I would say Shadow Demons as well. I'd hate to be the 4th or 5th level party that has to deal with Magic Jar >.>
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Here's the Link to a thread a did a bit ago about this subject.
Pugwampi not so much because they are so powerful on their own but that their unluck works just as well on a level 20 party as a level one party. So a save or suck monster combined with Pugwampi means you suck. Get's even worse if someone turns them invisible so they can just stand by you not doing anything but being their.
Elementals, especially water and earth. (That's if you factor in power attack which many GMs do not). Air can be a pain too.
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Done before I'm sure, but anyway.
IMO1. Shadow demon
2. (tie) Ghoul, Phase spider
3. (tie) Gibbering mouther, wispActually, most demons probably belong on the list.
Kobold.
the best part of that thread is the person who yelled at you for not having the ideal oil or potion to deal with a given encounter.
"Oil of shadow slaying, cast down to level 1, only costs 50 gold! What kind of adventurer are you???"
Most L1-3 adventures don't even take place in a situation where the nearby resources would be available for much beyond a few cure light potions. Plus, there's the assumption that the dumb barbarian would even know he needs a potion of resist energy before fighting a wisp.
Do you mean this post? Probably not since there's no yelling involved in said post. Just curious though.
not counting the young advanced ghost sorcerer or other template cheese
here are a few monsters you can add to the list
1. Most Outsiders
2. Most Dragons
3. Most Fey
4. Most Intelligent Undead
5. Most Abberrations
6. Damned Clockwork Soldiers
the first 5, are overpowered due to their wonky and overpowering use of spells and supernatural abilities, and the first 2, because they are combat monsters at the same time.
the clockwork solider, if given a reach weapon, not only has a high attack bonus, but ridiculous damage per swing. imagine what happens when you give them the giant template with a reach weapon. 20 foot threat zone. if you can find a means to make them intelligent with combat reflexes and power attack. they grow even nastier.
Full agreement on point #6, less so on the others. Clockwork Soldier's are brutal. Absolutely ridiculous as brutes for their level. You can get around them other ways, but if forced into a slugging match it usually ends badly. We had it happen when my high level (14th) party was stripped of our gear and forced to fight against them (and a couple of stone golems) with a 11th level wizard for support. After we expended all of our high end magics in a fight with a CR 18 Astral Dreadnought of course.
Shadows are really nasty in general, but the bigger problem with them (and other incorporeal touch enemies that inflict level or ability damage / drain) is that they remain a threat even to fairly high level characters. A pack of shadows can kill a higher level character without much trouble - as my GM learned when he let a party member summon 2d6.
Demilichs aren't so much bad for their level as much as I think they are kind of a poorly designed creature on the whole - under the right circumstances it's a TPK, otherwise no contest at all.
Will o' Wisps are incredibly frustrating enemies more than they are dangerous - and given they are dangerous enough it speaks to how frustrating they are.
My go-to monster for these kinds of threads is the 3.0 Monster Manual II Adamantine Horror. At only CR 9, it has disintegrate, implosion, and mage's disjunction as at-will SLAs :)
If you're only interested in PF-specific monsters, I can't really think of any particularly under-CR'ed ones.
My go-to monster for these kinds of threads is the 3.0 Monster Manual II Adamantine Horror. At only CR 9, it has disintegrate, implosion, and mage's disjunction as at-will SLAs :)
If you're only interested in PF-specific monsters, I can't really think of any particularly under-CR'ed ones.
Oh god those things were horrible. XD
Pugwampi not so much because they are so powerful on their own but that their unluck works just as well on a level 20 party as a level one party. So a save or suck monster combined with Pugwampi means you suck. Get's even worse if someone turns them invisible so they can just stand by you not doing anything but being their.
Pugwampis to slow the party down, with ranged spell and arrow support.
PF gets CR wrong again and again. I find I am always adding 1-2.
the nymph and the succubus are pretty overpowered for their CR. and both of them, are likely to enslave any males they defeat.
Succubus has negative levels and Domination effects, as well as at will suggestion, the Nymph has a blinding aura that forces a difficult will save every round, an at will stun with a similarly difficult save, and full druid casting, which allows for some Pretty Hentai type stuff with their decent DCs and their 4th level and lower spells.
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I've looked at a fair few monsters in APs, mainly the nastier non-boss encounters and really been confused at the listed CR. At high levels, start adding 3 or so to the CR for some monsters. Agreement on the succubi and especially dragons. Lot of attacks, moderately good attack bonus, pretty decent damage if they hit with multiple attacks, SLAs on top of SR and some other stuff makes them good in melee and casting. At times, it feels like the party is being ripped off on xp especially when they barely won and the dm hands out 200 experience.
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Humans always give my party a lot of trouble.
