| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
In another thread I paused to consider what options are available for improving these three classes. Rather than throwing abilities at the classes, or radical changes, I would suggest that any changes must be thematic with the class's nature. They must also be minimal, so that they can be applied with minimal disruption to the game.
The monk I have done a lot of work on along this vein, and there is a thread for my preferred fixes here.
The Rogue I've thought about now and then for a while. The monk's main features are their skills, their main combat ability is sneak attack. The big problem for the rogue is that other classes do skills as well if not better (and have other skills beside), and sneak attack...has problems. The rogue is meant to be a clever 'everyman' guy, someone who has his wits as his weapon. Any fixes should take this into account.
The fighter is the 'least weak' of the three. Nonetheless the fighter has his problems: he has little out-of-combat utility, and his Will saves are famously weak. The fighter's concept is again an 'everyman' hero who uses his discipline and skill-at-arms to overcome. Any fixes should come from this angle.
Ideas for Rogue Fixes
The main avenue for rogue fixes should come through rogue talents. These are terribly underused and often weak. I would recommend that rogue's firstly gain an extra talent at first level, as well. To address the rogue's problems I would suggest the following talents or abilities:
Jack of All Trades - The rogue uses his wits to improvise what he doesn't know from what he does. The rogue may treat any skill in which he has no skill ranks as having as many ranks as he has Intelligence bonus. This does not gain him the +3 bonus for class skills he would get if he had actual ranks in a skill, but does allow him to make untrained checks on any skill.
Work Smarter, Not Harder - The rogue uses his smarts to improve what he's good at. The rogue gains a bonus equal to his Intelligence bonus to any skills he has ranks in that do not rely on Intelligence.
Hit Where it Hurts - The rogue may make a Perception check as a swift action against the AC of an enemy. If they succeed they may make a sneak attack as a standard action, even if the target is neither flanked nor denied it's dexterity bonus.
Placed Blow - whenever making a sneak attack, the rogue may go for accuracy over damage. Each 1d6 of sneak attack instead becomes a +1 insight bonus to both attack and damage, and the bonus damage will multiply on critical hits.
Strike with Precision - when not making a sneak attack, the rogue gains a +1 bonus to damage for each 1d6 of sneak attack they possess if they attack with a finesse weapon.
Ideas for Fighter Fixes
The fighter needs a few adjustments to his class features, and I would suggest doing as follows:
Discipline - replaces Bravery, Discipline is a bonus to Will saves across the board, not just to fear effects. Also adds to physical (strength and dexterity based, to represent athleticism) and Craft (weapons)/Craft (armour) skills (have to maintain equipment!) that the fighter has ranks in.
Skills - the fighter gains 4+int ranks per level, not 2.
You stole my fighter fix! You are making me angry... You would not like me when I'm angry... Byrd Rage!!!!
Just playin, I agree with fighter fix.
Some of the rogue stuff is good, but I proposed a bit more in this thread . That plus the assimilation of the ninja back into the rogue.
Monks are a different issue altogether... Scaling Weapon training for monk weapons is a solid start though.
Your fighter stuff...
Discipline: What I would personally like to see is a numeric bonus that scales at the existing rate, but can be applied to one of a number of things, chosen at 2nd level, such as:
1) one of the three saves
2) a bonus to a skill of choice, and it becomes a class skill
3) bonus to touch ac
4) bonus to ac vs aoo
This would be a more customizable, and because of that more fun. A simple bonus to fear saves should be twice the listed bonus. Too specific.
As far as the skills go, I love skill points, but part of me says keep it at 2 points. The fighter's "skills" are with his armor, weapons, and combat tricks.
[...]
The monk I have done a lot of work on along this vein, and there is a thread for my preferred fixes here.
I don't really have anything to add about monks.
The Rogue I've thought about now and then for a while. The monk's main features are their skills, their main combat ability is sneak attack. The big problem for the rogue is that other classes do skills as well if not better (and have other skills beside), and sneak attack...has problems. The rogue is meant to be a clever 'everyman' guy, someone who has his wits as his weapon. Any fixes should take this into account.
I gutted gunslinger for mechanics I felt should have been applied to rogue, particularly for sneak attack which you can find here.
Additionally, I agree regarding the rogue talents. Many of them are mediocre at best.
The fighter is the 'least weak' of the three. Nonetheless the fighter has his problems: he has little out-of-combat utility, and his Will saves are famously weak. The fighter's concept is again an 'everyman' hero who uses his discipline and skill-at-arms to overcome. Any fixes should come from this angle.
I currently give fighters 4 + Int skill points and added heal (combat medic) and perception (guard duty)to their class skill list. I am, however, with Ciaran Barnes on this: I'm still feeling like it should be 2 skill points. Count me as undecided.
I believe I also added a an option for fighters called Leader Among Men which allowed them to sub in their Strength for Charisma on social social rolls.
I really like these suggestions, however there is something.
placed blow and strike with precision, this nets to a +10 bonus to hit, and a +20 bonus bonus to finesse weapons by level 19. Or another way to look at it is at level 9 they have a +5 to hit and a +10 to damage. I am not sure how this balances against other classes, though it appears to lie somewhere between full favored enemy bonus and a smite against evil outsiders.
Rogue: I do like the first 4; I have the same for JOAT but without the Int bonus. Not sure about strike with precision. Other talent upgrades I have are
* Skill Focus (any, multiple times)
* +2/+2 skill feats (any, multiple times)
* xxx Feint
* xxx TWF
* xxx Steal
* xxx Dirty Trick
* Agile Maneuvers
* Dastardly Finish.
* Powerful Sneak is +1 damage per die with Sneak Attack, no penalty
* Stand Up doesn’t provoke an AoO
Advanced Talents
* Polymath: He considers all skills to be class skills.
* Deadly Sneak is +1 damage per die with Sneak Attack, no penalty
Also
* Cynical: a rogue is inherently distrustful. At 3rd level he gains a +1 bonus to saving throws against charms and illusions. This increases by +1 every 3 levels (6th, 9th, etc).
* Slippery Combatant: a rogue’s BAB is equal to his level for purposes of calculating CMD.
* Backstabber: a rogue gains +4 to hit instead of +2 when flanking.
Fighters: Not convinced about Discipline. You might as well just give them a good Will save, and the skill bonus is just clutter. I changed Bravery to a flat +1 per level.
Yes, 4 skill points, but I give them Acrobatics and Heal.
Otherwise, free Vital Strike or Cleave at 8th, Gt Cleave or IVS at 13th, GVS at 18th. Helps with the Must Full Attack problem.
I've not tackled monks because there are none IMC, but I'm starting with:
Full BAB.
Gain Leaping Kick at 1st level: as Vital Strike on unarmed attacks if moving at least 10’
Improved Leaping Kick as Improved Vital Strike at 7th level.
Greater Leaping Kick as Greater Vital Strike at 13th level.
I expect more will be needed, but it encourages mobility.
You stole my fighter fix! You are making me angry... You would not like me when I'm angry... Byrd Rage!!!!
Just playin, I agree with fighter fix.
Thanks! Didn't realize I'd nicked bits of it, but some of these ideas have been bandied around so much it's hard to say who really came up with them.
Some of the rogue stuff is good, but I proposed a bit more in this thread . That plus the assimilation of the ninja back into the rogue.
Monks are a different issue altogether... Scaling Weapon training for monk weapons is a solid start though.
On complete redesigns, maybe. I'm not looking at complete redesigns, I'm looking at tweaks.
Additionally, I agree regarding the rogue talents. Many of them are mediocre at best.
Agreed. Glad you like them.
I currently give fighters 4 + Int skill points and added heal (combat medic) and perception (guard duty)to their class skill list. I am, however, with Ciaran Barnes on this: I'm still feeling like it should be 2 skill points. Count me as undecided.
I know what you mean...I was undecided, but went with it in the end.
I believe I also added a an option for fighters called Leader Among Men which allowed them to sub in their Strength for Charisma on social social rolls.
That's an interesting option. Actually, I'd love for the fighter to have options for different kinds of warrior - from the leader to the swashbuckler to the soldier - but that's more for a redesign, not a tweak. For these changes I'm being a minimalist.
I really like these suggestions, however there is something.
placed blow and strike with precision, this nets to a +10 bonus to hit, and a +20 bonus bonus to finesse weapons by level 19. Or another way to look at it is at level 9 they have a +5 to hit and a +10 to damage. I am not sure how this balances against other classes, though it appears to lie somewhere between full favored enemy bonus and a smite against evil outsiders.
