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I've searched and read some of the threads here about crafting, and I've come to the conclusion that for the little extra gp a day job will bring it isn't worth investing points in a craft skill at the start for my Gnome Sorcerer. Maybe I've read the rules wrong, but for a Sorcerer it seems about the only worthwhile option is to wait until I've gained 5 PP and then invest in a caravan to use my Bluff for a day job skill. I was very keen on Alchemy, but from what I've read the Alchemist or Rogue with Poisoner archetype are the only classes that can craft poisons and really benefit from it. Considering you also can't craft anything magical that finished off my enthusiasm for it.
I generally enjoy crafting and roleplaying around it in my RPG games, but I'm feeling quite bummed about the restrictions on crafting in PF Society play. Unfortunately getting in on a private campaign right now just isn't an option. I also don't want to drop a few levels into another class just so I can craft poisons. Maybe I've overlooked something, so if anyone can give some ideas or suggestions of a craft that might be worthwhile for my Sorcerer, I'd love to hear them.
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If you put 1 rank in Craft, and have a 12 Int (or a second rank), you'll have +5. If you Take 10 on every Day Job, and played every scenario (instead of GM'ing), that will net you 330gp by the time you reach 12th level. That's probably worth it, if just barely.
A masterwork crafting tool costs 50gp, which would give you +7. If you roll, you'd average 16gp/scenario, or 490 total (net of the tool).
5 PP is worth approximately 1875gp. If your Bluff is roughly equal to 8+Lvl, you'll make approximately 1260 from 2nd to 11th level with that vanity. You would have to have a bluff of 14+Level, on average, to break even on the PP expense. That would be max ranks, +3 class, +3 circlet of persuasion (4500gp), and +8 Charisma, or +5 and skill focus.
Of course - you've converted PP to GP, which can be stacked together to buy bigger things, so there can be an advantage to this.
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The Craft skill will do nothing for your sorcerer but the Day Job roll and certain skill checks in scenarios.
Right. I realized that, but I'm wondering if I might have overlooked some craft that could work for a sorcerer to actually create something at the end of adventures? Similar to how the Alchemist of the Poisoner-Rogue can craft their poisons. From what I've read in terms of craft restrictions, magic items are out, bombs and poisons are out for all but the 2 classes previously mentioned and mundane items are out.
I'm just not sure of the other craft skills as to whether any of them might be useful to craft something at the conclusion of adventures. My INT is decent(+2) and I'm a Gnome with Obsessive (+2 in a specific craft), so a craft that actually creates something could be worthwhile for me.
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Well, somebody has to get on the thread and talk about the backstory of your gnome coming from a long line of vintners, which is why he's never sober, and why he walks with a limp (cask fell on his leg as a youth), and how he needs a couple of ranks in Craft (hootch) because it's in keeping with the character.
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Well, somebody has to get on the thread and talk about the backstory of your gnome coming from a long line of vintners, which is why he's never sober, and why he walks with a limp (cask fell on his leg as a youth), and how he needs a couple of ranks in Craft (hootch) because it's in keeping with the character.
lol. Well...my Gnome is actually from Yavipho in Kataphesh where they brew a mild hallucinogenic named Pho Pesh. So there's that. I doubt my GM would except Craft(hallucinogenic) though. :)
Nope, you won't be able to actually make items. Sorry. :(
Bummer, was afraid that might be the case. Being a Sorcerer really limits my skills, so I'm thinking I'll just scrap the idea of a craft and invest in a more play-mechanic based skill. Unless there's some craft that gets frequent use within adventures, but I really can't think of one.
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I like the flavor having a +27 craft jewelry for my gnome sorc... (+35 on dayjobs ;)
as for other "meaningful" craft... cartography is good one for a few missions.
and no... a day job is never mathematically worth putting gp/pp into.. but it is flavorful
alchemy was mentioned.. identify potions if you put no ranks in spellcraft
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As far as I know, there are only 3 exceptions to the no-crafting rule:
1. Alchemists can craft mundane alchemical items and poisons.
2. Gunslingers with a rank in Craft (alchemy) can buy discounted ammunition as if they had crafted it.
3. Wizards with an arcane bonded item can add magical enchantments to their item at a discount as if they were crafting it.
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3. Wizards with an arcane bonded item can add magical enchantments to their item at a discount as if they were crafting it.
I was just about to pop in and say that no, they actually have to make the appropriate Craft or Spellcraft check to do the enchanting themselves, but upon re-reading the PFS FAQ on the subject, there's no such reference to actually crafting. Am I forgetting a rule from elsewhere that says arcane bonded items are actually crafted, or did I just make that assumption?
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3. Wizards with an arcane bonded item can add magical enchantments to their item at a discount as if they were crafting it.I was just about to pop in and say that no, they actually have to make the appropriate Craft or Spellcraft check to do the enchanting themselves, but upon re-reading the PFS FAQ on the subject, there's no such reference to actually crafting. Am I forgetting a rule from elsewhere that says arcane bonded items are actually crafted, or did I just make that assumption?
You're the one with a level 11 Wizard/Eldritch Knight with a bonded item. You tell me!
