RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I've been pondering the idea of starting up a new home campaign, but if I do so, I'd really like Combat Expertise to be different. I feel like a feat named "Combat Expertise" that has an INT prereq should be something that enables intelligent martials to have an edge in combat that dumb brutes don't have. Almost as though they were experts... in combat... like they possess some sort of "combat expertise"...
A more efficient form of Fighting Defensively just doesn't give me that vibe.
Here are two different ideas, and I'd like feedback on their appeal, power level, balance, etc.
Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus to attack rolls and weapon damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum bonus equal to your intelligence bonus. The bonus damage granted by this feat is precision damage.
Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: For purposes of feats with a base attack bonus and/or fighter level prerequisite, you may reduce those prerequisites by an amount equal to your intelligence bonus, down to a minimum of zero. (This means that if your intelligence bonus is equal to or greater than a fighter level prerequisite, you do not need to possess any fighter levels to take that feat.)
Thoughts?
|
|
First version: No one will ever take Power Attack ever again. You're making it significantly easier to hit, deal damage, and made it stackable with weapon schools. It seems much too overpowered (especially for, say, a Duelist! Yipes!) and incredibly appealing, as it has no real drawbacks - especially since it will stack with Power Attack for some massive damage-dealing capabilities.
Second version: Much more interesting. By 3rd level, a Human wizard with 18 Int could have weapon specialization before the fighter in the party? Is that fair? How would a transmuter build wreak this? What about a magus?
For the second version, I would instead phrase it in a way like Defensive Combat Training, where it allows you to use your Int modifier to increase your effective fighter level to a maximum of your hit dice. Does that make sense?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
First off, I do agree that combat expertise should be different..
It is my belief that CE is taken primarily as a prereq for other things, namely combat maneuver feats. What if it increased AC against AoOs provoked when performing them as a passive ability?
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
First version: No one will ever take Power Attack ever again. You're making it significantly easier to hit, deal damage, and made it stackable with weapon schools. It seems much too overpowered (especially for, say, a Duelist! Yipes!) and incredibly appealing, as it has no real drawbacks - especially since it will stack with Power Attack for some massive damage-dealing capabilities.
Having the bonus to attack/damage never exceed your INT bonus isn't a "real drawback"? The stats I usually see on users of Power Attack would seem to disagree with you there.
I like jelloarm's suggestion, though with one caveat. If you have more than 3 levels in fighter, you intstead gain the benefit of your second example. Essentially giving smart fighters a bypass, and encouraging playing a fighter that doesn't dump Intelligence. also keep it a combat feat.
First version: No one will ever take Power Attack ever again. You're making it significantly easier to hit, deal damage, and made it stackable with weapon schools. It seems much too overpowered (especially for, say, a Duelist! Yipes!) and incredibly appealing, as it has no real drawbacks - especially since it will stack with Power Attack for some massive damage-dealing capabilities.Having the bonus to attack/damage never exceed your INT bonus isn't a "real drawback"? The stats I usually see on users of Power Attack would seem to disagree with you there.
honestly i would like to that as Improved Combat expertise.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with Combat Expertise isn't limited to Combat Expertise.
Undesirable stepping-stone feats would just collect dust if they weren't pre-reqs for better things.
This inspired the following passage from my house rules doc:
For feats, classes, and class abilties that have undesirable pre-requisites, check with me to see if the pre-requisite can be waived. Generally speaking, if a feat (or other thing) has a pre-req that is not mechanically linked then I will replace it with a minimum-level requirement, plus whatever logical requirements the pre-req feats had.
For example: Improved Disarm has a mechanical link to Greater Disarm, in that they both confer a bonus to the same action. Combat Expertise has no mechanical link to Greater Disarm, and in fact the use of Combat Expertise inhibits effective use of the disarm maneuver. Combat Expertise would be waived as a pre-requisite for Greater Disarm, but you would still need Improved Disarm.
That surgically removes not only combat expertise, but all undesirable stepping-stone feat taxes.
For the first one, I would suggest a scaling +1 to hit and AC at a -2 dmg penalty minimum 1. I would take this with power attack on a 2hw... Or as a rogue.
Second one, I would let you count as 1/2 fighter lvl.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think some folks are making some incorrect assumptions about my goal here. It has nothing to do with CE's role as a prereq (undesirable or not) for other feats. My goal is to give it an effect that matches its name, and also gives a mechanical incentive for playing a martial PC with a high INT score. Currently, intelligence is completely divorced from combat; if it's not your casting stat, it only gets you languages and skills. I'd like there to be something that smart PCs can have that dumb ones can't, and a feat called "Combat Expertise" feels like it should be filling that role.