Good job they cannot stack, then. One only applies to sneak attacks, the other only applies when NOT sneak attacking. At any rate these make the rogue more effective in combat than he was, and that's not a bad thing.
Rogue: I do like the first 4; I have the same for JOAT but without the Int bonus. Not sure about strike with precision. Other talent upgrades I have are
...
Some good ideas here, though some are already covered via existing rogue talents.
Also
* Cynical: a rogue is inherently distrustful. At 3rd level he gains a +1 bonus to saving throws against charms and illusions. This increases by +1 every 3 levels (6th, 9th, etc).
This is what I missed, a boost to Will saves. I'd be tempted to make it an Intelligence bonus, call it something like Slippery Mind, and apply to all Will saves. If it were a flat bonus I'd scale it at +1/(4-6 levels) though, again I don't think it needs a huge boost, but more of a nudge.
* Slippery Combatant: a rogue’s BAB is equal to his level for purposes of calculating CMD.
There's already a feat for this, Defensive Combat Training. Let's not repeat what's already out there.
* Backstabber: a rogue gains +4 to hit instead of +2 when flanking.
I think this is already out there as well.
Fighters: Not convinced about Discipline. You might as well just give them a good Will save, and the skill bonus is just clutter. I changed Bravery to a flat +1 per level.
Again, I'm making tweaks, not huge changes. Plus the fighter can still take Iron Will etc. if he wants.
Yes, 4 skill points, but I give them Acrobatics and Heal.
Yes, more class skills would be good...I may revisit that!
Otherwise, free Vital Strike or Cleave at 8th, Gt Cleave or IVS at 13th, GVS at 18th. Helps with the Must Full Attack problem.
The full attack problem is a whole other issue, and one I'd prefer to deal with separately.
I've not tackled monks because there are none IMC
Monks are something I'm looking at in the other thread, I don't want to get bogged down with them here as their issues are way bigger.
If anyone wants to pinch any ideas here, feel free! I am throwing out suggestions for small changes that can make a big difference.
ah ok misread that, much better.
Give the fighter perception. Even the lowly commoner has perception as a class skill, and any solder should be observant anyway.
I was thinking to implement some slightly different fighter fixes.
1) skills 4+int, add sense motive and perception.
* They seem to be skills a trained warrior should at least be decent at and with a wisdom that is presumably not too high it can't hurt to make them class skills at least.
2) Defense training, replaces armor training.
At 3rd level and every 4 levels after the fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and reflex saves, armor check penalties of any armor worn are reduced by 1. In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
* The armor training ability forces a fighter to invest in dexterity to get the most out off the ability taking away from investment in other ability scores. With Defeit makes them less prone to touch attacks and it increases their CMD. Between this ability and Ready for Battle they gain most of the non-skill benefits of a high dexterity making them less MAD and more competitive with other martials.
3) Ready for battle, replaces bravery.
At 2nd level the fighter gains a +1 bonus on initiative checks and fear saves, this bonus increases by 1 every 4 levels.
At 6th level a fighter is no longer ruled by fear, it treats any fear effects it is suffering from as 1 step lower : a panicked fighter is affected as if frightened, a frightened fighter like shaken and the shaken condition has no effect.
At 10th level a fighter can always act in a surprise round even if he does not notice his enemies, though he remains flat-footed until he acts.
* Making the ability worthwhile though not overpowered by any stretch in my opinion.
I would suggest that any changes must be thematic with the class's nature.
Agreed
Ideas for Rogue Fixes
The main avenue for rogue fixes should come through rogue talents.
Agreed.
These are terribly underused and often weak. I would recommend that rogue's firstly gain an extra talent at first level, as well.
Hmm. Not sure, might work; would probably have to be from a limited feat pool.
To address the rogue's problems I would suggest the following talents or abilities:
Jack of All Trades - The rogue uses his wits to improvise what he doesn't know from what he does. The rogue may treat any skill in which he has no skill ranks as having as many ranks as he has Intelligence bonus. This does not gain him the +3 bonus for class skills he would get if he had actual ranks in a skill, but does allow him to make untrained checks on any skill.
I like this.
Work Smarter, Not Harder - The rogue uses his smarts to improve what he's good at. The rogue gains a bonus equal to his Intelligence bonus to any skills he has ranks in that do not rely on Intelligence.
This makes INT much more important for the Rogue. Not necessarily a bad thing for someone who is supposed to live by their wits.
Hit Where it Hurts - The rogue may make a Perception check as a swift action against the AC of an enemy. If they succeed they may make a sneak attack as a standard action, even if the target is neither flanked nor denied it's dexterity bonus.
Don't like this one. On the surface it looks good, but it turns their main combat ability from something that needs careful thought and preparation to achieve to something that requires a skill check. It "Dumbs down" the class. That might work for the BSF, but not the rogue.
Placed Blow - whenever making a sneak attack, the rogue may go for accuracy over damage. Each 1d6 of sneak attack instead becomes a +1 insight bonus to both attack and damage, and the bonus damage will multiply on critical hits.
I like this. It gives the Rogue options without making them overpowered.
Strike with Precision - when not making a sneak attack, the rogue gains a +1 bonus to damage for each 1d6 of sneak attack they possess if they attack with a finesse weapon..
Love this lots. Anything that encourages a Rogue to use a finesse weapon is bang on target. If you want bigger weapons, play a fighter!
Would also like to see bonuses to feint and disarm with finesse weapons, perhaps as talents.
Ideas for Fighter Fixes
The fighter needs a few adjustments to his class features, and I would suggest doing as follows:Discipline - replaces Bravery, Discipline is a bonus to Will saves across the board, not just to fear effects. Also adds to physical (strength and dexterity based, to represent athleticism) and Craft (weapons)/Craft (armour) skills (have to maintain equipment!) that the fighter has ranks in.
Not sure. This can make the fighter extremely adept at maneouvres. While a maneouvre build should be possible, I don't think it should be generic. the bonus to Will saves would be welcome. Adding perception, acrobatics and healing to class skills would be fine.
Skills - the fighter gains 4+int ranks per level, not 2.
This would be definite no for me. Fighters are not supposed to have skills - they fight. The problem is that extra feats do not make up for the power of smite, favoured enemy or rage (and rangers and paladins have spells, too!) especially at higher levels. Extra skills would not make up for it either, and would be taking the fighter out of his main area (fighting). What the fighter needs is some boost at higher levels. perhaps tactician (for INT fighters) or Leadership (for CHA Fighters) or inspirational (For WIS Fighters) - though this may make them MAD. Needn't be huge, but enough to give the Fighter an edge. perhaps via new feats so it can be bought from their bonus feats (and probably requiring BAB 16+ so only martial characters can get them).
These are terribly underused and often weak. I would recommend that rogue's firstly gain an extra talent at first level, as well.Hmm. Not sure, might work; would probably have to be from a limited feat pool.
How so?
I like this.To address the rogue's problems I would suggest the following talents or abilities:
Jack of All Trades - The rogue uses his wits to improvise what he doesn't know from what he does. The rogue may treat any skill in which he has no skill ranks as having as many ranks as he has Intelligence bonus. This does not gain him the +3 bonus for class skills he would get if he had actual ranks in a skill, but does allow him to make untrained checks on any skill.
Thank you.
Work Smarter, Not Harder - The rogue uses his smarts to improve what he's good at. The rogue gains a bonus equal to his Intelligence bonus to any skills he has ranks in that do not rely on Intelligence.This makes INT much more important for the Rogue. Not necessarily a bad thing for someone who is supposed to live by their wits.
That was the intention. It doesn't nerf non-int builds because these are options, but it does make the dumb rogue something to avoid. Personally I have always viewed the rogue as being Int & Dex primary.
Hit Where it Hurts - The rogue may make a Perception check as a swift action against the AC of an enemy. If they succeed they may make a sneak attack as a standard action, even if the target is neither flanked nor denied it's dexterity bonus.Don't like this one. On the surface it looks good, but it turns their main combat ability from something that needs careful thought and preparation to achieve to something that requires a skill check. It "Dumbs down" the class. That might work for the BSF, but not the rogue.
This allows the rogue to sneak attack, as a standard action, something he wouldn't otherwise be able to. It makes the class feature more universally useful, rather than being so situational.
