MDT, I'm not sure at all what you're arguing about with the travel rules.
You said traveling 8 hours required additional time beyond the 8 hours of travelling, for resting, eating, etc, thus making your 8 hours of travel take 10 hours of day time. I pointed out that there is nothing in the rules to lead to that, and that thus you made it up out of whole cloth, therefore it's not a rule. Just your house rule. I pointed out that it's just as equally valid to say the rules saying 8 hours of movement for an overland day travel could include all rest time and meal time as well. It's just as valid.
The only time sensitive stuff I pointed out was when people pointed out they were crafting and travelling at the same time, and that travelling more then 8 hours (and by extension, working more then 8 hours) starts costing you fort saves against fatigue.
And you're still ignoring every post about how you can just sleep an hour (getting 4 hours of rest) or even 2 hours (and getting a full night's sleep) before starting your crafting on the road. Again, if you're part of a group, and they want items made on the road, then they'll take you off watch duty and let you do that. Even sleeping twice a day for 2 hours (4 hours total) and working 8 or walking 8 you still have 4 hours a day for other things, like socializing, reading a good romance scroll, what have you.
Is it something you're going to do 24/7/365? No, but if you're travelling overland for 3 weeks to get to a port, or to get to a job, then you've got nothing else going and no reason not to try to get something done. Or, more likely, you're travelling 4 days to the bad guys hideout and you want to craft a couple of CLW wands and some scrolls to make sure you have enough heavy firepower in a short amount of time.
But Vincent posted above that his favorite things about 3.5 and PF is Crafting and summoners. One is the thing that powergamers says most rapidly upsets a campaign, and is the single hardest thing on a DM. The other is the class that people even on these forums agree is overpowered, and, more pointedly, sucks time and attention away from the rest of the party the worst. It is a fun class to PLAY...because you get to do so much stuff. It's a total pain to play with, and to play against.That's not exactly the kind of play style I like to encourage, you know?
==Aelryinth
Sounds like you have a major problem with a part of the rules, not this subject. Houserule crafting away. I'm actually very unhappy myself with the recent ruling that crafter feats allow 50% more wbl for starting at higher levels. But I don't get on the forums and tell other people they are having bad/wrong/fun for going with the rules as errata'd. I suggest if you want people to listen to you, you stop firing vitriol about how everyone else is ruining your game by playing their's a different way.
Overland Movement
Characters covering long distances cross-country use overland movement. Overland movement is measured in miles per hour or miles per day. A day represents 8 hours of actual travel time. For rowed watercraft, a day represents 10 hours of rowing. For a sailing ship, it represents 24 hours.Note that it just says an overland day of travel represents 8 hours of actual travel time. It doesn't say 'you are walking/running/riding for every second of the 8 hours', nor does it say 'you are travelling for 8 hours, resting and eating as appopriate'. Both interpretations are equally valid, one day of travel overland moves you X miles. I interpret that to be including resting as appropriate during the 8 hours. Nobody I know of walks like a robot for 8 hours, they walk, they slow down to a stroll, they pick up the pace, they stop along the way to smell a flower or take a breather.
I see nothing in the rules for your interpretation to be any more accurate than mine. If you have a rules quote where it says the overland travel time doesn't include appropriate actions during travel, please point them out. Otherwise, it's just your opinion, which we all know what is worth.
If it had said 8 hours of travel a day, you would be correct. However it says 8 hours of ACTUAL travel (emphasis mine). This means you are actually travelling for eight hours of the day. The period of travel is probably about 9-10 hours, including breaks, but Actual travel is only 8 hours of that. That's the only explanation I can think of for that wording.
wow.
You can't get rid of fatigue without a full night's rest. ANd you can't get a full night's rest twice in one day, mDT. The Ring does not allow you to sleep twice in one day and get all the benefits of it, just like sleeping for 16 hours isn't going to help you.
You're also willfully misinterpreting my arguments against crafting. If people can control and come to a consensus on Crafting, hey, go for it. Most people on these forums are fairly reasonable and wouldn't seek to overdo things.
But someone coming on and saying he is ENTITLED to do whatever he wants with crafting, and he will fight tooth and nail to get it, the rest of the party be damned? (his own specific example being that he'd continue crafting if the rest of the party was in a fight?).
Sorry, man, but that ENTITLEMENT rubs me all the wrong way, especially when he's shouting it out to the world that it's the way everyone should be able to play, and the GM is all at fault if they can't do it and it's be badwrongfun and you should just pick up and go if he won't let you craft, and for 1000 gp a day, regardless, too.
That's the attitude that sets me off. People who restrict themselves from abusing Crafting, who realize how imbalancing it can be, why would I have a problem with them? You're reading waay to much into my position, and I think it's because you're defensive about the topic.
As for crafting on the road, I've already said and I'll repeat it AGAIN that there are rules for crafting on the road, and people should make use of them. Generally speaking, you get half a normal day's time to work, and you get 50% of that time in production (i.e. 4 hours work, 2 hours actual production). The absolute most I see Sustenance adding to that is 4 hours, and that will still be at 50%, and I consider it very unlikely because you're going to have to roll 8 fatigue checks to get it done, and likely end up an exhausted puddle on the ground.
But people who feel they are ENTITLED to maximum crafting and take efforts to get around those rules? SOrry, I've got no support and will happily take a position against their interpretations of the rules every time.
As for vitriol, I get what I'm given, and Vincent was being incredibly patronizing. I will take up positions against people, but until they go putting words in my mouth, or get abusive, I'm generally pretty cordial about things.
When people start saying I'm all against Crafting and DM's who are are badwrongfun, that's vitriol. Strangely, they never see it on their end starting the whole exchange.
