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Oy this is a lot to go through. 1 was taken care of by Mr. Sin
2. That's the whole point of the list. Summoners are suppose to get fullcasting BUT if they had as many spells they would be OP. So they get full-casting with worse DCs, less spell slots, and way less spells known. All of that is balanced out by their class features.
3 & 5. Animal companion is actually better at level 1. The eidolon is never better than a martial. The most attacks you can have is 7 attacks at level 20! Ok so you have illegal eidolons skewing your opinion.
4. It's not abuse. Weird racial archetype cross class combos don't prove that a class is broken. Many classes have earlier access to sells (paladins and rangers). Yet no one bans those classes.
6. Oh no something filling the skill monkey role at great sacrifice to combat prowess!!! Well I guess he joins metric F-ton of other classes that pull that off. Or you know real full casters just using spells to cover skills.
7. No. CHA is nice but INT and WIS are more meta-game friendly. It's a common argument that a wizard advantage is that they use INT. CHA is in no way more powerful or game breaking.
As for most versatile class in the game, I present any full caster. Heck Druids are easily better than a summoner, yet they aren't banned at your tables.
Magus and bard can both cast in armor. Summoner is six level caster. They all 3 have 3/4 bab and partial casting that can cast in armor. Summoner is limited to light, bards have archetypes that go beyond light, and magus starts at light and only gets better.
In addition to a staggeringly huge stable of early access spells, the following are some of the 7th through 9th level spells that appear on the summoner's "6 level" spell list.
Banishment (7)
Lesser Create Demiplane (7)
Creeping Doom (7)
Ethereal Jaunt (7)
Mass Invisibility (7)
Plane Shift (7)
Sequester (7)
Simulacrum (7)
Spell Turning (7)
Summon Monster VII (7)
Greater Teleport (7)
Antipathy (8)
Binding (8)
Mass Charm Monster (8)
Create Demiplane (8)
Dimensional Lock (8)
Discern Location (8)
Dominate Monster (9)
Greater Hostile Juxtaposition (7)
Incendiary Cloud (8)
Maze (8)
Mass Planar Adaptation (7)
Greater Planar Binding (8)
Protection from Spells (8)
Summon Monster VIII (8)
Sympathy (8)
Teleportation Circle (9)
Walk Through Space (7)
Please, tell me they're not a full caster again with a straight face.
Magus and bard can both cast in armor. Summoner is six level caster. They all 3 have 3/4 bab and partial casting that can cast in armor. Summoner is limited to light, bards have archetypes that go beyond light, and magus starts at light and only gets better.In addition to a staggeringly huge stable of early access spells, the following are some of the 7th through 9th level spells that appear on the summoner's "6 level" spell list.
Banishment (7)
Lesser Create Demiplane (7)
Creeping Doom (7)
Ethereal Jaunt (7)
Mass Invisibility (7)
Plane Shift (7)
Sequester (7)
Simulacrum (7)
Spell Turning (7)
Summon Monster VII (7)
Greater Teleport (7)
Antipathy (8)
Binding (8)
Mass Charm Monster (8)
Create Demiplane (8)
Dimensional Lock (8)
Discern Location (8)
Dominate Monster (9)
Greater Hostile Juxtaposition (7)
Incendiary Cloud (8)
Maze (8)
Mass Planar Adaptation (7)
Greater Planar Binding (8)
Protection from Spells (8)
Summon Monster VIII (8)
Sympathy (8)
Teleportation Circle (9)
Walk Through Space (7)Please, tell me they're not a full caster again with a straight face.
Yeah they are fullcasters. But any sorcerer laughs at their pitiful selection, spells known, spell slots, and low DCs.
Yes summoners have nerfed full-casting. Whoo SO OP. Summoners use their 3/4 BAB when exactly? It's a buff they get for not being good full-casters.
@Bearded Ben : they are. The fact that most DM don't play it that way doesn't change that (though some actually use the official rule of Handle animal, which is better than nothing, and familiar aren't as huge a problem as the companion and eidolon).
Eidolon have most problem with it because they are the most powerful "companion" you can have with you, and they are intelligent and faithful enough to be directed without anything, while still being NPC (thus, moved and handled by the DM, not the player).
They aren't a full caster. They don't get spells much earlier(1 level), if at all. They all have worse DCs. They have less spells per level and known. They are not a full caster, they are a partial caster with a nice list. They get access to 7th level spells at 16, 2 levels later than sorcerer(14), 3 than wizard(13).
To me, full caster is 9 levels of spells. There are many benefits to that. Full casters also can devote more resources to their casting, should the summoner decides to focus on his eidolon at all. The summoner is also very limited in tricks, while full casters have his selection and more. Spells per day and known is a big thing, as are spell DCs.
@Bearded Ben : they are. The fact that most DM don't play it that way doesn't change that (though some actually use the official rule of Handle animal, which is better than nothing, and familiar aren't as huge a problem as the companion and eidolon).
Eidolon have most problem with it because they are the most powerful "companion" you can have with you, and they are intelligent and faithful enough to be directed without anything, while still being NPC (thus, moved and handled by the DM, not the player).
So they have a unique class feature that no one else can emulate. GASP! Since their whole class is design around the eidolon it makes sense that the eidolon is neat and useful.
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Oy this is a lot to go through. 1 was taken care of by Mr. Sin
Not really, but I will continue.
2. That's the whole point of the list. Summoners are suppose to get fullcasting BUT if they had as many spells they would be OP. So they get full-casting with worse DCs, less spell slots, and way less spells known. All of that is balanced out by their class features.
So, a spellcaster that have access to the 9th level spell list of a wizard (without Divination and evocation) is not a fullcaster ? Let me laugh (but respectfully).
