Your silicon is in my peanut butter!


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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While I'm here posting... Just a bit of a venting. Androids? Robots? RUINS OF SPACESHIPS? Gah. I'm really feeling that Paizo's spreading themselves too far to please everyone. Gunslingers, alchemists, clockworks. Okay, fine. Throw in a healthy amount of Cthulhu mythos. Alright, though iffy on the whole Elder God warping Zon-Kuthon. But now we're throwing sci-fi into fantasy?

It's my opinion (and that's the key word, so don't get your synthfiber panties in wads), but some genres just do -not- merge well. And honestly, if I want to play sci-fi, I'll play Shadowrun. I play Pathfinder for fantasy. YES, I know; I can just avoid running/playing in that area of Golarion, or change things as I see fit as a GM. That's not the point.

The point is, beyond my personal preferences, I'm seeing a lot of random stuff being added into Golarion; and I'm sorry, it comes across as pandering to get more audiences. What's next, Doctor Who as a Venture-Captain?


most of your things are not really things that are actually happening

but the best part about all your things that you are talking about is that they do not actually have to be things in other people's games unless they choose for them to be things in their games


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My hovercraft is full of eels.


I was hoping you had tips for making silicon molds.

Wrong section, I guess.

Liberty's Edge

You can chose to ignore some things you don't like on Golarion, like guns or androids. The existence of a crashed spaceship in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks did not ruin the World of Greyhawk setting. It is entirely possible to ignore huge chunks of the world, if they do not fit your vision. (Heck, many people in Europe one thousand years ago had little idea of what was going on over 1000 miles away.)


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What's wrong with "pandering" to appeal to more audiences?

Personally, I see it more as expanding options. Not everyone plays Tolkien World #198321 so it's good to have more options for different styles of games. I like that there's more options for different types of games. It's easier to ignore options that you don't like than to make options you do like. Besides, I'm glad to see other, non-standard fantasy stuff. Sick of everyone trying to do a "medieval European*" style fantasy because they watched Lord of the Rings.

*By that, most people are actually running medieval England style fantasy. Once had someone ban a bogatyr character I made because apparently, Slavic things aren't medieval. >.>


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Draven Torakhan wrote:
What's next, Doctor Who as a Venture-Captain?

I can't think of anyone that would NOT think that would be cool! At least TIME for game sessions would no longer be an issue. ;D


Silicone? don't you mean silicon unless you don't like breast implants:)

But really all you have to do to solve this "problem" is not use them and let the rest of us have fun. I for one can't stand demons and devils but there here and there not going anywhere. Besides sci-fi has been mixed in D&D since the beginning so it isn't anything new. I do think Paizo does it better then most and I am happy to have a world with dragons, androids, fey, spaceships, lovecraft monsters, cryptids, aliens, giants, mythical beast and much, much, more.


You're obviously welcome to vent, but your accusation of pandering is pretty misplaced.

It's closer to the opposite. If the creators of the setting removed things they liked to stop threads like this, that would be pandering.

To take a less controversial example from the same book as the android and the robots, the lashunta are pure pulp. I'm hesitant to include the lashunta in my game because they are so pulp.

But the lashunta aren't in there to pander to pulp fans. They're there because some people in the Paizo office (Erik Mona for sure, but probably others as well) love pulp.

So, I'm not going to accuse Paizo of pandering for doing what they like rather than what I like. Because that's exactly the opposite of what pandering means.

Cheers!
Landon


Lashunta are one of my favorite playable races along with Aassimar, Catfolk, Kitsune, and Androids. I also like Dhampir, Ifrit, Sylph, Tiefling, Oread, Undine, Grippli, Nagaji, Ratfolk, Samsaran, Merfolk, Vanara, Goblin, Monkey Goblin, Ghoran, Syrinx Tengu, and Strix


Different strokes for different folks. But really the OPs remarks aren't get anything more than leave Numeria, Distant Worlds out of your campaign. The only thing I'd add is that the boundaries b/w fantasy and SF used to be a lot less distinct and this was reflected in the early days of D&D (not just Expedition to Barrier but other SF/pulp-ish influences). I always think of that Gray Mouser story where they bump into the German time travelling scientist...

So really the robots and John Carter of Mars stuff isn't anything new, if anything Golarion's inclusion of these themes are harkening to the roots of the hobby. And lets face it the roots of the hobby are still in the imagination of a 12 year old saying wouldn't it be cool if the fighter, elf, wizard and dwarf had to travel through time with the Doctor to rescue a Princess and obtain the plans for a new battle station from the evil empire of kill-bots?