==Aelryinth
That's a big needle, Franko. Whose it for?
==Aelryinth
So, here's my question for you, Aelryinth, more or less completely independent of the crafting question.
If the Ring of Sustenance's two hours of sleep doesn't let you actually function for the other 22 hours you're awake, as you seem to be insinuating... then what's the point of the ring saying you only need two hours of rest a day?
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You can't get rid of fatigue without a full night's rest. ANd you can't get a full night's rest twice in one day, mDT. The Ring does not allow you to sleep twice in one day and get all the benefits of it, just like sleeping for 16 hours isn't going to help you.
You are making up rules again. The ring simply says that sleeping for 2 hours gives you all the rest as sleeping for 8. Nowhere does it say it only works once per day. You've obviously never done shift work. Example, shrimping. With shrimping, you most certainly do work around the clock, and sleep more than once a day. You work a four hour shift tossing out the nets, then you have a few hours off to rest/eat/sleep, then you work for 6 hours, pulling in the nets and sorting the shrimp, then you have another 4 hours where they boat is moving to a new area, nets are cleaned, meals cooked, and then you start putting the nets out again and repeat the cycle for weeks on end. It's a grueling job, but it's done because the fishing season is so short, and you have to maximize what you can get done. People would kill to get a whole 8 hours sleep in 2 hours on the boat.
From a personaly perspective, I've done major coding efforts where I coded for 10 hours, slept for 6, coded for 10 hours, coded for 6, and kept going like that for a week straight. Any ruling by you that you 'cannot sleep more than once a day' is a houserule, and quite frankly, one that is ridiculous based on reality. People sleep more than once in 24 hours all the time.
You're also willfully misinterpreting my arguments against crafting. If people can control and come to a consensus on Crafting, hey, go for it. Most people on these forums are fairly reasonable and wouldn't seek to overdo things.
I'm not willfully misinterpreting anything. I'm telling you what your posts sound like. If you don't like they way they sound, do feel free to modify what you say, but don't come on here and accuse me of lying about what you are saying.
But someone coming on and saying he is ENTITLED to do whatever he wants with crafting, and he will fight tooth and nail to get it, the rest of the party be damned? (his own specific example being that he'd continue crafting if the rest of the party was in a fight?).
Don't remember anyone saying that. I certainly didn't, so please don't conflate things someone else might say with things I've said, which you've railed at. Perhaps if you didn't mix my comments with others, you'd sound more coherent in your own responses?
Sorry, man, but that ENTITLEMENT rubs me all the wrong way, especially when he's shouting it out to the world that it's the way everyone should be able to play, and the GM is all at fault if they can't do it and it's be badwrongfun and you should just pick up and go if he won't let you craft, and for 1000 gp a day, regardless, too.
That's the attitude that sets me off. People who restrict themselves from abusing Crafting, who realize how imbalancing it can be, why would I have a problem with them? You're reading waay to much into my position, and I think it's because you're defensive about the topic.
Actually, I think crafting can absolutely break the game if it's not controlled. I simply do not like people coming on and telling other people how to play their game, or making up house rules and other requirements and saying they are RAW. If you want to say it's your opinion that it should require more and not work, that's fine, but you're saying it's RAW, and it's not.
As for crafting on the road, I've already said and I'll repeat it AGAIN that there are rules for crafting on the road, and people should make use of them. Generally speaking, you get half a normal day's time to work, and you get 50% of that time in production (i.e. 4 hours work, 2 hours actual production). The absolute most I see Sustenance adding to that is 4 hours, and that will still be at 50%, and I consider it very unlikely because you're going to have to roll 8 fatigue checks to get it done, and likely end up an exhausted puddle on the ground.
All the rules you've quoted are general rules. They specify the standard rules. There are always exceptions and interactions with other rules. You are basically taking the general crafting rules and saying 'These, these, and only these, and nothing else interacts with them'. There are feats that allow you to modify that base crafting rule, both the at home and on the road rules. But, you wish to lock everyone and everything into your way of doing things, which is what ticks me off, and you belittle and denigrate everyone that disagrees with you.
You argue the same way our congress does right now, not with logic and reason, but with insults and denigration, and yes, that pisses me off, and that's why I'm hammering you so hard. You lost any respect I had when you started spewing vitriol about people being 'entitlement' or 'cheese chasers' or all the other insults you've hurled. So, I'm happy to keep slamming back whenever you like. You want to opine the rules are the way you want? That's fine. But quit insulting everyone else, or else get used to be called out on it and argued with until they lock the thread.
MDT, You're talking about napping.
The rules specifically say what you need to do to get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep...you need to sleep/rest for 8 hours.
Nowhere does it say that you can sleep for extra time to get extra benefits. You are making that up. You'll just be sitting around, not sleeping.
Nor does the Ring say you can sleep extra time to get the benefits of more then 8 hours of extra sleep. It's nowhere in the description, and catching up on sleep is not what the rules allow. Find it. People have tried that tactic before. It's why you can't use the Ring to memorize spells twice...you can't get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep twice in one day, because you don't need to sleep 8 hours twice in one day. You just won't sleep.
Your 'shrimping' example would NEVER let a wizard recover for spells, at least without a Ring. He'd never get the 8 hours of sleep he needs. By the way, that trick for catching sleep is used all the time in the military. Guys who can fall asleep 'on command' are highly envied.
Furthermore, you're sleeping on and off because you need to sleep on and off. WIth the Ring, you wouldn't need to sleep, so you'd just sit there and do nothing, healing non-lethal fatigue damage as long as you aren't exhausted. But you'd never get the 8 hours of clear sleep neccessary to regain spells while shrimping.
=================
Proxi, the benefits of the Ring are quite clear.