And remember that the number of spell per day/known is irrelevant beyond the first 3 or 4 levels, as most spells can be found on scrolls/... and he can use most of them (even without accounting for UMD).
3 & 5. Animal companion is actually better at level 1. The eidolon is never better than a martial. The most attacks you can have is 7 attacks at level 20! Ok so you have illegal eidolons skewing your opinion.
They are limited to 7 forms of natural attacks. Rake make 1 of those 7 attack being 2 attacks (and you can take several of those if you want). And you can even make a centaurus form that can wield weapons. 13 attacks ? Challenge acceptable for any summoner. He only need 1 level or Transmogrify.
Even with 4 attacks at level 1 (claw/claw/rake/rake, while pouncing), they explode any level one PC martial character, any time. And all of them are primary attacks. And its intuitive. Its better than any companion the druid have at level 1. It's not even on par.
4. It's not abuse. Weird racial archetype cross class combos don't prove that a class is broken. Many classes have earlier access to sells (paladins and rangers). Yet no one bans those classes.
Because most of those classes' spell list is not filled with fullcaster spell list. I would have the same opinion I have of the summoner for the paladin if he had most of the cleric spell list fit in his own spell list, I can assure you. A paladin is a semi (or even less) caster. A summoner is a fullcaster.
6. Oh no something filling the skill monkey role at great sacrifice to combat prowess!!! Well I guess he joins metric F-ton of other classes that pull that off. Or you know real full casters just using spells to cover skills.
Yes, he have to "steal" 2 points (3 points later) of his eidolon to be able to humiliate a rogue even more. And that, without using any spell (unlike other fullcaster) or sacrificing the most important part of his power (the eidolon lost, what ? 2 points out of 16 ? Hell, he will only have 7 attacks instead of 8, what a loss ! even when theorically he wouldn't be able to go above 5).
7. No. CHA is nice but INT and WIS are more meta-game friendly. It's a common argument that a wizard advantage is that they use INT. CHA is in no way more powerful or game breaking.
CHA is better than INT or WIS any time. And the summoner can even have INT in addition to CHA if he wants to (he is not MAD).
As for most versatile class in the game, I present any full caster. Heck Druids are easily better than a summoner, yet they aren't banned at your tables.
To begin, druids follow the rules of the game. And they can't reach even half the versatility of summoner. Yes, they are maybe more powerful, but not nearly as versatile as a summoner, despite being certainly the most versatile class in core (fullcaster, wildshape, animal companion).
CHA is better why? Charisma gives bonuses to 4 skills. One of which is rarely used. Intellegence gives it to 10+, and then each level gives you the points to put into it in the first place. Its not likely a summoner will have 26 intelligence, meanwhile the wizard is.
Druids can trade out any spell they have for a summon natures ally. They also have more spells total, know all of their spells from the start, many buffing spells that are great for animals, and get a pet of their own that can coexist with their summon. They have 4+ skill points per level, which puts them 2 ahead of what the summoner needs already. They also have better saves and the the same BAB.
Saying summoners don't follow the rules of the game is ridiculous. You are basically saying they are unique and not redundant (which is the point of a new base class right?)
Rake abuse doesn't give you more attacks. You can have a max of 7 natural attacks, that includes rakes. EDIT: 3 attacks at level 1 like many druid ACs.
Most of your problem with the class seems to be rule abuse. As in your summoners aren't following their own rules.
Yes summoners are meant to play as a heavily nerfed full-casters that make it up with either the eidolon or summons(master summoner)
@Mrsin
CHA is better why? Charisma gives bonuses to 4 skills. One of which is rarely used. Intellegence gives it to 10+, and then each level gives you the points to put into it in the first place. Its not likely a summoner will have 26 intelligence, meanwhile the wizard is.
Charisma helps you during all those "face" phases. It also allows you to use UMD with full power.
Intelligence helps you with knowledge, spellcraft and linguistics (for the most important part). It allows to have more skills, and that's why summoner will be interested to have more in this than most class, but they don't NEED it.
Druids can trade out any spell they have for a summon natures ally. They also have more spells total, know all of their spells from the start, many buffing spells that are great for animals, and get a pet of their own that can coexist with their summon.
Summoners have a pet that can be replaced the same round it dies by summon monsters (which is more powerful than summon nature's ally), which doesn't use their spells. They don't need to prepare their spells. They have less spell known and slots, but just with their eidolon, they are better. Their own summon monster spells can coexist with their eidolon too.
If they want, their eidolon can coexist with their summon monster feature too (by summoning it instead of using the ritual).Moreover, the spell list of summoner is better than the druid spell list.
They have 4+ skill points per level, which puts them 2 ahead of what the summoner needs already. They also have better saves and the the same BAB.
Nope : summoners have 5+INT skill points per level, as their eidolon can take ANY skill without restrictions (and gain 12 skill points [4 per HD] every 4 levels of summoner, for an average of 3 per level of summoner). And if, by miracle, the summoner choose to augment their companion INT, it gains even more skill points to use.
And summoner doesn't have to spend 1 skill point per level for 5+ levels to use one of their class features (the druid need to spend skill points in handle animal, if he wants his companion to obey orders). And a druid is also pretty MAD (WIS and CHA for his class features, CON as any class, and STR and DEX if he wants to be relevant in wildshape, so INT is likely to be a dump stat for a druid, except if he wants to abandon part of his class features). He also have to spend feat(s) to use his class features the best way.
The summoner have all included in his class features. And he only need CHA (for his spells), and CON (as any class). He can afford to have his third ability in DEX or INT (or even both by dumping STR).
@Marthkus : you're right, they can't use rake at 1st level. But rake attacks DOES grant you 2 attacks for the cost of 1 "natural attack".
Rake (Ex): An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward te eidolon's maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.
