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Please give me feedback on this basic fighter build.
I am offering this as payback for any advice that I may have given. It's your turn to take potshots at me.
It's also meant as a sort of reply to another thread discussing fighters, where someone claimed that fighters didn't have much to add to the roleplay aspect fo the game, because they had no skills. This guy has great social skills, perfectly suited for a barroom brawl. Not sure if that proves their point or not, but he definitely has "character".
Dwarven Fighter 1st - Lawful Neutral
Stats:
STR 17 (+3)
DEX 14 (+2)
CON 14 (+2)
INT 11 (0)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 9 (-1)
Traits:
Social-Suspicious = +1 Sense Motive
Sczarni-Bad Reputation = +2 Intimidate
Initial Skills:
Bluff = 0 ranks + feat -1 CHA = +3
Craft Armorer = 1 rank + 3 class + 2 race + 0 INT = +6
Intimidate = 1 rank + 3 class + 2 trait -1 CHA = +6
Sense Motive = 0 ranks +1 trait + 0 WIS = +1
Everything else is 0 or negative.
Initial Feat: Stone-faced = +4 Bluff
Bonus Feat: Quickdraw = Draw weapon as free action
Arni Carni is a short. bald, ugly dwarf who hates orcs and goblins and people who are taller or better looking than he is. His temper is short and ugly too.
He doesn't really have a deity, but being Lawful he does believe in following "The Rules", and as a prizefighter (his night job) there is one main set of rules he goes by, The Marquis de Queensbury's Rules.
In his day job, he's an Armorer, not a blacksmith, or a swordsmith, or any other kind of "smith". He makes armor. For his day job, he follows "Guild Rules". If you ask him to sharpen your sword, the edge he puts on it will last as long as the grudge he will hold against you, all the while muttering things about "scabbin'" and
" working outside the Guild", and " 'sganst the rules".
Ask him to shoe your horse and he would say "I need that like I need a kick in the head". He looks like he's been there, done that.
When he's not working, Arni likes to "Drink and drink and drink and fight!". He likes to hit on pretty women with handsome boyfriends so that he can pick a fight and break the guy's pretty little nose. "Bunch of stuck-up sticky beaks."
His favorite weapon is his fists, usually encased in steel gauntlets, or a warhammer. For ranged attacks, which he prefers when a fist fight looks inadvisable, he likes his heavy crossbow, which he always keeps cocked and loaded for a Quickdraw and a snapshot.
Money's tight these days, so he's wearing scale mail, but he would like to upgrade to a breastplate.
DPR = 1d3+4 (fists) to 1d8+4 (hammer)
AC = 17
HP = 12
He seems to be pretty solid in the give and take damage areas, and I spent both of his Skill ranks and one of his Feats to help develop his character. His CHA is dumped because of his character concept, not just to dump the points to add to his otehr stats.
I plan to continue to use his Skill ranks per level to add to his Craft, Bluff, Intimidate, Perception, and Sense Motive skills. Since he doesn't get many skills (2 per level), I need to be very selective, and I have already decided that Handle Animal, Ride, and any non-class skills other than Bluff or Perception are definitely not on his "To Do" list.
So the main thing left is the Feat build sequence, and I am undecided on where to take Arni. For his hand-to-hand fighting style, I need some good bonuses to Unarmed Attack, but i would also like to work on his Archery.
I would like to see suggestion for Feat progressions and maybe basic equipment buys that involve one or more of the following abilities, in order of descending importance:
Improved unarmed fighting - Unarmed fighting style should be more pugilistic, and less ju-jitsu. This is probaly more of a "glove options" equipment build than a Feat build. I don't want this character to be a Monk, so don't even go there. Maybe I should give him a "Mr. Satan Super Punch" Power Attack on his Unarmed Strike?
Heavy armor specialization - What's the best AC to weight ratio? Best AC to cost ratio? Personal preference is for Breastplate or Chainmail. Is there a Feat which reduces DEX penalties for different armor types, especially heavy armor?
Precision archery - The crossbows range increment is good, so eliminate any range enhancing Feats, like Far Shot[/b]. The emphasis is on Precision not speed, so no [i]Many Shot type of options, either.
Assume multi-classing isn't an option "Working outside the Guild"
Since Bonus Feats are all combat oriented, any other Feats should provide some non-combat bonus, like a Saving Throw modifier, or extra hit points like Endurance, Diehard, or Fight On, or should enhance Arni's "social skills", like Enforcer.
