Dimensional Hop


Rules Questions

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Dimensional Hop:
Dimensional Hop (Sp): At 8th level, you can teleport up to 10 feet per cleric level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought.

How many times can you use this ability per round? Once or twice?

It's listed as a spell-like ability. This suggests it's a standard action and therefore only usable once per round. However, the ability functions as a move action, which suggests that a cleric could use it twice per round (utilizing two move actions). Thoughts?

Shadow Lodge

If it's specifically described as a move action, it's a move action. Only spell-like and supernatural abilities that do not specifically have an action type stated are assumed to be standard actions - it's a default, not an ironclad rule.

Silver Crusade

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There is a discussion that using this ability provokes. My read is activating this is a move action and thus it does not provoke. What
does everyone say here?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

It's a spell-like ability, so activating it provokes an attack of opportunity (the way that casting a spell does).


Marius Castille wrote:
It's a spell-like ability, so activating it provokes an attack of opportunity (the way that casting a spell does).

If this is the case, it is a spell cast as a move action, which I believe is completely unprecedented, and whether it provokes is questionable as well.

Silver Crusade

It says the move action does not provoke, so if activating it counts as a move action, it does not based upon the description.


It says such movement (i.e. the movement granted by the ability) does not provoke, not the move action (i.e. activating the ability).

You do provoke when you activate the ability because that is the rule for spell-like abilities.
You do not provoke when using the movement the ability provides (an advantage over normal movement!) because the ability specifies otherwise.


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jbadams wrote:

It says the movement (i.e. the movement granted by the ability) does not provoke, not the move action (i.e. activating the ability).

As a spell-like ability, activating the ability provokes attacks of opportunity as usual.
However, the movement granted by the ability does not provoke, which is an advantage over normal movement.

A standard action spell or spell like ability provokes. This is a move action spell like ability.

Since spell like abilities follow the rules for spells in regards to provoking an attack of opportunity, this ability follows those rules. Swift action spells and spell like abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity, so the idea that this one provokes just because it is a spell like ability is an over simplification of the rule.

As far as I'm aware, there are no rules for a spell being cast as a move action and whether that move action provokes an attack of opportunity. This is a good FAQ candidate, imo.

This is an example of an ability that is not fully defined in the Pathfinder rules.

Note that in 3.5, the efficient spell feat allowed a spell to be cast as a move action, and did provoke. So there is *some* support for the action provoking, but that feat was not brought into Pathfinder.

Marius: I'd rule that this spell like ability provokes normally, even as a move action.


Quintain wrote:
Since spell like abilities follow the rules for spells in regards to provoking an attack of opportunity, this ability follows those rules.

Unless I'm mistaken this is incorrect; spell-like abilities don't follow the rules for spells in regards to provoking an attack of opportunity.

They have their own listing on the Actions in Combat table in the Combat chapter of the CRB (PRD link) which states they provoke. Note that the table author specifically listed that casting a spell provokes with 1 standard action casting time, but made no such note for Spell-like Abilities.

In the Glossary in the CRB (PRD link) we have the table Special Ability Types. Again, this lists Spell-like abilities as provoking attacks of opportunity. It makes no reference to any exceptions, and does not reference the rules for casting spells. Likewise, the definition of spell-like abilities (provided below) makes no such reference.

CRB Glossary Definition: Spell-like Abilities:
Quote:
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.

I can't find any relevant FAQ entries.
.
.
Can you provide any rules citation for your assertion that spell-like abilities follow the rules for casting a spell with regards to provoking?

You're correct that there are no rules for whether or not casting a spell as a move action provokes or not, and if there were such a spell that would make an excellent FAQ candidate, but I just don't see how it's applicable to this situation. Spell-like abilities are "very much like spells", but they are not spells and do not necessarily follow the same rules.


Actually, checking the table Special Ability Types in the Glossary again, I see the footnote clarifying the Attack of Opportunity" row specifies "Does using the ability provoke attacks of opportunity the way that casting a spell does?". I must concede this could be interpreted to support your position, although personally I still feel that the fact they chose to list the action types separately and with no additional notation on the table for Actions in Combat weighs in favour of not relying on the exception for spells that are not cast as a standard action.