Good points. I will reiterate for the record, though; I did make the point of "Yes, I know I can just leave them out of my game." Just sayin'.


Also, these things have all been in Golarion since Day One. (There may not have been rules for them, but Alkenstar? Numeria? Outer Gods? All part of the setting from the beginning.)


The Pathfinder Campaign Setting has long been a "and the kitchen sink, too" setting. And that makes sense, because it allows them to do a bit of everything for everyone and still keep it to one line of books. As opposed to say, WotC, which had to produce content for five or six campaign settings and inevitably let some of them go to focus on the most popular ones. Their market base was too fragmented.


Plus it gives us more options for home brew worlds to have things like guns, aliens, lovecraft, steampunk, sci-fi, pulp fiction, psychic powers, cryptids, etc.

Sovereign Court

Draven Torakhan wrote:
Good points. I will reiterate for the record, though; I did make the point of "Yes, I know I can just leave them out of my game." Just sayin'.

Sooo ... is this just a generic vent thread then? Because it did have that feeling of "OMG U R playing it wrong!!1!1!!! ... IMO" on the initial read through ...

And if you are not accepting of the "leave them out of your game" solution, then I got nothing for you. The campaign world is what it is. If you don't want to drop those aspects from your home game (or if it is for some reason not a valid solution for you), then the campaign world may not be for you.


"Pandering" is a loaded term with the negative connotation that a company is somehow catering to undesirables that are somehow ruining the "purity" of something you enjoy. People use this all the time with arguments about psionics, Asian setting, and firearms, that somehow just adding these options are ruining the game as a whole and that anyone that could enjoy these options are also ruining the game. Because apparently the only way sky cake tastes good is if up in the sky, the sky cookie and sky pie people can't have their sky pie!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I honestly don't mind it. It's a little iffy, and I'm not even a big fan of sci-fi, but it's there if you want a different flavour of mystery or creepiness. The only thing I actually mind are elves being aliens, but that's not because I think the idea is stupid, but...well, i never liked elves to begin with, so, biased and what-not. My point is, I don't think it's that bad. I like a little bit of the creepy alien vibe. And the way Numeria was designed you can quite literally ignore it if you don't want to go there/address it. So, really, who cares?

Shadow Lodge

Calex wrote:
Draven Torakhan wrote:
What's next, Doctor Who as a Venture-Captain?
I can't think of anyone that would NOT think that would be cool! At least TIME for game sessions would no longer be an issue. ;D

Clearly you have never watched Doctor Who, as the Doctor is ALWAYS running.


Why does this thread seem familiar...

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Draven Torakhan wrote:
It's my opinion (and that's the key word, so don't get your synthfiber panties in wads), but some genres just do -not- merge well. And honestly, if I want to play sci-fi, I'll play Shadowrun. I play Pathfinder for fantasy.

Funny enough, I have the exact same complaint, in reverse, about Shadowrun.

If I want to play a sci-fi/cyberpunk game, I don't want a bunch of orcs and elves running around doing magic and whatnot. If I want fantasy, I'll play Pathfinder!


Draven Torakhan wrote:

While I'm here posting... Just a bit of a venting. Androids? Robots? RUINS OF SPACESHIPS? Gah. I'm really feeling that Paizo's spreading themselves too far to please everyone. Gunslingers, alchemists, clockworks. Okay, fine. Throw in a healthy amount of Cthulhu mythos. Alright, though iffy on the whole Elder God warping Zon-Kuthon. But now we're throwing sci-fi into fantasy?

It's my opinion (and that's the key word, so don't get your synthfiber panties in wads), but some genres just do -not- merge well. And honestly, if I want to play sci-fi, I'll play Shadowrun. I play Pathfinder for fantasy. YES, I know; I can just avoid running/playing in that area of Golarion, or change things as I see fit as a GM. That's not the point.

The point is, beyond my personal preferences, I'm seeing a lot of random stuff being added into Golarion; and I'm sorry, it comes across as pandering to get more audiences. What's next, Doctor Who as a Venture-Captain?

I share your concerns on all levels.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Considering that Distant Worlds was one of the best selling non-hardcover Pathfinder books and that Numeria AP is currently one of the most requested ones, I believe that the science-fiction/fantasy mix has its' large share of fans that wish for Paizo to expand these tangents.


