana.]
If Kirin Strike works on a swift action, that is bloody powerful.
Even 1 hand power attack, fighting Defensively.Damage= 1d6+2 wpn enhancement+ 2str+6power attack+2precise strike+8Int
1D6+20 is decent damage for a 1 hander.
Realised since I am wearing armor, no wis bonus to armor. No point in 12wis.
So
14 STR
17 Dex (1 point at 4)
12 Con
Int 17 (1 point at 8)
Wis 10
Cha 7
Fairly low HP fighter but with 4skills per level 18Int (with level) and human is 9 skills per pevel.
I could put favored bonus into fighter for 5 more HP.
Tons of sp (for a fighter)
28-32 AC is pretty Tanky at level 9
BAB (+2 Scimitar, PA, fighting Defensively), wpn fcs, wpn training, gloves is 1d20+2-3-1+8+5+1+1+2= 1d20+18 at level 9.
Damage (Kirin Strike) is 1d6+2+2+2+6+8=1d6+20
with crane and kirin you are action starved. You need one swift to activate each of the 2 style, then 1 swift to identify the creature with kirin, and then ANOTHER swifth for adding 2xINT to damage. 4 swift means 4 turn. I think is pretty usless.
On the numbers.
You don't need the 14 str since you use it for nothing. put 13 and save the 2 point buy. Even having Cha 8 is more usefull (+1 diplomacy and bluff). Dex is more important than INT imho so you should prioritize it. It's a pity you can't squeeze in the rogue talent, magic trick to cast shield 3/d is really good.
aldori swordlord fighter AT (not the PrC) might be worth looking into, since it gets lots of duelist goodies iirc.
Swordlords don't get weapon training, and the only good thing they get is steel net at level 7. Not worth it.
Missed that you use dex for damage with a scimitar as well. Thought it was attack only.
Still not sure about 13 Str. Though that would allow me to go with 12 Wis instead of 10.
Str damage would REALLY suck since my carry capacity would suck.
The level 9 attack is 1d20+18
Damage is 1d6+ 22 (with Kirin Strike ) or +14 without.
Saves (assuming cloak +2) 10/11/7 (+2 vs enchantment for Latent Psion) Not stunning but better than a typical fighter I guess
28-32ish AC
Good numbers for level 9.
If I am willing to lose Evasion (overrated) I can also combine monk of the sacred mountain for +1AC and Toughness at level 2.
Or
Go MoMS/Weapon Adept for free weapon focus, which frees up a combat feat. Considering my low HP, the sacred mountain monk is better.
Martial Artist allows any alignment.
Is there any vastly better style feats the Kirin Style/Strike.
This guy is starting to look pretty unhittable with decent damage, high skills. Where to go from here? Feat wise beyound 9?
Swordlords don't get weapon training, and the only good thing they get is steel net at level 7. Not worth it.
They lose weapon training 1 for disarming strike. They still receive weapon training 2, 3, etc.
I'll also be to differ that steel net is the only thing good about them. Disarming strike allows damage while you neuter most humanoids attacks, and defensive parry is free AC anytime you're full attacking.
Counterattack can also be a good way to stop an iterative attack sequence from someone if you can disarm them on the AoO.
The Swordlord AT, with a couple levels dip into monk (Crane Style synergizes well with the AT), and a single level dip into the PrC can make a very good defensive duelist type character IMO.
Crane style is potentially interesting, but doesn't synergize well with Duelist's Parry and Riposte.
Actually this is far from the truth. Crane Parry and Riposte can and does stack with Duelist Parry and Riposte, allowing a one-on-one fight to be rather one sided for the Duelist. Parrying two attacks, and counter-attacking on those attacks, is a tasty thing.
For the OP: I have a Duelist in the works, I went starting out with Master of Many Styles Monk, making my DEX and WIS my primary stats with INT last so my unarmored AC is high. I ignored STR, CON and CHA altogether. I started with Snapping Turtle style, though this was in hindsight a mistake since I was new to Pathfinder Monks, for the increase in AC. I would, instead, go Crane first, into Snake, and finally Panther. Panther and Snake styles stack with Mobility and Duelist Improved Mobility for some serious AoO. Move around the field, provoking AoO at +8 AC, using Snake Style to counter-attack their AoO, and attacking again on a targets of your choice (Panther style AoO are not true AoO, and the number of attacks is based on WIS mod, not DEX/Combat Reflexes). This will not only allow you quite a few attacks in a single round, but also open the field up for your party to maneuver into position for flanks and targeting the weak members of the enemies.