Silver Crusade

Quintain wrote:
jbadams wrote:

It says the movement (i.e. the movement granted by the ability) does not provoke, not the move action (i.e. activating the ability).

As a spell-like ability, activating the ability provokes attacks of opportunity as usual.
However, the movement granted by the ability does not provoke, which is an advantage over normal movement.

A standard action spell or spell like ability provokes. This is a move action spell like ability.

Since spell like abilities follow the rules for spells in regards to provoking an attack of opportunity, this ability follows those rules. Swift action spells and spell like abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity, so the idea that this one provokes just because it is a spell like ability is an over simplification of the rule.

As far as I'm aware, there are no rules for a spell being cast as a move action and whether that move action provokes an attack of opportunity. This is a good FAQ candidate, imo.

This is an example of an ability that is not fully defined in the Pathfinder rules.

Note that in 3.5, the efficient spell feat allowed a spell to be cast as a move action, and did provoke. So there is *some* support for the action provoking, but that feat was not brought into Pathfinder.

Marius: I'd rule that this spell like ability provokes normally, even as a move action.

The description of the ability specifically says the move action for this does not provoke. Whether that move action counts as activating it is the question. I would have to say if activating it provokes, that makes the ability effectively useless.

Also, since similar effects like DimDoor or Teleport have movement which does not provoke (but the standard action of casting them does) then the statement that Dimensional Hop has a move action which does not provoke seems kind of redundant? Why add that in if it is just the same as other teleport effects?

Oh, and I agree it is a top candidate for a FAQ...


CRB p221 Spell-Like Abilities wrote:
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.

So, it is a standard action unless stated otherwise. Dimensional Hop states otherwise, it is a move action.

CRB p186 Spell-Like Abilities wrote:

Using a spell-like ability

works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration
and provokes attacks of opportunity.

It provokes unless a rule states otherwise.

CRB p47 Dimensional Hop wrote:
This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

The MOVEMENT does not provoke. It says nothing about the move action to cast it. As a result, casting Dimensional Hop falls under the rule that states it functions like a spell, and thus it provokes.

Use Casting Defensively to prevent it from provoking. The DC is (15+2*4 = 23). (The spell level of Dimensional Hop is 4th as per this FAQ.)

For those that state that since it is a move action to activate and thus it does not provoke please show a rule that states move action spells do not provoke. Only Swift/Immediate action spells do not provoke (CRB p213).


The text says that the 5-foot-increments movement you get from using it doesn't provoke. It says nothing about anything else not provoking.

As far as provoking goes:

CRB wrote:
If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + double the level of the spell you're casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.

Which is why Quickened Spells are very specifically explained to be an exception.

The table that lists 'cast spell as a standard action' comes with the disclaimer that it lists 'many of' the things that provoke, so it's not exhaustive. They were clearly trying to make sure people didn't read just that far in and then say 'yep, all casting provokes'.


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jbadams wrote:
Quintain wrote:
Since spell like abilities follow the rules for spells in regards to provoking an attack of opportunity, this ability follows those rules.
Unless I'm mistaken this is incorrect; spell-like abilities don't follow the rules for spells in regards to provoking an attack of opportunity.

From the Magic chapter:

Quote:


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.

Supernatural Abilities (Su)

These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas.

It is saying that spell-like abilities function like spells in all ways except those listed, and calls out Su abilities as being different for not provoking. So a SLA provokes if the equivalent spell would provoke.

Quote:
Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the spell's level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Quote:
Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

It calls out all spells that aren't free or swift actions as provoking AoO. It makes no special exception for move actions.

There is no special rule saying move actions don't provoke. Many do, such as standing from prone.

Conclusion: Dimensional Hop provokes. The rule that the movement doesn't provoke AoOs means that it at least doesn't provoke more than once (in the way that casting a ranged-touch spell while adjacent to an enemy does) and you can use Casting Defensively to avoid AoO entirely.


Hmm... slow night on the forums, rules-blood in the water. *Yawn*


Matthew Downie wrote:


...
In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
...

