Hi all,
At the end of our session last night, all the ECL 1 characters had earned enough XP to level. I plan to let everyone level in-dungeon. Changes to HP/BAB/saves/skills will be effective immediately, as will new feats and class features be available. To get new spells, however, casters will need to rest.
1. Can anyone see any problems with this method? I think it makes sense for the difficulty of the adventure and the time crunch to find the kidnapped children.
2. More specifically, how should I handle new spells for the two wizards? Can I work it so they don't need 1/day per new spell to scribe? That seems like a big limitation of the wizard class.
Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions.
Best,
Ully
What you describe is exactly how we've been doing our leveling up, with no problems.
I let our wizard add the two spells to his spellbook immediately; consider it as something he's been researching (or just meditating on) for a while, and has now figured out.
But then, I also reduced the cost of scribing spells (25gp/spell level, and only one page per spell level) and don't require massive amounts of time (basing it on magic item costs, a day for 1000gp worth would be 40 spell levels with the lower cost I charge for scribing, divide by 8 = 5 spell levels per hour to scribe a new spell). YMMV.
|
I severely dislike any other method of leveling than what you described. Having to pay for training and training for X amount of weeks is a house rule that is listed in the core books as an alternative to just allowing PCs to level-up.
I always just say that the wizards have been researching and working on scribing the spells that they learn each level the whole time before they level and they finally "get it" when they level, they figure out that by bending the magical fold just so that they can achieve what they were attempting.
I like fun not strenuous, arduous bookkeeping.
FH
Thanks very much for the opinions; I appreciate hearing them.
I will just allow the new spells that wizards get at each new level to "magically flow from the quill and onto the pages of their spellbooks" so to speak. I may require some extra time when they first memorize those spells.
I forgot to mention that I had already house-ruled out the 100gp cost per spell of scribing spells into spellbooks. I felt that was an unfair limitation at low levels and nothing but a record-keeping nuisance at higher levels. Scribing scrolls, however, still costs money and XP.
|
|
I won't allow characters to gain the full benefits of some Prestige Classes in the field. If a character has never met a member of the Order of the Bow, for example, she'd need to find one and petition before being initiated into the Order's mysteries.
Agreed, any delineation of class from one the PC is inherently familiar with needs roleplaying and/or someone to show the way, but if you just wanna go from fighter6 to fighter7, or sorcerer 4 to sorcerer5, or Druid2/Barbarian3 to Druid3/Barbarian3, then go for it.
FH
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
...which leads to the question: do you allow characters to *not* rise in level once they hit the XP point?
(So, a 5th Level character hits, 15,000 XP and is ready to advance to 6th, can she choose to wait at 5th level? If so, does she still accumulate XP? As a 5th-level character or 6th?)
My campaign: yes, for some of the reasons mentioned above. She is still functioning at 5th level, so she accumulates XP appropriately (with a cap at 21,000, so she can't ever pop more than 2 levels at once), but she *could* be 6th level if she chose, so I choose the EL of parties as if she were 6th.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I severely dislike any other method of leveling than what you described. Having to pay for training and training for X amount of weeks is a house rule that is listed in the core books as an alternative to just allowing PCs to level-up.
I always just say that the wizards have been researching and working on scribing the spells that they learn each level the whole time before they level and they finally "get it" when they level, they figure out that by bending the magical fold just so that they can achieve what they were attempting.
I like fun not strenuous, arduous bookkeeping.FH
You really creep me out when you post something so reasonable that I can agree completely. Knock it off.
I require my players to have a full nights rest to gain the new level. Once they have enough XP, they gain a "positive level" (the exact opposite of a negative level) until they can rest a full 8 hours.
So far, it is has worked well.
I also only hand out XP at the end of each session, not as they earn it.
-c
I seem like a lone wolf here but I don't allow my players to level up completely mid adventure.
I allow them to increase profiency in an already learnt skill, improve their hit points, base attacks and spell usage but anything new, I reason, needs to be taught.
When a player wants to learn a new feat, skill or ability I judge that they need to seek out a trainer. They pay a certain fee (100gp per CL I think) and usually spend a couple of weeks training, though this depends on what is transpiring in the campaign at that point.
The benefits the game and players in particular gain from the training is mostly in roleplaying terms.