Free Hand Fighter is the fighter variant I went with since it compliments Duelist well, being that it uses only a single weapon (as does Duelist) and builds on AC.
The downside is BAB is low, for a low to-hit unless you max DEX and weapon finesse, and the feat taxes to get those AoO leaves you without Weapon Focus and Spec. If you're attempting something a little harder hitting, this isn't so much your bag, but if you're looking for a very tactical support character beasting 1v1, it should do well.
Using crane style against the highest iterative also lowers the requirement for the sacrificed attack for the duelist parry and riposte. That makes it a much more appealing ability, since you do not have to sacrifice your highest iterative just for a chance at this move.
And with both of them, if you're below level 10, means 1v1, your opponent won't land an attack against you, and even at 20th level, means their highest chance is at BAB 10. Also to note, both Attack of Opportunities made for Crane and Duelist Ripostes are made at the highest BAB for the Duelist, a very fair trade.
True.
The reason I don't like Panther or snake style is the AOO’s they grant are Unarmed strikes.
I want to use my scimitar or at least I need a bloody Amulet of mighty fists (that sucks) other wise I would definitely get Panther style chain.
MoMS and weapon adept are not compatible (they bot replace perfect self). Besides, being dex based and having grace, your reflexes are going to give you a lot of mileage from evasion. I wouldn't replace it.
Don't forget that wearing armor removes your Wis to AC. Late game when you're rolling with a 22 or so in Wis you want to be naked.
Bonus synergy: you can dump Str because armor is the heaviest item you have!
If he invests in Wisdom. A MoMS dip with 10 base wisdom before items? Armor might be for the best. He doesn't have flurry of blows, and he won't stick around long enough to see a second increase to his AC or speed. Not much reason not to go with what works for everyone else.
Getting his Wisdom boosted enough that i would cover the difference would be rather expensive, especially when he wants to use the headband item slot to boost INT first for the same reason of AC, but without as many strings.
Kirin Style is a trap for the Duelist, it works on your 4th round of combat IF you can identify the creature. If you are taking Lore Warden, you do have a better chance of that, since you will have more skill points, but then you might have to start making some hard choices.
If you are using Monk as part of your build, a high wisdom is actually better than a high intelligence during the low levels because you get that AC all at once instead of incrementally once you break Duelist. It also helps with the will saves which you said was 3rd priority.
The scimitar and the Aldori Dueling Sword are the only ways to get Dex to your damage without having the Agile Enchantment, but at 9th level you should be able to get that. One thing you might consider is some other weapons. The Light Pick is nice for its x4 crit and unique flavor, and I like the Dagger for its versatility in that it can be thrown or wielded in melee. If you go with the Dagger, you can go 8 levels of Sohei and flurry with it and get Weapon Training, and it's one of the only ways to get Precise strike at range, and you can use Piranha Strike with it and then you don't really need to invest in strength at all.
@Twigs, Thanks for the plug.
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I have a mutt duelist + 3 other classes build that I'm currently playing. While it might not be what you're looking to build, it might give you some more food for thought STR Ranger.
This is my current Duelist/multiclass tank, dps, skill jockey character. It's one of my PFS characters.
Human, 20 point buy. all level up points go into Dex.