Humans always give my party a lot of trouble.
depending on the human's armor and general discernable appearance, you could easily evaluate a rough idea of their general role and counter right there. except in truly subversive cases.
easier to do with the seemingly less predictable humans than with an outsider. due to being defined by their class.
as an example
character in normal clothes who hides in the middle of the party. clearly some kind of arcane full caster.
I find that shadows and shadow demons are the two that I feel bleed into the upper edge of their CRs. It's rare that I throw multiples of them at a low-level party.
I actually feel most incorporeal creatures are at the edge of being too high for their CR. Though they tend to A) have lower HP to make up for it and B) have a weakness to sunlight. Of them, the Shadow Demon is a Rough Beast. DR 10 and Incorporeal? Hot damn. That said, their AC and Hp is of someone at CR 5, so they can die quickly if you can bypass the DR. And it's not hard to have a cold iron weapon.
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The only major CR ooopsies I've ever encountered in PF are the Clockwork Soldier and Seugathi. Compared to 3.5 where the very first MM had CRs all over the place and often with little connection to the actual challenge posed by the monster, it's a major step forward.
The only major CR ooopsies I've ever encountered in PF are the Clockwork Soldier and Seugathi. Compared to 3.5 where the very first MM had CRs all over the place and often with little connection to the actual challenge posed by the monster, it's a major step forward.
I can't say much on the Clockwork Soldier, because the one time we fought them, one of them one shot our Gunslinger with a max damage critical on a halberd. It was... saddening, but a fluke.
The only major CR ooopsies I've ever encountered in PF are the Clockwork Soldier and Seugathi. Compared to 3.5 where the very first MM had CRs all over the place and often with little connection to the actual challenge posed by the monster, it's a major step forward.
And the Sandpoint devil, and the Foo Lion...
Actually, having run a Foo Lion, I didn't think it was that bad. But, with applying templates, you still have to look at the current stats and see how they mesh. For example, I found that the Zombie Vulture was really one CR higher than it would normally have been. That's just the nature of applying templates, especially more complex ones.
PF gets CR wrong again and again. I find I am always adding 1-2.If your parties are optimized for 60 rounds of combat made up of hitting monsters with silver spoons while reciting Shakespeare, maybe :)
Lol. Just had an image of raging barbs swinging silver spoons and spellcasters summoning nothing but silver spoons against their opponents.
Demilich
From a guy who had stopped into one of our games to guest run a (converted) beholder against the party:
What the heck, Kain? I make a great new character, write up all this backstory about his hopes and ambitions, and the FIRST combat is against a whole bunch of powerful spellcasters and warriors? Really now?
Humanoid monsters are grossly overpowered. I hope this session proves this beyond all reasonable doubt.
PF gets CR wrong again and again. I find I am always adding 1-2.
Well as a counterpoint on the scale, I pretty much never adding to the CR and it works great for my group. I wonder what we are doing different. :o
PF gets CR wrong again and again. I find I am always adding 1-2.Well as a counterpoint on the scale, I pretty much never adding to the CR and it works great for my group. I wonder what we are doing different. :o
IIRC he has certain house rules. I would look at those.
IIRC he has certain house rules. I would look at those.PF gets CR wrong again and again. I find I am always adding 1-2.Well as a counterpoint on the scale, I pretty much never adding to the CR and it works great for my group. I wonder what we are doing different. :o
And the pure PF games I've been in without modification, have had monsters with clearly incorrect Challenge Ratings. We don't run the powergaming chronicles, but some CRs just don't work with the level of the party, when apparently they should.
That is all fine and dandy, adjustments can be made; but when paizo keeps stacking on the crunch (more DR, more SR, more above 20+ ability scores, awww yeaaah!) there comes an awful point where the monsters don't have an exploitable weakness, they soak or SR shut down a lot, and then when you finally get to victory, you find the foe had a lowish CR. It is not a situation that impresses.
To an example I mentioned above, I look at the Sandpoint devil, apparently a CR 8 monster:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/sandpoint-devil
What I see, is a CR 10.
No weak saves, good ac, nice hp, cold iron dr, +12 bab, spells, including some nasty ones and a few that don't run out, a cursing 10d6 fire breath weapon, a panic causing bay, fantastic CMD, and it is immune to fear and fire.
So it is a fighter, with a bab four above a level 8 fighter.
It is a flying spellcaster in addition to this, with some extra special abilities thrown in. This is meant to be a Cr 8?
What the hell paizo? Why give so much to a CR 8 and no weaknesses. Why so cheap on the xp (should they actually manage to take this at level 7-9)?
There's a 'nightmare template' enemy in a PFS Scenario that has an AC above 20, DR 5/silver, and Fast Healing 5, as well as a constant Fear aura...