Point cheerfully conceded, thank you. :)

Silver Crusade

So why is the Paladin Detect Evil ability treated different?

Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

Everywhere I have played, the Detect Evil ability of the Paladin
is a move action, not a standard action to activate then a move action to concentrate.


Jokem, the Paladin's Detect Evil has TWO modes.

Mode 1: use Detect Evil as the spell (standard action with concentration required for subsequent rounds).
Note: concentration is a standard action, not a move action.

Mode 2: use Detect Evil as a move action on a single target to gain the benefits of 3 rounds of Detect Evil but only for that target. You do not need to have mode 1 going to use mode 2.

Mode 2 is the most common use for a paladin in order to determine if something is evil so they can smite it but if a paladin wants to walk around with Detect Evil going or if he wants to check an area for evil rather than a single target he has to use Mode 1.


Jokem wrote:
So why is the Paladin Detect Evil ability treated different?

Are they treated differently? They're both move actions that provoke AoO (when the Paladin is focused on a single target).

The Paladin Detect Evil question was dealt with by FAQ since there were multiple interpretations.


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jbadams wrote:

It says such movement (i.e. the movement granted by the ability) does not provoke, not the move action (i.e. activating the ability).

You do provoke when you activate the ability because that is the rule for spell-like abilities.
You do not provoke when using the movement the ability provides (an advantage over normal movement!) because the ability specifies otherwise.

Do you ever provoke from the movement of teleporting though. Or is teleporting ever referred to as "movement". I suspect the intention was for the ability to not provoke, but it was worded poorly.

But, I suppose it could be a case of restating an already existing rule. Maybe they are just reminding you that movement from teleporting doesn't provoke?

Silver Crusade

Nearly everyone here says the teleport ability of the Travel Domain
requires a standard action to activate, which provokes.

Gauss -
I am fully aware Paladin can detect evil in two modes. Read what I wrote again, and you will see I was talking about the second mode.

This is what I wrote -
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

Here is what Dimensional Hop shows
Dimensional Hop (Sp): At 8th level, you can teleport up to 10 feet per cleric level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought.

So it was clear I was discussing the second mode.

Matthew -
From the description of both abilities, they ARE treated
differently, since it specifically says the Travel Domain
movement does not provoke. The Paladin ability #2 says nothing
about the move action provoking, but since move actions which
are not movement have never provoked as far as I know. Maybe
there is an obscure case where that is not true

Mel -
I agree with you 100%, teleport type movement has never provoked
as long as I can recall.

Here is what I thought was obvious. The description of Paladin
ability 2 is virtually identical to that of the Dimensional Hop
ability. The FAQ clarification says Paladin ability 2 a move
action to activate. So why is the slight difference in the
wording important enough to require a standard action for
Dimensional Hop to activate?


Jokem wrote:
Nearly everyone here says the teleport ability of the Travel Domain requires a standard action to activate

Literally nobody is claiming that. (Aside from the original post from 2013.)


@Jokem
A Paladin's Detect Evil is a Spell-Like and provokes, if that's what you're asking.

Swift spells (and by extension, Spell-Likes) do not provoke, but no exception is make for move action spells. They still provoke and always have.

Silver Crusade

Matthew Downie wrote:
Jokem wrote:
Nearly everyone here says the teleport ability of the Travel Domain requires a standard action to activate
Literally nobody is claiming that. (Aside from the original post from 2013.)

OK, most people are saying it provokes. Only a few state it is a standard action. Many have said it is like casting a spell and

casting a spell is typically a standard action. This is really
splitting hairs. Either it provokes or it does not.

Silver Crusade

Quantum Steve wrote:

@Jokem

A Paladin's Detect Evil is a Spell-Like and provokes, if that's what you're asking.

Swift spells (and by extension, Spell-Likes) do not provoke, but no exception is make for move action spells. They still provoke and always have.

Expect for

Dimensional Hop (Sp): At 8th level, you can teleport up to 10 feet per cleric level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought.

Liberty's Edge

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The ability says that it does not provoke.

Semantic gymnastics about 'the movement does not provoke but activating the ability does' fall into the category of rules interpretation that I have no patience for.