You only need two hours of sleep a night, meaning the time required for you to be vulnerable is minimized. That and getting spell slots back in 2 hours is 90% of the reason it is used.
You don't need food and water, so you don't have to carry such things. that's the other 10%. No scrambling for supplies for you!
and that's it. that's all it does.
The ring doesn't help you with Fatigue. It doesn't help you with exhaustion. You can't work any harder or longer with the Ring then anyone else...you still get tired just as fast as they do. It certainly doesn't let you get the benefits of sleeping more then once a day, since you don't need to sleep.
People are reading into what the Ring allows. But not having to sleep for six hours is not the same as being able to work for six hours. The ring does not make you a construct (warforged are famous for being immune to exhaustion/fatigue and the like). People are assuming that the RIng allows them to labor away willy-nilly for those six hours, completely ignoring the fact that there is nothing in the ring that lets them do so without penalty.
Work days are cumulative, even with the ring.
And hey, I love Rings of Sustenance, but the fatigue rules are in there for a reason, and the Ring does nothing about them.
==Aelryinth
MDT, when someone starts claiming they are entitled, as Vincent certainly did (three times, if I recall), I'm going to call him on it.
And I call people who think they are Entitled cheesy. Sue me. Especially when they are of the position everyone should think that way.
When he starts blaming the DM for something he thinks he is entitled to, and not point blame at himself, I'm going to call him on it. Especially when he tries to turn it around and now everyone not thinking like him is wrong.
And when you unequivocally take the other side, ignoring what THEY are throwing out (and what you are, incidentally) I'm going to call them, and you, on it.
I specifically said several times I didn't have problems with Crafting within reason. I had problems with people abusing the system. I laid out examples of how it was abused, it was a target for abuse.
Heck, my initial post here was that the attempt to manipulate the rules was not going to work, but the full force Crafters came roaring in to unload and defend that it would, despite the fact it was rules manipulation, it was CALLED THAT by the OP, which makes it pure cheese.
BUt the superCrafters kept insisting it was absolutely going to work.
And no, it's not. And the vitriol began to fly AT ME, and you are continuing their work.
Blaming me for something I certainly didn't start isn't going to win you any points.
==Aelryinth
People are forgetting that it's supposed to be collaborative.
I don't have time to play a game that is going to cause this much heartache.
Find a dm or players that match your style.
Yeah, I agree. Crafting is one of those things that can break collaboration very quickly. Especially when dreaded 'entitlement' kicks in.
==Aelryinth
MDT, You're talking about napping.
The rules specifically say what you need to do to get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep...you need to sleep/rest for 8 hours.
Nowhere does it say that you can sleep for extra time to get extra benefits. You are making that up. You'll just be sitting around, not sleeping.
Nor does the Ring say you can sleep extra time to get the benefits of more then 8 hours of extra sleep. It's nowhere in the description, and catching up on sleep is not what the rules allow. Find it. People have tried that tactic before. It's why you can't use the Ring to memorize spells twice...you can't get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep twice in one day, because you don't need to sleep 8 hours twice in one day. You just won't sleep.
Your 'shrimping' example would NEVER let a wizard recover for spells, at least without a Ring. He'd never get the 8 hours of sleep he needs. By the way, that trick for catching sleep is used all the time in the military. Guys who can fall asleep 'on command' are highly envied.
Furthermore, you're sleeping on and off because you need to sleep on and off. WIth the Ring, you wouldn't need to sleep, so you'd just sit there and do nothing, healing non-lethal fatigue damage as long as you aren't exhausted. But you'd never get the 8 hours of clear sleep neccessary to regain spells while shrimping.
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Proxi, the benefits of the Ring are quite clear.You only need two hours of sleep a night, meaning the time required for you to be vulnerable is minimized. That and getting spell slots back in 2 hours is 90% of the reason it is used.
You don't need food and water, so you don't have to carry such things. that's the other 10%. No scrambling for supplies for you!and that's it. that's all it does.
The ring doesn't help you with Fatigue. It doesn't help you with exhaustion. You can't work any harder or longer with the Ring then anyone else...you still get tired just as fast as they do. It certainly doesn't let you get the benefits of sleeping more...
Why in the world can't you sleep more than once a day? I do it all the time in real life, and i'm not talking about naps. I'll routinely get 8+ hours of sleep, wake up and go to work for 8 hours, and then sleep another 8 to 10 hours before going to a different shift. If you can give a rules quote then that's another story, but so far it's just a house rule.
And as far as fatigue goes, strictly speaking they would have to not sleep for 24 hours before the fatigue sets in unless they do something that actually causes the fatigued condition such as a forced march.
The shrimping example above would actually work, as every time a wizard is woken up it only adds 1 hour to the total time he needs to sleep, so sleep for 4 hours, wake up and work, sleep for 5 hours and boom! Spells are ready to be stocked again.
Edit: not trying to sound upset or angry, just saying that as far as I can see there is nothing against the said actions as far as rules go. This is obviously the territory o individual GMs.
You can't sleep more then once a day because that would mean you could regain spells more then once a day.
And the rules don't allow you to do that.
There is nothing in the rules that gives you benefits for sleeping more then 8 hours a day. You don't need that sleep. You gain no additional benfit from it.
If you can find a rule that allows you to profit from extra sleep, I'll say otherwise, but you're trying to impose something on the game that simply isn't there and isn't allowed, because casters would abuse the heck out of it. Especially with Sustenance Rings.
You're creating something from a wish list that isn't there. Please do not assume it's core rules just because you want it to be.
==Aelryinth
You can't sleep more then once a day because that would mean you could regain spells more then once a day.
And the rules don't allow you to do that.
