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The most common offenders I've seen mentioned are Nyrissa herself and the ties of the Cult of Gyronna to the barbarians, Iraveti and Pitax.
I've listened to the Chronicles podcast and they had some good ideas for foreshadowing these things a little better, and I intend to implement them. They include:
Have a kingdom event in book 2 where a scholar of the River Kingdoms pays a visit. He can tell the PCs the history of the Cult of Gyronna and about the city of Heibarr.
Create a love interest between Gregory the Bard(?) and Malgorzata(?) the Priestess of Gyronna.
Do you have any other suggestions of good ways to foreshadow the events in books 5 and 6 earlier in the campaign?
Specifically, I'd really like some ways to foreshadow Nyrissa early on, as I've heard so many people say she didn't work for them. I really like her, and the fact that she's behind the scenes pulling so many strings is one of my favorite aspects of the AP.
I've been thinking that I will make it clear early on that there is some "mastermind" manipulating events (and the players). My hope is to impress this upon them so well that every time they encounter a new villain, they ask, "Is this the one behind everything?", and then each time they find that that person is actually being manipulated by someone else. In this way I hope to create a trail of breadcrumbs that will eventually lead them to Nyrissa. I think if I can get across the idea that the PCs themselves are being manipulated, it will motivate them to get to the bottom of it.
However, I haven't yet come up with any good specific ways to accomplish this. Any ideas you have and/or anecdotes of what you tried in your game and how it did or didn't work will be greatly appreciated!
** spoiler omitted **
Great thread. I have nothing to contribute here, as I am just getting set to run my game, but posting to dot. Maybe adding more once I read through all of the AP's again. Thanks for reminding me to listen to the Chronicles Podcast about these!
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I would humbly submit the Legendary Games adventures Cold Mountain by Jason Nelson (already available) and the upcoming Horns of the Hunted by Matt Goodall (previewed here and here) as excellent resources to work in foreshadowing for active (and often hostile) fey involvement. Cold Mountain does not directly implicate the spoilered BBEG but does have a section dedicated to its connections to the AP as it presages a much more active role for the fey as well as giving PCs a resource in learning more about the land and the spirits within it (including the prime movers of Kingmaker #3 as well as the final end villains). Horns of the Hunted is more directly connected to the machinations of that final boss and her servants, having them run around making trouble much earlier and much more directly than in the published AP.
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Thank you for bringing this to my attention, Jason! I heard an interview you did on a podcast (I believe it was Chronicles), and I checked out Legendary Games at that time, but you guys didn't have any Kingmaker stuff yet, and it fell off my radar.
Heading over there now to get Cold Mountain. Can't wait till Horns of the Hunted comes out.
Ordered Cold Mountain!
What's the expected release date of Horns of the Hunted?
I would humbly submit the Legendary Games adventures Cold Mountain by Jason Nelson (already available) and the upcoming Horns of the Hunted by Matt Goodall (previewed here and here) as excellent resources to work in foreshadowing for active (and often hostile) fey involvement. Cold Mountain does not directly implicate the spoilered BBEG but does have a section dedicated to its connections to the AP as it presages a much more active role for the fey as well as giving PCs a resource in learning more about the land and the spirits within it (including the prime movers of Kingmaker #3 as well as the final end villains). Horns of the Hunted is more directly connected to the machinations of that final boss and her servants, having them run around making trouble much earlier and much more directly than in the published AP.
Ooooh. So picking that up in a couple of weeks!
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Cold Mountain & Horns of the HuntedOk Jason,
Ya got me very interested. I want! I've just spent money trying to find
more Fey related monsters, templates etc to insert into my KM game to
flesh out that side of things...
Only question is - when does Horns of the Hunted come out. It may be
on the site - but I couldn't see with a quick look.
Did you say you were looking for fey-related monsters? Cause we have those, and they're AWESOME! Or a deluxe set of fabulously detailed pregens?
Horns of the Hunted should be out around the middle of June, as should the fabulous fey wonderment of Beyond the Bright Veil (previewed on our site, and linked here in the Compatible 3rd Party Products section), a sequel to the Coldwood Codex, and MORE!!!