Activating the ability causes you to move... ergo, if the movement doesn't provoke then the activation does not either... because they are the same action. There is only one action, of the 'move' type, in play. Either that single action provokes or it doesn't... ergo the text saying the movement doesn't provoke is identical in meaning to text saying the action doesn't provoke.

Silver Crusade

CBDunkerson wrote:

The ability says that it does not provoke.

Semantic gymnastics about 'the movement does not provoke but activating the ability does' fall into the category of rules interpretation that I have no patience for.

Activating the ability causes you to move... ergo, if the movement doesn't provoke then the activation does not either... because they are the same action. There is only one action, of the 'move' type, in play. Either that single action provokes or it doesn't... ergo the text saying the movement doesn't provoke is identical in meaning to text saying the action doesn't provoke.

I agree with you 100% on this. Someone needs to talk to the VC and VL

in my area for this.


It is not "semantic gymnastics" to state that activation provokes but the movement does not provoke. That is literally how actions in Pathfinder work.

Example 1: Charging does not provoke. But the MOVEMENT from charging provokes.

Example 2: Successfully casting Scorching Ray defensively does not provoke but shooting the rays provokes.

It isn't rules interpretation, it is how the rules work. AoOs are discrete. This ability has two possible AoO instances. Activation and movement. They clearly spelled out that the movement does not provoke.

Look at other effects that cause the target to move and you will find they have similar wording.

ISM p52 Bladed Dash wrote:
When you cast this spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet in a straight line any direction, momentarily leaving a multi-hued cascade of images behind you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Bladed Dash provokes when you cast it but the movement from it does not. Just like Dimensional Hop.


If you cast Bladed Dash, you get to move without provoking; but you still provoke by casting.

If you cast Scorching Ray with Point-Blank Master, then you don't provoke for shooting the ray; but you still provoke by casting.

If you cast Dimensional Hop, you don't provoke for the movement it grants; but you still provoke by casting.


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BadBird wrote:

If you cast Bladed Dash, you get to move without provoking; but you still provoke by casting.

If you cast Dimensional Hop, you don't provoke for the movement it grants; but you still provoke by casting.

The only real difference is that Bladed Dash makes you move, while Dimensional Hop is a teleport. Teleport movement already doesn't provoke. So, saying the movement doesn't provoke is redundant. A reasonable explanation for the redundancy is that it's the ability that is meant not to provoke, but that's not the only reasonable explanation.


Melkiador wrote:
BadBird wrote:

If you cast Bladed Dash, you get to move without provoking; but you still provoke by casting.

If you cast Dimensional Hop, you don't provoke for the movement it grants; but you still provoke by casting.

The only real difference is that Bladed Dash makes you move, while Dimensional Hop is a teleport. Teleport movement already doesn't provoke. So, saying the movement doesn't provoke is redundant. A reasonable explanation for the redundancy is that it's the ability that is meant not to provoke, but that's not the only reasonable explanation.

I would fully agree that the intent might have been that nothing provokes; it also may have been written exactly as intended. I wouldn't object if it was ruled to work without provoking by FAQ or by GM. As usual though, without knowing as a fact that the intent is otherwise, the rules are as they are given.


Melkiador,

Redundancy like this is repeated numerous times in Pathfinder. It isn't anything new and does not need explanation.

Example: ranged magical effects that obviously would not provoke an AoO for a combat maneuver (such as Forceful Hand, Telekinesis, Pilfering Hand, etc.) and yet include a statement that they do not provoke.

The presence of such a statement is not an indication of anything other than PF's standard redundancy to spell out everything that doesn't need to be spelled out and to not spell out things that does need to be spelled out. Go figure.

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

It is not "semantic gymnastics" to state that activation provokes but the movement does not provoke. That is literally how actions in Pathfinder work.

Example 1: Charging does not provoke. But the MOVEMENT from charging provokes.

Example 2: Successfully casting Scorching Ray defensively does not provoke but shooting the rays provokes.

It isn't rules interpretation, it is how the rules work. AoOs are discrete. This ability has two possible AoO instances. Activation and movement. They clearly spelled out that the movement does not provoke.

