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Heh. I can see it now. The GM introduces the paladin into the CoT game and immediately has the guy Fall. Just on the spot, no reason.
Not me. My backstory is that I turned myself in immediately after entering Cheliax like a good little paladin. Thus I begin the story being tortured by devils at the hands of Asmodean clerics. On occasion, I get to overhear them talking about what my party is doing! Best AP ever!
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"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority..."
Emphasis added. I doubt Paladins will consider a lawmaker that institutes a baby-eating law as a legitimate authority, any more than he would consider a prince of Hell a rightful lord.
Yup. Cheliax is basically an anarchy.
100%.
Eeeeeyup.
I find it interesting that Cheliax - which is the golarion state no doubt furthest away from the concept of an "anarchy", being basically a hell-bent fascist state, has a black and red diagonal flag, when that is the traditional flag of anarchosyndicalists.
It's a bit like if the church of saranrae would adapt the baphomet as holy symbol.
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In kingmaker, its kind of fun just how DIFFERENT two of our LG characters are.
LG is NOT one specific spot that everyone who is LG will agree about. My LG paladin respects laws, but choses good over Law on any day of the week. Sarenrae respects Free Will, and theres only so much he can FORCE people to reform... everything else has to be THEIR choice.
Our LG sorcerer is also Good, but beleives more heavily in order and Nobility. He prefers the Intimidate route to the diplomacy route. If he ever slipped in alignment, he'd hit LN.... I'd hit NG. We debate right and wrong quite often, but we're both in the LG range.
Point of fact though... Paladins only fall if they CHANGE their alignment... NOT if they perform an 'unlawful' act.
If the Law is Evil... A paladin does NOT DO IT. He is forbidden from willfully perfoming an Evil act. He only has to respect 'legitimate authority'. Not following an evil law should NEVER cause a Paladin to fall. Their code is not THAT strict.
Insane things I've been seeing here...
Paladins must obey all laws everywhere or fall.
Paladins can't kill LN people.
Paladins can't help the rebellion against the evil empire?!?
And sooooo much more, This thread is awesome. OBviously people have been a little starved for an alignment thread :P
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority..."
Emphasis added. I doubt Paladins will consider a lawmaker that institutes a baby-eating law as a legitimate authority, any more than he would consider a prince of Hell a rightful lord.
Ah now this man brings up a point of debate and doesn't just claim that paladins can ignore the law.
It would be entirely up to the GM what constitutes as legitimate government and what is honorable. Essentially your paladin class features are always in the GM's hands to be taken away at a moments notice. And that's at RAW tables.
Great stuff phantom1592, sounds like you have quite the group there and I could definitely see where both your Paladin and the LG Sorcerer can come from. A person could easily play a paladin either way too.
I've always felt that alignments were guidelines rather than straight-jackets. You want to follow them as close as possible, but one slip-up won't do you in unless it's a HUGE slip-up done on purpose.
Apparently you are right that people were starved for this kind of thread as we are already 15 pages in! Good fun, great discussion so far even if it has been derailed from the original question posed by the OP.
Point of fact though... Paladins only fall if they CHANGE their alignment... NOT if they perform an 'unlawful' act.
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features
LG paladins can fall from breaking their code. They don't have to change alignment to do that.
An evil dictator passes a law requiring Paladins to kill themselves. Failure to comply is punished by summary execution.
In Markus-land, he has just successfully destroyed all Paladins everywhere. They either have to follow the law, or turn themselves in for not following the law.
Point of fact though... Paladins only fall if they CHANGE their alignment... NOT if they perform an 'unlawful' act.A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features
LG paladins can fall from breaking their code. They don't have to change alignment to do that.
Read the first line of the code of conduct.
An evil dictator passes a law requiring Paladins to kill themselves. Failure to comply is punished by summary execution.
In Markus-land, he has just successfully destroyed all Paladins everywhere. They either have to follow the law, or turn themselves in for not following the law.
Petty Alchemy brought up a good point.
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority..."
You can't just willy nilly disregard the law, but most of these corner cases you guys are throwing out may fall under that clause.
Read the first line of the code of conduct.Point of fact though... Paladins only fall if they CHANGE their alignment... NOT if they perform an 'unlawful' act.A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features
LG paladins can fall from breaking their code. They don't have to change alignment to do that.
Read the second line.
Read the second line.Read the first line of the code of conduct.Point of fact though... Paladins only fall if they CHANGE their alignment... NOT if they perform an 'unlawful' act.A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features
LG paladins can fall from breaking their code. They don't have to change alignment to do that.
No.