Placed Blow - whenever making a sneak attack, the rogue may go for accuracy over damage. Each 1d6 of sneak attack instead becomes a +1 insight bonus to both attack and damage, and the bonus damage will multiply on critical hits.I like this. It gives the Rogue options without making them overpowered.
Thank you. I wanted the rogue to have the option to hit accurately - like the monk, he has trouble hitting, and if you can't hit, you can't do anything else. Sort of Power Attack in reverse, really.
Strike with Precision - when not making a sneak attack, the rogue gains a +1 bonus to damage for each 1d6 of sneak attack they possess if they attack with a finesse weapon..Love this lots. Anything that encourages a Rogue to use a finesse weapon is bang on target. If you want bigger weapons, play a fighter!
Would also like to see bonuses to feint and disarm with finesse weapons, perhaps as talents.
Exactly my point. I think bonuses to finesse weapons should be to all classes, though - after all, everyone has to pay a feat-tax to use them, they may as well get some bang for their buck.
Not sure. This can make the fighter extremely adept at maneouvres. While a maneouvre build should be possible, I don't think it should be generic. the bonus to Will saves would be welcome. Adding perception, acrobatics and healing to class skills would be fine.Ideas for Fighter Fixes
The fighter needs a few adjustments to his class features, and I would suggest doing as follows:Discipline - replaces Bravery, Discipline is a bonus to Will saves across the board, not just to fear effects. Also adds to physical (strength and dexterity based, to represent athleticism) and Craft (weapons)/Craft (armour) skills (have to maintain equipment!) that the fighter has ranks in.
I fail to see how it adds to maneuvers at all - it's a bonus to some skills and to Will saves. That's it.
Skills - the fighter gains 4+int ranks per level, not 2.This would be definite no for me. Fighters are not supposed to have skills - they fight. The problem is that extra feats do not make up for the power of smite, favoured enemy or rage (and rangers and paladins have spells, too!) especially at higher levels. Extra skills would not make up for it either, and would be taking the fighter out of his main area (fighting). What the fighter needs is some boost at higher levels. perhaps tactician (for INT fighters) or Leadership (for CHA Fighters) or inspirational (For WIS Fighters) - though this may make them MAD. Needn't be huge, but enough to give the Fighter an edge. perhaps via new feats so it can be bought from their bonus feats (and probably requiring BAB 16+ so only martial characters can get them).
I hear what you're saying, but the big issues for fighters is not their ability to hurt people. It's their strong focus on one thing. On the flip side a couple of people have mentioned that they don't like more skills on fighters. Perhaps more class skills, and some boosts to some skills.
The kinds of changes you are proposing are, however, something for a complete re-write of the class, something I am specifically looking to avoid.
@annoying Orange
Your changes are interesting, but focus on making the fighter better at fighting rather than giving him more breadth. He doesn't need to be better at fighting, so far as I can see, he needs to do Other Stuff.
Give the fighter perception. Even the lowly commoner has perception as a class skill, and any solder should be observant anyway.
Good point.
An int bonus to some skills is not unprecedented, the sleepless detective gets it to perception, sense motive and diplomacy in addition to wis and cha. These are the 3 most usefull skills IMO. I can see a skilled climber, swimmer, and disabler as well.
I haven't gotten a chance to playtest these fixes, but for Monk, my main fix is:
Nimble Strike: A monk may use his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier on attack rolls and damage rolls for all melee attacks with his Unarmed Strike and special Monk weapons.
In addition, I'm house-ruling that monks get full BAB (still d8 HD, though), because it's simpler that way, and monks need all the help they can get.
For Fighters, I haven't decided my full fixes, but I know 4+Int Skills, (Stealing from Boz) The choice of Ref or Will as a second good save, replacing Bravery, and then I'm considering maybe giving a bonus to CMB that goes up with level, to keep a reasonable shot at beating enemies' CMDs, and maybe a way to buff their ability to tank. I didn't like everything about 4e, but their tanking mechanic for fighters was pretty well designed, and I think this could work into AoOs somehow.
Also, though not a fighter fix per se, but I've removed Combat Expertise from being a feat tax for tons of feats, which should give fighters more reasonable options.
As for rogues, I'm not sure what to do, so much. I've only really come up with a couple modifications to the Firearm Talents, the one being that Firearm Training gives the rogue Gunsmithing, as the Gunslinger feature of the same name, but the rogue can select a broken gun from: Pistol, Coat Pistol, and Dagger Pistol, and a Modification to Grit! that the rogue can use Charisma instead of Wisdom to determine her maximum Grit points.
These were from my sole experience with PF rogues, where the player didn't want to play a full-on gunslinger, but more of a rogue, so I modded those Talents. Most people I've played with who want to play a rogueish character go the Bard (usually Archaeologist) route or the Vivisection Alchemist route, depending on what they want out of the class.
Funny, my buddy proposed similar changes to the monk. He proposed every +10 movement could be used as 5 foot steps(so by the time you had +30 you could move 15 feet while flurrying without provoking.) Not sure that defense of the mind and mind over body are necessary.
Fighter - I like most those changes, but your giving them too much I think.
I like the skill training aspect, but I think monks should be toned down to fighter progression. I actually really like this, as the biggest problem with the rogue is other people can do his job better, let him take back some of his jobs.
The Monk probably doesn't need one of the two defensive bonuses, but he really does need something to supplement the MAD he has going.
I agree, the Fighter changes are probably too much. He would be fine without the doubling of combat feats, but I still feel most of the feats are too weak when compared to Barbarian rage power scaling.
The rogue definitely needs to take some of his prowess back in the skills section. The biggest thing that destroyed him there was the removal of cross-class skills.
If I had to choose one thing out of the whole set, it would be the skill training. The non magical classes really need something to give them a boost. They should all generally be better with their chosen skills than the casters. I'd even consider giving it to the barbarian as well, but his rage powers come with some non-combat benefit.
I think I'd take mind over body over defense of the mind, simply because they already get three good save progressions, and two of the three saves come from some of a monks' more prioritized stats (though, I'm a little biased, since I'm somewhat looking at this through my own House Rule lens, in which Dex is higher priority than most builds).
I'm not sure if I agree in the skills side. I like the consolidation and elimination of cross-class skills, since it lets a rogue branch out from their normal selection of skills. They can cover all their rogue bases, and still have points to spend on more flavorful stuff. Or they could just decide to cover all the rogues' bases, and ignore Int in favor of another stat. The real killer of the rogue is the Bard, since they are better skill-monkeys than rogues, with versatile performance, and they're also 3/4 casters. Giving rogues bonuses, like the bonuses from the skill-trainings you listed would be helpful, but I think Niche Protection has already sailed with the Bard, so my suggestion would be to expand the Rogue, so they're not defined solely by the niche that is no longer protected.
A few notes I made the other day when thinking about this same issue:
Monk Fix -
Level 2 - Defense of the Mind
Add a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier to all Saving Throws.
Note: This matches with similar Paladin defensive ability.
Two objections here:
1) This doesn't fix anything, the monk does not have a problem with saving throws. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.2) it's just making the monk the best at saves (paladins only have two good saves, monks have three, so now the monk is ahead).
However I'd consider it as a replacement for Diamond Soul...
Level 3 - Flurry of feet
While performing a flurry of blows, a monk may move up to his Fast Movement bonus.
He may take this movement before, after, or between the attacks of his flurry, as long as the movement does not exceed his Fast Movement bonus.
Note: This allows the monk to be a mobile fighter, and promote synergy of flurry of blows with fast movement.
It's complicated, though. Keep It Simple. I'd stick with ki-pool allowing 20 feet movement as a swift action instead of +20 to movement.
Level 4 - Ki Pool
Add the following:
A monk gains an enhancement bonus of +1 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed strike. This enhancement bonus increases every 3 levels after 5th, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level.
Note: Removes terrible reliance on Amulet of Mighty Fists, and makes it a bonus item.
Absolutely, I'm already using a variant of this (see my monk thread referenced in the first post of this thread).
Level 6 - Mind over Body
At 6th level, you may use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Constitution modifier to calculate hit points.
Remove some MAD, which monks dearly need.
Yes, but it doesn't fix the other problem MAD contributes too, inability to hit things due to a low hitting stat. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Fighter fix -
Skill points change from 2 to 4.
Check.
Feat Training - Replaces first level feat. Fighters receive double any numerical bonus granted by a combat feat.
Note: Fighters main class feature is feats. They should receive a bonus to them, as they do not scale well.