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3. Wizards with an arcane bonded item can add magical enchantments to their item at a discount as if they were crafting it.I was just about to pop in and say that no, they actually have to make the appropriate Craft or Spellcraft check to do the enchanting themselves, but upon re-reading the PFS FAQ on the subject, there's no such reference to actually crafting. Am I forgetting a rule from elsewhere that says arcane bonded items are actually crafted, or did I just make that assumption?
*headscratch* Does it make a difference whether or not you crafted it besides the discount? Thats what campaign rules are trying to avoid, not the wizards ability to say "thanks, made it myself"
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as for other "meaningful" craft... cartography is good one for a few missions.
I have played through 1 session, so my considering dropping Craft(alchemy) is a tweaking. Craft(cartography) did come up in that 1st session for my faction (Osirion) quest, which I passed untrained. I wondered about whether it might come up again. I've certainly used it as a skill a fair amount in other RPG's.
alchemy was mentioned.. identify potions if you put no ranks in spellcraft
I initially had Spellcraft, but after discovering some of the limitations on it for my class I dropped it in favor of Use Magic Device which I now have at +8; still not 100% sure if that's a wise thing. There's 2 other PC's in my party with high ranks in spellcraft and I have the Read Magic cantrip, so there is that.
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You're the one with a level 11 Wizard/Eldritch Knight with a bonded item. You tell me!3. Wizards with an arcane bonded item can add magical enchantments to their item at a discount as if they were crafting it.I was just about to pop in and say that no, they actually have to make the appropriate Craft or Spellcraft check to do the enchanting themselves, but upon re-reading the PFS FAQ on the subject, there's no such reference to actually crafting. Am I forgetting a rule from elsewhere that says arcane bonded items are actually crafted, or did I just make that assumption?
Well it wouldn't have changed anything for him, as (if memory serves) the level requirement for the crafting feat for amulets is the same as the CL requirement to do the actual crafting, and that PC had a high Spellcraft anyway.
But it'll make a HUGE difference for my kitsune Arcane Duelist bard. At 5th level he gets to have an Arcane Bonded weapon like a wizard. But weapons work a little differently to craft.
For instance, to get a keen rapier, I'd need to be CL10, have keen edge as a spell known, and make a DC15 Spellcraft check.
Now, if I have to actually craft it, my DC jumps to 20 for not knowing keen edge (not on my class list, so no avoiding that), and if I like I can up the DC to 25 to skip the CL10 requirement and get it earlier. But I'll need a really good Spellcraft bonus to do it.
If instead I just enchant at half price, then I don't need to invest in Spellcraft at all, don't have to worry about the spell prereq, but also absolutely cannot get Keen any earlier than 10th level (unless I pay full price).
Neither way is ideal for that PC, but knowing which way to structure the PC around is pretty important.
:/
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as for other "meaningful" craft... cartography is good one for a few missions.I have played through 1 session, so my considering dropping Craft(alchemy) is a tweaking. Craft(cartography) did come up in that 1st session for my faction (Osirion) quest, which I passed untrained. I wondered about whether it might come up again. I've certainly used it as a skill a fair amount in other RPG's.
alchemy was mentioned.. identify potions if you put no ranks in spellcraftI initially had Spellcraft, but after discovering some of the limitations on it for my class I dropped it in favor of Use Magic Device which I now have at +8; still not 100% sure if that's a wise thing. There's 2 other PC's in my party with high ranks in spellcraft and I have the Read Magic cantrip, so there is that.
Craft and profession skills really don't come up very often in PFS. Once in a while, you'll see craft (alchemy) or profession (sailor), but those are the only two I can think of that I've seen more than once. I have let a PC use profession (librarian) while searching a records room, though. A good GM should let a PC shine if they happen to have the perfect skill for a job.
But for the most part, low skill classes like sorcerers and clerics really shouldn't be bothering with these skills that come up so rarely. Stick to the really useful stuff, and don't bother with a day job until you have the prestige to make one of your already useful skills into your day job.
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Level 5 DC 25 spellcraft seems pretty easy to make
Not entirely following you there CWheezy - is that a nod for dropping Spellcraft or the opposite? My understanding is I can use my Read Magic cantrip or Use Magic Device skill to do the equivalent of a spellcraft decipher. Unless of course you're referring to something else?
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Spellcraft is often very important for a caster. Counterspelling depends on it, as does reactions to spellcasting in other ways. Also, it lets you identify magic items. If you are comfortable with others doing those things, I guess you could get by with it.
As for the Arcane bonded item, you can craft the first enchantment on it at the cost, rather than the price. So you get a discount on it over buying a magic item. I believe this is about the only crafting of magic items allowed in PFS.
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Sorry, you use spellcraft to craft magic items, I wasn't clear on that.
Not entirely following you there CWheezy - is that a nod for dropping Spellcraft or the opposite? My understanding is I can use my Read Magic cantrip or Use Magic Device skill to do the equivalent of a spellcraft decipher. Unless of course you're referring to something else?
Right, but since I'm a Sorcerer and this is society play I can't do that anyways - at least that's my understanding.
I was saying that taking ten when you are level 5 should get you to the required dc fairly easily, but yes maybe it could be hard for a bard.