No.Read the second line.Read the first line of the code of conduct.Point of fact though... Paladins only fall if they CHANGE their alignment... NOT if they perform an 'unlawful' act.A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features
LG paladins can fall from breaking their code. They don't have to change alignment to do that.
Well that explains your "answers" so far.
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Well that explains your "answers" so far.No.Read the second line.Read the first line of the code of conduct.Point of fact though... Paladins only fall if they CHANGE their alignment... NOT if they perform an 'unlawful' act.A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features
LG paladins can fall from breaking their code. They don't have to change alignment to do that.
My answers come from the fact that "No" you cannot have this one. You simply cannot have any victory here.
My answers come from the fact that "No" you cannot have this one. You simply cannot have any victory here.
Victory on the internet? What makes you think I even believe such a thing exist or that I'm dumb enough to try to attain it?
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Point of fact though... Paladins only fall if they CHANGE their alignment... NOT if they perform an 'unlawful' act.A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features
LG paladins can fall from breaking their code. They don't have to change alignment to do that.
This is my point. Breaking an unjust law does not change your alignment. Repeated and consistent disregard for the law WOULD change it... but 'not eating the baby' does not change his alignment. Performing a single Evil act does not Change your alignment either... However the code SPECIFICALLY calls out 'committing an evil act' as fallable. Unlawful... Chaotic... Neutral... None of these other possibilities are mentioned. Therefore if they don't cross the 'super-vague' RAW code... you don't fall.
In fact a part of that code is: help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
If a LN guard walked up and demanded you follow the law and sacrifice this baby... by the code, you NEED to save the innocent baby. If the LN guy gets in the way defending Evil... then he dies too.
Paladins have the god-given ability to TEAR EVIL UP!! However, even Neutral and Good people can die in combat if the Paladin is defending innocents. This is why I value Sense Motive over Detect Evil. DE really only tells me who my smite will work EXTRA good on. It does NOT tell me who is deserving of death. Their actions and the situation are what will determine that.
Turning around and leaving the city because he's not 'hungry for baby' isn't any more honorable and 'code worthy' than letting evil win on legal loophole.
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My answers come from the fact that "No" you cannot have this one. You simply cannot have any victory here.Victory on the internet? What makes you think I even believe such a thing exist or that I'm dumb enough to try to attain it?
The last 5 pages of this thread.
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"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority..."
Emphasis added. I doubt Paladins will consider a lawmaker that institutes a baby-eating law as a legitimate authority, any more than he would consider a prince of Hell a rightful lord.
Ah now this man brings up a point of debate and doesn't just claim that paladins can ignore the law.
It would be entirely up to the GM what constitutes as legitimate government and what is honorable. Essentially your paladin class features are always in the GM's hands to be taken away at a moments notice. And that's at RAW tables.
I don't think anyone ever claimed paladins can just ignore the law willy-nilly (aside from Ilja's initial hyperbole). We have re-iterated, ad nauseam, that paladins can ignore laws that are deemed unacceptable, and not stemming from legitimate authority. You have been countering our examples of fairly blatant illegitimate authority with, "Nope, they have to follow the law". You essentially said Paizo was wrong in Council of Thieves for allowing (nay, requiring) paladins to ignore the laws of Cheliax, by stating that the nation of Cheliax must have been in horrible anarchy for this to be acceptable (when nothing can be further from the truth).
No, paladins can't ignore individual laws. They have to ignore whole non legitimate governments to ignore 1 of their laws.
It's like how the US president can't veto part of a bill. Its all or nothing.
No, paladins can't ignore individual laws. They have to ignore whole non legitimate governments to ignore 1 of their laws.
It's like how the US president can't veto part of a bill. Its all or nothing.
RAW?
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RAW?No, paladins can't ignore individual laws. They have to ignore whole non legitimate governments to ignore 1 of their laws.
It's like how the US president can't veto part of a bill. Its all or nothing.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Yeah. RAW says nothing about unjust laws. You can't pick and choose what parts of the law you follow. The law is either legitimate or it is not.
Ah now this man brings up a point of debate and doesn't just claim that paladins can ignore the law.
Oh, sorry, were we debating? It was kinda hard to tell.
What makes you think I even believe such a thing exist or that I'm dumb enough to try to attain it?
I shouldn't answer this, should I?
This thread, and your posts on--darnit, Marshmallow!
RAW?No, paladins can't ignore individual laws. They have to ignore whole non legitimate governments to ignore 1 of their laws.
It's like how the US president can't veto part of a bill. Its all or nothing.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Yeah. RAW says nothing about unjust laws. You can't pick and choose what parts of the law you follow. The law is either legitimate or it is not.