That's the goal. Nothing to do with fixing feat chain issues.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In that case, why not have characters with the ComEx feat ignore the AoO from any maneuver as long as the maneuver succeeds?
That's worth the Int 13+ and it seques nicely into the other maneuver feats.
My idea nets you +1 to hit dmg and AC that scales with bab if combined with power attack and a 2hw. 2 feat tax, maybe too much gained from it?
|
|
First version: No one will ever take Power Attack ever again. You're making it significantly easier to hit, deal damage, and made it stackable with weapon schools. It seems much too overpowered (especially for, say, a Duelist! Yipes!) and incredibly appealing, as it has no real drawbacks - especially since it will stack with Power Attack for some massive damage-dealing capabilities.Having the bonus to attack/damage never exceed your INT bonus isn't a "real drawback"? The stats I usually see on users of Power Attack would seem to disagree with you there.
I just feel that having it as an always-on static bonus puts it well over the power level of current feats, such as power attack. You make an 18-dex, 16-int dervish fighter (very doable on a 20-point buy), you take Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance and Weapon Focus... with the original first model, you are looking at a mundane scimitar attacking at +11 doing 1d6+6 at fourth level. If he's a human, toss in Weapon Specialization for an extra +2. Plus, let's be honest, you can probably afford a magic weapon. So that gives us +1 scimitar hitting at +12 doing 1d6+9 damage - on an 18-20 crit range. Hitting at almost triple your HD by 4th level seems a little overzealous.
The payoff of losing damage makes some sense to me - pinprick them to death? Even just making it a static bonus to hit in my scenario above is leaving you doing 1d6+7, before you even get the weapon bonuses from being a fighter at 5th level. I know this isn't crazy crazy damage as far as broken builds go (looking at you, archers), but it seems like a lot of pluses for one feat.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What about having it allow you to use your Int instead of your strength on combat manuevers? Keeps scale with a known feet (agile manuevers), is appealing to multiple classes (Wizard: "Disruptive this!"), and encourages players to play as smart as their characters are by giving them greater options. I also like the 'ignore AoOs on successful manuevers' idea, but might make it just for the 'smart' manuevers - disarms, steals, etc.
What about having it allow you to use your Int instead of your strength on combat manuevers? Keeps scale with a known feet (agile manuevers), is appealing to multiple classes (Wizard: "Disruptive this!"), and encourages players to play as smart as their characters are by giving them greater options. I also like the 'ignore AoOs on successful manuevers' idea, but might make it just for the 'smart' manuevers - disarms, steals, etc.
+1!
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I just feel that having it as an always-on static bonus puts it well over the power level of current feats, such as power attack. You make an 18-dex, 16-int dervish fighter (very doable on a 20-point buy), you take Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance and Weapon Focus... with the original first model, you are looking at a mundane scimitar attacking at +11 doing 1d6+6 at fourth level. If he's a human, toss in Weapon Specialization for an extra +2. Plus, let's be honest, you can probably afford a magic weapon. So that gives us +1 scimitar hitting at +12 doing 1d6+9 damage - on an 18-20 crit range. Hitting at almost triple your HD by 4th level seems a little overzealous.
So if someone starts with an 18 and a 16, and takes 5 feats (Finesse, Dervish, WFocus, WSpec, my version of CE), then with a +1 weapon he's at +12 for 1d6+9/18-20.
For comparison, a nodachi guy with an 18 (doesn't need the separate 16), 3 feats (WFocus, WSpec and Power Attack) and a +1 weapon is attacking at +8 for 1d10+15/18-20. For half the stat cost and 2 fewer feats, that doesn't really look like an imbalance to me. More like with enough additional investment, the smart guy can almost catch up to the norm.
I suspect the real problem might be blending the two: 2HPA+CE for uber damage. Maybe if I restricted it to attacks with light and one-handed melee weapons? Then I get to throw a bone to TWF and sword-and-board guys too. That might be worth considering...
Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus to attack rolls and weapon damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum bonus equal to your intelligence bonus. The bonus damage granted by this feat is precision damage.
Way too powerful. Since you didn't say "melee weapon attacks", this is a feat that would be taken by all archers to make them even more powerful. They'd just stack Dex, Int, and then Str, resulting in obnoxious builds at high level. No thanks.
If you changed it to melee attacks only and made it affect damage only (minimum +1 insight damage), I might like that. I wouldn't want it stacking with power attack.