What, have a fighter able to do +4 or +6 damage for -1 to hit on Power Attack? Broken. Besides, fighters are ALREADY good at fighting. It's everything else they need help with.
Armor Training - Increase actual armor AC instead of of max dex.
Note: Max dex bonus increase can be purchased cheaply, it should not be a major class ability.
The fighter is already best at AC, he doesn't need to be better.
Weapon Training - Increase to +2 attack +2 damage per instance.
Note: To match with Ranger's favored enemy ability.
Why? The fighter's bonuses are the smallest because they apply across the board. They don't need to be better. What fighters need is other options out of combat.
Bravery - Apply to all Will saves.
Note: Fighters need something to improve their will saves.
Agreed.
Rogue Fix -
Skill training section below should cover both their combat problems and their problems being overshadowed by other classes in utility.
Too complex. Keep it simple. Extra talents can cover this.
Rogue.
Too much.
Strike with precision combined with placed blow. +10 to attack and damage when they're sneak attacking and +10 when not. I like that they can sneak attack on their own now.
Well they are only getting +10 to damage with finesse weapons when NOT employing sneak attack, where they will still have problems hitting. Perhaps reducing this to +1 to hit/1d6 of sneak attack would be better, though?
As for the +10 to hit +10 to damage, remember this REPLACES sneak attack dice. On the whole, 10d6 sneak attack would be an average +35 damage. +1 to hit is worth +2 damage, so taking the Placed Blow option you will be looking at around +30 damage on average - but what you DO get out of it is a way better chance to actually hit with a sneak attack.
+ Int to all skills is way too much, especially since you also give ranks equal to int modifier as another ability.
The two do not and cannot stack. Jack of All Trades only gives you a 'virtual' skill rank of your Int bonus in a skill in which you are untrained. Great at low levels, no great shakes at high level save that you can make any skill check untrained. Work Smarter, Not Harder adds Int bonus to skills the rogue has ranks in (provided they are not int-based), and so precludes untrained skills. It's certainly no more broken than the bards inspire competence ability (situationally improves any skills) combined with Bardic Knowledge, or the ranger's bonus to skills from favoured enemy (selectively improves skills a LOT), which is what I intended it to match. It makes the rogue best at skills all-round much like the fighter is best at fighting all-round.
Fighter: looks good.
Thank you.
I haven't gotten a chance to playtest these fixes, but for Monk, my main fix is:
Nimble Strike: A monk may use his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier on attack rolls and damage rolls for all melee attacks with his Unarmed Strike and special Monk weapons.
Effectively Weapon Finesse, but applying to a few extra weapons. I went for Wisdom in this, because it loves more physical options open - making it dexterity makes the monk automatically dexterity & wisdom focussed, when strength builds make up a lot of existing monks.
In addition, I'm house-ruling that monks get full BAB (still d8 HD, though), because it's simpler that way, and monks need all the help they can get.
I'd like to address this, but I do not actually see it as a major issue if the monk can move-and-flurry. My preferred option on a complete rewrite would be a weapon training bonus on monk weapons/unarmed strike and just 3/4 BAB. You end up with pretty much the same bonus at the same level. However, I'm only looking at tweaks in this thread, nor re-writes.
For Fighters, I haven't decided my full fixes, but I know 4+Int Skills, (Stealing from Boz) The choice of Ref or Will as a second good save, replacing Bravery, and then I'm considering maybe giving a bonus to CMB that goes up with level, to keep a reasonable shot at beating enemies' CMDs, and maybe a way to buff their ability to tank. I didn't like everything about 4e, but their tanking mechanic for fighters was pretty well designed, and I think this could work into AoOs somehow.
How many classes get to choose their good saves? Well none, so why start now? I agree fighters need a boost to saves, but I don't think this idea is the solution.
Also fighters are ALREADY the best at CMB, as they get to apply weapon training, weapon enhancement, weapon properties, and Weapon Focus bonuses all to CMB performed with a weapon.
There are already feats to improve AoOs to allow fighters to tie down areas.
Also, though not a fighter fix per se, but I've removed Combat Expertise from being a feat tax for tons of feats, which should give fighters more reasonable options.
I'm in two minds about this. I'd like for there to be options for smart fighters. That said, a feat like Furious Focus but applying to Combat Expertise would go a long way to making it less of a feat tax and more of a benefit.
As for rogues, I'm not sure what to do, so much. I've only really come up with a couple modifications to the Firearm Talents, the one being that Firearm Training gives the rogue Gunsmithing, as the Gunslinger feature of the same name, but the rogue can select a broken gun from: Pistol, Coat Pistol, and Dagger Pistol, and a Modification to Grit! that the rogue can use Charisma instead of Wisdom to determine her maximum Grit points.
What happens if the DM is like me and hates guns in fantasy? Then your changes amount to nothing.
These were from my sole experience with PF rogues, where the player didn't want to play a full-on gunslinger, but more of a rogue, so I modded those Talents. Most people I've played with who want to play a rogueish character go the Bard (usually Archaeologist) route or the Vivisection Alchemist route, depending on what they want out of the class.
If you wanted to do this, multi-classing allows you to. No need to re-write one class to be like another.
OK, looking at the feedback thus far, I would amend the fixes for the rogue and fighter as follows:
Rogue:
Jack of All Trades - The rogue uses his wits to improvise what he doesn't know from what he does. The rogue may treat any skill in which he has no skill ranks as having as many ranks as he has Intelligence bonus. This does not gain him the +3 bonus for class skills he would get if he had actual ranks in a skill, but does allow him to make untrained checks on any skill.
Work Smarter, Not Harder - The rogue uses his smarts to improve what he's good at. The rogue gains a bonus equal to his Intelligence bonus to any skills he has ranks in that do not rely on Intelligence.
Hit Where it Hurts - The rogue may make a Perception check as a swift action against the AC of an enemy. If they succeed they may make a sneak attack as a standard action, even if the target is neither flanked nor denied it's dexterity bonus.
Placed Blow - whenever making a sneak attack, the rogue may go for accuracy over damage. Each 1d6 of sneak attack instead becomes a +1 insight bonus to both attack and damage, and the bonus damage will multiply on critical hits.
Strike with Precision - when not making a sneak attack, the rogue gains a +1 bonus to damage for each 1d6 of sneak attack they possess if they attack with a finesse weapon.
New Talents:
Slippery Mind - the rogue gains a bonus to their Will save equal to their Intelligence score, or +2, whichever is the higher.
Luck of the Bold - the rogue gains a bonus to their Fortitude save qual to their Charisma score, or +2, whichever is the higher.
Fighter
Skills - the fighter gains 4+int ranks per level, not 2.
Skills: The fighter gains Perception and Sense Motive as class skills.
Effectively Weapon Finesse, but applying to a few extra weapons. I went for Wisdom in this, because it loves more physical options open - making it dexterity makes the monk automatically dexterity & wisdom focussed, when strength builds make up a lot of existing monks.I haven't gotten a chance to playtest these fixes, but for Monk, my main fix is:
Nimble Strike: A monk may use his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier on attack rolls and damage rolls for all melee attacks with his Unarmed Strike and special Monk weapons.
True, but making Dex/Wis the monks' go-to setup means they will generally have good attack and defense, which they can struggle badly with. Making it Wis doesn't really change much, except moving (imo) into the opposite direction, since now Wis controls Attack, Defense and Ki, not to mention the Will saves, and important skill bonuses that everyone gets. My fix at least splits resources somewhat.
In addition, I'm house-ruling that monks get full BAB (still d8 HD, though), because it's simpler that way, and monks need all the help they can get.I'd like to address this, but I do not actually see it as a major issue if the monk can move-and-flurry. My preferred option on a complete rewrite would be a weapon training bonus on monk weapons/unarmed strike and just 3/4 BAB. You end up with pretty much the same bonus at the same level. However, I'm only looking at tweaks in this thread, nor re-writes.
I don't think it's too much more than a tweak. It's mostly a simplification, and it provides things like qualifying for feats earlier and makes multiclassing less of a headache (though, to be honest, I have intense dislike for MCing; it's a bad design, and I'm glad PF has discouraged it so much). To be fair, though, I don't like much of 3.x's base system mechanics, so I suppose I'm a bit more comfortable making bigger changes as "Tweaks."