You seem to be stuck on the idea that 'Respect' = 'mindlessly obey.' By your definition, Captain America wouldn't have done anything at a concentration camp.... or ever attack a Nazi, after all they are just doing their jobs. And of course Hitler was the legitimate authority over Germany...
You seem to be stuck on the idea that 'Respect' = 'mindlessly obey.' By your definition, Captain America wouldn't have done anything at a concentration camp.... or ever attack a Nazi, after all they are just doing their jobs. And of course Hitler was the legitimate authority over Germany...RAW?No, paladins can't ignore individual laws. They have to ignore whole non legitimate governments to ignore 1 of their laws.
It's like how the US president can't veto part of a bill. Its all or nothing.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Yeah. RAW says nothing about unjust laws. You can't pick and choose what parts of the law you follow. The law is either legitimate or it is not.
1) Captain America was not a paladin. He is just LG. Paladins have their own code on top of that.
2) If Nazi Germany was not legitimate authority, then you can argue a paladin acting against it. That goes into the ethics of war and other matters of debate.
Paladin and the party doesn't enter the city. Problem solved. Or they leave city do to ignorance of the law. That or they submit themselves to the authorities for breaking the law. They don't eat the baby.
Again more weird corner cases.
In American law, Ignorance of the law means nothing. Still committed crime (till proven guilty not punished though).
Breaking a law doesn't make a paladin fall though.
Not if he makes this a habit, then the DM might make him no longer Lawful.
You seem to be stuck on the idea that 'Respect' = 'mindlessly obey.' By your definition, Captain America wouldn't have done anything at a concentration camp.... or ever attack a Nazi, after all they are just doing their jobs. And of course Hitler was the legitimate authority over Germany...RAW?No, paladins can't ignore individual laws. They have to ignore whole non legitimate governments to ignore 1 of their laws.
It's like how the US president can't veto part of a bill. Its all or nothing.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Yeah. RAW says nothing about unjust laws. You can't pick and choose what parts of the law you follow. The law is either legitimate or it is not.
DAMN YOU GODWIN'S LAW!!!! YOU WIN AGAIN!!!!
And we were doing so good too.
Paladin and the party doesn't enter the city. Problem solved. Or they leave city do to ignorance of the law. That or they submit themselves to the authorities for breaking the law. They don't eat the baby.
Again more weird corner cases.
In American law, Ignorance of the law means nothing. Still committed crime (till proven guilty not punished though).
Breaking a law doesn't make a paladin fall though.
Not if he makes this a habit, then the DM might make him no longer Lawful.
He still has to respect the law. A paladin would never enter that city again knowing baby eating was required. Unless the government was no longer legitimate.
Although apparently if the babies were goblins or some other evil race, the paladin is obligated to leave and enter the city all day until he eats all the babies.
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Basically, the problem with Marthkus's view is that he seems to think paladins need to be held to such a high standard that there are only about two ways to play them.
Sadly, thanks to his hastily revising his position on Law, it's harder to use him as comic relief now. I guess we can just keep in mind that this is the guy advocating for the Society for Total Undead Protection and Integration Discussion.
And now he's trying to claim that the only way to redeem a paladin is to have him eat goblin babies. Okay, he's funny again.
Basically, the problem with Marthkus's view is that he seems to think paladins need to be held to such a high standard that there are only about two ways to play them.
Sadly, thanks to his hastily revising his position on Law, it's harder to use him as comic relief now. I guess we can just keep in mind that this is the guy advocating for the Society for Total Undead Protection and Integration Discussion.
And now he's trying to claim that the only way to redeem a paladin is to have him eat goblin babies. Okay, he's funny again.
Someone did tell me that paladins can stab goblin babies all day. Not only that, but certain paladins were REQUIRED to.
As for my position on Law. Petty Alchemist brought up a good point. You still can't ignore individual laws, but you can ignore whole governments. Provided that they are not a legitimate authority.
Ah, the misrepresenting of arguments and involvement of separate threads debates. That should save your case.
Someone did tell me that paladins can stab goblin babies all day. Not only that, but certain paladins were REQUIRED to.
As for my position on Law. Petty Alchemist brought up a good point. You still can't ignore individual laws, but you can ignore whole governments. Provided that they are not a legitimate authority.
Alright, let's 'settle this'.
Paladins are allowed to break laws. Nothing in the paladin alignment disallows them from breaking laws. "Lawful Good" does not automatically ban you from breaking the law.
There. We done now? No? 'kay, let's continue.
1) Captain America was not a paladin. He is just LG. Paladins have their own code on top of that.