I also have a problem with Combat Expertise, but my problem is that the classes that would cinematically use the Combat Maneuvers under it are already feat taxed. In addition, I don't really like the Int prerequisite in order to use a lot of combat maneuvers. What does Int have to do with Dirty Trick and kicking someone in the nuts? Nothing imo. So I've removed it as a prerequisite altogether. Maybe I'll add it back if Combat Expertise becomes better.
I'd just rename Combat Expertise to 'Parry' or something.
The 3.5 Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike gave them INT bonus to damage with Light and Finesse weapons, you could probably use that as a basis for an altered CE.
Maybe INT bonus to damage with light or one handed weapons wielded in one hand?
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Hmm...
Okay, what about this version?
Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls made with light or one-handed melee weapons wielded in one hand. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum bonus equal to your intelligence bonus. Unarmed strikes gain the benefit of this feat, but natural weapons do not.
The bonus damage granted by this feat is precision damage.
--------------------
Type of PCs this helps:
• Sword and board
• TWF
• Sword and free hand
• Finesse builds
Types of PCs this DOESN'T help:
• Two-handed beefcakes
• Archers
• "Natural attacks lolz"-style alchemists
• Eidolons
Thoughts?
Hmm...
Okay, what about this version?
Thoughts?
Personally, I think a scaling bonus to both damage and attack rolls is a bit too much for one feat, relative to similar feats.
I'd suggest maybe giving the character the choice to use the bonus for either attack or damage rolls (chosen at the time of the attack), but not both at once.
The first version is simply too good (compare to weapon focus). If the build points are available for use on Int, everyone will take it. If not, sucks to be you. Paladins and monks need not apply.
The second is OK, but doesn't really belong in featland because it doesn't do anything at all by itself.
In both cases, what breaks it most is scaling by Int. If all you want is something to denote expertise in combat with an Int prerequisite, it need not scale.
Otherwise, it's a matter of defining what you mean by expertise: general competence and experience? knowledge of a specific technique? hidden secrets of the mystic eastern masters?
As someone who's always wanted to play an effective high-int fighter, I support this idea :)
You could perhaps split it into two feats: one for +atk and one for +damage. Or, limiting them to a simple +1 could be worth it. You could add a "greater" combat expertise to make it +2. That seems in line with other feats. Make them require int 13+ and 15+ or so.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Alright, what about this?
Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus either to armor class or on attack rolls made with light or one-handed melee weapons wielded in one hand (including unarmed strikes, but not natural weapons), decided each round as a free action at the start of your turn.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum bonus equal to your intelligence bonus. As long as the bonus granted by this feat is +2 or more, you may divide the bonus between armor class and attack rolls as you choose.
--------------------
Are we getting closer to something reasonable now?
Alright, what about this?
Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus either to armor class or on attack rolls made with light or one-handed melee weapons wielded in one hand (including unarmed strikes, but not natural weapons), decided each round as a free action at the start of your turn.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum bonus equal to your intelligence bonus. As long as the bonus granted by this feat is +2 or more, you may divide the bonus between armor class and attack rolls as you choose.--------------------
Are we getting closer to something reasonable now?
Looks pretty solid to me. You might need to add in that the bonus doesn't apply when flat-footed.
I think it's more reasonable (if that's what you want to do, buff classes that can use it), but it seems too powerful having a scaling +1 to hit/dodge as a feat. Power Attack has scaling damage (with a penalty) and it's powerful, +1 scaling to hit or AC is much better.
I just think it should be a static +1 hit/dodge or perhaps +1 scaling damage, which is more in line with other feats.
But it's your campaign, you know what's best.
One of my favorite 3.5-to-Pathfinder changes was the modification of Dodge to remove the "declare dodge versus one opponent" mechanic in favor of making it a flat +1 dodge bonus. Doing that simplified combat. You no longer have to track one AC for one opponent, and a different AC for all other opponnents, nor do you have to take the time to figure out which opponent you're dodging this round.
So I dislike the "choose as a free action at the beginning of your turn" mechanic in the latest revision, purely because it complicates the process of managing my turn.
Making the feat give bonuses to attack and damage is okay, but seems like a lukewarm mechanical realization of the stated goal of making "combat expertise" live up to its name.
So how about something like this?
------------------------
Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus to your CMB and CMD. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum bonus equal to your intelligence bonus.------------------------
That accomplishes several things:
1) It encourages combat maneuvers. An intelligent fighter knows that there is more to fighting than just "I walk up to the Big Bad and stand there full attacking until he's dead." The course of a difficult fight can be turned by a well-timed disarm, trip, bull rush, or other maneuver. More combat maneuvers is likely to lead to more dynamic combats, which are just generally more interesting than toe-to-toe slugfests.