Look at other effects that cause the target to move and you will find they have similar wording.

ISM p52 Bladed Dash wrote:
When you cast this spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet in a straight line any direction, momentarily leaving a multi-hued cascade of images behind you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Bladed Dash provokes when you cast it but the movement from it does not. Just like Dimensional Hop.

Even if true it is thoroughly irrelevant to the discussion.

The discussion is about why Dimensional Hop and the Paladin
Detect Evil ability descriptions are virtually identical
yet treated differently.

Your examples of Charging and Scorching Ray resemble neither
of these. Both provoke and neither are spell-like abilities.
So I do not see how those examples clarify anything.

Bladed Dash does resemble Dimensional Hop, but the description
has significant differences.

What I want to hear from you (and anyone else contending with this)
is -
Do you think the Paladins ability we have been discussing and
Dimension Hop are described in virtually the same fashion?

If so why are they treated differently?
If not then explain why you think the descriptions are different?

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

Melkiador,

Redundancy like this is repeated numerous times in Pathfinder. It isn't anything new and does not need explanation.

Example: ranged magical effects that obviously would not provoke an AoO for a combat maneuver (such as Forceful Hand, Telekinesis, Pilfering Hand, etc.) and yet include a statement that they do not provoke.

The presence of such a statement is not an indication of anything other than PF's standard redundancy to spell out everything that doesn't need to be spelled out and to not spell out things that does need to be spelled out. Go figure.

Again, you have indicated irrelevant examples.

Forceful Hand does a Bull Rush attempt, so without the proper feat,
Bull Rush provokes. Therefore it is important to state that it does
not provoke.

Telekinesis can be used to perform Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, which
are maneuvers which provoke without the proper feat, so it is
important to clarify no AoO on those.

Pilfering Hand also performs special Feats which would normally
provoke. So same issue there.

You claim without the AoO wordage it is 'obvious' these would not
provoke. Without the special wording it is more likely these
would provoke than Dimensional Hop as far as I can see.

Silver Crusade

BadBird wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
BadBird wrote:

If you cast Bladed Dash, you get to move without provoking; but you still provoke by casting.

If you cast Dimensional Hop, you don't provoke for the movement it grants; but you still provoke by casting.

The only real difference is that Bladed Dash makes you move, while Dimensional Hop is a teleport. Teleport movement already doesn't provoke. So, saying the movement doesn't provoke is redundant. A reasonable explanation for the redundancy is that it's the ability that is meant not to provoke, but that's not the only reasonable explanation.
I would fully agree that the intent might have been that nothing provokes; it also may have been written exactly as intended. I wouldn't object if it was ruled to work without provoking by FAQ or by GM. As usual though, without knowing as a fact that the intent is otherwise, the rules are as they are given.

I think the only thing we can agree on is this Dimensional Hop

description is ambiguously worded and needs a FAQ.
So, can the rest of you here click this as a FAQ candidate and
maybe we might get a definitive answer.


Jokem, you can declare that they are irrelevant but they are not.

Forceful Hand, Telekinesis, and Pilfering Hand all perform combat maneuvers from a distance.
There is nobody to make an AoO ON. So why would they state that there is no AoO?
They regularly indicate things like that in all sorts of spells and effects even if doing so is completely redundant.
The relevancy here is 'does Pathfinder write redundant lines into their abilities?' to which the answer is a resounding YES.

Your not understanding the link between Charging, Scorching Ray, and Dimensional Hop is probably the main problem you are having here. The subject matter between those three are how do AoOs work and not any specific ability.
An ability or action can provoke in several ways. Removal of one of those ways does not impact the other ways in which it may provoke.

Charge: Does not provoke, but the movement does.
Rays: Activation provokes AND shooting the ray provokes. There are two here and negation of one does not negate the other.
Bladed Dash is basically identical. A spell that provokes but who's movement is stated to not provoke.

If you cannot see how these things are related then there is really nothing to discuss with you. I would suggest re-examining your understanding of AoOs.

Regarding a Paladin's Detect Evil:
The standard action version provokes when it is activated.
The move action version provokes when it is activated. Being a move action does not remove the fact it is a spell-like ability that provokes. There is no statement that it does not provoke.

