No, the burn doesn't stack. But the elemental deals burn damage on every successful strike in ADDITION to the damage at the beginning of the enemies' turn. The OP didn't include this. So, as you say, 1d4 bludgeoning from the slam + 1d4 fire damage immediately + 1d4 rounds of 1d4 fire damage at the BEGINNING of the victim's turn if the save is failed.I see what you mean now, but you wont be getting 2d4 on top of the fire damage.
You get slam 1d4
fire damage 1d4
burn 1d4The burn damage does not stack.
You still only have 1d4 3 times
The 1d4 I did not bold is for the number of rounds. So it is the same thing I did.
That 1d4 burn is taken on the victims turn.
The 1d4 fire and 1d4 slam is on the elemental's turn.
The 2nd time you get hit with the burn it just increases the duration, but the damage from it is still not taken until the victim's turn.
Huh. So stick to making melee touch attacks and focus on enemies Without manufactured Weapons seems to be the Way to make a fire elemental useful.
Leaving a dot here, since this is pretty interesting.
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I'm pretty sure they do stuff like this because somewhere a lone game designer is getting online and laughing at our threads of general dismay and confusion.
LET THE CONSPIRACY COMMENCE!
"Never assume malice when incompetence will suffice".
Let's not forget that if you are carrying scrolls and other items that can catch fire could possibly be destroyed.
I keep forgetting to add this to my document of rules I don't enforce.
Let's not forget that if you are carrying scrolls and other items that can catch fire could possibly be destroyed.I keep forgetting to add this to my document of rules I don't enforce.
It's not a problem, they're in scroll cases.
Let's not forget that if you are carrying scrolls and other items that can catch fire could possibly be destroyed.
Only if you roll a "1" on your save, and even then, your items also have a save if I remember. It's very unlikely to have scrolls destroyed by a spell without targeting them directly...
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I can't comment on the PC Summoning side of things, but from the DM side, they're harder to kite then their earth elemental counterparts.
Also, the fire elemental's nature makes it easier for it to get through places as its composed of well, flame, as opposed to rock. Fire and air weigh the least of any elementals. Also fire elementals create fire where they pass, which causes other problems (ones that require DM adjudication instead of biblical adherance to 'the rules.')
Also their wind stance lets them dodge ranged attacks easier, and their combat reflexes lets them become a bigger issue for AoO stuff.
The earth elementals are understandably more 'smash into you' momentum bruisers. They aren't too useful at handling crowds (no multiple AoO options) and their only defense against concentrated attacks is really AC/HP.
Fire elementals are better mook fighters then earth elementals. If I had to deal with 20 goblins, I'd pull in fire elementals instead of earth. I'd probably pull in /air/ but lets not open that can of works.
Some posters have mentioned the burn stacking, or rather the lack thereof. While, true you are missing the point of a fire elemental, especially against multiple opponents.
Since I mostly GM I think of baddies from a GM perspective, not a player perspective.
The key to the fire elemental is versus multiple opponents, if it is strong enough to survive -- or multiple elementals against multiple opponents.
You can't think of the elementals and compare them power for power like that. They are situational.
In short, when running fire elementals as a player or a GM, don't worry about Burn not stacking. Catch all of your opponents on fire. While it may not stack on one, give every enemy a chance to catch fire.
Fire elementals are a terrifying opponent if they are in an environment that burns, especially one with innocent bystanders.
They are built around hit and run tactics and wouldn't want to go toe to toe immediately with an adventuring group, instead they'll destroy the locale you're fighting in (exploiting environmental effects like extreme heat, smoke, and forest fires) and look to attack isolated and weakened enemies (perhaps one that is choking and coughing due to smoke after failing one or more fort saves).
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What it boils down to is this.
People are looking at earth elementals and going 'Why does an army need submachine guns when they have sniper rifles.' Or for a more RPG flair 'Why do I need a dagger when I have a sword.'
I'm just waiting for some fellow with like some mathematical chart to show up and I am so, so glad this is in general discussions where we can state stuff like 'There's more to the situation then the rules.'
I am fine with the eart elemental is standard warfare issue the other elemental types are more for special occasions but the fire elemental has it's place for sure.
Flamethrowers. Duh. ;D
Yes?
I find Fire Elementals useful pretty much only when I need something set on fire. Which happens surprisingly often...
A fire elemental has a use or three I didn't see mentioned.
They can finish off trolls and similar regeneration (fire) creatures. Quite handy at the low level play when a troll or two is a huge threat. (The little fiery buggers have high speed and mobility, so they can endlessly prance about incinerating such foes for you with little consequence.)
Self-propelled campfires. The rogue just stole the combustible dooflichie from a foe? Toss it to the fire elemental. Plenty of additional uses for the creative.