There is nothing in the rules that gives you benefits for sleeping more then 8 hours a day. You don't need that sleep. You gain no additional benfit from it.
If you can find a rule that allows you to profit from extra sleep, I'll say otherwise, but you're trying to impose something on the game that simply isn't there and isn't allowed, because casters would abuse the heck out of it. Especially with Sustenance Rings.
You're creating something from a wish list that isn't there. Please do not assume it's core rules just because you want it to be.
==Aelryinth
You actually can regain spells more than once per day if you are an Arcane caster, but any that you have cast in the last 8 hours count against your newly prepared total. It says so right in the magic section. Nowhere have I seen a rule saying that you can only sleep once per day though.
Edit: Can you please just link or quote the rules in question that state that you can't sleep more than once per day instead of accusing me (or others) of just "creating something from a wish list that isn't there". Until then, take your own advice; "Please do not assume it's core rules just because you want it to be."
Show proof, or agree that it's a grey area like I blatantly said it was in my previous post.
Here's a good example.
Preparing Wizard Spells
A wizard's level limits the number of spells he can prepare and cast. His high Intelligence score might allow him to prepare a few extra spells. He can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward his daily limit. To prepare a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level.Rest: To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.
According to this, a wizard with a ring of sustenance can sleep for 2 hours, stock spells for 1, adventure for let's say 8 hours (travel and such, let's say he cast some spells right in the middle of this time block for fairness sake) and now they stop to make camp or get supplies. If he stays awake for 2 hours shopping and what else, then sleeps for 2 more, guess what? He can restock his spells! 4 hours after casting spells, plus 2 more shopping, and the 2 spent sleeping makes 8 hours, so he can even restock all of them. Add in the 7 hours before that and you're only at 15, so you still have plenty of hours left in the day. How is any of this preventing a Wizard from getting the benefit of sleeping more than once per day?
Or is this process, which is seemingly allowed by the Core Rules, somehow illegal based on another rule that you have failed to mention?
MDT, You're talking about napping.
Actually there is a tactic used by commando teams in the military where you both sleep AND march at the same time. And no one can claim these guys are fighting at ANY sort of fatigue penalty. SO short and simple there are a lot of ways to sleep (I would require a feat or two to pull off this trick.)
You can't sleep more then once a day because that would mean you could regain spells more then once a day.
And the rules don't allow you to do that.
There is nothing in the rules that gives you benefits for sleeping more then 8 hours a day. You don't need that sleep. You gain no additional benfit from it.
If you can find a rule that allows you to profit from extra sleep, I'll say otherwise, but you're trying to impose something on the game that simply isn't there and isn't allowed, because casters would abuse the heck out of it. Especially with Sustenance Rings.
You're creating something from a wish list that isn't there. Please do not assume it's core rules just because you want it to be.
==Aelryinth
This is where you are wrong.
Emphasis mine.Preparing Wizard Spells
Rest: To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.
If you rest for 8 hours, (doesn't even require sleep) you can prep spells. Any spells you case in the previous 8 hours, count against you and you can't re-prep them.
Ring of Sustenance
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
Explicitly the ring allows you to prep spells after only 2 hours of rest, but limits it to only once per day.
So, with a ring of sustenance an arcane caster could rest from 0000-0200, prep spells to 0300, rest from 0300-1100, prep spells from 1100-1200, rest from 1200-2000, prep spells from 2000-2100 and have 3 hours of floating time to nothing with before starting over.
Some other questions I have for you: If, travel for 8 hours is as exhausting as you seem to think it is, do you make the fighter roll for fatigue if he ends up fighting immediately after they make camp? I mean, swinging a greatsword a few dozen times per minute is surely very tiring.
Any fatigue rolls (beyond forced march) for crafting while adventuring are your house rules that you choose to add to help you limit crafting. That is fine, but they are YOUR house rules. Not RAW.
How do you define "adventuring"? Outside of a city? Investigating a dungeon? A day in which an encounter happens (whether combat or other) that xp is granted?
You didn't answer my question I put up previously. There is a party who after having successfully cleared a dungeon is now traveling back to the big city to sell their loot and purchase items and the like. On the last day of travel, they take the full 8 hours to get back to the city. Can the wizard now go to his local wizards laboratory for crafters, and craft for a full 8 hours since he is now not adventuring for the day any longer? Would you require him to make fatigue checks? Where are the rules which state he would need to make fatigue checks. Assume he does have a ring of sustenance, and after his 8 hours of crafting will retire to the party's home-base to "rest" for his 2 hours before studying his spells.
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MDT, I'm not sure at all what you're arguing about with the travel rules.
You said traveling 8 hours required additional time beyond the 8 hours of travelling, for resting, eating, etc, thus making your 8 hours of travel take 10 hours of day time. I pointed out that there is nothing in the rules to lead to that, and that thus you made it up out of whole cloth, therefore it's not a rule. Just your house rule. I pointed out that it's just as equally valid to say the rules saying 8 hours of movement for an overland day travel could include all rest time and meal time as well. It's just as valid.
Actually the rules support Aelryinth position on this:
Overland Movement
Characters covering long distances cross-country use overland movement. Overland movement is measured in miles per hour or miles per day. A day represents 8 hours of actual travel time. For rowed watercraft, a day represents 10 hours of rowing. For a sailing ship, it represents 24 hours.
Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
And you're still ignoring every post about how you can just sleep an hour (getting 4 hours of rest) or even 2 hours (and getting a full night's sleep) before starting your crafting on the road. Again, if you're part of a group, and they want items made on the road, then they'll take you off watch duty and let you do that. Even sleeping twice a day for 2 hours (4 hours total) and working 8 or walking 8 you still have 4 hours a day for other things, like socializing, reading a good romance scroll, what have you.