One character formed a strong relationship with Alek when she requested that he train her and then sort out Skylar to teach her weapon skills when Alek mysteriously went missing.
I was able to introduce my good rogue organisation, called the Acquirers, by having the party rogue seek out a thief who wasn't part of the LL to train him. Now the organisation is an important element of the overall plot in the city.
The ranger has become closely interlinked with the Striders and this regular training allows me to foreshadow futher events and for her to regularly reconnect with the group.
So overall while I believe levelling up throughout an adventure is easier I think you miss out on the roleplay, connections and additional foreshadowing opporunities such a regular exercise training provides.
As always you need to make the rules, methods and SCAP fit you and your party.
Delvesdeep
|
I use pretty much the same method as Clint - I give xp at the end of a session, and allow levelling up at any point when the characters are able to get a decent night's rest. I don't know that that method is any *better* than any other method, or that it really makes much more sense than levelling at any time, but it makes sense to me. The character has a chance to rest, ruminate over the day's events and what they have recently experienced, practice a few new moves, etc. etc.
Its pretty rare that I allow a party to get a good rest in the middle of a dungeon or something, so generally they need to make it back to base camp or town to level up, but i think the first few adventures in Shackled City lend themselves pretty well to this philosophy.
I think the APs are designed so that the characters really do need to level up mid adventure - I know my first level partythat started Life's Bazaar would not likely have survived the Malachite Fortress had they not hit level 3 by that point.
As for what has been suggested for wizards, I think its fair enough in the APs (especially this one), wizards are at too much of a disadvantage otherwise.
Don't use XP, but I tell my PCs when they can level and it can be done in mid adventure.
That said, all effects form levelling take place immediately. New spell slots become available, allowing the casters to fill them immediately if the take a couple of minutes to study or meditate.
In my campaign, wizards do not gain 'free' spells in their spellbook. They have to take the required time to write them. Rulewise there is even nothing against writing a spell of a higher level in your spellbook already, so you could anticipate levelling by adding the spell beforehand. If the wizard does not have any spells of the level he has now acquired, he can still fill it with lower level spells, so he would still gain from that.
I will just allow the new spells that wizards get at each new level to "magically flow from the quill and onto the pages of their spellbooks" so to speak. I may require some extra time when they first memorize those spells.
The explanation I use is that spell books aren't like cook books--you can't just turn to the Fireball page and rip it out. They're research notes, which get studied over and over again. When you make a level, a couple spells occur to you based off of your enhanced understanding of the existing notes. When you scribe a spell, it's like copying somebody else's notes.
And I really like the idea of giving people a positive level if they get enough to level up in one day, so they can be tougher in the afternoon than they were in the morning, but I think it would probably add more recordkeeping & numbercrunching than would be balanced out by enhanced player satisfaction--if they consistently go through big enough fights that several people are ready to level, chances are they need to rest anyway and they go hide in a quiet place to rest & level.
Don't use XP, but I tell my PCs when they can level and it can be done in mid adventure.
That said, all effects form levelling take place immediately. New spell slots become available, allowing the casters to fill them immediately if the take a couple of minutes to study or meditate.
The rules provides an option to fill empty spell slots:
When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.
I created a house clarafication to apply this rule for new spell slots coming from leveling and also for spellcasters other than wizards.
I believe in the Ding.
The same group I'm running has been playing in an outstanding home-grown campaign, where the PCs are all members of an elite drow special ops force. The DM, who is now one of my players, used hired-trainer and self-training between levels. You had to make a roll to successfully level up after a week's training time; if you had a trainer, you received a bonus.
This worked fine for a few levels, as the PCs had a home base, and trainers were available for just over half the classes.
After a while, though, we found ourselves increasingly away from our home base and unable to train. After a few levels of frustration, the DM eliminated the training rules, and the players (and DM) were much happier.
There's no way I could use training rules with this group, nor would I want to. I can see where there could be some role-play benefits, but I also see that being more limited to lower levels. After a certain point, you're the best fighter/rogue/whatever around, but you still get better *by doing*.
Your mileage may vary.
Something else I've done for my SCAP campaign is to give the players a chart for planning level progression ahead of time. They've filled these out to about level 12 or so, and when they find out mid-game that they're levelling up, all they have to do is record the changes listed; there's no huge angst associated with figuring out what class to take, or what feats; it's all planned out already.
