Bullfrogg2000's page

Maybe this can explain my confusion. You can't cast fireball at a higher lvl than your caster lvl but at lvl three you can create a necklace of fire ball VII that can create a 10d6 fireball amount others. And at just 4,3?? GP value.
At lvl 3 that would be possible to do moneys wise if a few people chipped in depending on the amount of people at the table and IMHO opinion would cause game play imbalance at that lvl.
The CL of the item is ten and at level ten you can cast the 10d6 fire ball. That seems like more than a coincidence doesn't it?

So if caster level doesn't mean caster level why not just call it DC instead. DC to creat DC to dispel?

As for obtuse many yes and maybe no but what I can't convey is the actually argument that they make. If you heard it from them you may say "yeah a sword out of hey why not"
But the concept is just wrong to me.

I question that myself. On the caster lvl area in relation it is mentioned that you are the cater of the item. This could indicate that you would need to have the appropriate caster lvl your self much like you would need to meet the caster lvl of a spell.
Caster lvl has multiple affects on the item creation but none say that it loses the initial definition for CL. If it represents the power lvl of the item ( for dispel affect) how would a CL 3 wiz put CL 17 power behind their item with out being at that lvl them selves?
It doesn't seem to sinc up with any of the other understandings of CL in the other sections of the book

Bullfrogg2000 wrote:

I have players argue that cost = a GP value so if you have loot such as a diamond studded pick axe then that can be used in place of the cost of the item to be created.

If you can substitute items of value then anything can be used because all things have some sort of value.
Players words roughly not my own

They are forgetting the step of buying the parts to be assembled I to the item. Sure you could sell the axe for the supplies to build the item you want, but the axe can't be used directly.

What they are arguing is that is materials are a requirement it can be bypassed. I agree with you but the understanding that more than just GP value and time is all that is needed is the argument faced with.

A ; ....... That's a fantastic point unfortunately others see having the item to be enchanted as a requirement ; not under the posted requirements and there for not needed. So a ; isn't going to deter their interpretation at all.
Though again punctuation is a valid point and I'd have never picked up on it myself. However it will take more than a ; to convince the others of that point.

The question is a cost of what? And cost is in the same shaded box at least in my book.
Now caster lvl is in a different slot how does that add in ?
Again I'm not being sarcastic these are serious questions going around the table

I have players argue that cost = a GP value so if you have loot such as a diamond studded pick axe then that can be used in place of the cost of the item to be created.
If you can substitute items of value then anything can be used because all things have some sort of value.
Players words roughly not my own

Are materials a requirement ? If so then then why not take a +5. That is what is being said. Caster lvl if you don't meet it take a +5 if you even consider taking it ( a lot of people don't )
If a GP value and time is all you need then yes you could spin straw into gold +5 for not having the spell but true none the less.
I read things the other way I don't really agree with the +5 interpretation others don't as well not just me and all I was saying is that no one has to be wrong just play it the way you read it and if some one at the table doesn't agree then when they run they cap lay it their way.
I don't think I'm lost on the subject I've read through a lot and discussed it in rl but my take on the wording is just different some agree some don't. And it seem as though once its taken a certain way at there is no way or really reason to try and convince a person other wise. Each may as well be telling the other the sky I purple.
The confusion run through the here and in on others as well. So in essence their must be something wrong with the wording or this tread thread what ever this is wouldn't exist.

After thinking for a bit I've come,to the conclusion that this is a poorly written section of the book. Both sides are laid out and the best thing would be for the GM to clarify the rule for his world and or for the table to vote on a house rule. Wether every one agrees or not the ruling should be respected and if any one feels the need to go crazy about it its on them. The goal is to have a good time for every one GM included. Some times you have to agree to disagree and go with the person running the game wether they are right or not. It's not easy to be the GM so cut the guy some slack and a little respect and if its not house ruled change it when you run. :-)

So just time and cash? Well they craft on the rod though it does take a little longer. And if you lay the hurt on the party they will have plenty of down time. Then really they just need cash.
I know that crafting should be acceptably easy but I don't think that it should be possible that a third lvl player be able to make such powerful items. To take it down a notch even if you regulate the cash flow a crafting player will have twice the access to magic items that every one else has because the crafters only paying half price.
And the though that a warrior would be able to make a magic item as easy as a caster well that's a little far fetched. If they out source the magic and raise the DC that's cool but they have no mojo of their own.
If you go by no requirement s needed and a magic item only really requires a GP value then any plot of dirt would do. Land in game should have value though not much but by that rule you can magically suck up a crater in the land scape and creat you luck blade. And maybe in the process find a few diamonds.

