A PFS Whip Build

[Majestic8705]

Hi all,

So I'm in a PFS group that's meeting on Sunday and I've been wanting to play a whip character for a while. I'm torn between two builds and I was hoping to get some opinions about which would be better suited towards PFS play.

The first is a finesse whip Bard taking two levels of Fighter (lore warden) for feats and HP and stuff. I'd start Lore Warden for extra health and feat. Level two would be Bard, and level three will be Fighter so I can get Combat Expertise. Race would be Musetouched Aasimar for the bonuses to CHA and DEX.

I really like the versatility of the bard class and the bardic performances are almost always useful. I also love the versatile performance ability of the Bards...basically, I like the bard because I can always do something even if it is merely maintaining a performance and giving everyone else bonuses to hits and damage. However, the build ends up being less than optimal for combat as it takes a lot of feats to really do everything the whip can do.

The second build is an Elf Spire Defender Magus because the ability to deliver touch spells at 15' reach through spellstrike is just too tempting to pass up. Like the bard, I get Combat Expertise free and I also get dodge, though I lose the ability to wear armor. However, I'm thinking of taking a level of Fighter (Cad or Lore Warden) for the armor proficiency.

Obviously, this build would end up being a lot more combat effective. Again, spellstrike + 15' reach weapon = win. I'd end up with more feats, and a much more offensive spell list. However, to make the stats do what I want, I have to really dump CHA and I really dislike doing stuff like that. I also lose the great versatility of the bard -- I'd be useless in any actual 'diplomacy' situation; and there's always the possibility of running into guys that are basically immune to whip style combat (though, I'd also have an Elven Curve blade as a backup weapon if I ever do have to hack and slash my way through the world).

So that's the question: Bard or Magus? My current leaning is towards Bard...but I know there'll be moments in my campaigns where that spellstrike and Magus spell list would be invaluable.

Follow ups: in either case, what should be the priority of a whip build in terms of feats (i.e. the whip mastery line, improved trip line, serpent's lash, etc)?

And: If you think Magus would be more useful, would it be better to go pure Magus or splash a level or two of fighter or something?

[thegreenteagamer]

If there's a rogue in your party, trip build.

Overall it seems you like the bard better overall, but that the Magus would be more utilitarian. For PFS I'd say bard: everyone likes a guy who buffs the party. I'd keep core bard instead of fighter dip, if only cause the slight casting of bard is hurt more seriously by a dip than a full caster IMO.

[Hayato Ken]

With a pure bard, whip mastery line and combat maneuver feats will be too much. The 2 levels of fighter would help a lot there, but of course you fall behind with the bard abilities and spellcasting.

For a bard with reach, perhaps you don´t need those feats though.

[Majestic8705]

@thegreenteagamer - We do presently have a rogue, but I rather suspect he'll be dropping out sometime soonish. I do intend to do a lot of tripping so of the Improved/Greater Combat maneuvers, Trip is the one I'm going for. My question is should I go for that ASAP at the expense of threatening with the whip (up to 10') and getting AoOs from Combat Reflexes?

And as to dipping fighter, whip builds are really feat intensive and that's why I'm dipping fighter. 20th level bard is really underwhelming, imo. I get a save or suck performance, but no progression on any other bardic performance/ability. I think I'd get something from Jack of all Trades at 19 or something, but two bonus feats seems to trump that -- especially if I can use those feats to grab Lingering Performance and Discordant Voice.

@Hayato - I know I'll fall behind with the casting and abilities...that said, it isn't anything I consider to be crippling if one is tactical with how they use their abilities. The focus of this build is the versatility and (probably) trip combat maneuver. Spells are gravy, and not why I'm rolling up the class. Performance progression basically stops at 18 for the stuff that really interests me; only other thing I gain from the bonus bard levels is, again, a save or suck and a few more performances. I don't like the former, and the latter can be mostly mitigated by using Lingering Performance in an intelligent fashion.

While I concede I am somewhat new to tabletop...how often does combat last longer than 10 rounds? The most I've seen is like 8 rounds...but that's because of party incompetence more than anything else.

[Darkflame]

i have been trying to build a whip magus so you can trup and delive shocking grasp although i stil need help !!
was also thinking of making it fighter/magus just dont know

[Darkflame]

END: Male Elf Magus Spire Defender 11/Fighter1
current: Elf fighter 1
CG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +4; Senses Perception +4

Defense
AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 14
hp 9 (1d10)
Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +1
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
--------------------

--------------------
Statistics 20Ptb
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 8, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 17
Traits:
Magical Lineage “shocking grasp”
Second trait to be determined
Languages: Common elven draconic sylvan
Equipment:
Scorpion whip
chain shirt
rapier
+2 Str MWK composite longbow

1. Fighter1: combat reflexes, weapon finesse
2. Spire defender 1 : Exotic Weapon Proficiency ”whip”, Combat Expertise and Dodge
3. Spire defender 2: whip mastery
4. Spire defender 3 : arcane accuracy, Arcane Augmentation (Su)
5. Spire defender 4: weapon focus “whip”,
6. Spire defender 5 : improved whip mastery
7. Spire defender 6 : intensified spell, maneuver mastery “trip”
8. Spire defender 7 :
9. Spire defender 8 : Improved trip
10. Spire defender 9 :
11. Spire defender 10 :
12. Spire defender 11:

[Majestic8705]

@Darkflame - An interesting build. However, I don't think it works. For starters, you'd need Weapon Focus (whip) before you can take Whip Mastery.