So it has to grapple foes to abuse rake. That's a problem because? Also you need a pair of legs for every rake. Good luck abusing that. Since claws also take up a leg slot.
EDIT: Summoners need both handle animal and linguistics, you know for summoning...
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Summoners may be versatile
but in the end, their limited spells known are a hinderance, even with scrolls, because scrolls always use the minimum possible DC.
in fact, cramming 9 levels into 6, is less advantageous than giving them proper full casting.
Partial Caster plus Good List does not equal full caster
it is still a partial caster, just with a really good list.
Just an example of what you could do with an eidolon you could have at 10th level, accounting for 2 feats from the summoner (extra evolution x2) and the summoner using its feature that delete 2 evolution points for gaining 2 evolution point for himself (leaving 14 evolution points for the eidolon) :
And I'm not even optimizing (and the eidolon following is totally legit). The only buff I accounted when making it is Mage armor. In combat, he will be likely to be under Haste, and several other buffs :
Asura's beast
Quadriped eidolon for 10th level summoner
N Large Outsider
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft; Perception RANKS+0
DEFENSE
AC 28, touch 12, flat-footed 25 (+3 dex, +12 natural, +2 shield, +4 armor [mage armor], -1 size)
hp 76 (8d10+32)
Fort +10, Ref +9 (evasion), Will +4; +4 vs enchantments
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 1 light mace +14/+9 (1d8+9/x2), 4 large light maces offhand attacks +14 (1d8+5/x2), 1 bite +14 (1d8+5/x2), 2 claws (+14, 1d6+5)
Special Attacks Pounce
STATISTICS
Str 26, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +8; CMB +17; CMD 30
Feats Multiattack, Multiweapon fighting, Power attack, Iron will, Simple weapon proficiency
Skills 40 skill ranks, but not more than 8 per skill. +8 to 2 skills.
Languages Common
SQ quadriped eidolon (Bite, limb (leg) x 2, skilled x2, claws, pounce, limb (arm) x 3, large)
OTHER
Equipment 2 large light maces in alchemical silver +1, 2 large light maces in cold iron +1, 1 large light maces in adamantine +1, amulet of mighty fist +1, large buckler in mithral +1 (less than 40% of a summoner total equipment).
EDITED : light maces instead of morningstars.
EDIT 2 : divided light maces into main attack and off hand attacks
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Disagreement on both counts.
Channel energy only gives a save if they choose damaging option by RAW, so anyone who can channel energy auto bypasses superstition unless they're trying to hurt the barbarian. So the barbarian can be healed while raging though only with a couple of effects. The barbarian only need save against spells, so spell like effects like the witches hex for healing and lay on hands also bypass it.Paladin's will only be meh against anyone not evil? Are you crazy? They'll be slightly less powerful without smite yes. On the other hand they have numerous buff powers and spells that are independent of enemy alignment to kick them up a notch. Furthermore, have you looked at AP's? General rule of thumb; if its smart enough to have an alignment, you can bet that alignment has the word evil in there somewhere.
Basically the only things you commonly fight that aren't evil are constructs and animals, and even those are fairly rare.
I'm not talking about a superstition barbarian, or healing him, I'm talking ALL barbarians have a set point major flaw. There is a set point when they still have POSITIVE HPs in a rage, that IF the rage ends, the Barbarian drops below his Con and auto dies and if they get to zero it's sure death, where even the weakest mook, might still survive if he is koed. But it's the price they pay for being able to go toe to toe with the big nasties and rock them.
As far as Pallies go it takes a few rounds to buff, AoOPs if they cast in melee. Also many smart 'opponents' can be CN (bandits, snake oil salesmen, etc.), or any other alignment even two LGs can come to blows over something. When I DM animals (especially big ones) are prevalent enough to be serious threats. Paladin vs. a bull mammoth protecting it's herd is going to be interesting. Or in my example, dire tiger ambush right in the face.
Now back to summoners, I have DMed Kingmaker and we have a 14 year old girl at our table and her summoner is not only legal, but she has played her character better then the resident 'power gamer/dice fudger' I deal with. And it's her favorite character. Now she is a smart girl (smarter then her college dropout brother really) but if a 14 year old can make this class work well without being broken and have fun with it, maybe you should relook at your bias against the class.
Oh and Ninja is not all together better then rogue, ninja has no trapfinding, and therefore won't know to do the penitent somersault to avoid decapitation by the giant buzzsaws. Or keep the BSF from stepping on the switch that makes spikes come out of the wall and start closing in. Or even save them when the door locks with a magical device.
Hahaha. You know the maces and natural attacks can't be used at the same time right? Where is your evolution list (is SQ you included free ones too...)? Why do you have 6 arms and leave one empty? Good luck enhancing all of those weapons.
This eidolon isn't OP it's bad. You're flurry of love-taps is a pitiful excuse for a melee combatant. Still better than an AC, but that's to be expected.
So one primary mace with 4 off-hand maces (so OP) or 3 natural attacks? Pfffffff
No, you can do all of them simultaneously.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
And I made every natural attack secondary for this eidolon full attack option.
Oh, and the "free hand" actually is not free : it hold a buckler.
Good luck enhancing all of those weapons.
That's the point of the eidolon : you can change it every level. Next level, I could make it a dragon-like eidolon, or a skilled creature with +8 in all skills, or an angel, or an improved version of this one.
I don't need to find enhanced version of those weapons (I can handle the fact of finding enhanced version of those weapons though).
I made an error in the build : I accounted Max str for the offhand light maces attack. I am editing right now.
And I made every natural attack secondary for this eidolon full attack option.
Oh, and the "free hand" actually is not free : it hold a buckler.