She's listed as CR2.
Bwahahahahahahahahaha!
Phrenic Scourge CR 8 (3PP): AoE Daze for 3d4 rounds on a 2 round cooldown, with a moderately high save to it, and each of it's melee attacks have a Save or Die tied to it with a low-mid fort save. The only thing they don't have is health, which is a meager 44.
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What the hell paizo? Why give so much to a CR 8 and no weaknesses. Why so cheap on the xp (should they actually manage to take this at level 7-9)?
Yawn. Compare that to Nabasu, which is also a CR 8 outsider. Stats are roughly the same, Nabasu gets summons and better DR/resists in exchange for 10 hp less and slightly worse attack array. Or to Erinyes, also outsider, also CR 8, brutal flying archery of doom.
It's not that Paizo under-CR's their monster, it's you playing a padded walls game of unoptimized PCs, which you have demonstrated over and over again. The CR system must fall somewhere in the middle between your PCs and the ones played by Ashiel or Streamofthesky.
The worm that walks template can be pretty ridiculous on a low-level spellcaster.
Pretty sure a worm that walks human adept 1 manages to be a CR 1 monster with DR 15/-- and fast healing.
...Of course one AoE blast spell practically disintegrates it, but they're MUCH more deadly to the unprepared party than the average threat is going to be.
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Sea Hag...
Seriously 1D6 str damage on sight in 60 feet for a CR 4 is insane!
Put a group of 4 and watch the carnage as half the PC get to 0 strength
Not to forget the gaze attack that can put you in coma for 3 days, of course.
Sea Hag...
Seriously 1D6 str damage on sight in 60 feet for a CR 4 is insane!Put a group of 4 and watch the carnage as half the PC get to 0 strength
Not to forget the gaze attack that can put you in coma for 3 days, of course.
Mmm...I dunno. It's DC 14. Even with a +0, you've got about a 35% chance to save. Four of them would be CR 8. It seems like the chance of everyone in the party repeatedly failing would be very slim. (o.o)
My go-to monster for these kinds of threads is the 3.0 Monster Manual II Adamantine Horror. At only CR 9, it has disintegrate, implosion, and mage's disjunction as at-will SLAs :)
If you're only interested in PF-specific monsters, I can't really think of any particularly under-CR'ed ones.
They were unique so you shouldn't ever see more than one just like the Tarrasque.
Everyone wont fail sure, but your 10 str caster can go down in 2 failure.
They were unique so you shouldn't ever see more than one just like the Tarrasque.My go-to monster for these kinds of threads is the 3.0 Monster Manual II Adamantine Horror. At only CR 9, it has disintegrate, implosion, and mage's disjunction as at-will SLAs :)
If you're only interested in PF-specific monsters, I can't really think of any particularly under-CR'ed ones.
Sure, but one is more than enough! If you do see one at a time when CR 9 would be appropriate (so from about level 5 to 10), then you will likely die :)
it took us a party of 15 7th level 32 point 3.5 PCs to take on both Xanesha and the Sandpoint devil at different parts of 3.5 original Rise of the Runelords.
Justice Ironbriar and Aldern Foxglove were pretty OP too at 4th level.
may be because we have a stingy DM.
Orcs.
For a CR 1/3, their damage output is insane. And their effective HPs excessive due to ferocity. I'm convinced they SHOULD have had 'orc ferocity' as per the half-orc ability rather than full on ferocity.
Full on Ferocity is no different from the diehard feat. it has all the downsides, yet meets none of the prerequisites.
meaning every round the orc fights at 0 or less health, he is staggered and loses a hit point every round in addition to the damage he would take for fighting while he should be unconscious.
a character with the diehard feat has this issue too.
the orc's imbalanced damage output also comes at the cost of low will saves, lack of skill points, and so on.
the orc would be more balanced if it's racial modifiers were +2 strength +2 constitution -2 charisma than the inclusion of a +4 strength with -2 to all 3 mentals.
meaning every round the orc fights at 0 or less health, he is staggered and loses a hit point every round in addition to the damage he would take for fighting while he should be unconscious.Effective HPs are still too high.
other than the HP boost from effectively getting diehard as a racial ability, i would say that their non-diehard HP is too Low for a "Hulk-Smash" Race. plus at levels 1-3, brute strength solves the majority of problems
a character with the diehard feat has this issue too.And the Diehard feat has a prereq, putting it out of reach for the overwhelming majority of 1 HD, fractional CR foes.
an unnecessary and purely arbitrary feat tax that serves no purpose to play the role of feat tax.
Endurance, almost sucks as bad as Combat Expertise
diehard is a pretty poor feat, essentially you give up self preservation for roughly an extra 2 hit dice worth of HP with the downside that when you lose them, you DO Die.