We will probably get one more product out before the end of the month, but that one's a surprise. You're gonna like it, though. I gar-on-tee. :)
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Thank you for bringing this to my attention, Jason! I heard an interview you did on a podcast (I believe it was Chronicles), and I checked out Legendary Games at that time, but you guys didn't have any Kingmaker stuff yet, and it fell off my radar.
Heading over there now to get Cold Mountain. Can't wait till Horns of the Hunted comes out.
Ordered Cold Mountain!
What's the expected release date of Horns of the Hunted?
Thanks for your purchase! Best guess on HotH, as I mentioned in the previous post, is middle of June. Art is in. Manuscript is close to review stage, maps are in progress, and once it's all ready to rock it's layout time, so I'd say if we get it out by June 15 I'll be very happy, and so will you!
Here's a link to a post where I discussed some things I did in my campaign, that might be useful to you.
In particular, the stuff behind the spoiler tag in that post.
When my PC's killed the Stag Lord they found his ring (from N) and ignored it (just a non-magic silver ring? sell it!)
Now they are looking at the end of book 2, and have a nice little kingdom started. And the "Baron" is looking for a Bard Cohort (for when he takes Leadership). To "sing his praises".
In my Kingmaker, trouble is now starting with the Lord Mayor (the party just learned he passed a vote of no confidence regarding his sponsorship of the 4x charters, instead of spending that money to hire and equip more mercenary troops).
Turns out that when the PC's sold that "petty silver ring", it ended up in the jewelery markets of Restov, and a certain under council member picked it up....and now wears it to every council meeting. N now has a direct link to the leadership of Restov, and is using it to corrupt and weaken the only kingdom currently in a position to harm her (and the most likely source of the foretold "adventuring party" - new rules will be imposed outlawing "adventuring" as it "stirs up elder evils")
The PC's just got invited to a Grand Ball in Restov, at which they will unknowingly be introduced to the council member with the ring (an underling no more....) and have an opportunity to recognize the ring they sold....
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I thought it would be cool if the PCs found that lock of hair somehow (probably on the Stag Lord's person when they kill him), and also find similar locks of hair upon other pawns of Nyrissa. This could be a clue that someone is manipulating them all and at least what their hair looks like.
My only pause is the possibility of the PCs figuring out someway of using Nyrissa's hair against her (sympathetic magic) that would give them too much advantage. I would assume, though, if this were possible, she wouldn't be handing her hair out to people.
I went with the rings, too. I made the Stag Lord's one a Ring of Climbing and worked the lock of hair into the ring itself (since a Ring of Climbing is normally a piece of cord or twine by the fluff).
All of them will work as normal (even the Ring of Bestial Friendship) but anyone wearing them takes a penalty on saves against fae spells and SLAs, and a double penalty against those cast by Nyrissa herself.
Our diviner wizard may work out a way to use them against her later, but given that Nyrissa is mostly alone in a nondescript room, I don't think scrying will give away too much.
One word, dreams. In my campaign I use dreams to foreshadow events. There are several hexes where the pcs see effects of Nyrissa's influence. The first night the pcs explore the hex, they have a collective dream of a beautiful fey woman with glowing green eyes; however, the entire landscape is mutable shadows (think plane of shadows) and they cannot see her with any great detail (just the eyes). The first time they see her slay a unicorn, then give the staglord a lock of hair, then send a black dragon after a silver dragon, etc., etc. Based upon the limited description and the shadow plane throw off, they are unable to decipher her true identity until it is time.
Why the shadow plane? Count Ranulc. It was Nyrissa's love for Count Ranulc, the Eldest once exiled to the plane of shadows, that tore Briar from her. Count Ranulc has been missing for a long time and his whereabouts are unknown. My twist is that Count Ranulc was imprisoned by the archwizard Nex when Nex attacked the city of Absalom. County Ranulc cannot free himself but he believes that Nyrissa could free him if made whole again. Since Nyrissa cannot be healed without first dying, he sends visions to those he believes will be in opposition to her in the hopes that they will destroy her current body with Briar and thereby allow Nyrissa to reform in the First World whole again and with a purpose to seek out Count Ranulc.