STR: 7 DEX: 20 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 11 CHA: 7
Class progression Barbarian (urban) 1 / Magus (kensai) 2 / Fighter (weapon master) 3 / Duelist 6
Traits: 1. Reactionary (+2 initiative) 2. Berserker of the Society (+3 rage rounds)
Feat progression
N1. Dodge
H1 Weapon Finesse
M2 Weapon Proficiency, wakizashi
M2 Weapon Focus, wakizashi
N3. Piranha Strike
F4 Mobility
N5. Combat Expertise
Item. Improved Unarmed Strike
N7. Crane Style
F7. Butterfly's Sting
I7. Improved Unarmed Strike
N9. Crane Wing
D10. Combat Reflexes
N11. Crane Riposte
Ability progression
1. Controlled Rage (+4 DEX, rounds/day=con+7); Crowd Control (+1 hit, +1 AC when adjacent to 2+ foes)
2. Spellstrike, Canny Defense (+INT to AC), Spells
3. Spell Combat
4. Nothing :(
5. Weapon Guard (+1 CMD against disarm, sunder)
6. Weapon Training (+1 hit, +1 dmg)
7. Precise Strike (+Duelist level to dmg); Improved Reaction (+2 initiative)
8. Parry (forgo an attack to parry an incoming one on herself or allies)
9. Enhanced Mobility (additional +4 AC against AOOs from movement)
10. Grace (+2 Reflex saves)
11. Riposte (counterattack after parrying)
12. Acrobatic Charge (charge over difficult terrain)
Required items
1. Ioun Stone, Deep Red Sphere -- 8,000 gp. Stick this in your wayfinder (using the Resonance Method 1 in *Seeker of Secrets*) and it gives you Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
2. Agile keen wakizashi -- 8,300+ gp. This is your baby. It adds your DEX > STR to melee damage and gives you a 15-20 threat range with a light, one handed piercing weapon. You can do the same thing with a scimitar or rapier, but the wakizashi gives you both the damage types (P & S) and is also a lot more unique.
3. Belt of Incredible Dexterity -- 4,000+ gp. DEX drives your build. Get this and upgrade it quick.
4. Headband of Vast Intelligence -- 4,000+ gp. This gives you more skills as well as increases your AC. A good use of gold.
5. Gloves of Dueling -- 15,000 gp. Your three level dip in fighter gives you Weapon Training, and for 15,000 gold you get to upgrade it to a +3 bonus. That's a good price for +2 more to hit and damage.
Other items
1. Muleback Cords -- 800 gp. That 7 strength can slow you down, so anything to artificially jack that number up works in your favor.
2. Useful Wands -- *Mage armor, shield* -- These two wands work wonders for you. Since your DEX is so high (you'll be pushing it into the 30s with your rage at later levels), it helps not to worry about that bulky crap other people call 'armor.' +4 AC most times, and +4 more if you can get it off.
3. Cheap Ioun Stones -- There are a plethora of cracked ioun stones that cost 200 gold, and give you a +1 circumstance bonus to various skill checks. There's also one that gives you a +1 bonus to Initiative, but I think that one is a little more costly (500?).
Why the multiclassing?
Barbarian 1 nets you an "oh s*##" button for extra damage, hit, and AC, as well as some well needed HP.
The level dips of magus hurts your BAB, but two levels gives you proficiency as well as weapon focus, *as well* as an extra attack (effectively) when Spell Combating. It also tosses you a spell list, which means that your wand of *mage armor* works every time. You also get use magic device on your skill list, which you'll want to max even with your CHA penalty, so you can drop *shield* as well.
Three levels of fighter give you the feats to grab Butterfly's Sting, which in and of itself is a broken feat. For the uninitiated: " When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical." So you hit, crit, and pass it (dealing only normal damage), then your cavalier/magus/barbarian/paladin runs up and hits it for a trillion damage with their weapon. Prepare to be loved by your melee. It also gives you Weapon Training, which allows *gloves of dueling* to proc.
Duelist's parry coupled with crane wing and your already outrageous AC makes you untouchable. It also increases your damage further with precise strike, making you fairly deadly on your own.
Since it's a build for a PFS character, I've only taken it to 12, but the idea is pretty straight forward: a dex based, one handed tank/utility/melee character's best friend. My current one is level 10 with all the above items (+6 DEX item, +4 INT item), and does his job pretty well. I have a base AC of 23 (10+8 DEX+4 INT+1 dodge), that then skyrockets to the 40's when I want it to (+4 *mage armor*, +4 *shield*, +3 expertise, +4 defensively, +2 rage). I can also parry two attacks a round with parry and crane wing if needed. I can full attack when hasted and spell combating for 4 attacks at level 10, each 1d6+22 (+8 DEX, +1 weapon, +3 Weapon Training, +4 Precise, +6 Piranha) and threatens on a 15-20. I have useful skills (acro, disable device, knowledges, perception, spellcraft, umd) and decent health to boot. I also have a +13 (8 DEX + 1 Ioun Stone + 2 trait + 2 duelist) initiative without Improved Initiative.
It's pretty janky, but pretty fun.
I have a mutt duelist + 3 other classes build
Did you miss a number there? the barbarian 1/ magus 2/ fighter 3 only gives you a +5 bab, which wouldn't qualify for duelist.