I fail to see how: wake, travel 8 hours, work 4 hours, sleep is different, from the fatigue you accrue, from wake, work 4 hours, travel 8 hours, sleep.
The ring of sustenance don't say that every hour of sleep count as 4, it say that you can sleep 2 hours instead of 8.
As it is magic the two things can be very different and one don't implies the other.
- * -
The "crafting to unwind" thing is possible. Think about people that after a day work go at home and construct a model ship or do other precision work for "fun".
But generally people that do that kind of things:
1) don't have heavy woks that require heavy physical labor (and adventuring, not light traveling, is heavy physical labor);
2) don't work at their fun project for 4 hours straight.
The Boston marathon example is a bad one. You could do a lot of thing in a emergency that isn't a good idea to do normally. In emergencies people has stayed awake for 3 days in a row, has worked for 48 hours with very little rest.
The march to of the light infantry brigade to reach Talavera is a good example of what could be accomplished in a emergency, 42 miles in 26 hours of forced march. Extremely good for a large military unit but they a good number of stragglers and some death for heatstroke and exhaustion. Not something you want to do routinely.
Just to note: The fatigue you get from traveling is coupled with nonlethal damage, and said fatigue goes away immediately upon healing the nonlethal damage. This means an entire party could be on a forced march throughout the day and be fatigued when they reach camp, and then with a single Channel from their cleric suffer no ill effects from the fatigue condition.
Said condition does not state, "The only way to remove fatigue is by resting for 8 hours"; what it does say is that "After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued."
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It is "Daily Readying of Spells", "daily allotment of spells", "A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Wizard." and so on at libitum.
Always "daily", never "between periods of rest".
If you need to go to the "I am capable to regain spells every time I rest" route to confute Aelryinth you are in deep trouble.
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This thread would have been a much better read without the personal attacks.
I'm off planning a halfling who floats around all day in a little hut mounted on a Floating Disk cast from a wand by his improved familiar
In case the question of "how do you get the hut on the Disk?" comes up, maybe the animal companion should be a Large ape with Int3 who can easily lift the master's hut into place each morning as well as do the hard work of getting things set up for crafting at night (or during the day if we travel by night). I think I'd call the companion Super Ape, and he'd eat mostly roast fish and cornbread. Together these 3 would fight against the downpressor man.
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I'm definitely not arguing that every roadblock Aelryinth chooses to use to impede crafting aren't valid choices for him at his table and for any other gm that chooses to use them. Some of his interpretations of the rules are still valid even at my table...
He can say 'after 8 hours of adventuring you are fatigued!'
And our party will say 'We teleport instead of travel, so scratch the 8 hours of travel fatigue'... He will find some other tool in the infinite toolbox of 'no crafting for you' and we will try and find a way around that, and soon the whole table is rolling their eyes that it even has to be such a big issue in the first place.
Aelryinth will read the above sentence and say 'Exactly! Why cant you just bow down and cowtow to my wishes. My interpretation of RAW is the one true way, and your wronginess only further dicataes the need for me to whip your character till you bleed. The fact that you require such discipline is a must, while the fact that it brings me sadistic pleasure is simply the reward I get for the pain I must suffer at needing to correct your original insolence in the first place."
Maybe that's not what he's actually thinking, but it's how I interpret whatever it is that he really is thinking, which to him sounds much more magnanimous while still maintaining that he will kindly correct our foolish misinterpretations of the raw, in the interest of improving every game everywhere, so that no gm will ever have to suffer the bane of crafting ever again!
I simply state that the more a gm gets in the way of crafting the less likely I am to play at his table, due to clearly stated proclivities for crafting that I personally hold. I give advice to my fellow crafters on the many ways to help your crafting along, while still agreeing that a gm who hates crafting has an unlimited supply of ways to beat that out of you. The only way to win is not to play, so if you love crafting your best bet is to simply not let a guy like Aelryinth run your game.
Not because he's a bad gm. But because if you want to play a crafter you're not going to be doing that at his table, or you likely wont have any fun trying.
One of the great standing problems I have with pathfinder is that it's not written with an indisputable level of clarity. It was written that way such that every player and every gm had some wiggle room on how they would interpret the rule... This infinite freedom of choices sadly also illicits an infinite variety of interpretations, from the very loose, like mine, or the very rigid, like Aelryinth, and neither is 'wrong', while at the same time neither is 'RAW'... The 'rules as written' are vague enough that aelryinth can adamantly support his idea of what they were meant to be, and I can do the same, and neither one of us would be violating 'RAW'. The point is to have fun, and my only point is I don't find his version of it to be fun, but that's me personally. His table probably loves it like all-get-out and for them that's cool. It can be interpreted differently, and to do so isn't 'breaking the rules' or 'wrongbadfun'... It's simply not compatible with the way he runs things, and if you love crafting, your best bet is to find a different gm. Not a better gm. Not a worse gm. A different gm.
And for ciretose, the only problem I have with balance is that so many gamers seem to expect it nowadays. I was raised on 2e and Rifts. Demigods and Glitterboys and Vagabonds with nothing but their wits fighting side by side. Thats as far from fair and balanced as you can get. But it can still be hella fun if you're good at it. I recommend everyone try Rifts just so they can shake themselves loose from the shackles of 'fair and balanced' but that kinda thing doesn't work out so good for some folks. Some folks gotta have the fair and balanced or the fun goes right out the window. Its a personal proclivity for them the same way my love of summoning and crafting is a personal proclivity of mine. We'z all entitled to such proclivities. My big beef with Aelryinth is the constant supposition that he is, but that we are not. He argues from the position that because it isnt written, you should not expect it, and I argue from the position that because it isnt written, there are ways to reason that it's possible. Both positions are valid. I simply refuse to let someone tell me their position is the valid one that follows the rules and mine is the invalid entitled one that breaks the rules.