My players are all required to bring their next level character sheet with them to each session. We all use the excellent HeroForge Excel spreadsheet (available from http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/), so it's pretty easy to have another sheet printed up and ready to go.
I seem like a lone wolf here but I don't allow my players to level up completely mid adventure.
I allow them to increase profiency in an already learnt skill, improve their hit points, base attacks and spell usage but anything new, I reason, needs to be taught.
When a player wants to learn a new feat, skill or ability I judge that they need to seek out a trainer. They pay a certain fee (100gp per CL I think) and usually spend a couple of weeks training, though this depends on what is transpiring in the campaign at that point.
The benefits the game and players in particular gain from the training is mostly in roleplaying terms.
One character formed a strong relationship with Alek when she requested that he train her and then sort out Skylar to teach her weapon skills when Alek mysteriously went missing.
I was able to introduce my good rogue organisation, called the Acquirers, by having the party rogue seek out a thief who wasn't part of the LL to train him. Now the organisation is an important element of the overall plot in the city.
The ranger has become closely interlinked with the Striders and this regular training allows me to foreshadow futher events and for her to regularly reconnect with the group.
So overall while I believe levelling up throughout an adventure is easier I think you miss out on the roleplay, connections and additional foreshadowing opporunities such a regular exercise training provides.
As always you need to make the rules, methods and SCAP fit you and your party.
Delvesdeep
As far as foreshadowing NPCs or prestige class organizations is concerned I don't see why training rules are especially useful. Roleplaying between adventures does not need require anything but the fun the players and DM have doing it. Moreover I don't understand why you should train AFTER you received experience. In my opinion you train first (gain xp), then receive the benefits of your training (level up).
For instance, one of my player is a Knight of the Chalice. After he told me he wanted to belong to the Order, I added a dead NPC in a cell of Bhal Hamatungn with a mission order from the Cauldron Chapter (namely killing Aushanna). When the PC came back to Cauldron with the NPC body and Aushanna's head, he was told by Jenya how to find the House of the Chapter and introduced to Brother Selim al Qarut, the head of Chapter for Cauldron region. He was then tested and found worthy when he succeeded in another mission on behalf of the Order. He was then recruited and trained as a squire. Now in the middle of "Demonskar Legacy" he received enough XP to become level one Knight of the Chalice. Why should I deprive him of a well-deserved level of a prestige class he already belongs to? I wouldn't do this to him.
Same thing for the Kensai and for the Fiendbinder.
I understand why you appreciate this option. However it's not because one doesn't use it he or she's missing roleplaying opportunities. :))
Bran
Although I believe in the Ding as I have already mentioned above, I did create a scenario for the player of a noble fighter who wanted to take a level of barbarian. Check it out.
As far as foreshadowing NPCs or prestige class organizations is concerned I don't see why training rules are especially useful. Roleplaying between adventures does not need require anything but the fun the players and DM have doing it. Moreover I don't understand why you should train AFTER you received experience. In my opinion you train first (gain xp), then receive the benefits of your training (level up).
I appreciate your stance and method which you and your party are obviously more than happy with. Please don't think by me posting up my method that I am trying to say any other leveling technique is incorrect and my view is the only one that is right. That was not my intention, nor is it ever my intention with any of my posts on this message board. I only ever give my opinion, my understanding and my ideas and that is all. I never try to force what I do in my game upon anyone.
That said though, in terms of my game, I do find the 'excuse' and requirement of training very useful to me. The players have a practical and necessary reason to seek out their organisations and mentors other than when they just feel like it.
This provides further opportunities for me to add in 'extra' foreshadowing, rumours and messages (from me through the mentors) that I may miss out on otherwise. It also encourages addition character involvement in the city and its characters which they may otherwise miss out on.
I think what you did with your Knight character was very good. I did a similiar plot hook with my 'Knight' character and I'm sure that your player will visit this Chapter regularly, but sometimes you may have to lure your player there. This may seem contrived at times whereas if the player was actively seeking out the organisation this would be avoided...IMHO :).
You also mentioned about handicapping players who deserve to increase a level mid adventure by stopping them from recieving their abilities. I don't stop them from getting ALL their abilities and powers just the ones that I logically can not imagine you would recieve without some sort of training.