Hope that helps.
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Ok, here's another question. I ran the numbers, and if I run Cold Mountain, it will end up with the PCs being more than a level ahead of where they should be. Assuming Horns of the Hunted is similar, they will end up being 2 or even 3 levels ahead of where they should be in Kingmaker if I run both modules.
What is a good way to deal with this? If the PCs are that far ahead of the power curve, the encounters will be a pushover and no fun. I could add to the encounters, but that's a lot of extra work, and that will result in the PCs getting even farther ahead of where they should be, which will only compound the problem.
I thought about going back and forth between slow and medium advancement, but that opens its own can of worms as it would necessitate chaning the PCs xp total every time I switched from one to the other.
How would you recommend I handle this? If you've run into this in your own games, I'd love to hear how you solved the problem.
Simply give them less exp? Or tell them "Now is the time to level up."
I do number one, it's not like they actually go like "Wow, that's not a lot". They enjoy leveling, but they enjoy the game more :D
I still give them exp, but it's usually less thatn they deserve (I round down) and when they have done something extraordinary I give them bonus exp..
And this just HAPPENS to be in the right time so they can level and be on-par with the progression... What a coincidence, wouldn't you say? :D
For xp, levels, and good encounters think about adding simple templates. The advance template is particularly well.
Honestly, switching away from encounter based XP o storyline based XP was one of the best decisions we made in our game. It removes the burden of arithmetic, and allows everyone to focus on the story as opposed to focusing on the number of points they've accrued. But beyond that, it allows, as many have said, to keep giving the Players more content to work through, and not have to do more work than you already have to as a GM. I'd seriously consider making the switch, as the Adventure Paths all indicate where your players should be as they progress through them.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I've done the same in my last two campaigns - ditched xp entirely and just gone to ad hoc leveling when it seems like a good time to level up, usually after completing a major story goal. It works fine and cuts out a bit of micromanaging that really doesn't add much if anything to the fun value of the game. It also makes things easier if you have a gaming group where attendance fluctuates, as people who show up less don't end up getting left behind level-wise (though they'll usually end up with less gear than those who play more often).
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That's definitely a possibility, but I really don't want to eliminate xp. For one thing, it fosters the perception that I'm just arbitrarily handing out levels, as opposed to the players earning them. Also, this solution would still result in them going a REALLY long time without leveling each time I threw in a module.
Rather, I'm working on a system where their xp will go into a separate, temporary pool, when they start going too far beyond where they should be. They will be able to use this xp to buy extra feats. It will basically work out to a level's worth of xp will buy them 1 extra feat.
So if I throw in 2 extra modules, each giving about a level's worth of xp, they'll end up with 2 extra feats by the time they reach 18th level. I don't think this will overbalance, especially not as much as if they'd gained those 2 extra levels. But they will still feel like they're earning something.
I think that if I present this to the players in the beginning, and let them know that the alternatives were either not running the extra modules, not getting xp for the extra modules, or me just handing out levels when I felt it was appropriate, they'll be cool with it. I've gotten to a point where I would have loved an extra feat or two to further my concept with pretty much every character I've ever played in 3.0, 3.5 or Pathfinder.
This system will also allow me to throw in extra encounters to flesh out the AP whenever I wish and not worry about what it will do to their advancement track.
This doesn't address the WBL issue of adding a bunch of stuff, but unlike xp, gold is very easy to get rid of.
The first couple of books, at least, are very tight on XP to begin with. So if you ditch the less interesting quests and keep random encounters to a minimum, a couple of extra modules shouldn't put them too far ahead. You could also maybe lower the XP bonuses associated with kingdom building, and ditch the XP for exploring hexes after book 1.
Or, you could use the slow XP progression, though I think with that method you'd have to add at least one module to each book to keep them on track.