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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Funny enough, I have the exact same complaint, in reverse, about Shadowrun.

If I want to play a sci-fi/cyberpunk game, I don't want a bunch of orcs and elves running around doing magic and whatnot. If I want fantasy, I'll play Pathfinder!

Can you point me to a successful cyberpunk game currently on the primary market other than Shadowrun?


I think it's good. The fantasy mold has changed in the last three decades very slowly from Lord of the Rings with extra grime for NPCs to a more modern one. Influenced by a lot of movies and anime especially people are seeing new ways to do swords and sorcery games.

But here's the thing, it's mostly the paint here. No matter what happens it will be balance tested and integrated into the game without making major changes.

You're not going to see society on Golarion change that much. Don't expect an industrial revolution because someone dropped by Russia and raided a library of science books. And don't expect the society to alter because of these things.

I guess this comes down to the question: "Is Star Wars Science Fiction or just a story in space?"

Brian E. Harris wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Funny enough, I have the exact same complaint, in reverse, about Shadowrun.

If I want to play a sci-fi/cyberpunk game, I don't want a bunch of orcs and elves running around doing magic and whatnot. If I want fantasy, I'll play Pathfinder!

Can you point me to a successful cyberpunk game on the market other than Shadowrun?

Well, the Cyberpunk time is fading as new weird and transhumanism are on the rise.

Liberty's Edge

While I love Shadowrun, I consider Cyberpunk 2020 to be a successful game.


Is Shadowrun somehow not transhumanist? I mean, I know the label wasn't around (or if it was, as popular/mainstream) when Shadowrun came out, but it kinda seems to embody a whole lot of the transhuman schtick.

As for Cyberpunk 2020, while it may have been successful in the past, it hasn't been in production for, what, 20 years?

I believe RPGnow/DriveThruRPG has a bunch of R. Talsorian stuff available, but it's not as if the game is actively marketed/hyped.

I wouldn't exactly call it a successful game in today's market.

Liberty's Edge

Success in the past is still success. You did not specify that it needed to be currently actively produced.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually R.Talsorian is even now working on re-printing & re-publishing Cyberpunk. It took several hits in the late 90's & early 00's because of R.Talsorian spreading their focus somewhat, & the abysmal Fusion engine didn't help matters any either, but it is still a going concern...

Just not one that gets as much press as Shadowrun.
As far as Shadowrun being Transhumanist...
Granted, I'm not really terribly certain about all the ideas involved in Transhumanism, but not really unless there is a lot more that's changed in Shadowrun since I stopped reading the books back in the mid nineties.

Webstore Gninja Minion

Adjusted thread title.


graywulfe wrote:
Success in the past is still success. You did not specify that it needed to be currently actively produced.

I thought the whole "currently on the primary market" conveyed that (the primary market being the new/retail market, as opposed to the secondary market of used stuff or PDFs of old/out-of-print stuff).

Forgive me if it wasn't clear:

Can anyone suggest a successful, currently in-production, actively marketed and supported cyberpunk game, other than Shadowrun?


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Actually R.Talsorian is even now working on re-printing & re-publishing Cyberpunk. It took several hits in the late 90's & early 00's because of R.Talsorian spreading their focus somewhat, & the abysmal Fusion engine didn't help matters any either, but it is still a going concern...

Just not one that gets as much press as Shadowrun.

I wouldn't consider Cyberpunk 2013/2020/203X/V.3/whatever to be, currently, a successful game, but maybe that's just me.

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

As far as Shadowrun being Transhumanist...

Granted, I'm not really terribly certain about all the ideas involved in Transhumanism, but not really unless there is a lot more that's changed in Shadowrun since I stopped reading the books back in the mid nineties.

From the web:

The Web wrote:
Transhumanism is a movement promoting the augmentation of human abilities to new levels— and, indeed, the creation of new capabilities altogether— through technology.

From Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:
Transhumanism (abbreviated as H+ or h+) is an international intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally transforming the human condition by developing and making widely available technologies to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities

That kinda sounds like a core part of Shadowrun.

Liberty's Edge

Shadowrun is definitely transhumanist on a certain level, it has been exploring the questions "what does it mean to be human and what can be beyond humanity" since its release. You sure you're thinking of Shadowrun Irnk? It has also been heavily based on both cyberpunk and fantasy since the beginning. No one should complain about the magic in shadowrun, it has been there, front and center, since the beginning. Such is the 6th world.