2) If Nazi Germany was not legitimate authority, then you can argue a paladin acting against it. That goes into the ethics of war and other matters of debate.
Really? Captain America wouldn't be statted as a Paladin in your games? He's all about High charisma, Leadership, and having a stricter code then any other heroes.
But... Ok, whatever... How about superman? Or better yet, what character... anywhere would live up to the standards you seem to be insisting upon?
Then, I'd like to know how he would deal with said concentration camps and nazis.
And no, before you say "Respect legitimate authority" counts, it doesn't. That means what it says: you must respect authority. It does not mean you will lose your paladin powers for breaking curfew once in a while.
Sorry, Phantom. Superman is a vigilante and therefore can't be a proper paladin.
Someone did tell me that paladins can stab goblin babies all day. Not only that, but certain paladins were REQUIRED to.
As for my position on Law. Petty Alchemist brought up a good point. You still can't ignore individual laws, but you can ignore whole governments. Provided that they are not a legitimate authority.
Alright, let's 'settle this'.
Paladins are allowed to break laws. Nothing in the paladin alignment disallows them from breaking laws. "Lawful Good" does not automatically ban you from breaking the law.
There. We done now? No? 'kay, let's continue.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
If breaking the law is him not respecting a legitimate authority he falls.
That hypothetical syllogism is not necessarily true in the opposite direction. I find that most people will assume that someone asserts the inverse of their IF/THEN statement as true, when in fact it is not a bi-directional statement.
1) Captain America was not a paladin. He is just LG. Paladins have their own code on top of that.
2) If Nazi Germany was not legitimate authority, then you can argue a paladin acting against it. That goes into the ethics of war and other matters of debate.
Really? Captain America wouldn't be statted as a Paladin in your games? He's all about High charisma, Leadership, and having a stricter code then any other heroes.
But... Ok, whatever... How about superman? Or better yet, what character... anywhere would live up to the standards you seem to be insisting upon?
Then, I'd like to know how he would deal with said concentration camps and nazis.
Superman is the closest thing you can find to a non-paladin paladin. Although he will not lose all of his power if he should fall. Many DC hero's have codes that they follow that are beyond what LG requires. For example Batman does not kill. Could he kill and still be LG? In many cases yes, but then he wouldn't be the Batman that we know and love.
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I'm gonna read this thread any time I feel sad.
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Superman is the closest thing you can find to a non-paladin paladin. Although he will not lose all of his power if he should fall. Many DC hero's have codes that they follow that are beyond what LG requires. For example Batman does not kill. Could he kill and still be LG? In many cases yes, but then he wouldn't be the Batman that we know and love.
Superman breaks America's laws all the time. He runs around far faster than the speed limit, flies through the air with no regard for FAA regulations. Destroys property (often in fights) and does not reimburse the rightful owners. By your logic, Superman doesn't consider the American government to be a legitimate authority (obeying the law is all or nothing), and wants to overthrow the American government. That completely changes how I view Superman.
On a slightly more serious note... When Luthor was President of the United States, he gave MANY orders that Superman simply would not do. He trusted the legal system to take of itself, but he refused to be manipulated by it.
When the law was evil, He broke a lot more laws. And he did so without any angsty guilt over a code. He does HAVE a code... but opposing evil authority is NOT a violation of it.
Superman is the closest thing you can find to a non-paladin paladin. Although he will not lose all of his power if he should fall. Many DC hero's have codes that they follow that are beyond what LG requires. For example Batman does not kill. Could he kill and still be LG? In many cases yes, but then he wouldn't be the Batman that we know and love.Superman breaks America's laws all the time. He runs around far faster than the speed limit, flies through the air with no regard for FAA regulations. Destroys property (often in fights) and does not reimburse the rightful owners. By your logic, Superman doesn't consider the American government to be a legitimate authority (obeying the law is all or nothing), and wants to overthrow the American government. That completely changes how I view Superman.
Now your being ridiculous. The transportation laws apply to vehicles not people.
He's under good Samaritan laws when he helps people (which vary by state). Furthermore you are always allowed to act when you "fear for their life". Which I like to point out, when Superman damages property it is to save lives.
Furthermore the Government has not told Superman to stop. Should they do and he continues to do his hero thing anyways, at that point he no longer considered the USA a legitimate authority.
Actually very recently Superman renounced his US citizenship in the comic books. A very paladin move. If you no longer approve of what a country is doing, you don't claim to be a part of it.
On a slightly more serious note... When Luthor was President of the United States, he gave MANY orders that Superman simply would not do. He trusted the legal system to take of itself, but he refused to be manipulated by it.