I award them an increase in established skills and abilities including hit points, spell selection and BAB but not new abilities or feats. Unless you reason that the character has somehow been practising that new feat, ability or power while they adventure (something that doesn't sit well with me because the character would obviously of had other things to worry about than practise during an adventure) then I can not see how they would have acquired the ability.
How would you suddenly know how to do a flurry of blows, gain spell use or any other feat without learning how to from someone. How could you learn a new language unless you were surrounded by it daily or taught. This is the logical that steers my choice.
It is also a great tool to inforce down-time. I have geared most of my adventures to allow for this. The interesting one is going to be between The Demonskar Legacy and The Test of the Smoking Eye.
Another option I considered was that the player elected the new ability, power or fear they would take up next level. Ever downtime their character recieved they would tell me they are practising that new ability/feat/power/spell.
Imagine a wizard practising the lightning bolt spell at 4th level - sending a few sparks from his fingers at one stage, electifying himself at another and burning down small samplings in the forest later on as he attempts to master his future spell. This approach could be used just as readily with other abilities etc and would prove far more logical to me than similiar acquiring the ability etc at of thin air.
The downside of this is that the players have to be far more organised and plan in advance. Also what are the ramifications if the player changes their mind? Do they have to wait until they have time to practise? And going back to my orginal concern - How did they learn the ability in the first place?
Now while its probably dangerous to use any form of logic in a fantasy game I like to believe that D&D has its own form of logic and when a rule or concept just doesn't make sence to me - I change it!
This is why I made the decision to provide some training in my game.
I'm glad to hear what you are doing works in yours!
Delvesdeep
Delvesdeep,
You're gonna have a heck of a time during Foundations of Flame and 13 Cages then. There's basically 1 day, probably less, between the adventures. Not nearly enough time for your system. Also, how do you handle when PCs are supposed to level during the middle of a chapter? Do they drop everything and go "learn" their skills? Or do they just push on, without the newest of their abilities?
Also, how do you handle when PCs are supposed to level during the middle of a chapter? Do they drop everything and go "learn" their skills? Or do they just push on, without the newest of their abilities?
My primary concern exactly.
Besides, it's loads of fun to see the look on the cleric player's face when you inform them that they feel infused with the power of their deity, that new spells have been granted to them for recent deeds performed / showing courage in the face of powerful evil.
Really, though, whatever works for the DM and the group is best. Not all groups will be the same.
Also, how do you handle when PCs are supposed to level during the middle of a chapter? Do they drop everything and go "learn" their skills? Or do they just push on, without the newest of their abilities?My primary concern exactly.
Besides, it's loads of fun to see the look on the cleric player's face when you inform them that they feel infused with the power of their deity, that new spells have been granted to them for recent deeds performed / showing courage in the face of powerful evil.
Really, though, whatever works for the DM and the group is best. Not all groups will be the same.
I should explain that we also use another house rule to slow down level progression which means we usually only level up once a adventure rather than the standard 2 in this AP.
Using the newer editions (3rd/3.5),in the past we found that the players haven't felt as connected to their characters or have built up the same fillers as with early editions. They had far fewer allies and for those they had, they just didn't seem to have the same connection to allies and helpful NPCs as they once did.
Similiarly villians became more 2 Dimensional and they didn't seem to care as much about defeating them as before.
Abilities, powers, feats and spells seem to come thick and fast. Before they had time to get used to their current abilities they were given new ones.
Levels flew by and they were powerful without building up the same background story as they always loved to do in the past. Where in one 2nd edition campaign it took them 8 years to reach 15th level they reached the same milestone in one year!
SO...
We agreed we would slow down the level progression to give us more TIME.
>Time to build up the allies and form connections to them
>Time to gain villians and learn to really despise them
>Time to master their abilities, powers, spells and feats so
when they gained new ones they were excited about it.
>Time for us to develop their character and make them love them
>Time for me to use all the monsters, ideas and treasures I
wanted to
We now reduce all awarded XP by half.
This also has allowed me to insert adventures of my own design 'inbetween' the offical adventure of the SCAP. Most focus on each characters backgrounds in turn but many also relate to another plot I have interweaved and overlapped with the main plot.