Summary:
Dimensional Hop provokes an AoO when you activate it. The movement does not provoke.
A Paladin's Detect Evil ability (either mode) provokes an AoO when you activate it.


Jokem wrote:
I think the only thing we can agree on is this Dimensional Hop description is ambiguously worded and needs a FAQ.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't agree on point 1, and not really on point 2.

The way it's worded definitively establishes how it works; it's a Spell-Like Ability that you cast with a move action, and while the movement it grants you doesn't provoke, casting it does, as per casting rules.

While it doesn't 'need' an FAQ, I think an FAQ that changed how it works wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

Jokem, you can declare that they are irrelevant but they are not.

Forceful Hand, Telekinesis, and Pilfering Hand all perform combat maneuvers from a distance.
There is nobody to make an AoO ON. So why would they state that there is no AoO?
They regularly indicate things like that in all sorts of spells and effects even if doing so is completely redundant.
The relevancy here is 'does Pathfinder write redundant lines into their abilities?' to which the answer is a resounding YES.

Your not understanding the link between Charging, Scorching Ray, and Dimensional Hop is probably the main problem you are having here. The subject matter between those three are how do AoOs work and not any specific ability.
An ability or action can provoke in several ways. Removal of one of those ways does not impact the other ways in which it may provoke.

Charge: Does not provoke, but the movement does.
Rays: Activation provokes AND shooting the ray provokes. There are two here and negation of one does not negate the other.
Bladed Dash is basically identical. A spell that provokes but who's movement is stated to not provoke.

If you cannot see how these things are related then there is really nothing to discuss with you. I would suggest re-examining your understanding of AoOs.

Regarding a Paladin's Detect Evil:
The standard action version provokes when it is activated.
The move action version provokes when it is activated. Being a move action does not remove the fact it is a spell-like ability that provokes. There is no statement that it does not provoke.

Summary:
Dimensional Hop provokes an AoO when you activate it. The movement does not provoke.
A Paladin's Detect Evil ability (either mode) provokes an AoO when you activate it.

I find your manner of addressing me to be very condescending,

please stop talking down to me.

When I said your examples are irrelevant I was talking about
Scorching Ray and Charge. Scorching Ray is clearly a
Standard Action which provokes and Charging does not unless
passing through a threatened area. These are all clearly
defined in the rules.

Why does a Paladin's Detect Evil ability (mode 2) provoke when it
is not a standard action. It is a move action which does not
involve moving. I looked at the chart on what move actions
provoke and I do not see the paladins ability listed. I see
using spell-like abilities provoke, but this is listed under
Standard Action not Move Actions.

Forceful Hand, Telekinesis, and Pilfering Hand all perform combat
maneuvers which require a feat to do without an AoO. Some people will say this provokes. Thus the extra wordage to specify it
does not. I would claim it is ambiguous without the extra wording.
Let's assume the caster made his concentration check to cast one
of these. Thus, he gets away with a standard action without
provoking from the burly fighter next to him. Now he attempts a
combat maneuver with the spell which requires a feat to perform.
He does not have the feat. Without the special wording it is ambiguous whether this provokes or not. The rules say performing
a Bull Rush, etc. requires a feat to avoid the AoO. RAW, right?

You did not answer my questions.
Maybe I did not state it properly.

Do you think the paladin ability we have been discussing and
dimensional hop are both described as move actions?

If not, explain why the differences in wording are significant?

Here is the wording

Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

Dimensional Hop (Sp): At 8th level, you can teleport up to 10 feet per cleric level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought.

Keep in mind the FAQ says the Paladin ability does not require
a standard action to activate. No one who has said Dimensional
Hop requires a Standard Action has been able to reconcile this.


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Jokem, I was not talking down to you, I had assumed you had read the thread.

Since it appears you did not I will repost the relevant quote:

CRB p186 Spell-Like Abilities wrote:
Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity.

A Spell-Like Ability being a standard or move action is not relevant. A Move Action Spell-Like Ability provokes just like a Standard Action Spell-Like Ability unless there is a rule that states otherwise.