Just keep in mind that this is the kind of character who first instinct on meeting a dragon (or anyone else) would be to punch it in the face.
Why did you pick a Bluff bonus for him? Wouldn't the feat that allows Str to be used for Intimidate be more thematic?
Pick up the extra trait feat and get Glory of the Old if you want save bonuses. There was another dwarf racial trait that was also awesome you could get at the same time.
==Aelryinth
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Aelryinth:
Bluff is useful for Feints. Also for roleplaying situations where Intimidation won't work. I'm working against a neg. CHA mod. and I need to compensate this in a variety of social skills. However, Intimidating Prowess is definitely on my wish list. Maybe I should rearrange my priorities.
Can't find "Glory of the Old". Please provide a reference.
Taking Additional Traits Feat might help expand his character a bit. I need to spend more time looking at the Advanced Race Guide, and check out alternate traits and archetypes in more depth. I was just looking at Foehammer, and it seems to fit him pretty well.
Nicos:
INT, WIS, and CHA were all considered "secondary" at best, and while I didn't really want a negative in any of them, the character definitely needed to by sort of ugly (like an old prize fighter), but I didn't want him to be so ugly that he would have lots of problems dealing with people.
I have no problem with dumping his CHA to 8, but I don't know whether to put the 2 points into INT for more Skills, or into WIS for a better Perceptipon bonus. The fact that he has a definite Craft component to his back story, I am leaning towards INT for the Skills, but I can also make a good case for the WIS.
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If u want RP for the character play a sober hairless dwarf. What ever u do is justified because of the abomination u would be.Arni says. in his deep raspy voice
"Who you calling hairless? If you had a face, I'd punch yer lights out."
After being punched in the face i use my slumber hex to put u to sleep. In ur uncontentious state i do unthinkable things to u. when u awake u discover u were robbed of ur beard. MWAHAHAHAHA
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I wouldn't have thought of using Cleave for an Unarmed Attack. Somehow it just doesn't sound right.
I'm thinking that Improved Unarmed Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting (so I can use both fists) should happen fairly early on, and then switch to the cross-bow related Feats for a couple of levels.
Still have to research the Foehammer Archetype to see what good things I can get out of that.
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I wouldn't have thought of using Cleave for an Unarmed Attack. Somehow it just doesn't sound right.
I'm thinking that Improved Unarmed Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting (so I can use both fists) should happen fairly early on, and then switch to the cross-bow related Feats for a couple of levels.
Still have to research the Foehammer Archetype to see what good things I can get out of that.
Dont cleave with ur fist its stupid. Use whirlwind attack. lol
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Look Mr. Psycho,
Since you put my character to sleep and cut off his beard without any visible ability to do so, then perhaps you should quit talking to my snoring hulk and go find someone else to molest. Arni only growled at you to show you a sample of his typical social interaction, and I made sure that you understood that this was not an attack on you personally.
If you're giving me advice on my character build, then you're calling me stupid, not my character, and I will start flagging your posts if you don't be a bit more polite.
I said that Cleave didn't sound right to me. However, your suggestion is a bit much to ask for. It's a 5 Feat build sequence to get there after I take Improved Unarmed Attack. I might be able to do that some time around 5th level, and then only if I neglect almost everything else that I might want to use a Feat for. Not to mention that somewhere in the process I have to bump my INT to 13.
So perhaps if you had advised me to bump my INT to 13 and take the sequence
Improved Unarmed Attack
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
I might have thanked you for the advice instead of taking offense over a "stupid remark". And then I would say, "But that's not quite what I had in mind."
Arni says, "Are you a good witch, or a bad witch?", just before he nods off, muttering something about "poppies, poppies, poppies...".
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1. if there is a choice between WIS & INT, pick WIS. It's not just for the perception bonus, it is the saving throw bonus which is needed.
2. if you are planing on going fist style, the improved unarmed strike feat is essential, otherwise with gauntlets you provoke AoOs when you attack.
3. featwise I'd look at the power attack, cleave, great cleave to start with - most low level fights are against a number of foes and as a fighter you can trade them out later if the single big foe becomes common. Great cleave and lunge is the fighter AOE. Not impressed with the dwarf racial cleave feats, maybe cleave through but that's it.