Good luck enhancing all of those weapons.That's the point of the eidolon : you can change it every level. Next level, I could make it a dragon-like eidolon, or a skilled creature with +8 in all skills, or an angel, or an improved version of this one.
I don't need to find enhanced version of those weapons (I can handle the fact of finding enhanced version of those weapons though).
You still added the to-hit wrong. Secondary natural attacks take a -5 penalty. Large is another minus 1. So 8 BAB - 5 + 8 str - 1 size = 10 to-hit and they get 1/2 str mod to damage + 4. The maces suck more. 8 BAB - 2 (multi-weapon penalty) + 8 str - 1 size = 13 to-hit and four of them get 1/2 str mod to damage. Flurry of love taps. To-hit is WAY low for level ten. Damage is all but destroyed by the littlest DR. Any martial out fights this eidolon. Actually, I wouldn't put it past the monk and the rogue to out-damage this "proof of OP-ness". At least they will have better magic item bonuses. The best you can get here is plus 1.
There is your problem. Summoners are fullcasters. They just reworked the design to balance out with the class features.
A half-caster getting spells faster than full-casters and at lower levels (and thus cheaper for wands and scrolls) is poor design IMHO
There is no balance attained by squeezing in full casting into a 3/4 casting chassis. In fact, the lie that it somehow gives them so few spell slots is a laugh. Summoners get 5 base spells per level. Plus bonus spells (and their bonus spells come at a lower ability score bonus because they are lower level. It's not overly difficult to acquire a 30+ Charisma by 20th level (especially as a summoner) which means you have +2 spells per day for every level of casting you have (wizards and sorcerers and clerics and druids need a 36+ stat to get +2 9th level spells).
They get much cheaper returns on rings of wizardry as well. No other class can buy or craft a ring of wizardry and get such an incredible returns on spellcasting power. Craft a ring of wizardry IV for 1/2 price and enjoy an effective x2 on 5th level spells.
There is no balance gained here. Summoners don't need this for balance. They are not weak. They are not frail. You can give them every spell on their list at the actual level that it should be and they would still be an incredibly strong class without mucking up everything that is sensible.
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I'm not talking about a superstition barbarian, or healing him, I'm talking ALL barbarians have a set point major flaw. There is a set point when they still have POSITIVE HPs in a rage, that IF the rage ends, the Barbarian drops below his Con and auto dies and if they get to zero it's sure death, where even the weakest mook, might still survive if he is koed. But it's the price they pay for being able to go toe to toe with the big nasties and rock them.
I wise man once said:
"If rage would end and you would die, you were already dead."
You still added the to-hit wrong. Secondary natural attacks take a -5 penalty. Large is another minus 1. So 8 BAB - 5 + 8 str - 1 size = 10 to-hit and they get 1/2 str mod to damage + 4. The maces suck more. 8 BAB - 2 (multi-weapon penalty) + 8 str - 1 size = 13 to-hit and four of them get 1/2 str mod to damage. Flurry of love taps. To-hit is WAY low for level ten. Damage is all but destroyed by the littlest DR. Any martial out fights this eidolon. Actually, I wouldn't put it past the monk and the rogue to out-damage this "proof of OP-ness". At least they will have better magic item bonuses. The best you can get here is plus 1.And I made every natural attack secondary for this eidolon full attack option.
Oh, and the "free hand" actually is not free : it hold a buckler.
Good luck enhancing all of those weapons.That's the point of the eidolon : you can change it every level. Next level, I could make it a dragon-like eidolon, or a skilled creature with +8 in all skills, or an angel, or an improved version of this one.
I don't need to find enhanced version of those weapons (I can handle the fact of finding enhanced version of those weapons though).
With Multiattack (the feat any eidolon have past 8th level for free), secondary natural attacks are at -2 instead of -5.
And I have an amulet of mighty fist : 8 [BAB] -2 [Secondary] +8 [STR] -1 [size] +1 [amulet] = +14.Secondary attacks get 1/2 STR to damage, for +4, and +1 from the amulet, for a total of +5. No mistakes here.
For the maces, you forgot the +1 (all of the 5 maces are +1, look at equipment).
I did make a mistake for the STR part of them, that is corrected.
@ Ashiel
We'll just have to disagree there. I picture summoners as full-casters with a focus on summoning. If they didn't get decent spells, they become locked into the eidolon battery role. Which is lame.
They still are not more powerful than actual full-casters and if they were given actual full-casting they would be OP.
You know sorcerer gets 6 per spell level right? Summoner gets 30 slots. Sorcerer gets 54 slots and they get more spells from high charisma than a summoner. +10 cha gives more slots to a sorcerer than to a summoner.
Also summoners get like 2 9th level spells and they aren't even the good ones. They don't even get SMIX. They have to use their SLA's for that.
Oh and a sorcerer will only know like 3 to 4 times the amount of spells a summoner gets. Especially with human fav class or paragon surge.
With Multiattack (the feat any eidolon have past 8th level for free), secondary natural attacks are at -2 instead of -5.
And I have an amulet of mighty fist : 8 [BAB] -2 [Secondary] +8 [STR] -1 [size] +1 [amulet] = +14.Secondary attacks get 1/2 STR to damage, for +4, and +1 from the amulet, for a total of +5. No mistakes here.
For the maces, you forgot the +1 (all of the 5 maces are +1, look at equipment).
I did make a mistake for the STR part of them, that is corrected.
That attack pattern is still garbage though. The fighter (without weapon focus) will be at least. 10 BAB + 2 (weapon training) + 7 strength +2 magic weapon which is + 21/16. Or with power attack is +19/14 with power attack damage being 2d6(7) + 10 str + 2 magic + 2 wep train + 9 power attack = 30.