2) It simultaneously addresses offense (CMB) and defense (CMD) without requiring a choice between the two at the beginning of a round, but also not granting a flat bonus to AC or all attacks. An intelligent fighter knows that combat is as much a head game as anything else -- all about anticipating the enemy's moves (CMD) while concealing your own intent until it's too late (CMB).
3) It ties Combat Expertise thematically and mechanically to the "Improved Combat Maneuver X"...
I have a barbarian/fighter who'd like to thank you : )
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Okay, next iteration:
Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus on attack rolls with light or one-handed melee weapons wielded in one hand (including unarmed strikes, but not natural weapons).
And then maybe add a follow-up feat:
Improved Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 15, Combat Expertise, BAB +6
Benefit: The bonus granted by Combat Expertise becomes equal to your Intelligence bonus.
Okay, next iteration:
Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus on attack rolls with light or one-handed melee weapons wielded in one hand (including unarmed strikes, but not natural weapons).And then maybe add a follow-up feat:
Improved Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 15, Combat Expertise, BAB +6
Benefit: The bonus granted by Combat Expertise becomes equal to your Intelligence bonus.
1st, basically a greater weapon focus, I don't see the need, martials already hit well enough.
2nd, a huge buff for wizards and magi..
Maybe something like :
Combat Expertise
prerequisite : int 13
benefit:
You get a +2 bonus to CMB when attempting a combat maneuver, your CMD increases by an additional +2 when fighting defensively.
Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus to your CMB and CMD. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum bonus equal to your intelligence bonus.
+1, best so far.
Another vote.
This inspired the following passage from my house rules doc:
I'm a little late, but I don't suppose you've uploaded said houserules anywhere online?
Also a huge +1 to the CMB and CMD boost while I'm dropping in.
+1, best so far.Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus to your CMB and CMD. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum bonus equal to your intelligence bonus.
Scaling bonus seems a terrible idea, good as a class feature terrible as a feat. A +5% or +10% chance to complete a maneuver does not need to go up per level.
Two identical fighters except for this feat, fighter A has a 40% to disarm his 'twin' before taking the feat.
45% with a +1, at 4th it will be 50%, then 55% at 8th, then 60% at 12th, the other fighter has picked iron will and sees his chance to disarm his twin decrease dramatically 35% at 1st, 30% at 4th, 25% at 8th, 20% at 12th.
So by 12th lvl the chance to disarm has increased by 50% and the chance to be disarmed decreased by 50% fighter A is three times as likely to disarm, trip or grapple his twin than the other way around, it seems too much to me.
+1, best so far.Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus to your CMB and CMD. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum bonus equal to your intelligence bonus.
Scaling bonus seems a terrible idea, good as a class feature terrible as a feat. A +5% or +10% chance to complete a maneuver does not need to go up per level.
Two identical fighters except for this feat, fighter A has a 40% to disarm his 'twin' before taking the feat.
45% with a +1, at 4th it will be 50%, then 55% at 8th, then 60% at 12th, the other fighter has picked iron will and sees his chance to disarm his twin decrease dramatically 35% at 1st, 30% at 4th, 25% at 8th, 20% at 12th.
So by 12th lvl the chance to disarm has increased by 50% and the chance to be disarmed decreased by 50% fighter A is three times as likely to disarm, trip or grapple his twin than the other way around, it seems too much to me.
One thing I could see is providing a scaling bonus to CMB, but not to CMD. Based on the way CMDs scale vs CMB, the bonus to CMB up to the Int mod can give the fighter a decent chance to keep up with the CMD of opponents.
One thing I could see is providing a scaling bonus to CMB, but not to CMD. Based on the way CMDs scale vs CMB, the bonus to CMB up to the Int mod can give the fighter a decent chance to keep up with the CMD of opponents.+1, best so far.Combat Expertise
Prereq: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 insight bonus to your CMB and CMD. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum bonus equal to your intelligence bonus.
Scaling bonus seems a terrible idea, good as a class feature terrible as a feat. A +5% or +10% chance to complete a maneuver does not need to go up per level.
Two identical fighters except for this feat, fighter A has a 40% to disarm his 'twin' before taking the feat.
45% with a +1, at 4th it will be 50%, then 55% at 8th, then 60% at 12th, the other fighter has picked iron will and sees his chance to disarm his twin decrease dramatically 35% at 1st, 30% at 4th, 25% at 8th, 20% at 12th.