His interpretation is more restrictive, my interpretation is less restrictive. If we move that analogy over to clothing, his interpretation is a leather gimpsuit thats 2 sizes too small for you, my version is a strong but loose flowing hakama... My version is a big fluffy bathrobe and his version is a fat girl in yoga pants. It takes all kinds. You just go with what you like. Fine fine. My version is homer simpson in a mumu... He's still squeezin more booty into the spandex than I prefer to look at. At least Homer covers it up. This isnt walmart or an episode of family guy. You wanna play tight, you play tight. You wanna play loose, you play loose. Its all good. I just ain't puttin on no gimp suit for nobody, and a good gm would realize nobody wants to see me in spandex in the first place.
..in the military where you both sleep AND march at the same time.
Errr wut?
Ok, I'll give on the point about additional time for eating/resting during the travel time.
Doesn't mean it can't be done with a wagon, a ring, and a mechanical horse to pull said wagon. Again though, this simply means that the GM is either putting up artificial barriers because they don't like it, or else you can get 16 hours of stuff done in one day. And the response of you can't sleep more than once per day is ludicrous on the face of it, and is absolutely pulled out of the arse house rules. Beyond that, as someone pointed out, a simple wand of lesser restoration takes care of any 'you are too fatigued' arguments.
Note: This post does not specifically address the thread title nor the OP's initial post, but rather some of the points that arose throughout the thread.
I have to admit that I gave up reading about 100-some posts into this, as frankly it got a bit redundant.
One thing that I did not see was mention of the likelihood that in most cases of PC magic item crafting, the magic item crafter has already purchased the masterwork item (breastplate, necklace, longsword, etc.) and is merely working the magic enhancements into the item. In such cases, IMHO (and the rules are admittedly vague here), little in the way of large/heavy/bulky equipment would be needed. For me, and for my group, in our game, that makes it very easy to rule that this can happen in a Rope Trick.
Also, for folks who see all this as too close a call, why not find a middle ground? I happen to be the crafter in my group, and I am fine with the compromise of garnering 6 hours of crafting per day instead of 8 hours. That comes from the 4 hours per adventuring day specified in the rules (netting 2 productive hours), plus an additional 4 hours (in a Rope Trick, with a Ring of Sustenance) that nets a full 4 hours productive time, leaving extra time in the day that I'm not trying to fill with some game mechanic. That way, I'm investing resources to gain an advantage, but I'm less productive than I would be if I were holed up in a full-on magic item crafting laboratory. I also made myself a bag of holding that contains several masterwork toolkits, and a masterwork portable laboratory, as part of the investment.
And to those who complain about everything being on the crafter's terms, I'd say that my party is happy as can be that I invested all those feats into an endeavor that saves them so much money throughout their adventuring careers, and allows them to obtain exactly the items they want almost as soon as they can afford them. What's to complain about, as long as I'm still pulling my weight in tactical situations?
One thing that I did not see was mention of the likelihood that in most cases of PC magic item crafting, the magic item crafter has already purchased the masterwork item (breastplate, necklace, longsword, etc.) and is merely working the magic enhancements into the item. In such cases, IMHO (and the rules are admittedly vague here), little in the way of large/heavy/bulky equipment would be needed. For me, and for my group, in our game, that makes it very easy to rule that this can happen in a Rope Trick.
If you look at the magic item creation page under each of the subsections for specific items, you get requirements of what is needed to craft them. Examples to follow:
"To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled.""To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled."
"The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients."
"To create a magic ring, a character needs a heat source. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a ring or the pieces of the ring to be assembled."
"To create a magic rod, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a rod or the pieces of the rod to be assembled."
"To create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled."
"To create a magic wand, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a baton or the pieces of the wand to be assembled."
"To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled."
Also, for folks who see all this as too close a call, why not find a middle ground? I happen to be the crafter in my group, and I am fine with the compromise of garnering 6 hours of crafting per day instead of 8 hours. That comes from the 4 hours per adventuring day specified in the rules (netting 2 productive hours), plus an additional 4 hours (in a Rope Trick, with a Ring of Sustenance) that nets a full 4 hours productive time, leaving extra time in the day that I'm not trying to fill with some game mechanic. That way, I'm investing resources to gain an advantage, but I'm less productive than I would be if I were holed up in a full-on magic item crafting laboratory. I also made myself a bag of holding that contains several masterwork toolkits, and a masterwork portable laboratory, as part of the investment.
Why don't you take the +5DC on your craft check, and get 500gp progress (for 2 hours) while adventuring, and 1,000gp for the 4 hour block, giving you a total of 1,500gp progress for the day?
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What one person sees as "putting up artificial barriers" another sees as putting in reasonable restrictions on a system that Pathfinder has already made ridiculously easy to implement.
While I agree it is way too easy to create items at an early level, that does not mean I agree with riding roughshod over the rules as is and adding in house rules and calling them RAW. I have all sorts of houserules, I don't post them as RAW though. That has been done by several persons earlier in the thread (such as saying you can't sleep more than once per day, which is a houserule that is being put forward as RAW).
Anyone who's ever ridden on a primitive wagon for any extended period of time will tell you it's a damm uncomfortable way to get around, even on the roads of said time.
A) Your assumption is that these are primitive wagons. Given the level of technology assumed as the default for the system, I would personally posit that while there could be a wagon that is primitive and uncomfortable, there is also large ones that will handle daily use in a not uncomfortable way (think circus wagons from the 1890-1920's).
And expecting that to be defined as an optimal environment for crafting is putting cheesmonkery above all other considerations.