For reference, even swift action spells and spell-like abilities would provoke EXCEPT that they put this line in:

CRB p188 wrote:
Casting a spell as a swift action doesn’t incur an attack of opportunity.

You need a similar line to make move action Spells and SLAs not provoke OR wording in the ability that states that.

In short, since the action type is not relevant to whether or not SLAs provoke we have the following:

Detect Evil, used as a move action, provokes because nothing is in the rules to contradict the rule that SLAs provoke.

Dimensional Hop also provokes because nothing is in the rules to contradict the rule that SLAs provoke. It's comment about not provoking is only applicable to the movement.

You keep thinking that whether SLAs provoke has something to do with the action type. It doesn't and there is no rule stating it does (other than free/swift/immediate action spells/SLAs).


Gauss has it correct. The casting of a spell or use of a spell like ability is discrete from the spell/spell like ability's effect insofar as actions provoking attacks of opportunity is concerned.

An example of this is a caster casting scorching ray -- it provokes twice, once for casting the spell, and once for making a ranged attack in melee.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hmmm...
Following this thread for my conjurer/teleportation specialist, and his two similarly-worded abilities:

Shift:
Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

and
Dimensional steps:
Dimensional Steps (Sp): At 8th level, you can use this ability to teleport up to 30 feet per wizard level per day as a standard action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each additional creature brought with you.

I'm reading that the first one, Shift, doesn't provoke because (a) it's a SU ability and (b) it's a swift action. Maybe (a) is enough all on its own.
The second one is a Spell-like ability, takes a standard action to cast, and by the arguments presented in this thread it *does* provoke, presumably at the point of departure, not arrival.

The trouble with dimensional hop is that it casts as a move action, something which very very few Spell-like abilities appear to do. I agree that it's ambiguous, and that a FAQ would help a lot, but it seems as though casting it does indeed provoke an attack of opportunity, as well as offering the possibility of requiring a concentration check to avoid losing it.


Spell-Like Abilities work like spells, and spells provoke unless they have a swift action casting time. Being a move action to cast changes nothing about the rule that spells provoke.


The rule is not that only standard action or longer casting time spells provoke. The rule is that spells provoke. The exceptions are are swift actions, or unless otherwise stated.

Gauss is correct.


Just remember that SLAs can be done defensively.

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

Jokem, I was not talking down to you, I had assumed you had read the thread.

Since it appears you did not I will repost the relevant quote:

CRB p186 Spell-Like Abilities wrote:
Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity.

A Spell-Like Ability being a standard or move action is not relevant. A Move Action Spell-Like Ability provokes just like a Standard Action Spell-Like Ability unless there is a rule that states otherwise.

For reference, even swift action spells and spell-like abilities would provoke EXCEPT that they put this line in:

CRB p188 wrote:
Casting a spell as a swift action doesn’t incur an attack of opportunity.

You need a similar line to make move action Spells and SLAs not provoke OR wording in the ability that states that.

In short, since the action type is not relevant to whether or not SLAs provoke we have the following:

Detect Evil, used as a move action, provokes because nothing is in the rules to contradict the rule that SLAs provoke.

Dimensional Hop also provokes because nothing is in the rules to contradict the rule that SLAs provoke. It's comment about not provoking is only applicable to the movement.

You keep thinking that whether SLAs provoke has something to do with the action type. It doesn't and there is no rule stating it does (other than free/swift/immediate action spells/SLAs).

I read the CRB Page 186. Why did you leave this sentence out?

The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action unless the ability description notes otherwise.

And you did not answer my question. I assumed you read my entire post. Since it appears you did not I will repeat here.

Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

Dimensional Hop (Sp): At 8th level, you can teleport up to 10 feet per cleric level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought.

Keep in mind the FAQ says the Paladin ability does not require
a standard action to activate. No one who has said Dimensional
Hop requires a Standard Action has been able to reconcile this.

So I will try to be even more specific.
The rules say the paladin ability stated above is a move action.

My question, and please answer without suggesting I have not read the thread or discussion of Scorching ray or Telekinesis.

Why is Dimensional Hop not a move action to activate when virtually identical wording of the Paladin ability is?

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