Self-propelled light sources. If they don't shed light, they should be promptly house-ruled to do so.
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Burn doesn't seem all that different than bleed so I would stack it, but if you wouldn't, the elemental might hit 5 different enemies, the damage is the same, and if I am sending it after mooks and I know the burn won't stack, I'll try to set as many on fire as I can - and I think a fire elemental would too, it's sort-of its thing.
Burne and Bleed effects, AFAIK effects don't stack.
About the OP question, remember that burn affect people hitting the elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks.
So you get a decent defensive ability as long as you are operating against creatures that only have natural weapons.
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I'm sure floods, tsunamis, etc... have killed more people than fires or earthquakes. What does any of this have to do with the thread topic, though?Orcs have probably killed more people than the Tarrasque because there are so many more of them. Compare the number of tropical storms every year to the number of volcanic eruptions. Then factor in that most coastlines are much more densely populated than the vicinities of most volcanoes (indeed I believe than all volcanoes that aren't also on coastlines)
Look population density in the Naples area, look the Vesuvius location. Want to pound good sense into people heads. Leave in frustration.
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Fire elementals are supposed to spread around the burning. That they are doing damage against multiple opponents at a time. Spring attack from baddie to baddie, making things burn. If I want a Tank-and-spank elemental, then I would go Earth.
Fire elementals need a breath weapon... which wouldn't be out of place.
Then again, fire elementals are best used as fast ground units.
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At this point I'm mostly piling in to agree with points others have raised before.
Fire Elementals are notably more mobile. This doesn't matter in tightly confined stone hallways where the Earth Elemental can just burrow around, but it sure is nice in field battles. Compare the Small Fire Elemental to the Hyena and suddenly you see one of its niches. Now, the Hyena is slightly better at fighting than the Small Fire Elemental is... but the Elemental can be given precise commands in Ignan language; even Fiendish and Celestial Hyenas remain Intelligence 2 with no language in Pathfinder.
Their value against certain regenerating targets such as Trolls has also been mentioned.
Most GMs will let you use them to quickly start small fires in an area too. That may not have an immediate effect, but give it a little time and the party's enemies will have to react to this one way or another.
It's definitely true that the Earth Elemental is superior to the Fire Elemental in straight-up brawls of equal numbers, at least when we're looking at the smaller-sized Elementals. Nonetheless, Fire Elementals have their uses. They are a specialized tool compared to the Earth Elemental's brawler. Smart players can take advantage of this... it's why even things like the Grig with no Fiddle Ability, granted by the new Summon Good Monster feat, are surprisingly nice in specific situations despite doing laughable damage.
Larger fire elementals are more attractive since the burn damage scales with their size as well. The burn DC also increases if you have Augment Summoning (it's Constitution based so the DC is +2 higher with this feat, making it harder to save against).
In general elementals do mediocre damage against enemies with any form of damage reduction (including DR/magic) due to being natural weapon attackers, but the burn damage is energy damage and thus bypasses all DR. They also punish creatures for hitting them which makes them good meat shields (they often have very high CMD due to having both an excellent Strength AND Dexterity, take up nice space, have excellent crowd control with combat reflexes, and are mobile).
For example, if you summon a large fire elemental to do battle with a hydra, the hydra is basically screwed. By merely large size they have DR 5/-, and inflict burn damage on every single unarmed attack made against them (including gauntlet attacks and natural weapons).
Don't discount spring attack either...
It's true. Fighter elementals have a very impressive speed and by even the CR 5 versions have both a strong battlefield presence in their size, reach, and combat reflexes (it's also when their burn begins getting pretty decent at 1d8+2+1d8 plus change to ignite and 1d8 damage to unarmed attackers). This basically makes them a lockdown fighter that's on call. Moving past them is a pain (they have very high CMD for their CRs) and then on their turns they can spring attack and slap people for damage and potentially ignite them (or even preform combat maneuvers by using their reach). Grappling a fire elemental is also something that is rarely desirable (and thus being grappled by one is also very much undesirable).
EDIT: Scratch that. The CR 7 version has combat reflexes, the CR 5 version doesn't. Though the CR 5 version still has all the other things that make them cool for control (DR 5/-, burn, reach, high CMD relative to CR, multiple attacks, spring attack, etc).
An additional note of interest is that a fire-elemental is also very light, which makes them suitable for fighting in some strange environments, and as a good candidate for a telekinesis fastball-special (that is where you use the telekinesis spell to hurl a martial creature into another creature, placing the victim at ground-zero of the creature's reach and let the thrown creature begin pummeling on its turn).
Yup, Fire Elementals are very light and cannot fly. My wizard exploited those two facts quite well very recently against an elder fire elemental with Telekinesis. "The sky's the limit," as they say. Or was it, "what goes up must come down"? :D