Please read my posts up thread. I put in a link to a wagon from 1900's San Francisco Fire Department. It was a portable smithy, complete with forge, tools, etc. If they can do that in 1900, I think a circus style wagon could be set up with all you need to comfortably make cloaks, boots, leather armor, etc.
Spells like lesser restoration were created to deal with battle conditions, not to open the gates for flagrant rules abuse of the kind you suggest. And if I have to, I will rule that there is a limit to how much you can buttress the abuse of your body with magic, with side effects if you really insist on going too far.
Which is your right as a GM to house rule. However, that is not the rules, it is not RAW, and it is you putting up a limit that is not in the system. It is also something you should let the players know ahead of time, that you are hostile toward self crafting, and they should avoid it. I give my own players the same warnings before a game, I tell them I think it's too easy, and I'll step in if it gets out of hand. That way, they have fair warning.
But just getting on and ranting and telling people 'you are playing the game wrong' and making up rules as if they were real is not a valid response. Note, I'm not (at this point) saying you are popping this off as RAW, but there were other people doing this. Currently, you are only guilty of telling people they are having badwrongfun, and calling people names for not agreeing with you.
Waaaaaaay back, I Noted that there were spells that could deal with fatigue. But that raises the cost of crafting, as now you're going to be paying money for spending extra time awake, and you're still going to be rolling against fatigue and exhaustion.
I don't have to prove that you can sleep 8 full hours more then once a day. That's on you. Can you REST more then 8 hours a day? sure. But you're not going to gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep more then once a day. There are NO rules to support it. You are reading something into the rules that is simply Not There.
And as Diego Rossi happily pointed out, it's "Spells per Day" not "Spells after every equivalent rest period." So guess what? The trick with the Ring of Sustenance, which popped up almost 15 years ago in 3e, doesn't work in Pathfinder, either.
Note that is IS possible to work after hours. Make your fatigue Fort save, and you're fine for an hour. Sometimes, however, you're just going to be too tired and bleary-eyed to do the job right.
As for the 'sleep while marching', that's called a 'fugue state'. Mostly, however, it's just the sheer amount of physical conditioning those guys do, and the Endurance feat!
==Aelryinth
Note that is IS possible to work after hours. Make your fatigue Fort save, and you're fine for an hour. Sometimes, however, you're just going to be too tired and bleary-eyed to do the job right.
Rules quote or state this is your house rule please.
It's been cited above half a dozen times now.
==Aelryinth
No, it hasn't. You've cited the forced march rules once. Which do not apply if they do not travel for more than 8 hours.
And are quoted to the sides as a 'working day'. marching = work. Working long periods of time has the same effect as marching for long periods of time.
And if you don't believe they are transitive, then what you're going to tell me is that you can work forever and not sleep, because there's no rules that say you can't? :)
Or that you can march for eight hours, and do heavy work for eight hours, and that's less tiring then marching for nine hours?
:)
==Aelryinth
I don't see the quote 'working day' present anywhere in my copy of the Core book. Can you provide a page number/URL link to the GRD of that text?
"A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard."
Those are the rules you are referring to. Crafting does not = marching. That is your house rule.
The magic item creation rules limit you to 8 hours of crafting per day. Otherwise yes, you could craft continuously, as no rules require sleeping (except for having to rest to get spells back for crafting the item you are working on).
You still never addressed my scenario of being 12 miles away from a city. You travel during the day, making an overland distance of 12 miles at a walking pace. You arrive at the city and go to your local wizards laboratory. Can you then craft for 8 hours and get a full day of production?
Based on the rules in regards to healing damage\ability damage, it appears that you gain no more benefit from resting 16 hours than if you rested 8; the only way to benefit further would be to rest for a full day, which restores twice as much as an 8-hour rest.
Healing
After taking damage, you can recover hit points through natural healing or through magical healing. In any case, you can't regain hit points past your full normal hit point total.Natural Healing: With a full night's rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.
If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points.
Magical Healing: Various abilities and spells can restore hit points.
Healing Limits: You can never recover more hit points than you lost. Magical healing won't raise your current hit points higher than your full normal hit point total.
Healing Ability Damage: Temporary ability damage returns at the rate of 1 point per night of rest (8 hours) for each affected ability score. Complete bed rest restores 2 points per day (24 hours) for each affected ability score.
With that said, and with "specific trumps general" in mind, the Fatigued condition does not use the same wording as the healing section; it does not refer to "a full night's rest", but refers to "8 hours of complete rest".
Fatigued: A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.
The difference in wording indicates that you could be fatigued, sleep for 8 hours, awake and work until you were fatigued again, then sleep 8 more hours (even if it's in the same day) and wake up not fatigued again. However, you would not heal more wounds or ability damage by sleeping the second time.
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I'm extremely strict when it comes to all facets of magic, because that's the only way to keep this game from becoming a caster's game with everyone else as sidekicks. And I put in one simple additional rule to put some kind of control on the process. In my games, crafters require formulas or recipies for any item they want to craft. They can research them, buy them, or steal them. but they can't craft without them, and I occasionally give them as treasure items.
What mechanic you use to decide what formulas the crafter know simply for acquiring the appropriate crafting feat and what formulas he need to learn/develop?
Back in the 1st/2nd edition days I had wizard libraries composed by tomes dedicated to a single spell or thematic linked spells, with lengthy discussion about possible uses in magic item creation using those spells, theories on the effects of using them in strange environments and so on.
Those where the true books describing the spells and no intelligence check was required to comprehend the spell described in those books.
The wizard spellboks were instead reference or formula books with only the minimum informations needed to prepare the spell for someone that did already know it, so the need to make a intelligence check to learn a spell from a spellbook.