So by 12th lvl the chance to disarm has increased by 50% and the chance to be disarmed decreased by 50% fighter A is three times as likely to disarm, trip or grapple his twin than the other way around, it seems too much to me.
I can see that, somewhat, but the real issue with the bad scaling is the exotic nature of many of your opponents that are hard to trip or disarm, tend to be bigger and have high ability scores, the CMD of the PCs do not necessarily get that high.
Even so I think it is better to have the more specialized feats like improved or greater disarm scale rather than combat expertise.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
i vote for a liberated cross between Tinalles and Evil Lincoln's ideas.
Combat Expertise: (Alternate)
Prerequisites: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your CMB and CMD. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1. With this feat, when you make a combat maneuver check, you only provoke an attack of opportunity on a failed check.
now it feeds directly into the other maneuver feats and isn't broken by the archer/two-hander/natural-attacker.
i could see a rogue taking this. even at 3/4 BAB.
maybe even:
Improved Combat Expertise:
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, INT 15
Benefit: You may add your INT bonus to your CMB and CMD. With this feat, when you make a combat maneuver check, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity.
eh?
i vote for a liberated cross between Tinalles and Evil Lincoln's ideas.
Combat Expertise: (Alternate)
Prerequisites: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your CMB and CMD. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1. With this feat, when you make a combat maneuver check, you only provoke an attack of opportunity on a failed check.now it feeds directly into the other maneuver feats and isn't broken by the archer/two-hander/natural-attacker.
i could see a rogue taking this. even at 3/4 BAB.
maybe even:
Improved Combat Expertise:
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, INT 15
Benefit: You may add your INT bonus to your CMB and CMD. With this feat, when you make a combat maneuver check, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity.eh?
I like it. I'm trying to develop a small, consolidated list of versatile feats such as this, toughness, power attack that encourage jack-of-all-trades types of fighters. I'd actually be interested in replacing the entire "Improved/Greater Manuever" line with this set of feats, which leaves the problem of what to do with the additional benefits those feats provide.
Incorporating the bonuses from these feats would be insignificant in some cases (say, Sunder) and overpowering in others (Dirty Trick, though I can always give Dirty Trick the axe). How would I balance this? Any thoughts?
My group has recently been working on our own CE fix, this is what I have so far. First Power Attack and CE gain the line:
- For any Improved ____ maneuver feat this feat is a prerequisite for, you only provoke an AoO on a failure when performing that maneuver.
This means a Trip monkey will try disarming a bit more often.
Combat Expertise is a defensive feat, and I took that to heart when designing it. I also wanted to incorporate intelligence into the mix, so CE got this added to it:
- A player fighting defensively reduces the attack penalty by their intelligence modifier (minimum 0). They also receive a Dodge bonus equal to their intelligence modifier to their AC and CMD against attacks of opportunity caused by maneuvers.
The second line is the one that I really liked, since it provides protection when you fail a maneuver as well as when someone has Greater BR, Drag, Trip, etc.
Though on second thought, I like Twigs newest version. I would just apply it to feint attempts as well.
|
|
I like it. I'm trying to develop a small, consolidated list of versatile feats such as this, toughness, power attack that encourage jack-of-all-trades types of fighters. I'd actually be interested in replacing the entire "Improved/Greater Manuever" line with this set of feats, which leaves the problem of what to do with the additional benefits those feats provide.Incorporating the bonuses from these feats would be insignificant in some cases (say, Sunder) and overpowering in others (Dirty Trick, though I can always give Dirty Trick the axe). How would I balance this? Any thoughts?
i would keep the Improved/Greater line. taking a feat in my proposed alternate Combat Expertise is a horizontal improvement, taking an Improved/Greater line feat is a vertical one. if a character takes both Combat Expertise and say Improved Disarm, they get a total +3 to make their disarm check (at low BAB). If they later take Greater Disarm (at BAB 6+), they will be +6 to make their disarm check, and get to knock the weapon away. they will have, however, invested 2-3 feats in a single maneuver, with only one of those feats having any kind of versatility outside of attempting that maneuver. this is hardly overpowering, since attempting to disarm will not be a wise or viable tactic in every single encounter. i think it is fair to say that Power Attack is still comparatively a much more useful (or overpowering) feat. i would further extend that argument for any single maneuver, and for the Improved/Greater feats that bolster those maneuvers.