Also, as you can see here, whether or not you can actually use the scorpion whip as a whip is entirely up to each individual GM's discretion. So before you commit yourself to using one, make sure you're getting something that actually works as a whip instead of just a 1d4x2 slashing weapon.

Nevertheless, I take it you think that I should get Improved Whip Mastery and Combat Reflexes as quick as I can then, right?

[Darkflame]

1. Fighter1: combat reflexes, weapon finesse
2. Spire defender 1 : Exotic Weapon Proficiency ”whip”, Combat Expertise and Dodge
3. Spire defender 2: weapon focus “whip”,
4. Spire defender 3 : arcane accuracy, Arcane Augmentation (Su)
5. Spire defender 4: whip mastery
6. Spire defender 5 : improved whip mastery
7. Spire defender 6 : intensified spell, maneuver mastery “trip”
8. Spire defender 7 :
9. Spire defender 8 : Improved trip
10. Spire defender 9 :
11. Spire defender 10 :
12. Spire defender 11:

ok so i just switched them !! :-)
if you are a dex build and plan to use atk of opp alot then you need improved weapon mastery asap
i have a pritty straight forward GM im not dooing it for the 1d4 instead of 1d3 just that i dont own a d3 and i do own D4's lolz

[Majestic8705]

...the issue is that a scorpion whip may not actually be capable of being used as a whip at all. Meaning it wouldn't have the 15' reach, wouldn't be a disarm weapon, wouldn't be a trip weapon. It would basically be a really terrible dagger.

As for a d3...you could just roll a d6 and divide by two.

[Darkflame]

Whip, Scorpion

This whip has a series of razorsharp blades and fangs inset along its tip.

Benefit: It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.

Weapon Feature(s): performance (plus disarm, reach, and trip if you are proficient with whip.)

this is from the PFSRD and this is the main recourse we use :-)

[Majestic8705]

Yeah, that bit you bolded is basically the part that is at issue.

What does it mean to use a weapon you're not proficient in (scorpion whip) as a weapon you are proficient in (whip)? Does that mean the scorpion whip now takes on all the properties of a whip -- that is, the lethal weapon is now non-lethal, is a disarming, reach, and tripping weapon? Can you only use it to do things a whip can do? Does it now do 1d3 bludgeoning damage instead of 1d4 slashing? Does it no longer count as a light weapon?

The biggest issue is that the scorpion whip is not a reach weapon -- that is, the thing physically isn't 15' long and never can be. As was pointed out in the thread I linked to, that means it would actually be impossible to use the scorpion whip as a reach weapon. Suppose, for the sake of argument, the entry for the dagger read something like this:

If you are proficient with the halberd, you can use a dagger as a halberd.

It would be absurd to think that a dagger can physically do the same things that a halberd can do -- there's no way it would make sense that a tiny dagger could threaten the same area a halberd could threaten. A dagger is maybe a foot long; a halberd is well over six. The same is arguably true of the scorpion whip -- a scorpion whip is, say, 5' long whereas a whip is 15' long. How can the former hope to have the same reach as the latter?

That said, it is never made explicit anywhere in the rules exactly what that bolded bit means.

My point is merely this: if you do plan on using the scorpion whip, make sure your GM has read the entry and agrees with your interpretation of it because he may have a different interpretation.

[Azarkon_]

I am currently playing a whip build for PFS.

Lore warden, only up to level 4 so far. Half-orc, got proficiency for both with alternate racial beastmaster.

I'm splitting my focus right now between whips and nets.

If you don't threaten with the weapon, you do not get an attack of opportunity with it. You do not need combat reflexes until you have the feat that lets whips threaten. You can get that feat at +5 bab if I remember correctly.

What the GMs in my area (that I have run the charater with) are doing is following the character builder that I am using.
I had to take a seperate proficiency for scorpion whip, and then all the whip feats I had apply to the scorpion whip.

Unless better clarification comes down from on high, this is what we are using.

Check with your DMs to see how they want to handle it and have a back up character to use if a DM doesn't go with the consensus. It is the best we can do until they clarify.

[Majestic8705]

Quote:

If you don't threaten with the weapon, you do not get an attack of opportunity with it. You do not need combat reflexes until you have the feat that lets whips threaten. You can get that feat at +5 bab if I remember correctly.

Well, the bard build started fighter so I have two feats which I used to grab Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes. I would have grabbed something more directly whip related, but they all require proficiency in the whip which I won't have until level 2 when I take my first bard level. Other candidates would have been bard stuff, but I can't take those until I have a level in bard either.

