Crafting TPK

[Grimmy]

So it looks like the Pizza Lord reading is definitely not RAI, going by the FAQ and SKR quote, right?

I think I will still adopt Pizza Lords take as a house rule for my games.

[Bullfrogg2000]

Are materials a requirement ? If so then then why not take a +5. That is what is being said. Caster lvl if you don't meet it take a +5 if you even consider taking it ( a lot of people don't )
If a GP value and time is all you need then yes you could spin straw into gold +5 for not having the spell but true none the less.
I read things the other way I don't really agree with the +5 interpretation others don't as well not just me and all I was saying is that no one has to be wrong just play it the way you read it and if some one at the table doesn't agree then when they run they cap lay it their way.
I don't think I'm lost on the subject I've read through a lot and discussed it in rl but my take on the wording is just different some agree some don't. And it seem as though once its taken a certain way at there is no way or really reason to try and convince a person other wise. Each may as well be telling the other the sky I purple.
The confusion run through the here and in on others as well. So in essence their must be something wrong with the wording or this tread thread what ever this is wouldn't exist.

[Aranna]

Bullfrogg2000 wrote:

Are materials a require ment?

No they are a cost.

Does that help?

[Bullfrogg2000]

I have players argue that cost = a GP value so if you have loot such as a diamond studded pick axe then that can be used in place of the cost of the item to be created.
If you can substitute items of value then anything can be used because all things have some sort of value.
Players words roughly not my own

[Diego Rossi]

Bullfrogg2000 wrote:

Are materials a require ment?

You can't bypass the cost of making a magic item taking a +5 to the DC, it that is what you mean.

example item:

Gauntlet of Rust
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, rusting grasp; Cost 5,750 gp

the requirements can be bypassed, with the exception of the crafting feat and the spell requirements for some item.
The cost is a different thing and can't be bypassed.

PRRD wrote:

The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

Look the example item above: "Requirements", then a ; then "Cost".

[Bullfrogg2000]

The question is a cost of what? And cost is in the same shaded box at least in my book.
Now caster lvl is in a different slot how does that add in ?
Again I'm not being sarcastic these are serious questions going around the table

[Bullfrogg2000]

A ; ....... That's a fantastic point unfortunately others see having the item to be enchanted as a requirement ; not under the posted requirements and there for not needed. So a ; isn't going to deter their interpretation at all.
Though again punctuation is a valid point and I'd have never picked up on it myself. However it will take more than a ; to convince the others of that point.

[Aranna]

Bullfrogg2000 wrote:

I have players argue that cost = a GP value so if you have loot such as a diamond studded pick axe then that can be used in place of the cost of the item to be created.

If you can substitute items of value then anything can be used because all things have some sort of value.
Players words roughly not my own

They are forgetting the step of buying the parts to be assembled I to the item. Sure you could sell the axe for the supplies to build the item you want, but the axe can't be used directly.

[Bullfrogg2000]

Aranna wrote:

Bullfrogg2000 wrote:

I have players argue that cost = a GP value so if you have loot such as a diamond studded pick axe then that can be used in place of the cost of the item to be created.

If you can substitute items of value then anything can be used because all things have some sort of value.
Players words roughly not my own

They are forgetting the step of buying the parts to be assembled I to the item. Sure you could sell the axe for the supplies to build the item you want, but the axe can't be used directly.

What they are arguing is that is materials are a requirement it can be bypassed. I agree with you but the understanding that more than just GP value and time is all that is needed is the argument faced with.

[Diego Rossi]

Caster level is not a requirement at all, it is in the description part of the item, together with its aura, slot used and market price. It is a indication of the general CL of that kind of item, but it is not mandatory at all. If you wish you can make an item with a CL higher or lower than normal (but see below).

Some particular item have it in the requirements and when that happen it is a requirement that can be bypassed.