1. Pretty much what I was already thinking, and it might come in handy if I wanted to go for a Improved Unarmed attack, Stunning Fist combo, but the last wouldn't become available until level 8, and then only if I used one of my ability score bumps to go to WIS 13.
2. That one is easy to avoid by buying "spiked gauntlets", the use of which count as "armed attacks" and are not subject to AoOs.3. The whole Cleave route just doesn't sound right for a fisticuff fighting move. How many non-Monk Feats use Combat Reflexes as a pre-req.? Stand Still, Bodyguard, and Combat Patrol are the only ones I can find, but they all look like they could enhance the hand-to-hand fighting and improve it's ability to work against groups of mooks.
By the way, I have looked at the Foehammer archetype, as well as a few other Dwarf and Fighter archetypes and traits, and don't like most of them for the simple fact that all of the ones that seem to fit the fisticuff fighting style take away either your Armor Proficiencies or the 3rd level Armor Training, and as an armorer by trade, Arni just wouldn't make the kind of choice.
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So, in the end I decided that Arni needed to be a two-fisted fighter, and to concentrate on his primary weapons.
So I pished the "extra" stat points into DEX, so that he coudl get TWF, and ran with a TWF thread.
So he ends up
STR 17
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 8
Traits:
Sczarni - Bad Reputation - +1 Intimidate
Fighter - Armor Expert - +1 to Armor Penalty check
Feats & Fighter Abilties:
1st Lvl
Improved Unarmed Strike (to avoid any AoO)
Two-weapon Fighting (to use both fists)
2nd Lvl
Enforcer (gets free action to Intimidate opponent, if shaken, opponent is -2 AC and -2 ATK. If hit is confirmed critical, then opponent flees)
Bravery +1 (+1 to Fear saves)
3rd Lvl
Double Slice (add STR DAM mod to off-hand)
Armor Training (Another +1 to Armor Penalty check)
4th Lvl
Two-weapon Defense (+1 Shield bonus to AC)
5th Lvl
Weapon Training - Close (+1 ATK & +1 DAM for Close weapons)
Weapon Focus - Close (+1 ATK for Close weapons)
6th Lvl
Bravery +2 (Total +2 to Fear saves)
Weapon Specialization - Close (+2 DAM to Close weapons)
By 5th level I should be getting 2 attacks at +9 to hit doing 1d4+4 damage each, and I should have AC 14 before adding the heavy armor that Arni seems to prefer. Should be able to get AC 20 by 5th level.
By level 6 it will be 3 attacks, 2 at +10 and 1 at +4, each with 1d4+6 damage. If I get 2 hits out of 3, and average damage rolls, my DPR should be about 16. If I make the Enforcer Intimidation roll, then the 2nd and third hit will be at +12 & +6 respectively. Max. possible DAM = 3d4 + 18 = 30 HP.
Lots of HP, good AC, pretty fair DPR for the weapons used.
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The whirlwind attack was a joke, note the part with "lol." Whirlwind attack is fun but to taxing and because of that all the feats u wanted to take on ur list would be pushed to further levels or removed from the build entirely. Though admittedly seeing some1 whirlwind with there fist would be funny. Also witch is evil, i always role evil when given the chance.
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The whirlwind attack was a joke, note the part with "lol." Whirlwind attack is fun but to taxing and because of that all the feats u wanted to take on ur list would be pushed to further levels or removed from the build entirely. Though admittedly seeing some1 whirlwind with there fist would be funny. Also witch is evil, i always role evil when given the chance.
I went back and re-read your comment after my rant, and realized you meant "cleave with your fists is stupid", and I agree.
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I don't think you can two weapon fight with unarmed strike, I think recently it was FAQ that unarmed strike is counted as 1 weapon. this was done to monks could use magic fang and ect with out needing mutiable casting of the spell per body part. It also prevents 5 weapon fighting by people saying, well I am going to headbutt, and kick with both legs and punch with both arms. Unarmed strike is just as it sounds a unarmed strike it up to you to discrbe it in your head or dm what part of the body is acutally used.you can two weapon fight with spike guantlets as each one is consided seprate weapon, and must be enchanted seprately.
you may want to take catch off guard and improvised weapon mastery for bar room brawler type of guy. can just beat some one down with a bar stool or something to that effect. Enforcer feat let you...