For Fighters, I haven't decided my full fixes, but I know 4+Int Skills, (Stealing from Boz) The choice of Ref or Will as a second good save, replacing Bravery, and then I'm considering maybe giving a bonus to CMB that goes up with level, to keep a reasonable shot at beating enemies' CMDs, and maybe a way to buff their ability to tank. I didn't like everything about 4e, but their tanking mechanic for fighters was pretty well designed, and I think this could work into AoOs somehow.How many classes get to choose their good saves? Well none, so why start now? I agree fighters need a boost to saves, but I don't think this idea is the solution.
Also fighters are ALREADY the best at CMB, as they get to apply weapon training, weapon enhancement, weapon properties, and Weapon Focus bonuses all to CMB performed with a weapon.
There are already feats to improve AoOs to allow fighters to tie down areas.
Fine, maybe just make Will a good save. But I stand by them needing something for CMB, which may be just to improve the way it scales, because it doesn't scale well, even for fighters. And, I'm tired of that line about fighters. "There's a feat for that" The thing is, it's competing for 22 slots by level 20. And, I might be in the minority, but I think that at least by level 5, they should be decent at what they do, without having to overspecialize. With fighters, that's not the case. Maybe it's just because the class is so broad, but I feel like having a competent Bodyguard-fighter means I have to overspecialize.
Though I will admit part of this is my aforementioned dislike of the base 3.x rules. Because of the way classes and multiclassing works, you can't front-load features, to discourage class dipping, but it has the side effect of taking too long for a class to feel competent. PF helped in many aspects, but it's one of my biggest problems with 3.x.
I'm in two minds about this. I'd like for there to be options for smart fighters. That said, a feat like Furious Focus but applying to Combat Expertise would go a long way to making it less of a feat tax and more of a benefit.
Also, though not a fighter fix per se, but I've removed Combat Expertise from being a feat tax for tons of feats, which should give fighters more reasonable options.
Yeah, I think there should be a place for smart fighters, but I don't think it should be as big a requirement for as much as it is. I'd Honestly like to see a place for charismatic Fighter as well, who has more of an "active tanking" role essentially using their force of personality to appear as more of a threat than the squishy wizard they're protecting (Maybe a feat or something that lets them intimidate as a swift action vs Sense Motive or will to convince the monster to attack them). Can't think of a good similar option for smart fighters that doesn't result in the underwhelming tactician archetype.
As for rogues, I'm not sure what to do, so much. I've only really come up with a couple modifications to the Firearm Talents, the one being that Firearm Training gives the rogue Gunsmithing, as the Gunslinger feature of the same name, but the rogue can select a broken gun from: Pistol, Coat Pistol, and Dagger Pistol, and a Modification to Grit! that the rogue can use Charisma instead of Wisdom to determine her maximum Grit points.What happens if the DM is like me and hates guns in fantasy? Then your changes amount to nothing.
Well, you wouldn't allow the talents unaltered anyway. As I already mentioned, I have very little experience with rogues in PF. All I was doing is highlighting an underpowered option for what is generally accepted for an underpowered class, and what I did to raise it to snuff. I have no other real experience with rogues in PF; all I was offering was my experience.
These were from my sole experience with PF rogues, where the player didn't want to play a full-on gunslinger, but more of a rogue, so I modded those Talents. Most people I've played with who want to play a rogueish character go the Bard (usually Archaeologist) route or the Vivisection Alchemist route, depending on what they want out of the class.If you wanted to do this, multi-classing allows you to. No need to re-write one class to be like another.
I highly disagree. To me the 3.x multiclass rules are highlights of designers' inability to see flaws in their creations. Multiclass characters too often create characters who feel like they're barely qualified at either aspect, and they encourage much more munchkinism than I enjoy. Not to mention that they are limiting. Classes can't really front-load many abilities, since class dips would be rampant, but this can make classes seem incompetent at level 1, even in areas that they are supposed to be good at. I am glad Paizo finally discouraged Multiclassing as much as it did, in favor of archetypes and class options (like rage powers) for customization that doesn't generally provide as much of a power-swing as MCing does.
I still maintain that placed blow is too powerful, that a +10 Attack and damage that multiplies on crits is inherently far more powerful than a +35 damage that doesn't multiply.
So I'm gonna run some numbers on it now. Say the kukri dual wielding against CR 20 AC 42.
** spoiler omitted **As you can see it is never in your favor to ever after getting placed blow to use standard sneak attack. The +10 to attack makes that big of a difference. Standard sneak attack is coming out to less than 2/3 of placed blow damage.
I agree actually the buff would be a good idea but instead of a tax at that point you might as well swap out sneak attack for the new version. It's one I've tossed around too.
Thank you for crunching those numbers, Thomas. That does add a different perspective on things, I admit, and it's clear +10 to hit is WAY too much. I thought that it would counterbalance the rogue's fewer attacks from 3/4 BAB, but it goes too far because I never factored in critical hits.
I think amending the text as follows will work better:
Placed Blow - whenever making a sneak attack, the rogue may go for accuracy over damage. Each 1d6 of sneak attack instead becomes a +1 insight bonus to damage, and the bonus damage will multiply on critical hits. Each 2d6 of sneak attack the rogue possesses becomes a +1 insight bonus to hit.
This way the bonus tops out at +5 to hit and +10 damage; enough to remove the discrepancy of 3/4 BAB, but no more.
True, but making Dex/Wis the monks' go-to setup means they will generally have good attack and defense, which they can struggle badly with. Making it Wis doesn't really change much, except moving (imo) into the opposite direction, since now Wis controls Attack, Defense and Ki, not to mention the Will saves, and important skill bonuses that everyone gets. My fix at least splits resources somewhat.
Is splitting resources on the monk, the MADest class in the game, what we want to do? You still need two maxed-out stats (and trust me, having run monks with a dex/wis focus and paying the feat-tax, it's not much of an improvement). Plus, as I said, this mucks up the backward compatibility of all the monks already out there specialising in strength.
Using Wisdom concentrates the monk's Big Stat in one place. It controls his DCs for special abilities, his ki (and lets face it, ki is a scarce resource anyway so maxing it breaks nothing), it helps his defence and it means he doesn't need a second maxed-out stat to keep up with accuracy.
I don't think it's too much more than a tweak. It's mostly a simplification, and it provides things like qualifying for feats earlier and makes multiclassing less of a headache (though, to be honest, I have intense dislike for MCing; it's a bad design, and I'm glad PF has discouraged it so much). To be fair, though, I don't like much of 3.x's base system mechanics, so I suppose I'm a bit more comfortable making bigger changes as "Tweaks."
Yeah, but the developers at Paizo are not, and I am looking for minimal changes that they will consider implementing. Let's face it, if the devs are not interested in doing it, all we're achieving here is fanning our egos.
Fine, maybe just make Will a good save. But I stand by them needing something for CMB, which may be just to improve the way it scales, because it doesn't scale well, even for fighters.
Then the problem is with the CMB/CMD mechanic, not with fighters. All you will do is highlight the problem for every other class trying to do maneuvers.
And, I'm tired of that line about fighters. "There's a feat for that" The thing is, it's competing for 22 slots by level 20. And, I might be in the minority, but I think that at least by level 5, they should be decent at what they do, without having to overspecialize. With fighters, that's not the case. Maybe it's just because the class is so broad, but I feel like having a competent Bodyguard-fighter means I have to overspecialize.
Fighters ARE competent at what they do at low level, in fact they dominate at low level. They are good at it at high level too, come to think of it. You have to accept that a specialist will be better at his specialisation than a generalist will be across the board. The fighter IS a combat specialist. That's how he works. You want a fighter that is good at X, Y, and Z, well you can build him. You want a fighter that is good at everything, well that's not going to happen, not in any system.
Though I will admit part of this is my aforementioned dislike of the base 3.x rules. Because of the way classes and multiclassing works, you can't front-load features, to discourage class dipping, but it has the side effect of taking too long for a class to feel competent. PF helped in many aspects, but it's one of my biggest problems with 3.x.
First level characters are meant to be weak, it's how the system was designed. At low level, fighters may not be able to do all the tricks they can do at high level - so what? They still do very well at low level.
Yeah, I think there should be a place for smart fighters, but I don't think it should be as big a requirement for as much as it is. I'd Honestly like to see a place for charismatic Fighter as well, who has more of an "active tanking" role essentially using their force of personality to appear as more of a threat than the squishy wizard they're protecting (Maybe a feat or something that lets them intimidate as a swift action vs Sense Motive or will to convince the monster to attack them). Can't think of a good similar option for smart fighters that doesn't result in the underwhelming tactician archetype.