There is a minimum CL for items, and that is the level of the caster needed to cast the highest level spell used in the item creation. That set the minimum difficulty to craft the item too (DC=CL+5). If you wish you can increase that CL, with a identical increase in the DC.
If increasing the CL don't change how the item work (like increasing the CL of a ring of fire resistance, minor, without increasing the protection it give against fire) doing that will not change the production cost or the sale price. If increasing the CL of the item increase its power (like making Boots of Speed with a CL of 11 and 11 rounds of use each day), you should increase the price proportionally (following the guidelines in the magi item creation section of the game).

- * -

Requirements (bolded) text ; Cost(bolded) text
seem a fairly clera way to separate Requirements from production Cost.

[Diego Rossi]

Bullfrogg2000 wrote:

A ; ....... That's a fantastic point unfortunately others see having the item to be enchanted as a requirement ; not under the posted requirements and there for not needed. So a ; isn't going to deter their interpretation at all.

Though again punctuation is a valid point and I'd have never picked up on it myself. However it will take more than a ; to convince the others of that point.

Bullfrogg2000 wrote:

What they are arguing is that is materials are a requirement it can be bypassed. I agree with you but the understanding that more than just GP value and time is all that is needed is the argument faced with.

PRD wrote:

Creating Magic Weapons

To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic weapon—half the base price of the item based upon the item's total effective bonus.

PRD wrote:

Creating Rings

To create a magic ring, a character needs a heat source. [b]He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a ring or the pieces of the ring to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the ring.

Same text with minimal differences for each item. and that is not in the requirements section, so it can't be bypassed.

Not that it would help is people is intentionally playing obtuse.

[Bullfrogg2000]

I question that myself. On the caster lvl area in relation it is mentioned that you are the cater of the item. This could indicate that you would need to have the appropriate caster lvl your self much like you would need to meet the caster lvl of a spell.
Caster lvl has multiple affects on the item creation but none say that it loses the initial definition for CL. If it represents the power lvl of the item ( for dispel affect) how would a CL 3 wiz put CL 17 power behind their item with out being at that lvl them selves?
It doesn't seem to sinc up with any of the other understandings of CL in the other sections of the book

[Bullfrogg2000]

As for obtuse many yes and maybe no but what I can't convey is the actually argument that they make. If you heard it from them you may say "yeah a sword out of hey why not"
But the concept is just wrong to me.

[Avh]

@Bullfrogg2000 : CL is not a prerequisite in general.

Exceptions are :
- Potions, scrolls and wands : the CL must be higher than the one from the wand. You can't bypass this prerequisite.
- Some items (weapons, armor, 2 or 3 wondrous items) : you can bypass this prerequisite with +5 DC.

[Bullfrogg2000]

So if caster level doesn't mean caster level why not just call it DC instead. DC to creat DC to dispel?

[Bullfrogg2000]

Maybe this can explain my confusion. You can't cast fireball at a higher lvl than your caster lvl but at lvl three you can create a necklace of fire ball VII that can create a 10d6 fireball amount others. And at just 4,3?? GP value.
At lvl 3 that would be possible to do moneys wise if a few people chipped in depending on the amount of people at the table and IMHO opinion would cause game play imbalance at that lvl.
The CL of the item is ten and at level ten you can cast the 10d6 fire ball. That seems like more than a coincidence doesn't it?

[Avh]

I wasn't the one that wrote the rules...

I didn't even say I approved those, only that it is the way it works at the moment.
The rules for Magic Item crafting were better in 3.5 IMHO, but as we are in the rules forum, I quoted official pathfinder rules.

[Heimdall666]

Just to add a final twist to this twisted thread. The crafting PC has also inferred from the rules that an items cost in gold pieces can directly be derived from the sacrifice of a commensurate value of real goods. His example was using a ship we had "acquired" and was technically his property that had a value of X000 gold. His intent was to "use" the ship to make a much more convenient "Folding Boat" as raw materials and because it has a book gold piece value, that covers the costs, even at a loss to the crafting PC. The GM brought up the fact that if that were true, then landowners could create craters of sacrificed land, tearing up the real estate to make magic items. That's kinda cool in a wierd sort of way, actually.
Oh, that game ended, so now we dont have to deal with it any longer.