Ah, I see what you're saying now. That would only be possible with my Sorcerer at level 8 and only if I take the Magical Aptitude feat by level 7.
Spellcraft is often very important for a caster. Counterspelling depends on it, as does reactions to spellcasting in other ways. Also, it lets you identify magic items.
I can certainly see the importance in having it for counterspelling, but considering this aspect of it:
"To complete the action, you must then cast an appropriate spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself."I can't see being able to use that feature of spellcraft very often. As to the identifying of magical item, from what I've read it seems like these 2 possibilities with Read Magic
"You can decipher magical inscriptions on objects—books, scrolls, weapons, and the like..."
and Use Magic Device
"Activate Blindly: Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you're not and even if you don't know it."
have most of that covered, albeit the DC's with UMD seem to be 5 higher on average. UMD also lets you use spells that aren't included on your spell list. Also, based on my ability modifiers my starting UMD is +8 as opposed to +6 for Spellcraft. I'm sure there's other capabilities of Spellcraft I've missed, but with so few skill points at 1st level UMD seems to be a better choice. I 'm still strongly considering taking Spellcraft at level 2.
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Spellcraft is used in conjunction with detect magic (or identify) to identify magic items. Read magic allows you to decipher scrolls and writing (but not identify magic items.
Right, but wouldn't the possibility of using UMD to activate blindly alleviate some of that need to identify magic items? I realize there's the risk of a backslash with blind activation, but I'm very accustomed to that from other RPG's I play and can live with -actually enjoy- the risk. As I said above though, I'm sure I've missed some of the usefulness of Spellcraft, so I appreciate hearing about it's possibilities.
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Actually, depending on the item, you may need to do more than one UMD check. If the item requires a specific class ability, minimum attribute score, alignment, etc, it would require a check to activate blindly and another to mimic the needed requirement.
And you would need to do so EVERY time you want to use the item.
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Benefits of being trained in Spellcraft:
1) Identifying spells being cast - this requires NO ACTION and would allow you to know what was just cast when the effect is not apparent (or if a save was made) ... gives you insight as to what you might expect in upcoming rounds
2) Learn spells from a spellbook - would not apply to a sorcerer ...
3) Prepare Spell from Borrowed Spellbook - again would not apply to a sorcerer ...
4) Crafting Magic Items - does not apply to PFS ...
5) Determine Properties of Magic Item - 3 rounds to identify an object (DC 15 + item CL) ... comes in really handy to identify that wand/ring/weapon/armor/rod/staff/etc. you just found ...
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Also, please don't get me wrong. UMD is a great skill and every character should probably have one rank in it just to have the possibility to attempt to use a magic item (my main rogue PC is pretty much maxing this skill and is a wand wielding maniac).
The main drawback to UMD is if you do not have enough of a modifier to ensure a roll of 1 still results in success, rolling a 1 will keep you form using the item for 24 hours. That has bit me in the butt a couple times ...
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Actually, depending on the item, you may need to do more than one UMD check. If the item requires a specific class ability, minimum attribute score, alignment, etc, it would require a check to activate blindly and another to mimic the needed requirement.
Yep, those are the cons and it means my sorcerer probably won't realistically be able to handle higher than level 1 cleric/druid spell-based items before level 5.
And you would need to do so EVERY time you want to use the item.
True, but you do get a +2 bonus the next time you attempt another activation, so there's that 1 little perk.
I guess what I'm having a problem understanding, is how the Spellcraft skill helps make using magic items that much easier. I realize it can help me identify the item, but what then; am I then able to use it with the ease of a spell I know? And of course Spellcraft is never going to allow me to use Divine magic items - correct?
[Edit] Sorry, didn't see your replies before I finished my post.
The main drawback to UMD is if you do not have enough of a modifier to ensure a roll of 1 still results in success, rolling a 1 will keep you form using the item for 24 hours. That has bit me in the butt a couple times ...
Understood, but I'm coming from GM'ing and playing other RPG's where magic is much grittier and risky in general. While it's a setback to be denied use of an item for a day, I don't mind the roleplaying that's involved with those kinds of risks.
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Spellcraft isn't too important for a sorc, but like others have said, you should at least invest a few points in it. You can take 20 to decipher scrolls so you can free up a level 0 slot by not needing read magic. The ability to know what spells your opponent is casting should not be underestimated.
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Thanks for all the feedback. I think what I'll be doing is taking 1 - 2 ranks in Spellcraft and then take ranks in UMD all the way through. I'll also take Magical aptitude at level 5 or 7. The way I see it, by level 10 my sorcerer will be +21 in UMD and have a 60-50% chance on rolls to satisfy ability requirements for level 2 - 6 divine spells and a <= 20% chance to fail on blind activations; <= 10% for any items previously activated. Those are odds I can definitely live with.
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Once you hit a +19, you'll be able to use any wand of any type, which is a biggie (though using it blindly will still run a risk of failure).
And to answer your earlier question, once you have identified a magical item, your sorcerer would only need to use UMD if it is (1) a divine wand, scroll, etc or (2) it has a requirement for attribute, class ability, race or alignment that you don't otherwise meet.