Your maces get destroyed by 10 dr. My martials are hitting better and with more damage than your flurry of love taps. If my fighter brought weapon focus feats the comparison is even worse. God forbid we bring in a barbar (who has pouce and natural attacks). He just laughs at the eidolon and his battery (since I'm guessing you're burning feats and spells known to assist the eidolon).
@ Ashiel
We'll just have to disagree there. I picture summoners as full-casters with a focus on summoning. If they didn't get decent spells, they become locked into the eidolon battery role. Which is lame.
They still are not more powerful than actual full-casters and if they were given actual full-casting they would be OP.
They are overpowered right now. The funny thing is that they have most of the stuff that makes god-wizards god wizards to begin with. Their buffs are incredible. They have amazing summoning power (which adds both Hp and powerful action economy to your side). They have battlefield control (they get virtually all of the best battlefield control spells including all the pit spells, cloud spells, black tentacles, wind wall, glitterdust, wall of ice, etc). They get most of the best defensive spells (tons of illusion defenses, stoneskin, fire shield, spell turning, wall spells, etc). They even get some of the most powerful spells in the game (simulacrum, the planar binding line, maze). Mobility spells (from spiderclimb to overland flight to various teleportation spells). Then we can throw some good ol' fashioned mind control and a few druid spells in for good measure.
They get more spells known than a sorcerer for each given level (sorcerers get an average of 4 spells known per spell level, summoners get 6 spells known for every level, which is keen for them because they also get their spells discounted in level).
And the summoner gets more potent spell slots more frequently. But here's the second half of it. See, not only does the summoner get better returns for a high casting stat, get huge discounts on rings of wizardry in terms of power, have more spells known per level without using a specific racial favored class option, get discounts on scrolls and wands, and get massive discounts on metamagic rods (truly where one of the greatest offenses is born), but...drum roll please...
You get a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, and a creature that you can build to be your ideal meatshield/murdermeister. A creature that you can buff to the high heavens. You don't even have to optimize this guy to focus entirely on him. You're a 3/4 BAB d8 class with amazing buffs and powerful defenses. You can actually fight and you can cast in armor (heavier mithral armors are your friend here). I'm not even going to get into what you can make the eidolon do because there's too much to go into here, but even if you were just using him as mobile cover and making use of the +2 bonus to AC and saves for being near him it would be awesome enough (but they are so, so, sooooo much more).
And then...oh yes and then. If your Eidolon snuffs it (and it is expendable) you have a free summon monster I-IX + gate on call 3 + Cha Mod times per day. Except these summons are SLAs which require no components (you needn't speak, move, have any materials) and they pop out at a duration of 1 minute / caster level (effectively extended nine times over the normal duration). As a SLA it cannot be countered either. Just if that wasn't enough, you cast it as a standard action so it's actually quicker and harder to interrupt than normal summoning spells (by a huge margin). Then at 19th level he gets GATE as a SLA (again no components except the material component due to an exception to the normal SLA rules) on call all the time.
You could trash the eidolon in its entirety and this class would be one of the strongest classes in the game. In fact, one archetype nearly does so and is widely considered the most gamebreaking class by many, many people.
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In addition to a staggeringly huge stable of early access spells, the following are some of the 7th through 9th level spells that appear on the summoner's "6 level" spell list.
Summoners get 6th level spells at level 16. It's not all that early for the spells listed; at that level Sorcerer just got their 8th level spells and at 17th Wizards get their 9th level spells.
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You do understand that I didn't used anything on the eidolon yet, except for Mage armor (which last 10 hours), right ? And that is only a class feature of a character, not a whole character by itself (despite being a NPC) ?
I wrote that this wasn't even optimized, and I meant it : it is basic eidolon (even if a bit original for its concept). I didn't take exotic race to have bonus evolution point, and the summoner used 2 points of the eidolon reserve for him (so the eidolon have 2 points less than what he "should" have).
What if I haste and greater invisibility it (for 2 slots out of 14 of 2nd level and above, meaning he could do 7 battle a day before resting) ? What if I took weapon proficiency as an evolution (replacing 2 skilled) instead of a feat and took double slice as a feat instead of this garbage feat (simple weapon proficiency) ? What if I took a much better weapon for my main hand (a morningstar for example) ? All of these modifications could be used to enhance greatly the eidolon, without any loss for the summoner (and I could even enhance its equipment, because, the summoner only need an headband of charisma to function at 100% power).
This eidolon have way better skills than a fighter, better saves than a fighter, and very correct HP and AC too (though less than a fighter), and share HP with its summoner for even more HP (60 more without forcing and without items/spells). He can even be healed by its summoner if needed, thanks to his 26 charisma [same as your fighter STR] and ranks into UMD by a wand of CLW.
Gate still cost money and nothing you said makes their casting better than a sorcerer. Summoners have severely nerfed sorcerer casting. Summoners don't have the money to buy rings or wizardry since they have to get magic items for their eidolon to keep it useful. Only a master summoner could abuse your ring trick.
Summoners don't get discounted wands. No one sells wands made by summoners. No summoner picks up craft wand either. Sorcerers with the human favored class bonus get an average of 6 per spell level and have 3 more spell levels than a summoner (who's top two spell lvls only get 5). Furthermore sorcerers get bloodline spells.
Master summoner is only games breaking if you consider every fullcaster game breaking.
Summoners are nice, but their casting is WAY too sub-par to be their primary class feature. Hence the SLA's and eidolon.
Summoners are not conjurer wizards. They are sorcerers with a summoning focus. Ofcourse they have non-conjuration spells on their list.
Can you honestly picture a summoner without the planar binding line? I mean out of all the classes out there, which one is most likely to consort with outsiders? And your telling me they shouldn't have those spells because real full-casters need to have no one that can compete with them?