When the law was evil, He broke a lot more laws. And he did so without any angsty guilt over a code. He does HAVE a code... but opposing evil authority is NOT a violation of it.
Weirdly the President can't order civilians around like he is their God-King. Lex would need a court order before Superman would need to follow that order to respect authority. At which point a paladin would have to figure out whether or not that government was a legitimate authority. Superman is not a paladin though and does not risk losing his powers over such a matter.
Weirdly the President can't order civilians around like he is their God-King. Lex would need a court order before Superman would need to follow that order to respect authority. At which point a paladin would have to figure out whether or not that government was a legitimate authority. Superman is not a paladin though and does not risk losing his powers over such a matter.On a slightly more serious note... When Luthor was President of the United States, he gave MANY orders that Superman simply would not do. He trusted the legal system to take of itself, but he refused to be manipulated by it.
When the law was evil, He broke a lot more laws. And he did so without any angsty guilt over a code. He does HAVE a code... but opposing evil authority is NOT a violation of it.
No.
No.Weirdly the President can't order civilians around like he is their God-King. Lex would need a court order before Superman would need to follow that order to respect authority. At which point a paladin would have to figure out whether or not that government was a legitimate authority. Superman is not a paladin though and does not risk losing his powers over such a matter.On a slightly more serious note... When Luthor was President of the United States, he gave MANY orders that Superman simply would not do. He trusted the legal system to take of itself, but he refused to be manipulated by it.
When the law was evil, He broke a lot more laws. And he did so without any angsty guilt over a code. He does HAVE a code... but opposing evil authority is NOT a violation of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc
Weirdly the President can't order civilians around like he is their God-King. Lex would need a court order before Superman would need to follow that order to respect authority. At which point a paladin would have to figure out whether or not that government was a legitimate authority. Superman is not a paladin though and does not risk losing his powers over such a matter.On a slightly more serious note... When Luthor was President of the United States, he gave MANY orders that Superman simply would not do. He trusted the legal system to take of itself, but he refused to be manipulated by it.
When the law was evil, He broke a lot more laws. And he did so without any angsty guilt over a code. He does HAVE a code... but opposing evil authority is NOT a violation of it.
You have heard of executive orders? They are law till congress disagrees and votes to block them.
Weirdly the President can't order civilians around like he is their God-King. Lex would need a court order before Superman would need to follow that order to respect authority. At which point a paladin would have to figure out whether or not that government was a legitimate authority. Superman is not a paladin though and does not risk losing his powers over such a matter.
I'm very disappointed in myself. I tried to find a clip from Hitchhiker's guide dealing with the overbearing inane bureacrats and the endless forms (in triplicate)... but my search-fu is weak today.
However, The president has a MASSIVE amount of power that does not need to go through the system. Lex may have tried to use more than his due... but as President he was a serious threat.
Also, Vigilantism has always been against the law in DC... most cops are happy for the help and look away, but everytime the government gets involved there is chest thumping an finger pointing.
Superman did not NEED to wrap that lightpole around the bad guy who was knocked out... He did not NEED to interfere with due process... and some comics like to point out that superman (and other heroes) can't really testify in court against criminals because their identity isn't public record.
He breaks laws all the time... he just does it because its the right thing to do.
Actually very recently Superman renounced his US citizenship in the comic books. A very paladin move. If you no longer approve of what a country is doing, you don't claim to be a part of it.
Ironically, Clark Kent did not renounce his citizenship... Which technically means 'superman' and 'Kal-el' were never actually citizens with paperwork anyway...
You have heard of executive orders? They are law till congress disagrees and votes to block them.Weirdly the President can't order civilians around like he is their God-King. Lex would need a court order before Superman would need to follow that order to respect authority. At which point a paladin would have to figure out whether or not that government was a legitimate authority. Superman is not a paladin though and does not risk losing his powers over such a matter.On a slightly more serious note... When Luthor was President of the United States, he gave MANY orders that Superman simply would not do. He trusted the legal system to take of itself, but he refused to be manipulated by it.
When the law was evil, He broke a lot more laws. And he did so without any angsty guilt over a code. He does HAVE a code... but opposing evil authority is NOT a violation of it.
Do cite all the court cases where people were sentenced to prison for disobeying an executive order.
Regardless Superman is not a Paladin. Paladins do have to respect the words of a "legitimate authority" king. Superman will not lose his powers if he breaks the paladin's code. Especially considering that the paladin's code is not Superman's. For example Paladins can kill. Superman does not. Paladins respect legitimate authority. Superman respects democracies when they coincide with his personal code.