I agree, but this is too big for small tweaks anyway. Let's fix what we can without writing a second edition!
Well, you wouldn't allow the talents unaltered anyway. As I already mentioned, I have very little experience with rogues in PF. All I was doing is highlighting an underpowered option for what is generally accepted for an underpowered class, and what I did to raise it to snuff. I have no other real experience with rogues in PF; all I was offering was my experience.
That's more than fair enough.
I highly disagree. To me the 3.x multiclass rules are highlights of designers' inability to see flaws in their creations. Multiclass characters too often create characters who feel like they're barely qualified at either aspect, and they encourage much more munchkinism than I enjoy.
These two statements are completely incompatible, you know that? if multi-class characters are weak, munchkins wouldn't use them. However I do see your point.
Actually, I think the designers DID see the problem here, which is why you have the Archetypes. What you need is an archetype of rogue - call him the Desperado or something - who adopts Gunslinger features the way the rogue adopted monk features to become the ninja.
Not to mention that they are limiting. Classes can't really front-load many abilities, since class dips would be rampant, but this can make classes seem incompetent at level 1, even in areas that they are supposed to be good at. I am glad Paizo finally discouraged Multiclassing as much as it did, in favor of archetypes and class options (like rage powers) for customization that doesn't generally provide as much of a power-swing as MCing does.
Well as I said, level 1 is rank beginner. How many rank beginners are truly competent? Exactly. If you want to be a skilled professional and not wet behind the ears, you start at a higher level.
Love the fighter fix. Really great.
Like the rogue talents too. Not sure on giving a talent at level 1 though - rogue is already a good dip class, IMO the best together with monk. Giving a free combat feat or some other rogue talent at 1st level seems a bit over the top.
I'd rather just give a free skill focus feat at 1st level.
Love the fighter fix. Really great.
Like the rogue talents too. Not sure on giving a talent at level 1 though - rogue is already a good dip class, IMO the best together with monk. Giving a free combat feat or some other rogue talent at 1st level seems a bit over the top.
I'd rather just give a free skill focus feat at 1st level.
I'm pretty sure that half the reason people dip monk and rogue is because pure monk and rogue, well, suck, so if you want a good character with that feel, then you dip.
The reason I'd give the rogue a talent at first level is mainly because they otherwise have to wait to 2nd to get what should be their main class features - it's like making the monk wait to 2nd level to get their unarmed strike. Indeed, the whole POINT of a talent at first level is so the rogue can take "finesse rogue" when it's actually going to be worth something to him, rather than either sucking for a level or taking the feat and losing the point of the talent.
Here's how I would do it,
Sneak Attack/combat opportunism : If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is off balanced she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target is suffering from a negative status effect (shaken,sickened,entangled etc*)or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 2 and increases by 2 every two rogue levels thereafter this damage is halved vs enemies that are immune to critical hits. The rogue also adds her int modifier as a bonus to hit off balance enemy.
You do know that one low-level spell from a cleric can fulfil that criteria on every enemy in range, no save? I'd say that's too strong, even given the rogue's relative weakness as it stands.
I would also give them a combat maneuver training rogue talent(BAB=level for maneuvers) so you end up with rogues spamming maneuvers to get their sneak attack.
I like the idea of maneuver training, I must admit. Or...allow sneak maneuvers, where a maneuver attempted in place of a sneak attack gets a +1 bonus per sneak attack dice the rogue has.
...because a bigger weapon doesn't make you more dead?
I'm coming to believe that all damage should multiple on crits, including sneak attacks, vital strike and elemental weapon damage. None of them is OP as it stands, and this is only something like +10% to the DPR of that individual property, so I can't see why not.
One notable thing is that undoubled sneak attack is pretty pathetic for Coup de Grace, which is an auto crit. So a 2nd level 12 Str rogue with a dagger might do only 2d4+1d6+2, average 10.5. woot. He'd be better off just jabbing a longspear (3d8+3=16.5) into the guy, without sneak attack.
...because a bigger weapon doesn't make you more dead?critting isn't about having a bigger weapon. critting is about hitting extra hard or in an extra sensitive spot. thus poking versus stabbing.
This it doesn't matter what you stick in it, really, which was my point.
|
I tried homebrewing some rogue talents a while back- I gotta say, I'm jealous you're getting so much more feedback than me. ;)
JOAT looks like it's just begging to create rules confusion, with its "virtual ranks". I would've just said he can use any skill untrained. Maybe a +1 insight bonus?
Between WSMH and JOAT, it looks like you're trying to push Int as a rogue's most important mental stat. Personally I like the idea that a rogue can focus on Int for bucketloads of skill points or Cha for a strong bonus to the "face" skills. It creates variety among rogue builds.
Spending a standard and a swift for one good sneak attack seems okay, but it pretty much kills the idea of rogues as TWF masters. The talents I made up basically allowed rogues to deal sneak attack under more conditions, which would support a full-attack full of sneak attacks.
Here's a question: how valuable should a rogue talent be in comparison to a trait? Would it be fair to allow a rogue to choose any trait he qualifies for in place of a rogue talent? Most traits seems to involve skills, so having more traits would (in theory) benefit a skill rogue.
Most of your other points which we disagree on, generally just come down to a difference on design philosophy, which I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. But there's one point I feel I want to clarify.
I highly disagree. To me the 3.x multiclass rules are highlights of designers' inability to see flaws in their creations. Multiclass characters too often create characters who feel like they're barely qualified at either aspect, and they encourage much more munchkinism than I enjoy.These two statements are completely incompatible, you know that? if multi-class characters are weak, munchkins wouldn't use them. However I do see your point.
Actually, I think the designers DID see the problem here, which is why you have the Archetypes. What you need is an archetype of rogue - call him the Desperado or something - who adopts Gunslinger features the way the rogue adopted monk features to become the ninja.
Perhaps I said it wrong; my point is that multiclassing creates much higher variance in power levels. This creates situations where the degree of system mastery matters much heavier in the competency of characters. People with higher system mastery can eek out more advantage out of the system, and match together combinations that are significantly more powerful than single class characters, whereas people with lower system-mastery might pick a class combination based on flavor, without giving much of a thought on how the class features either don't mesh, or perhaps actively conflict, resulting in subpar characters.
I agree that the designers did a good job with archetypes, since it decreases the variance, which in turn decreases the dependency on system mastery to create a character who is competent, but still feels like a blend of classes. However, this was mostly directed to your saying "multiclassing allows you [make what my fix did]." For me, that wouldn't be the case, since my group and I, in general, don't like that design option.
I tried homebrewing some rogue talents a while back- I gotta say, I'm jealous you're getting so much more feedback than me. ;)
JOAT looks like it's just begging to create rules confusion, with its "virtual ranks". I would've just said he can use any skill untrained. Maybe a +1 insight bonus?
How about, "use any skill untrained with an insight bonus equal to the rogue's intelligence bonus, minimum of +1"?
Between WSMH and JOAT, it looks like you're trying to push Int as a rogue's most important mental stat. Personally I like the idea that a rogue can focus on Int for bucketloads of skill points or Cha for a strong bonus to the "face" skills. It creates variety among rogue builds.
I've always considered it as such, yes. Rogues are meant to be quick-witted, smart. However, I think I'd like to throw in some talents for other mental states. Something along the lines of:
Wisdom of the Streets - you know how things work in the real world, whatever books say. You can add your wisdom bonus as an insight bonus to any Knowledge skills you have ranks in.
Do it with Style - whatever you do, you know how to do well. You can add your Charisma bonus as a competence bonus to any physical skills (those relying on Dex, Strength, or Con).
Still thinking about these, though.
Spending a standard and a swift for one good sneak attack seems okay, but it pretty much kills the idea of rogues as TWF masters. The talents I made up basically allowed rogues to deal sneak attack under more conditions, which would support a full-attack full of sneak attacks.
The TWF rogue was always struggling, to be honest: it takes too many feats, and cripples his attack bonus which is already bad enough. The idea of this talent, though, was that the rogue could manage a sneak attack without necessarily relying on Improved Feint (although you can combine this talent with a feint). The TWF rogue's concept is to get in a flanking position and max out the sneak attack damage, and this does not preclude this option - it's just there in case you can't flank and are being singled out for death.
Here's a question: how valuable should a rogue talent be in comparison to a trait? Would it be fair to allow a rogue to choose any trait he qualifies for in place of a rogue talent? Most traits seems to involve skills, so having more traits would (in theory) benefit a skill rogue.