Adding a +5 for everyday that the spell isn't present is actually a fantastic take on the rule.
I personally hunk all of the requirements must be met by the creator or an out side source(including being at the right CL) But where the player insists that nothing is required to creat an item then the above def applies.

Forseti in the description of the wounderous item ring ECG. The spell needs to be prepared for each day of the crafting. Through out the day the spell is triggered automaticly. Causing the created to loose access to the spell for the day.
So I would say that yes the spell is cast in the creation and its cast every day of the creation.

My personal opinion would be to remove the paragraphs containing the DC calls and rules for magic item creation. By doing that you simplify the creation procces as it will clearly be spelled out in the wounderous or ring creation sections.
And it will tackle the biggest issue I see with the DC which is the meta game. I'm sure there are some DMs much better than I at micro managing and can make all of the rolls that should be made secretly. ( it does add to the game play to be able to do so) But I usually like to let the players handle such things. If a door isn't unlocked they know it but I do find it hard to believe that they would use a magic item knowing that they failed in the curse range.
Though cool that a player could make a cursed item I would definitely see it getting a little meta gamey in such a situation. I'd much prefer to randomly through the cursed item in the game secretly my self to shake things up a little as the dm. You know giving them a little side quest to break up the action or just a comic relief.
I also believe the best way to adjust a rule is to try and make as simple as possible. That way you can eliminate and confusion that already exists without adding anything to it your self

Hello I'm not sure if Ito late to weigh in on this but is it being said that you do not NEED the item to be crafted, spells used, or the casterer lvl? All you need is gold and time? Isn't that a little bit like divine creation something out of nothing ( except gold that is)
If money and time are the only reins for this then by controlling the flow of magicked items aren't you penalizing the non crafting players? If you give the crafter limmited wealth then that can only make items for them selves or a limmited few and rose few will be reliant almost Sony on the crafter.
And as for the caster lvl I see a lot of people say its only to set the DC. Now it does say it is used for that purpose but not solely. The CL affects other aspects of the item as well as being THE CASTER LEVEL for creation. A spell casters class is their caster lvl. A item as far as I've read can't be made lower than its minimum caster lvl or at a lvl higher than the spell casters caster level. So a lvl 3 wiz doesn't have lv 5 mojo and thus can't imbue more power than they have into a item.
Also If the CL was only to set the DC it would be just that the DC and a +5 would not need to be added to it to get the DC it may have multiple jobs but it doesn't lose it's base definition of a caster level. ( in the book magic section)
As for the + 5 DC I have found two area that say you must have the requirements and only the one DC section that people contest the requirements. The way I read the txt is that if you have a secondary sorce such as a spell or a friend helping you meet the requirement then you add 5 for each thing that they provide.
I believe this because of two thing. In the wounderous items creatio it say that you prepare the spells an they AUTOMATICLY go off each day of the crafting process which would say to me that casting the spell you self is easier than having a friend cast it hence the + DC.
Also with each day burning the spell slot you would need to roll your spell craft every day to emulate the spell but the creation rules say you need only make one roll at the end.
It seems to me that most of the confusion of crafting comes from the DC wording. And I think it is just that the DC not the rule on requirements and materials needed which are stated again in multiple places.
I have played a crafter class meeting the material and CL components and spell requirements and it works fine I though. You just can't make ever thing with little to no failure at lvl three. You mean I have to wait to lvl 15 to make a mulet of planes(which a crafter lvl three spell craft 7 with MW tool +2 has a 25% chance of making or a 100% of making with hero points if you you the plus five. Not allowing that without some one who can cast plane shift doesn't seem unfair to me bu if I'm wrong please let me know and I'd appreciate if it was backed up with something else than the one line in the DC description.