Nevertheless...is the threatening and AoO build the way to go then? The only reason I hesitate over doing this is really because of Serpent's Lash which seems like a brilliant feat at lower levels, but somewhat underwhelming later on. Hence the earlier I get it, I'll get more use out of it. Making extra AoOs at reach, by contrast, is one of those things which is always useful and hence it would still make sense to take as a feat at later levels as well as earlier levels.

[Darkflame]

i can stil use my rapier for atk opp ill probably wield em both alot! dropping the rapier when i want to attack with spell combat

[redward]

Here's my whip-trip Bard build for PFS. She's retired now, and while by no means an optimal build, I was quite satisfied with her performance throughout her career:

--------------------
Human Bard (Archaeologist) 12
Str 14 (16) , Dex 16 (18), Con 11 (14), Int 13 (14), Wis 7 (8), Cha 16 (20)
Base Atk +9; CMB +14 (+16 Dirty Trick, +18 Trip); CMD 29 (31 Dirty Trick & Trip)

Traits:
Reactionary
Vagabond Chid (Disable Device)

Equipment:
+1 Whip
+3 Str Darkwood composite longbow
Celestial Armor
Burglar's Buckler

1. Lingering Performance, Combat Expertise
2. -
3. Improved Trip
4. Weapon Focus (Whip) (Rogue Trick: Weapon Training)
5. Whip Mastery
6. -
7. Improved Whip Mastery
8. Combat Expertise (Rogue Trick: Combat Trick)
9. Greater Trip
10. -
11. Greater Whip Mastery
12. Weapon Finesse (Rogue Trick: Finesse Rogue)

Magic Items:
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Headband of Alluring Charisma +4
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (slotted in Dayfinder)

--------------------

As I said, this isn't really optimized as I was learning as I went, but she never really had a problem tripping things was also able to provide other useful support to the party in buffs and debuffs. With her whip and all of its attendant bonuses (including Archeaologist's Luck) she's at something like +24 to Trip.

[Gwen Smith]

Majestic8705 wrote:

Nevertheless...is the threatening and AoO build the way to go then? The only reason I hesitate over doing this is really because of Serpent's Lash which seems like a brilliant feat at lower levels, but somewhat underwhelming later on. Hence the earlier I get it, I'll get more use out of it. Making extra AoOs at reach, by contrast, is one of those things which is always useful and hence it would still make sense to take as a feat at later levels as well as earlier levels.

Another nifty thing you can do with the AoOs at reach is get Bodyguard and aid another within that 15 foot range. This is nice if you're mainly running a party-buff bard: Bodyguard gives you a way of buffing your allies' AC when it isn't your turn.

And don't forget Weapon Wand to put a cure light wand in your whip. At lower levels, Cure light at 15 feet out is awesome.

[Psion-Psycho]

I know it is not what ur asking for exactly but this is what i did with my last whip build if ur interested. It did nicely and i really loved it and so did the others with me. Mind u it is a bit of an oddity but u can see what feats i used to make the whip work for me if any thing else.

-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Fighter - Lore Warden, Rogue - Thug

-Stats (20 pt)-
STR 28 (Base 15)(+2 racial)(+5 leveling)(+6 item)
DEX 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
CON 16 (Base 10)
INT 08 (Base 13)
WIS 10 (Base 10)
CHA 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)

AC 41 (+ an addition 4 from combat expertise and an additional 5 from defending for a total of 50, also + 10 more from Offensive Defensive)
Touch 21
Flat - Footed 30

-Class / Feats-
R01 EWP Whip, Dodge
R02 Talent Weapon Training (Weapon Focus Whip)
R03 Whip Mastery
R04 Talent Offensive Defense
F05 Mobility, Spring Attack
F06 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack
R07 Dazzling Display
R08 Talent Strong Impression (Intimidating Prowess)
R09 Shatter Defenses
R10 Talent Combat Trick (Lunge)
R11 Skill Focus Intimidate
R12 A Talent Improved Evasion
R13 Persuasive
R14 A Talent Entanglement of Blades
R15 Improved Feint
R16 A Talent Feat (Greater Feint)
R17 Skill Focus Bluff
R18 A Talent Skill Mastery
R19 Deceitful
R20 A Talent (w/e u want)

Traits = Bully, Defensive Strategist

-Gear-
+5 Defending Holy Ghost Touch Whip
+5 Mithril Chain Shirt
+5 Shield Cloak
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Natural Armor Necklace
Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone)
Belt of Physical Might (Str/Dex)
Headband of Alluring Charisma

-Misc-
Character performs a full-round action intimidate to demoralize all enemy targets within a 30ft radius then proceeds to attack with Whirlwind Lunge Attacks that apply Offensive Defense upon all targets or Entanglement of Blades depending on situation. For single targets move action Feint with a standard action whip attack or full-round action intimidate with full attack next round. Intimidate at cap level is d20+48 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Persuasive +5 Cha +9 Str +1 trait) and bluff is d20+38 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Deceitful +5 Cha).