A rogue talent should be roughly equivelant to a feat, although I know the ones I have come up with are stronger. Therefore I would say having a rogue talent that allows him to take the Estra Trait's feat would be fine.
Then my point holds true. Critting should work with sneak attack. What are we arguing over?
But it doesn't - perhaps because when you crit, it's because you hit a vital point, but with sneak attack you already did that. Either way, SA works how it works. I'm working with what is.
I agree that the designers did a good job with archetypes, since it decreases the variance, which in turn decreases the dependency on system mastery to create a character who is competent, but still feels like a blend of classes. However, this was mostly directed to your saying "multiclassing allows you [make what my fix did]." For me, that wouldn't be the case, since my group and I, in general, don't like that design option.
I did see your point - mutliclassing CAN be stronger than either class alone, or CAN be weaker. It really does depend on the level of system mastery, which is I think the same point we were both trying to make in different ways.
Thing is, that's how the system works, and changing it ruins backward compatibility, so it won't be changing.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
First thing to remember in class redesign is: don't give good stuff away with a dip.
So if you're going to give broad, hefty ability with skills away, you need to wait until level 4 at the least.
The second thing you have to figure is, what are you going to reward a rogue for? High INt or high Dex? Those are two very different builds for any kind of rogue. Historically, dex is the main stat for a rogue, and then people differ on builds for Cha or Int. People who go wisdom usually like a ranger vibe more.
Furthermore, any class without magical ability should include some form of profound anti-magical ability. I think it's utterly crazy that the fighter and rogue are the two classes most vulnerable to magic, because they've got one good save each and no general anti-magic capabilities in ANY fashion.
=======
For fighters, it's all about feats first, defenses second, and versatility third.
Feats are the class abiltiies of the fighter. name ONE feat that is the equal of Extra Rage Power.
You can't. There isn't one. Rage powers are powerful, auto-scale, and have profound effects on the user. They are awesome.
Feats for fighters have to ALL be the equal of class abilities, or they are useless. They only way you can do that is to rip down feat chains, and give them to fighters who have the starter feats. It should be ONE feat for a fighter to take the whole weapon spec tree. It should be ONE feat to take the whole step up and strike shtick. It should be ONE feat to take the Shatter defenses line of feats.
Because that's what fighters are...the masters of feats.
Weapon Training should simply add groups, not add groups at -1. They are the only class that is inferior with other then their primary weapon.
Fighters should have more defenses against magic, and the core of that is the saving throw. There is a built in scaling mechanism for the fighter for bonuses to feats in their weapon training, armor training, and bravery. If Iron Will auto-scaled with Bravery, fighters can take a feat and get a good Will save. If Lightning Reflexes scaled with Armor training, they'd get a good Reflex save. and if Great Fort scaled with weapon training, they'd have an awesome Fort save.
Several Rage powers should exist as feats. I still can't believe they gave Robilar's Gambit to the Barbarian...
Versatility. Give them 4 skill points to reflect the fact that anyone who doesn't learn magic is going to rely on other forms of training. As masters of build flexibility, let them pick two class skills for their own list at level 1.
I would, in addition, give them an additional feat every level they did not get a combat feat, and the pool to select it from would be limited to feats that affect saves and skills. You don't need an awesome wis stat for Perception if you have Skill Focus and Alertness in it from bonus feats.
And, you know, it would be REALLY REALLY nice if Fighters were the only class that could swap feats around from a pool of their own choice. Perhaps every combat feat is TWO feats, but only one can be active at a time?
===========
For Monks, the chassis is okay, the combat rules aren't in favor.
The Monk isn't meant to be a tank, it's meant to be a highly effective skirmisher.
I like the idea above of letting the monk advance an extra 5' for every 10' of his speed bonus when full attacking. It doesn't give them power, but it gives them range that no other class would have. It's a great idea.
To combat MAD, I would call on the Monk's theme of self-perfection and give them stat bonuses...more stat bonuses then any other class. Every four levels in the monk class, give them an extra 4 stat points that all go into their LOWEST STATS. It's not a huge buff, but it insures that there will never be a monk with a dump stat, and that they will have excellent general stats when they level. At higher levels, no monk should have less then a 13-14 base stat in any ability score.
For the amulet of Mighty Fists, the cost is the same pain that TWF have always had to put up with. Because in the end they get the highest base damage weapons in the game, and the most attacks, it's balanced against that paradigm. If you want to get rid of the TWF aspect of being a monk, then yes, down tone the amulet. It does suck at lower levels, I agree...but so does TWF anywhere.
===================
For Rogues, two things.
1) Take away sneak attack from any other class. It's a Rogue thing, keep it a rogue thing. Ditto trap spotter. Indiana Jones was a rogue, not an archeologist bard.
2) You really have to make them the master of skills. The ability of the bard to layer skills into his Performance skill is just wrong.
A Rogue should be an Expert+.
Talents should be full class abilities, not feat alternates, i.e. half-strength class abilities. So Talents need to be overhauled.
Skills: All skills are class skills for a rogue. That's right, let them pick anything. After all Experts get to pick their own list, and Rogues are Experts on roids.
A Rogue Talent may choose to use Str or Dex, or Int or Cha, for any particular skill that requires the other stat. You could build a completely viable Cha or Int rogue that way, and it subsumes all them silly feats that let you use this stat for that skill, which are hugely underpowered.
A Talent that would let them treat any skill as trained should be later level, but an excellent skill. Just being able to take 10 on any Knowledge check and assist anyone at anything should be useful.
Rogues should be able to expand evasion to any and all of their magic saves, if they choose to keep on the no-magic route. Magic just all slide off them, not just the fireballs.
To keep the Dex focus, a Talent that lets them deal dex to damage while using a finesse weapon if they are NOT dealing sneak attack damage would insure they did decent damage at all times. In effect, it would be 'stepped down' sneak attack damage. A simpler method might simply be to co-opt the duelist and let them deal +int damage when using a finesse weapon, instead, or simply minimum SA damage (i.e. deal +5 or +5d6 damage, the latter if they qualify for SA). Stacking extra damage on top of SA seems to not be neccessary...its when they are not SA'ing that we have to work on their relevance.
And giving them a skill or skill focused based feat every level they don't gain an SA bonus would keep them ahead of every class as far as breadth and depth of skill points. It would match the fighter fix some, but the rogue has so many more skills, and Talents to supplement skill choices, that this isn't out of line.
===
As a kicker to all this, one other thing...level one profs and stuff should never, ever be given away. So someone picking up a level of fighter shouldn't gain all martial profs after level 1, etc. You need to value gifts at level 1 to make them have teeth. The same way you don't give out maximum hit points at level 2, you shouldn't give away armor and weapon profs.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, here's a simpler idea on skills for a rogue, and it's easier to track.
A Rogue gains a +1 competence bonus to 1 skill for every +SA dice they have.
Thus, if they have 5d6 SA, they have a +5 Competence bonus to 5 skills of their choice. 10 d6, +10 to 10 different skills!
This gives them a good scaling bonus that eventually minimizes the need for skill boosting potions and stuff. What other characters have to buff to do, the rogue gets simply because they are that damn awesome, yet it doesn't exceed the power of what magic can do.
I think I like that better then extra skill feats.
==Aelryinth
there is some cool ideas here.
There are a lot of great ideas floating around in this thread.
How so?These are terribly underused and often weak. I would recommend that rogue's firstly gain an extra talent at first level, as well.Hmm. Not sure, might work; would probably have to be from a limited feat pool.
Sorry, misread this as bonus feat. Bonus Talent would be fine at 1st level.
This allows the rogue to sneak attack, as a standard action, something he wouldn't otherwise be able to. It makes the class feature more universally useful, rather than being so situational.Hit Where it Hurts - The rogue may make a Perception check as a swift action against the AC of an enemy. If they succeed they may make a sneak attack as a standard action, even if the target is neither flanked nor denied it's dexterity bonus.Don't like this one. On the surface it looks good, but it turns their main combat ability from something that needs careful thought and preparation to achieve to something that requires a skill check. It "Dumbs down" the class. That might work for the BSF, but not the rogue.
A situational ability requires thought to use, a universal ability does not. Guess which one is more in line with a character that lives by his wits?
I am in favour of giving the Rogue more situational abilities so that he can engineer a situation in which one of them would be useful. I know you will say that this requires a complete rewrite of the Rogue class, which was not your aim; fair enough, but i still want it even if I can't have it.