And yeah, cyberpunk hasn't been a thing for a good long while, though I do miss it. (Though, I always have been much more of a shadowrun fan. Now I really want to break out my shadowrun novels and read some more.)


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Why settle for herpes when you could get space herpes!?

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Brian E. Harris wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Funny enough, I have the exact same complaint, in reverse, about Shadowrun.

If I want to play a sci-fi/cyberpunk game, I don't want a bunch of orcs and elves running around doing magic and whatnot. If I want fantasy, I'll play Pathfinder!

Can you point me to a successful cyberpunk game currently on the primary market other than Shadowrun?

Oh, I'm not saying Shadowrun is bad, or that other people can't/shouldn't enjoy it. I'm saying its not my cup of tea.

That said, its not out yet, but Interface Zero 2.0 did just make 80k on Kickstarter, 8 times its funding goal.


I'll have to check that out. I love me some Shadowrun, but I'm definitely interested in some newer cyberpunk, if it's out there.


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Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Actually R.Talsorian is even now working on re-printing & re-publishing Cyberpunk. It took several hits in the late 90's & early 00's because of R.Talsorian spreading their focus somewhat, & the abysmal Fusion engine didn't help matters any either, but it is still a going concern...

Just not one that gets as much press as Shadowrun.
As far as Shadowrun being Transhumanist...
Granted, I'm not really terribly certain about all the ideas involved in Transhumanism, but not really unless there is a lot more that's changed in Shadowrun since I stopped reading the books back in the mid nineties.

That's Fuzion according to my old Bubblegum Crisis ruleset (the ADP one did cyberpunk quite well).

Oh, and GURPS cyberpunk is still supported but I'm not sure if GURPS games count for that.

Shadowrun's okay but it's also the game that said if you modify yourself too much you drop dead and lose your connection with magic, which is a bit less transhuman than others.

It's also built on an entirely different aesthetic of gritty angry 80s-90s looks and fears.

Back on topic: I shall make a pronouncement: Pathfinder is post apocalypse swords and sorcery, not medieval fantasy, never has been.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Journ-O-LST-3 wrote:


Back on topic: I shall make a pronouncement: Pathfinder is post apocalypse swords and sorcery, not medieval fantasy, never has been.

If that is the case, where is my Sunsword and Moks?

Scarab Sages

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Draven Torakhan wrote:


It's my opinion (and that's the key word, so don't get your synthfiber panties in wads), but some genres just do -not- merge well. And honestly, if I want to play sci-fi, I'll play Shadowrun. I play Pathfinder for fantasy. YES, I know; I can just avoid running/playing in that area of Golarion, or change things as I see fit as a GM. That's not the point.

If you knew anything about the Might & Magic computer games, I think your opinion would be different.

The series is all but my religion, and it was ruined when the robots, blasters, and spaceships were REMOVED.


Tim Statler wrote:
Journ-O-LST-3 wrote:


Back on topic: I shall make a pronouncement: Pathfinder is post apocalypse swords and sorcery, not medieval fantasy, never has been.

If that is the case, where is my Sunsword and Moks?

Numeria.


Brian E. Harris wrote:

Is Shadowrun somehow not transhumanist? I mean, I know the label wasn't around (or if it was, as popular/mainstream) when Shadowrun came out, but it kinda seems to embody a whole lot of the transhuman schtick.

As for Cyberpunk 2020, while it may have been successful in the past, it hasn't been in production for, what, 20 years?

I believe RPGnow/DriveThruRPG has a bunch of R. Talsorian stuff available, but it's not as if the game is actively marketed/hyped.

I wouldn't exactly call it a successful game in today's market.

Perhaps you haven't seen THIS then.


Incidentally If shadowrun and DnD had a steampunk love-child it would probably be the Eberron campaign setting. Lets see.

• Global network of guilds that are vital to the economy and have extra-territoriality? Check.
• Racial subclasses that suffer discrimination and prejudice? Check.
• Large skyscraper city that is often the focus of entire campaigns? Check.
• Class that can craft and manipulate little robots? Check.
• Hard boiled detective character options? Check.
• Morally grey alignment rules? Check.
• Monsters as misunderstood people? Check.

Now that is silicon in my peanut butter.

edit -

• character option for attaching mechanical augmentations to your body? Check.
• Apocalyptic event that remade the world as we know it? Check.


Tim Statler wrote:
Journ-O-LST-3 wrote:


Back on topic: I shall make a pronouncement: Pathfinder is post apocalypse swords and sorcery, not medieval fantasy, never has been.

