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And for the ventriloquism thing, the verbal component is probably intended to be the speech you have the spell redirect. Making a silent version of it would basically transmit...nada.
I mean, its kind of obvious you talk into a rolled up tube for Pete's sake.
I'd still argue that if battle gets started, the level of concern in other areas will be more interested in the clash of blade on blade. And if the mage is tossing fireballs or magic missiles, well..
I do remember a feat back in 3.5, maybe in a 3rd party that actually let you disguise spellcasting as another form of talk or singing though. Like you don't notice the crazy preacher prosletyzing is actually casting blesses on his followers until the crap hits the fan or a bard putting debuffs on people just by playing music.
@Spool : except it isn't. The verbal component is prononced with before the spell has an effect (because it is during casting). And you can't make verbal components come from your ventriloquism spell, as you must pronounce it yourself (contrary to 2nd edition of the spell, if I recall).
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@Others : there is no mention of loud or whispers in the rules. It is as the DM wants to interpret it. As a DM, I would probably using the same way as you. However, if a player points out that verbal component is right in regards for the rules, he will be right (because the verbal is not defined as being loud or not).
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@Concerning Silent spell : this feat is used to delete the verbal component entirely. You can cast in a silence spell, or effectively while being invisible without being detected with an easy perception skill checks, ...
Whispers can be heard (and even more the levels go on), but not a silent spell.
I do remember a feat back in 3.5, maybe in a 3rd party that actually let you disguise spellcasting as another form of talk or singing though. Like you don't notice the crazy preacher prosletyzing is actually casting blesses on his followers until the crap hits the fan or a bard putting debuffs on people just by playing music.
In Pathfinder, that feat is called Spellsong (from Ultimate Magic, IIRC) and it is exquisite.
If they wanted it to be loud they'd have said loud. Strong isn't loud.
A strong, clear argument. Not a loud argument. A strong one. A good one.
A strong voice. Not a loud voice. A good voice, a clear voice. Not mumbling half under your breath in hopes no one can hear you but a good strong voice.
I'm reminded of talking to my grandfather. Now he's not deaf but he is old and when I talk to him I have to 1) slow down 2) be clear and 3) enunciate my words clearly.
If you take "strong" to mean "loud" then you are adding to the required rules. It shouldn't be anymore loud than two people talking together.
That being said-
I think you Can't whisper into the palm of your hand hoping no one notices.
I think you Can't garble underwater hoping the words work.
You can't be gagged or otherwise prevented from moving your jaw and making the sounds in a clear manner. (such as being strangled or garrotted, if a creature/rule allows for it).
-S
Fair enough, Selgard.
I'm not arguing for "loud" either.
I think strong, clear voice means no whispering, but you don't need to shout either.
I'm in the DC 0 camp.
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I think you Can't whisper into the palm of your hand hoping no one notices.
In the rules, you can. You only need to pronounce the component, not to do it loud. I linked a video on youtube with a wizard that use verbal component strongly and clearly but whispering. It's correct by the rules of pathfinder.
I think you Can't garble underwater hoping the words work.
Underwater, you are probably not able to speak in a strong voice (it's not clear, you can't pronounce it right), and by such, I would probably use it your way.
That is not precised in Environment rules however, so you can interpret it otherwise (the character pronounce it correctly, but the water does not conduct it right, and by such, only the concentration check is required).
I mean, even the wizard you take as examples (Harry Potter comes to my mind) CAN use verbal component while underwater.
You can't be gagged or otherwise prevented from moving your jaw and making the sounds in a clear manner. (such as being strangled or garrotted, if a creature/rule allows for it).
That's actually written in the rules, you don't have to interpret to make it work that way.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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@Concerning Silent spell : this feat is used to delete the verbal component entirely. You can cast in a silence spell, or effectively while being invisible without being detected with an easy perception skill checks, ...Whispers can be heard (and even more the levels go on), but not a silent spell.
Silent Spell is a lame feat no matter what, and my original comment is somewhat tongue in cheek.
As mentioned previously, I agree with the majority in this thread who treat the verbal components in spellcasting as being the same as talking for purposes of Perception checks. I wouldn't walk from a DM who wanted to rule that whispering was sufficient, but I think it's a poor interpretation that serves to reduce one of the few impediments to pre-combat buffing (along with making a bad feat even worse).
That's why I precised the fact that you can also deal with underwater spellcasting as written, with only a concentration check ^^
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Well yeah, you can still talk underwater. Just watch any comedy with a 'hillarious pool scene.' The words are what matter, not that it sounds like whalesong.
You can shout and such, the issue though is it makes holding breath harder. And I mean that in a real life 'I require oxygen' way and not a 'make fortitude save' way.
Given that the spells can be cast within what's essentially 6 seconds, I don't think the spells require you to intone the preamble of the constitution, but rather proclaiming some quick gobbledy-gook.
Its important to note that deafness bolloxes you up, meaning there's something to the way you enunciate the words. If you just spent all the time whispering them, it'd have a different sound probably due to the whole 'bone transmits sound' thing.
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The FAQ on the Witch's Cackle came out after this thread, so these responses all predate that clarification. That answer makes it pretty clear that the Developers did indeed intend that "strong" and/or "firm" refer to volume, at least to some degree.
Witch, Cackle Hex: Does my character literally have to cackle madly when I use this hex, or is that just flavor text?
Your character actually has to cackle—probably in a strong voice, akin to the volume and clarity necessary for verbal spell components.