It has allowed me to add a lot more latitude and broaden out the campaign rather than zoom through it. IMO the campaign is too good to skim through it - there's just too many great opportunities for adventure hidden within it!
Now in terms of level advancement during the adventures and the problems training may cause well I haven't had to deal with that to date. What I will probably do is just modify the adventure somewhat or leave the decision up to the players. either way their will be plenty of interesting roleplay opportunities :).
Thanks for you interest but as I've already stated this is just how we choice to handle level advancement in MY GAME. What you choose to do in your is you decision and I respect that.
Thanks
Delvesdeep
I have reduced all XP rewards to zero. And then I have the party level at the points that the adventure path expects the party to level.
Delvesdeep: I'd definitely love to be a player in your game. Everything that you've put together here and at therpgenius.com is simply amazing. I can only imagine what your group's sessions are like. I'm sure all that play enjoy your additions to the SCAP.
A couple of years ago, after I'd been away from D&D for nearly two decades, a friend (and professional game designer) asked if I was interested in joining a group he was putting together for a homegrown campaign. I did, and I had a blast. I found that I had really missed the game without being aware of the fact.
Six months into the campaign, my friend rolled up a character and turned the game over to one of the players. We all had high hopes, since this player was the story editor for an Academy Award-winning film, and he had a great feel for incorporating player backgrounds, developing interesting NPCs and plot threads. Well, our hopes were eventually trashed, as the players slowly learned that the PCs were unable to affect the story or their surroundings. The story was pre-determined, and we were just along for the ride. It became a more and more frustrating experience as the DM was unable to make positive changes to his style. The game was eventually brought to a premature end by the players, who all basically quit.
Soon after that game died, three of us joined a Shackled City campaign being started up by another friend (also a professional game designer and one of the creators of the "2d6 Feet in a Random Direction" podcast over at www.2d6feet.com). I was really excited to play in the game, first because the guy running it was a fabulous DM, and second, I wanted to see how a professionally-designed adventure path would play. Sadly, that game fell apart just as we started Drakthar's Way.
It had been a long time since I'd run a game myself, but I decided that doing so would be the best way to see how the Shackled City would play out. I bought the SC hard cover and got my ongoing group excited about playing. Two of the players had been through Chapter 1 with me, but they're good players and can separate player knowledge from character knowledge, so I wasn't worried about it.
Just like Clark Peterson over at Necromancer Games started his Shackled City campaign as an experiment in total 3.5e immersion (http://p105.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm9.showMessage?topicID=310.topi c), I am doing very much the same thing. We're using a minimum of house rules. I've allowed every non-campaign-specific splatbook. I've encouraged min-maxing. (Note: All my players are experienced ROLE players, not ROLL players, so while PCs may be min-maxed, all have rich personalities and backgrounds.)
Leveling up mid-session is all part of trying things out the way they were designed. That way, we can decide what is working for our group and what isn't, then make changes accordingly. We're going to give it several chapters before making changes, but I like gathering opinions of those who are farther along and/or more experienced.
Well, I've rambled on a bit, but I hope the discussion here continues and folks share more of their opinions about what works for their groups.
Thanks Ully and if I probably didn't live on the other side of the earth to you I would be happy for you to come along to my game :). It sounds like you have plenty of experience and ideas yourself.
You certainly know a lot of well credentialed gamers. I haven't heard of the sites you have mentioned. I'll have to take a look.
I think your choose of using the 3rd/3.5 ed rules as written is a logical and sensible choice. I use the rules pretty much as written as well with just a few exceptions including the XP one I just refered to above.
I think it just comes down to you and your players in the end. I've heard so way out house rules and interpretations in the past that I shake my head at in confusion and disbelief but they seemed to work for the group and they had fun using it.
I find it hard sometimes to see things from another perspective, probably much the same as anyone really, but i like to hear others interpretations much the same as you do.
You never know when someones ideas might appeal to you. I know I've pinched my far share of ideas from this board and its posters and the reason I keep coming back to this board is because of the tone.
People genuinely want to help each other here and aren't scared of sharing their ideas. Someone who become aggrovated and belittling on these boards are far and few between.
Anyhow, thankyou once again for you comments and praise and good luck with your game
Delvesdeep