If that is the case, where is my Sunsword and Moks?

Brilliant energy longsword +a bunch and the ARG respectively.


Journ-O-LST-3 wrote:
Back on topic: I shall make a pronouncement: Pathfinder is post apocalypse swords and sorcery, not medieval fantasy, never has been.

It actually might be cool to move up the Age of Darkness and still have the world dealing with the aftereffects of the Starstone hit. It'd take some timeline rejiggering, but could be really interesting.

Cheers!
Landon


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Journ-O-LST-3 wrote:
That's Fuzion according to my old Bubblegum Crisis ruleset (the ADP one did cyberpunk quite well).

Oh yea, forgot about the z. My issues with the Fuzion Ruleset are many & varied, but basically boil down to being a fusion of two disparate rules'sets which really didn't mesh well. The only version I actually had/have any use for was the initial Usagi Yojimbo RPG, which was an incredibly stripped-down & clarified/simplified base mechanic only.

My point regarding Shadowrun not being transhuman was actually more that it wasn't any more transhuman than any other Cyberpunk game/venue/genre out there & I would argue that certain aspects of the world imagery, at least the initial world imagery were less about transhumanism & more about atavism. None of the (demi)humans were actually a result of evolution, forced or otherwise; they were all merely latent/submerged sub-species which had their latency 'unlocked' when 'magic' came back.
Not really what I would consider man+.

Liberty's Edge

Journ-O-LST-3 wrote:
Shadowrun's okay but it's also the game that said if you modify yourself too much you drop dead and lose your connection with magic, which is a bit less transhuman than others.

The idea that if you modify yourself past a certain point you cease to be human, but if you do it properly you can become *something else* isn't transhuman?

Something else being anything from a cyber zombie to a brain in a jar.

That said, just because transhumanism often relies on technology doesn't mean it has to rely on technology (just generally technology is the only method for transhuman games to explore). Metahumanity and the S.U.R.G.E. are as much transhuman as the cybernetics.


Mixing fantacy and scifi could be tons of fun. ONe major problem I ran into when I was in a group that mixed d20 Modern with 3.5. Future weapons and tech are balanced for that campaign setting. Technology essentially is magic so immediately the sorcerer with maximized fire balls and chain lightning is outperformed in damage by a fighter duel wielding full auto laser rifles.

See because weapons from different eras have their own proficiency requirements and the fighter can spare to feats to learn them. In pathfinder/3.5 a wizard can counterspell and use antimagic shells (just 2 examples) for protection but it is ineffective against a tank shell. SO essentially what I am saying is that technology is easier and more powerful then magic in many ways.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

fan·ta·sy [fan-tuh-see, -zee] Show IPA noun, plural fan·ta·sies, verb, fan·ta·sied, fan·ta·sy·ing.
noun
1.
imagination, especially when extravagant and unrestrained.
2.
the forming of mental images, especially wondrous or strange fancies; imaginative conceptualizing.
3.
a mental image, especially when unreal or fantastic; vision: a nightmare fantasy.
4.
Psychology . an imagined or conjured up sequence fulfilling a psychological need; daydream.
5.
a hallucination.


Ashoten wrote:

Mixing fantacy and scifi could be tons of fun. ONe major problem I ran into when I was in a group that mixed d20 Modern with 3.5. Future weapons and tech are balanced for that campaign setting. Technology essentially is magic so immediately the sorcerer with maximized fire balls and chain lightning is outperformed in damage by a fighter duel wielding full auto laser rifles.

See because weapons from different eras have their own proficiency requirements and the fighter can spare to feats to learn them. In pathfinder/3.5 a wizard can counterspell and use antimagic shells (just 2 examples) for protection but it is ineffective against a tank shell. SO essentially what I am saying is that technology is easier and more powerful then magic in many ways.

In both cases they'd be better off putting a level in Gunslinger to just get everything.

And if a wizard with access to 6th level spells can't put down a tank, they're doing it wrong.

But you can add "Science Fiction" to Pathfinder by extrapolating the effects of magic items and spells on society/people.


Anburaid wrote:
Perhaps you haven't seen THIS then.

I'm sure I'll get jumped for this statement, but: That's not an RPG. That's a video game.

And no, I haven't seen it.

(Also, while I may not have qualified "pen and paper" in my earlier statement regarding cyberpunk games, considering the focus of this board, I really shouldn't need to.)

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