That could be adapted to pathfinder, the problem is pricing that kind of items.
Anyone who's ever ridden on a primitive wagon for any extended period of time will tell you it's a damm uncomfortable way to get around, even on the roads of said time.
Unless I am mistaken the idea (for most posters, at least) is to use the wagon as a secure and appropriately furnished working stationwhen it is at rest, not while traveling.
Maybe you could do that on the move on the best Roman roads, as those where paved and very level, but after the fall of the Roman empire that kind of roads practically disappeared till the XVIII century.
Golarion don't seem the kind of environment where you find plenty of paved roads. AFAIK horses prefer dirt roads and maintaining paved roads cost and require a reasonably stable and secure nation.
A) Your assumption is that these are primitive wagons. Given the level of technology assumed as the default for the system, I would personally posit that while there could be a wagon that is primitive and uncomfortable, there is also large ones that will handle daily use in a not uncomfortable way (think circus wagons from the 1890-1920's).
That require advances suspensions.
Horse drawn vehicles
Strap suspension 1605By the early 19th century, most British horse carriages were equipped with springs; wooden springs in the case of light one-horse vehicles to avoid taxation, and steel springs in larger vehicles. These were made of low-carbon steel and usually took the form of multiple layer leaf springs.
The British steel springs were not well suited for use on America's rough roads of the time, and could even cause coaches to collapse if cornered too fast. In the 1820s, the Abbot Downing Company of Concord, New Hampshire re-discovered the antique system whereby the bodies of stagecoaches were supported on leather straps called "thoroughbraces", which gave a swinging motion instead of the jolting up and down of a spring suspension (the stagecoach itself was sometimes called a "thoroughbrace").
A swinging motion don't seem so conductive to to delicate work, and breaking the suspension at the wrong time can be disastrous.
Again, I think it depend more on the roads than the vehicle.
Mostly, however, it's just the sheer amount of physical conditioning those guys do, and the Endurance feat!
Pretty much, and nothing to do with 'sleep marching', what an interesting idea THAT would be.
What mechanic you use to decide what formulas the crafter know simply for acquiring the appropriate crafting feat and what formulas he need to learn/develop?
Back in the 1st/2nd edition days I had wizard libraries composed by tomes dedicated to a single spell or thematic linked spells, with lengthy discussion about possible uses in magic item creation using those spells, theories on the effects of using them in strange environments and so on.
Those where the true books describing the spells and no intelligence check was required to comprehend the spell described in those books.
The wizard spellboks were instead reference or formula books with only the minimum informations needed to prepare the spell for someone that did already know it, so the need to make a intelligence check to learn a spell from a spellbook.
That could be adapted to pathfinder, the problem is pricing that kind of items.
Or just ask the local bard/loremaster/other person who can always make knowledge checks on stuff. Have it hook for them to go to the <insert place here> to retrieve the recipe for <insert item here>.
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Based on the rules in regards to healing damage\ability damage, it appears that you gain no more benefit from resting 16 hours than if you rested 8; the only way to benefit further would be to rest for a full day, which restores twice as much as an 8-hour rest.
Healing
After taking damage, you can recover hit points through natural healing or through magical healing. In any case, you can't regain hit points past your full normal hit point total.Natural Healing: With a full night's rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.
If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points.
Magical Healing: Various abilities and spells can restore hit points.
Healing Limits: You can never recover more hit points than you lost. Magical healing won't raise your current hit points higher than your full normal hit point total.
Healing Ability Damage: Temporary ability damage returns at the rate of 1 point per night of rest (8 hours) for each affected ability score. Complete bed rest restores 2 points per day (24 hours) for each affected ability score.
With that said, and with "specific trumps general" in mind, the Fatigued condition does not use the same wording as the healing section; it does not refer to "a full night's rest", but refers to "8 hours of complete rest".
Fatigued: A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.The difference in wording indicates that you could be fatigued, sleep for 8 hours, awake and work until you were fatigued again, then sleep 8 more hours (even if it's in the same day) and wake up not fatigued again. However, you would not heal more wounds or ability damage by sleeping the second time.
Good interpretation. But the magic item crafting rules are more restrictive:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day.
Then it say:
He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.
And that can be interpreted as "he can march for the other 16 hours of the same day", but it seem a bit of a stretch.
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Or just ask the local bard/loremaster/other person who can always make knowledge checks on stuff. Have it hook for them to go to the <insert place here> to retrieve the recipe for <insert item here>.What mechanic you use to decide what formulas the crafter know simply for acquiring the appropriate crafting feat and what formulas he need to learn/develop?
Back in the 1st/2nd edition days I had wizard libraries composed by tomes dedicated to a single spell or thematic linked spells, with lengthy discussion about possible uses in magic item creation using those spells, theories on the effects of using them in strange environments and so on.
Those where the true books describing the spells and no intelligence check was required to comprehend the spell described in those books.
The wizard spellboks were instead reference or formula books with only the minimum informations needed to prepare the spell for someone that did already know it, so the need to make a intelligence check to learn a spell from a spellbook.
That could be adapted to pathfinder, the problem is pricing that kind of items.
And what is the cost of consulting the "local bard/loremaster/other person who can always make knowledge checks on stuff" with an appropriate level of skill?
Time required to do the skill check?I can ask my engineer friend a engineering question and he can usually give me a rough evaluational on the spot, but if I need to build something I would have to require precise calculations and evalutaions, and that has a cost in money and time.
Just for the record, I have got the ultimate campaign PDF two day ago, but I haven't jet read the magic item creation section (7 pages).
I will look if there is something relevant in it and post here about it.
I'm totally itching to see what this book has to offer on the subject and on some other downtime subjects as well.