You do understand that I didn't used anything on the eidolon yet, except for Mage armor (which last 10 hours), right ? And that is only a class feature of a character, not a whole character by itself (despite being a NPC) ?
I wrote that this wasn't even optimized, and I meant it : it is basic eidolon (even if a bit original for its concept). I didn't take exotic race to have bonus evolution point, and the summoner used 2 points of the eidolon reserve for him (so the eidolon have 2 points less than what he "should" have).
What if I haste and greater invisibility it (for 2 slots out of 14 of 2nd level and above, meaning he could do 7 battle a day before resting) ? What if I took weapon proficiency as an evolution (replacing 2 skilled) instead of a feat and took double slice as a feat instead of this garbage feat (simple weapon proficiency) ? What if I took a much better weapon for my main hand (a morningstar for example) ? All of these modifications could be used to enhance greatly the eidolon, without any loss for the summoner (and I could even enhance its equipment, because, the summoner only need an headband of charisma to function at 100% power).
This eidolon have way better skills than a fighter, better saves than a fighter, and very correct HP and AC too (though less than a fighter), and share HP with its summoner for even more HP (60 more without forcing and without items/spells). He can even be healed by its summoner if needed, thanks to his 26 charisma [same as your fighter STR] and ranks into UMD by a wand of CLW.
Your eidolon build can do 0 zero damage in a round and still hit with every attack if your opponent has basic DR. It doesn't matter what else it can do or what your battery does for it. It is sad. If you want to show that eidolons are OP make one that can do decent damage and doesn't have a flurry of off-hand or secondary attacks. The barbar is laughing at your summoner. For an OP class, the martial shouldn't be laughing at you.
Eidolons require a lot of investment to keep strong. Low strength to begin with, when they get big they get in the way a lot and have a hard time fitting into small spaces. They're almost always pounce chargers and therefore quads. They can do some real damage though, I watched a six armed flying super gopher for a good time in society just rip anything it jumped on to pieces. The summoner on his own can be a real monster at later levels when you can afford to spend a lot of money, but his DCs will always be abysmal, and he'll always have fewer total spells.
I just hate that almost all the new core classes are Magic Using ones, except the Gunslinger and Cavalier (I'm, as i usually do, ignoring the Asian themed alt classes). They couldn't have fit a Swashbuckler in there? Or a "Noble" (for instance, NOT Aristocrat). Just some other option that doesn't rely on Hocus-Pocus.
Well, this is a fantasy game. Barbarian and fighter do not magic pretty well, and beyond gunslinger and cavalier what none magic would you like to see? Noble isn't really a class for someone out dungeoneering, which is why its an NPC class sort of thing. Oddly enough, alchemist don't do spell casting according to the rules.
Your eidolon build can do 0 zero damage in a round and still hit with every attack if your opponent has basic DR. It doesn't matter what else it can do or what your battery does for it. It is sad. If you want to show that eidolons are OP make one that can do decent damage and doesn't have a flurry of off-hand or secondary attacks. The barbar is laughing at your summoner. For an OP class, the martial shouldn't be laughing at you.
I can pass through 7 types of DR with my build : Magic (all), adamantine (one light mace), silver (2 light maces), cold iron (2 light maces), bashing (5 light maces and bite), slashing (claws and bite) and perforing (bite).
And a summoner, that can cast spells if needed (instead of watching the fight while flying thanks to Aspect, and drinking a cup of tea +1).
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The 7 types of DR you can bypass only apply to those specific attacks; all of the other ones are still screwed. The point of so many attacks is defeated if only a couple of them can actually do damage in the full attack.
My mistake you may reach double digits if you role high against decent DR.
Your eidolon build can do 0 zero damage in a round and still hit with every attack if your opponent has basic DR. It doesn't matter what else it can do or what your battery does for it. It is sad. If you want to show that eidolons are OP make one that can do decent damage and doesn't have a flurry of off-hand or secondary attacks. The barbar is laughing at your summoner. For an OP class, the martial shouldn't be laughing at you.I can pass through 7 types of DR with my build : Magic (all), adamantine (one light mace), silver (2 light maces), cold iron (2 light maces), bashing (5 light maces and bite), slashing (claws and bite) and perforing (bite).
And a summoner, that can cast spells if needed (instead of watching the fight while flying thanks to Aspect, and drinking a cup of tea +1).
Keep in mind, its not all at once and it still won't bypass aligned DR, which pops up quiet a bit if your fighting outsiders. Babau are something my friend complained about on his summoner. Only 2 attacks would bypass, unless you were good aligned and used evolution surge to get alignment smite, but that's only once per foe(twice at 10), and it eats up resources quickly. Alignment smite is new.
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@MrSin : I know. But I still have 70% of the character to play. The eidolon is only one part of the character powers.
For example, I could use Summon monster to get some monsters with smite evil, or banish it, or use any other spell I could use (I didn't make the summoner spell known list, so I will not make more theory, in order to prevent me from shifting to shroedinger's summoner). The eidolon is great, but it's only one feature.
And even if I couldn't/didn't want to use other abilities, this eidolon can still power attack, or use maneuvers, or anything that I could make up at that moment (depending on the creature). I mean, you can take way more risks when you know that if your creature is killed, it will come again tomorrow and can be healed in 1 minute (thanks to the wand). And that if it eventually dies, you can summon creatures in numbers that are the best to deal with the situation.
@Avh
Yeah go ahead and build a summoner that can both help out the eidolon and still do that 70% you're talking about. Throw in some WBL and no item slot sharing and you'll have a hard time doing half the things you are talking about.
Power attack gives your attacks some damage, but then you start hitting worse than a rogue. Who at that point is has more DPR than you. The barbar is still doing way better. A decent eidolon would be a different matter, but you tried to make one OP with too many attacks and ended up with a flurry of love-taps (or misses with power attack, welcome to monk tier).