I looked for a FAQ on this, and there are 779 pages of FAQs on Two-weapon Fighting. Of the ones that I read that LOOKED like they had somethigng to do with Unarmed Attacks, none of them had anybody "official" posting answers. You need to be more specific.
At this point, I think that the whole concept of FAQ rulings is pretty much broken. Maybe there's a short-cut to "official" FAQs hat I'm not finding. A lot of guys arguing about something doesn't make a rule change.
I saw lots of misunderstanding about this Feat, as well as a lot of comments from people who forgot that the main mechanic of this is in the Combat section. Also, a lot of argument about when an Unarmed Attack isn't Unarmed: which is specifically
1) When you're wearing guantlets, the DAM can be lethal or non-lethal, however you are still not considered "Armed" for the purposes of AoOs.
2) When you're wearing spiked guantlets, you aren't subject to AoOs, and the DAM should be lethal or should be reduced to same as a normal gauntlet if non-lethal, but if you are trying to specifically NOT hit with the spikes, then you should take the normal -4 penalty for trying to do non-lethal damage with a lethal weapon.
3) When you have the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat, then "You are considered to be armed even when unarmed". You're still making Unarmed strikes. Regardless of how many attacks you make per round, either either by you BAB for you current class and level, or because you are Two-weapon fighting, and taking a full round action to use both "weapons" attacks.
4) Two-weapon Fighting is allowed by the Combat rules, even if you don't have the Two-weapon Fighting Feat. The penalties are pretty severe. The Feat just negates most of the penalties.
Right now, I seem to be favoring Two-weapon Fighting in most of my recent character builds. This seems to be more because the character concept required it than by concious choice: A juggling rogue, a two-fisted fighter, and a cheerleader with a pom pom attack routine. I have found that the Two-handed fighting style doubles your chance of scoring a critical hit, and can give character types with low DAM potential on a single attack a useful addition to their DPR.
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if you go with those skill focus and persuasive is good to increase the skill, nets a +10 total at level 10 provided you raise the skill one rank every level. There is another feat that lets you use str mod on place of cha when using intimidate, so you don't have to worry about cha.check out unarmed fighter archtype or Brawler in ultimate combat.
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you may want to take catch off guard and improvised weapon mastery for bar room brawler type of guy. can just beat some one down with a bar stool or something to that effect. Enforcer feat let you...
Inimidating Prowess is the Feat that lets you use STR instead of CHA for Intimidate. But since I already have Weapon Focus, I think that Dazzling Display might give me a better effect, but I haven't decided, and probably won't make the final decision until Arni hits Level 7. If he lives that long, running around battlefields with no weapons but his hands.
Also, Arni is not about killing as much as he is about fighting "by the Rules" (Marquis de Queensbury), so if you're down, and you stay down (count of 10), you get to live.
I checked out the unarmed fighter and Brawler archetypes, but didn't like the fact that they ditch Armor training to get their "special" abilties. Arni is definitely about the Armor. He might not want to kill, but he doesn't want to die either. He expects to go mano-a-mano with a giant, and survive long enough to knock the giant out.
In regards to improvised weapons. Arni has his fists, why does he need a barstool? At least that's the way Arni would look at it.
BTW, I am thinking of re-skinning the Double Slice Feat by having Arni call it his "One-Two Punch". Sounds more pugilistic.
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As my final post on this thread,
I think that I can develop a character with a double Shield Bash attack, since, per the approved Equipments list in the Core Rulebook a shield is consider a Martial Weapon. So I could carry 2 shields, and no other melee weapon, and do a Shield Bash with each shield as a Two-Weapon Attack, and get the AC bonus from each shield as well. With the Two-weapon Fighting Feat, I get to reduce and equalize the penalty for using two-weapons. You get the same result even if you try to rule that a shield has to be carried in your "off-hand", I just have 2 off-hands, and the penalty is the same for both "on-hand" nad "off-hand", as long as the weapons are the same weight class, when you have TWF feat. Add Improved Shield Bash as a second Feat, and I get to keep my AC when using Shield Bash.
Downsides: Shields don't do much DAM, they tend to be heavy, and you have to take an additional Armor Penalty. Also the DEX 15 required for the TWF Feat eats up build points that I might want to put elsewhere.
If you're interested in how this works out, I'll start a new thread on that.
I'll check back on this thread the next few days to see if there are any additional comments or interest in the "Shield Bearer" concept.