I fail to see how it adds to maneuvers at all - it's a bonus to some skills and to Will saves. That's it.Not sure. This can make the fighter extremely adept at maneouvres. While a maneouvre build should be possible, I don't think it should be generic. the bonus to Will saves would be welcome. Adding perception, acrobatics and healing to class skills would be fine.Ideas for Fighter Fixes
The fighter needs a few adjustments to his class features, and I would suggest doing as follows:Discipline - replaces Bravery, Discipline is a bonus to Will saves across the board, not just to fear effects. Also adds to physical (strength and dexterity based, to represent athleticism) and Craft (weapons)/Craft (armour) skills (have to maintain equipment!) that the fighter has ranks in.
I was referring to the bonus to acrobatics specifically. Not every fighter should be an acrobatics master, just those who want to pursue an acrobatics style.(As in swashbuckling).
Skills - the fighter gains 4+int ranks per level, not 2.This would be definite no for me. Fighters are not supposed to have skills - they fight. The problem is that extra feats do not make up for the power of smite, favoured enemy or rage (and rangers and paladins have spells, too!) especially at higher levels. Extra skills would not make up for it either, and would be taking the fighter out of his main area (fighting). What the fighter needs is some boost at higher levels. perhaps tactician (for INT fighters) or Leadership (for CHA Fighters) or inspirational (For WIS Fighters) - though this may make them MAD. Needn't be huge, but enough to give the Fighter an edge. perhaps via new feats so it can be bought from their bonus feats (and probably requiring BAB 16+ so only martial characters can get them).I hear what you're saying, but the big issues for fighters is not their ability to hurt people. It's their strong focus on one thing. On the flip side a couple of people have mentioned that they don't like more skills on fighters. Perhaps more class skills, and some boosts to some skills.
The kinds of changes you are proposing are, however, something for a complete re-write of the class, something I am specifically looking to avoid.
@annoying Orange
Your changes are interesting, but focus on making the fighter better at fighting rather than giving him more breadth. He doesn't need to be better at fighting, so far as I can see, he needs to do Other Stuff.
...
Actually I would disagree. By about 8th level, A Fighter has all the major Feats he needs for his fighting style and can look forward mainly to level restricted stuff for major boosts, but the same is true for all Martial classes by this point. The difference is, the Barbarian has rage, the Paladin has Smite, mercies and Spells, The Ranger has favoured enemy, Skills and spells So now the fighter is falling behind in combat terms. What can he get that another martial class cannot get? nothing. That's why he needs a boost in combat.
According to their description, "Fighters excel at combat—defeating their enemies, controlling the flow of battle, and surviving such sorties themselves. While their specific weapons and methods grant them a wide variety of tactics, few can match fighters for sheer battle prowess."
Now they need to live up to it.
Not yet sure how this needs to be fixed, but I am leaning towards some kind of point pool system which would enable them to get some combat orientated abilities. Don't know if it should be a Hero Pool, a Tactical pool, a Leadership pool, an Inspirational pool or something else. Suggestions as to what abilities can go in the pool would be welcome too.
Again, you will say this requires a complete re-write. I think I must have masocistic tendencies, to continually yearn for what I cannot have.
I just had a thought for something for the rogue. Not sure if this would be better as an archetype or just added on to the rogue itself (Again, only ever seen 1 rogue in pathfinder, so I'm not the most knowledgeable on how to make it better), but here's my thought:
Underhanded Tactics: At second level, a rogue gains the Improved Dirty Fighting feat, even if she does not qualify for the prerequisites. In addition, if she is flanking the target, or the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the condition lasts an extra round, and removing the condition requires the target to take a standard action.
[Not so sure about the last part, but I feel like it should be a feasible option even when the rogue could use a sneak attack]
Improved Underhanded Tactics: At 8th level, a rogue gains the Greater Dirty Fighting feat, even if she does not qualify for the prerequisites. In addition, if she is flanking the target, or the target is denied it's Dexterity bonus to AC, the rogue deals 1 damage to the target for each d6 of sneak attack damage she has, and removing the condition requires the target to spend a Full-round action.
[Similar to above, I wanted it to be feasible, even when a rogue could sneak attack]
I know this doesn't provide anything to ranged rogues, which is why I'm thinking it might be better as an archetype, but I think this is very flavorful for rogues, and makes the class a lot more interesting, since you now have the choice between damage and debuffing.
First thing to remember in class redesign is: don't give good stuff away with a dip.
So if you're going to give broad, hefty ability with skills away, you need to wait until level 4 at the least.
Good point, but a minimum level on the talents that do this will suffice.
The second thing you have to figure is, what are you going to reward a rogue for? High INt or high Dex? Those are two very different builds for any kind of rogue. Historically, dex is the main stat for a rogue, and then people differ on builds for Cha or Int. People who go wisdom usually like a ranger vibe more.
This is why I was looking at talents to get boosts from Charisma, and even Wisdom, as well as Intelligence.
Furthermore, any class without magical ability should include some form of profound anti-magical ability. I think it's utterly crazy that the fighter and rogue are the two classes most vulnerable to magic, because they've got one good save each and no general anti-magic capabilities in ANY fashion.
That is a VERY good point. Then again, logically if such a person is an arcane foil, this would effect buffs and heals cast on them as well. I have no problem with a feat something like this:
You are a magical 'dead spot' in the world, a person on whom the effect of magic is muted and inconsistent.
Prerequisites: The character must have no magical, supernatural, psychic or other non-natural abilities whatsoever. Once they have taken this feat, they may not gain any such, or if they do this feat simply ceases to function. They may not select another feat in it's stead if they do this.
Benefit: The character gains a +2 bonus to saves against magical spells, spell-like-abilities, supernatural abilities etc. Any effects that do succeed do so at a reduced impact, taking a -1 penalty to duration, damage per die, or other effect. This penalty applies to beneficial effects as well as detrimental ones. For example, a 5th level bull's strength spell would only last for four minutes (five minus one) and only boost strength by three points (four minus one). Similarly a 3rd level cure moderate wounds spell would only cure 2d8+1 hit points.
{stuff about fighters}
Fighters are good enough at fighting as it is. The problem lies with their poor saves and their terrible skills/out of combat utility.
{stuff about monks}
The chasis is not OK, it's the MAD that helps kill it. Others have suggested the additional bonus points to stats for the monk. I don't disagree, but I think that's too big a change and there are other ways of fixing the problem. As for the AoMF, it's not the price that's an issue now, it's the +5 cap on enhancements + abilities.
1) Take away sneak attack from any other class. It's a Rogue thing, keep it a rogue thing. Ditto trap spotter. Indiana Jones was a rogue, not an archeologist bard.
Problem is, that's making changes in OTHER classes, and it's already been done.
2) You really have to make them the master of skills. The ability of the bard to layer skills into his Performance skill is just wrong.
...but it's there, and we have to live with it. I confess I REALLY like your idea of making any skill a class skill for the rogue, although I'd probably make that a talent rather than a blanket feature. The same with the saves and dex-to-damage.
As a kicker to all this, one other thing...level one profs and stuff should never, ever be given away. So someone picking up a level of fighter shouldn't gain all martial profs after level 1, etc. You need to value gifts at level 1 to make them have teeth. The same way you don't give out maximum hit points at level 2, you shouldn't give away armor and weapon profs.
I've never seen this as an issue myself.
Oh, here's a simpler idea on skills for a rogue, and it's easier to track.
A Rogue gains a +1 competence bonus to 1 skill for every +SA dice they have.
Thus, if they have 5d6 SA, they have a +5 Competence bonus to 5 skills of their choice. 10 d6, +10 to 10 different skills!This gives them a good scaling bonus that eventually minimizes the need for skill boosting potions and stuff. What other characters have to buff to do, the rogue gets simply because they are that damn awesome, yet it doesn't exceed the power of what magic can do.
I think I like that better then extra skill feats.
I do too - that's a good one. That said I would make it +1 per two levels of rogue, and not link it to sneak attack. I'd also 'scale' it, so they get +1 to a skill, then +1 to two skills, etc. So they can have up to +10 on one skill, +9 on a second skill, etc.
However...this is too strong for a rogue talent, and the reason I am 'fixing' the rogue through rogue talents is that it has no effect on existing rogues. So it doesn't effect rogues as they already are, and no re-design of existing rogues in APs and adventures is necessary.