but Twigs, if i were to consolidate the maneuver feats, i might set them all to scale with BAB, and have the 'greater' effect trigger by a CMB roll that overwhelms the CMD roll by 5+ or 10+, in addition to negating the opportunity attack. examples:
Improved Disarm (Alternate)
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a disarm combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +1 bonus to your CMB and CMD for all disarm maneuver checks. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, this bonus increases by +1. Finally, with this feat, for every 5 by which beat your foe's CMD, you knock their weapon 5 feat in a random direction.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a disarm combat maneuver, and if you succeed the opponent's weapon drops at their feet.
this leaves the quetion of prerequisites, which i leave up to you.
you also might need a trump card:
Improved Combat Reflexes:
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes
Benefit: You always get to make an attack of opportunity before your opponent attempts to perform a combat maneuver against you. As normal, if this attack hits, the opponent takes a penalty to their CMB equal to the damage they sustain from the attack.
Special: This works against foes even if they have one or more feats which would otherwise circumvent your ability to make an attack of opportunity before they make their combat maneuver check.
finally, i would rename the old CE to "Improved Defensive Fighting" and leave it in the game. You could split the difference with it in as far as some feat chains are concerned; any maneuver-related feat-chains retain Combat Expertise (Alternate) as prerequisite, any defensive feat-chains retain old-now-renamed-to Improved Defensive Fighting as prerequisite.
so i can bring my suggestion to discuss (honestly, i'm not trying to steal anyone's thread, i'm just interested in making the feat Combat Expertise more like a real option, an less of a mandatory annoyance).
I had this idea while reading the Swashbuckler Playtest discussion, and for my surprise, i found that the parry ability of the swashbuckler could be hindered (!!!!) by the use of Combat Expertise. Well, that makes no sense to me. As a practitoner of a martial art (amateur level, truth be told), one thing that i figured out in combat training, is that when you fight defensively, you're more focused in (let's put this way) attacking your opponents' attacks, instead of your opponent itself. Which means that you're not hindering your offensive capability on purpose to be able to defend yourself, but you're directing most of your offensive capability against your opponents' attacks.
So, in short, here's my suggestion to rewrite Combat Expertise:
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on damage rolls of all your melee attacks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class (you can't use this feat with ranged or magical attacks with other range than melee touch). When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty to damage increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
I humbly look forward to see your thoughts and your oppinion about my suggestion, fellows... :)
|
This is how my group house rules it.
Combat Expertise (Combat)
You can increase your defense at the expense of your accuracy.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +2. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
EDIT: We also cut the Combat Expertise prereq and Int prereq for any Improved/Greater combat maneuver feats. It makes the core feat worthwhile for some builds as a standalone option and makes it easier on disarm/trip builds.
|
|
Ricardo Pennacchia,
i like that version (scaling damage penalty for AC bonus) - it will help 'proc' attacks especially, like sneak attack talents.
i have seen this version floating around the boards too, modeled after Mobility. i like is especially because it works whether or not you houserule that maneuvers provoke after rather than before:
Combat Expertise (alternate):
Prerequisite: INT 13
Benefit: When you perform a combat maneuver, you gain a +4 dodge bonus to your AC against any attacks of opportunity your combat maneuver provokes.
also, from Jiggy's various proposals above, i dislike the whole "...but only with a light weapon held in one hand with no buckler..." (etc) preconditions. too much. how about just explicitly prohibiting using both Combat Expertise and Power Attack at the same time?:
Combat Expertise (alternate):
Prerequisite: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your attack and damage rolls. This bonus rises by +1 for every 4 BAB you possess, to a maximum not exceeding your Intelligence bonus. The bonus to damage counts as precision damage.
Special: This feat may not be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
...
thoughts?
Rather than starting a new thread, I'll engage in some thread necromancy here. I have a different proposed solution to the Combat Expertise problem, an alternate feat. Each character can choose which one they want. The Int prerequisite is still there.
The balance is that this offers two feats' worth of benefits (Dodge *2) and one feat's worth of penalty (-Improve Initiative), making its net worth equal to one feat. Also notice that until you have acted, you do not gain Dodge bonuses, so the initiative penalty delays the bonus.
Opinions?
Combat Prudence (Combat)
Prerequisite: Intelligence 13.
Benefit: You can choose to take a -4 penalty on initiative checks. If you do, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class for the current combat.
Special: This feat counts as Combat Expertise for feat prerequisites.
PS: This thread presumes you don't like Combat Expertise. If you do like Combat Expertise, enjoy it as it is. No need to point it out here.