Okay Marthkus. I take the challenge (I don't even know the real outcome yet). I will make a complete summoner (with all his features and abilities).
What is the level of the build ? 1 ? 5 ? 10 ? 15 ? 20 ? All of them ? What are the rules of creation ? 10 ? 15 ? 20 ?
I won't use 3PP books, cause I don't like them. Only the Paizo PRD.
I will take some time to do so that time, not make one in 10 minutes as I did for the last eidolon (I spent more time to put it in similar form than Bestiary than doing the eidolon itself).
I will create a new topic, as it will be different than the current topic.
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Something tells me that Marthkus isn't going to be convinced, even after you post said build.
Either way, good luck!
@Icy : thanks :)
Gate still cost money and nothing you said makes their casting better than a sorcerer. Summoners have severely nerfed sorcerer casting. Summoners don't have the money to buy rings or wizardry since they have to get magic items for their eidolon to keep it useful.
You assert this. I disbelieve this. Because - again - they have strong summoned monsters on call as standard actions. The eidolon can be your backburner b#*~$. Just from leveling you can net your eidolon an AC of 40 with no magic items and no Dexterity modifiers or feats or shields. Not a bad AC for someone not even trying. Except you actually begin with a 12 Dex on a Humanoid, and get an extra +8, so the AC is more like 45. Again, with no items. Strength 24 with no items and no buffs (I could get it to 32 Strength without items if I wanted to without changing its size category from medium or spending more evolution points).
Only a master summoner could abuse your ring trick.
Ring trick?
Summoners don't get discounted wands. No one sells wands made by summoners. No summoner picks up craft wand either.
Fine claims. Claims I don't buy. You can buy scrolls and wands by bards, paladins, rangers, etc. Always have been able to. Nothing in the rules sets summoners aside.
Sorcerers with the human favored class bonus get an average of 6 per spell level and have 3 more spell levels than a summoner (who's top two spell lvls only get 5). Furthermore sorcerers get bloodline spells.
Wasn't it you who criticized Avh for using a race to discuss the balance of a class?
Master summoner is only games breaking if you consider every fullcaster game breaking.
Oh except for the incredibly rapid-spamable nature of their ability crossed with their ability to keep their eidolon active as a meatshield while doing so, and enjoying 10 round / level summons.
Summoners are nice, but their casting is WAY too sub-par to be their primary class feature. Hence the SLA's and eidolon.
Not that their casting NEEDs to be their primary feature, since they have excellent casting AND are a 3/4 class with full-casting, AND have a pet that's very strong and customizable to your needs, AND have tons of bonus spells in the form of powerful SLAs that are filled with incredible versatility.
Summoners are not conjurer wizards. They are sorcerers with a summoning focus. Ofcourse they have non-conjuration spells on their list.
Yes, conjurer wizards are actually not as good at summoning, have shorter summons, and usually have to deal with banning a few spells rather than having great access to everything except Necromancy spells.
Can you honestly picture a summoner without the planar binding line? I mean out of all the classes out there, which one is most likely to consort with outsiders? And your telling me they shouldn't have those spells because real full-casters need to have no one that can compete with them?
If you read my initial posts I mentioned that I would have been okay with them giving them some method of using planar binding.
But summoners are over the top because they are so incredible powerful in so many areas. And they begin powerful. It's not even like wizards who are really crazy at high levels. They begin as one of the strongest classes in the game and also reach levels of "grilled cheese" at high levels.
If you read my initial posts I mentioned that I would have been okay with them giving them some method of using planar binding.
Personnaly, I would have given them Planar binding (permanent) instead of the eidolon, with CR of the creature that can be called evolving with the summoner level.
That's what I would have called a summoner. Not a creationist (=> the eidolon which doesn't fit any Pathfinder rules except its own).
If you read my initial posts I mentioned that I would have been okay with them giving them some method of using planar binding.Personnaly, I would have given them Planar binding (permanent) instead of the eidolon, with CR of the creature that can be called evolving with the summoner level.
That's what I would have called a summoner. Not a creationist (=> the eidolon which doesn't fit any Pathfinder rules except its own).
This reminds me of a cool mechanic my group used for something similar. We basically allow Paladins the option of a persistent summoned cohort rather than a horse or weapon specifically. So you can be a paladin who has a celestial lion for example, or at high levels have an angel or something for a cohort. :)
Anti-Paladins, oddly enough, have that mechanic, in a way.
The second type of bond allows an antipaladin to gain the service of a fiendish servant. This functions as summon monster III, except the duration is permanent and the antipaladin can only gain the service of a single creature and that creature must either have the chaotic and evil subtypes or it must be a fiendish animal. Once selected, the choice is set, but it may be changed whenever the antipaladin gains a level. Upon reaching 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, the level of the summon monster spell increases by one, to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level. Once per day, as a full-round action, an antipaladin may magically call his servant to his side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the antipaladin’s level. The servant immediately appears adjacent to the antipaladin. An antipaladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.
At 11th level, the servant gains the advanced template. At 15th level, an antipaladin’s servant gains spell resistance equal to the antipaladin’s level + 11.
This reminds me of a cool mechanic my group used for something similar. We basically allow Paladins the option of a persistent summoned cohort rather than a horse or weapon specifically. So you can be a paladin who has a celestial lion for example, or at high levels have an angel or something for a cohort. :)
that's actually pretty cool :) I would put it further for the summoner ('cause, you know, it would be the "main" feature of the class), but I like the idea of the cohort.
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@ Ashiel
We'll just have to disagree there. I picture summoners as full-casters with a focus on summoning. If they didn't get decent spells, they become locked into the eidolon battery role. Which is lame.
They still are not more powerful than actual full-casters and if they were given actual full-casting they would be OP.
They are overpowered right now. The funny thing is that they have most of the stuff that makes god-wizards god wizards to begin with. Their buffs are incredible. They have amazing summoning power (which adds both Hp and powerful action economy to your side). They have battlefield control (they get virtually all of the best battlefield control spells including all the pit spells, cloud spells, black tentacles, wind wall, glitterdust, wall of ice, etc). They get most of the best defensive spells (tons of illusion defenses, stoneskin, fire shield, spell turning, wall spells, etc). They even get some of the most powerful spells in the game (simulacrum, the planar binding line, maze). Mobility spells (from spiderclimb to overland flight to various teleportation spells). Then we can throw some good ol' fashioned mind control and a few druid spells in for good measure.
They get more spells known than a sorcerer for each given level (sorcerers get an average of 4 spells known per spell level, summoners get 6 spells known for every level, which is keen for them because they also get their spells discounted in level).
And the summoner gets more potent spell slots more frequently. But here's the second half of it. See, not only does the summoner get better returns for a high casting stat, get huge discounts on rings of wizardry in terms of power, have more spells known per level without using a specific racial favored class option, get discounts on scrolls and wands, and get massive discounts on metamagic rods (truly where one of the greatest offenses is born), but...drum roll please...
You get a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, and a creature that you can build to be...
You just banned the Summoner at any future games I run. ^_^
Rumors of the Summoner's OPness have been greatly exaggerated.
But you should only ever let a player you trust within 50 feet of the darn things.
I do feel the Summoner is overpowered, however it is really just how profoundly screwy the class is that makes it ban worthy.
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Rumors of the Summoner's OPness have been greatly exaggerated.
But you should only ever let a player you trust within 50 feet of the darn things.
I completely agree, but I think the dislike of the summoner is due to the fact it's a difficult class, with all of those evolutions and point counting. That said the whole point behind the summoner is not summoning, it's allowing the players to create and play their own monster. The eidolon isn't a class feature it's the character, the summoner is the class feature. That said I don't have a problem with the class being made somewhat simpler, although I do have a problem with it being removed, since it is the only class where you can create and play as a monster. It's by it's very definition unique, no the druid doesn't even come close.
I wish I didn't have to constantly defend the class, I remember before the APG class playtest even came out people said that summoners where overpowered and unnecessary, before they even seen it on paper, wow.
Anyone who thinks the new classes are better than a wizard druid or cleric are tripping hard.
I never say they are better. The summoner may indeed be less potent than a druid, cleric or wizard. But it is the most versatile class in the game, and by a great deal.
Oracle is about the only one that stands out as "wizard" tier powerful.
I don't know enough about the class. But I don't think Oracle is better than cleric (=> less versatility, despite cooler class features). He may be more potent, but Tier system is about versatility, not power.
but hey, whats the point of arguing about a topic like this when there are a lot of people out there who think the monk isn't just fine, but even powerful or overpowered. Paizo does not generally understand game balance at all, the thing that keeps me coming back to it is they at least understand synergy, and how to make sure most classes have it.
Amen. That is so true.
And well, ashiel, ashiel really doesn't know what he's talking about in terms of potency. sure, its much much better than a fighter, duh, but it is in no way as powerful as a full caster.
Again, not potence but versatility. The summoner can fill ANY roles, and multiple roles at the same time ALL DAY LONG (even wizards can't do that, and druid were nerfed enough not to be able to do that anymore. They even have spells, in addition to being able to fill multiple roles at the same time.
For starters, the cheaper spells you've been ranting about? that lowers the DC by 3 of any saves, and most of them indeed have saves.
So what ? They still have ALL the best spells in the wizard list. Only exceptions are Divination spells, shapeshifting spells and Time stop.
many of the highest level spells a summoner gets are pretty bad actually. you have some good ones but overall a good chunk of them will be circumstantial.
Then choose spells that are not circonstancials and buy the others in scrolls. You know, what every fullcaster does (and the summoner is a fullcaster, despite is 6th level spell list).
in terms of control effect spells, they only get the earliest ones, and by the time they have them the wizard and sorcs will be rocking force walls and fabricate, two very amazing spells,
Oh my god. Force wall and Fabricate. Two very amazing spells ? Come on.
they can also get ahold of things like transformation and wish while summoners get to pick the scraps of the worst 6th level spell list I've seen.
I agree with transformation (you mean polymorph subschool spells, not actual Transformation spell, are you ?), but wish ? Hell, I won't ever cast this spell, except if my DM is VEEEEEEERY open minded about it.
summon monsters are rather easy to dispatch with banishment type spells,
Which are one of the rarest spell category to be prepared by caster (except in special case), and maybe never learned by spontaneous casters. What a threat !
Wizards get metamagic bonus feats, crafting feats, and many class features that are very very potent, because they apply to a great veriety of situations.
Summoner get a whole character as a class feature. And it can be adapted every level if they want (unlike a familiar), and even between levels with a little cost. And they get class features like aspect, summon monster as standard action, transposition with eidolon at will, merge form, twin eidolon, and UMD (which allow them to use everysingle spell in the game if they want to). And I didn't even started to write about archetypes.
Summoners are a potent class for sure, but only if you compare them to the classes that need boosting up to be at wizard level of power, do they become "overpowered" seems more like full casters dont want anyone encroching on their territory as the awesomest.
Again, not overpowered : more versatile than tier 1 classes. And as tier system deals with versatility over power, they are a tier 0 class, ABOVE tier 1 classes.
Wizard can do anything, but seriously not more than 1 or 2 things in the same time. He will be god level when he does so.
Summoner can do everything, and everything at semi god level, at the same time.